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Post by neighbour on Apr 29, 2023 23:15:31 GMT -5
I am a member, 3rd generation "born and raised" as one might say. By "not representative" I mean I realize I do not represent a typical member, so do not take my perspective to be representative of the norm. Oh ok. Thanks for clarifying. So many people on here these days I’m not familiar with. Hard to get a read. I've been lurking on this forum for 15-20 years but joined very recently to post a factual clarification. Evidently I couldn't stop at just one post  I try to be cognizant of how our doctrine and lifestyle appears to a casual onlooker, so a lot of what I post may seem like I too am an onlooker, but that's just because I'm trying to convey information from that perspective. |
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Post by neighbour on Apr 29, 2023 23:23:46 GMT -5
Not that I've ever heard, in whichever country they are in they hoist that flag at events and homes. Yup, Canadian and American flags both flown at my local conventions as we have lots of cross-border visitors. |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 23:27:38 GMT -5
The mafia like structure is the church accounting structure of the 2x2 way. Openness and transparency is done with a church that designates itself as a church. 2x2s don’t designate as a non profit or a church. The church pays no taxes, the salaried ministers pay no taxes and the money is laundered to prevent any sort of idea that the church or ministers owe any taxes. The mafia structure also works for the way crimes are committed. The membership and hierarchy is not recorded anywhere legit, they do have address books of friends and annual worker lists in each state or area. There is no "salary" they get random amounts at random times from various individuals... Just like sales people |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2023 23:28:31 GMT -5
There is no "salary" they get random amounts at random times from various individuals... Just like sales people You are trying too hard... |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 23:35:58 GMT -5
You are trying too hard... Taxes are required to be paid no matter how you define income. It’s just a matter if you want to be honest or not |
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Post by neighbour on Apr 29, 2023 23:41:54 GMT -5
You are trying too hard... Taxes are required to be paid no matter how you define income. It’s just a matter if you want to be honest or not Not that it has anything to do with the workers' personal income tax, but as per Willis Propp's court testimony in the 80s, capital gains tax is paid by the elders holding money in trust. |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 23:43:32 GMT -5
Taxes are required to be paid no matter how you define income. It’s just a matter if you want to be honest or not Not that it has anything to do with the workers' personal income tax, but as per Willis Propp's court testimony in the 80s, capital gains tax is paid by the elders holding money in trust. |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 23:44:03 GMT -5
Taxes are required to be paid no matter how you define income. It’s just a matter if you want to be honest or not Not that it has anything to do with the workers' personal income tax, but as per Willis Propp's court testimony in the 80s, capital gains tax is paid by the elders holding money in trust. How is capital gains determined if records are not kept? |
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Post by neighbour on Apr 29, 2023 23:48:23 GMT -5
Not that it has anything to do with the workers' personal income tax, but as per Willis Propp's court testimony in the 80s, capital gains tax is paid by the elders holding money in trust. How is capital gains determined if records are not kept? The elders hold money in trust in their own names. This is typical for trusts, the trustee has to make sure the tax is paid. |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 23:53:25 GMT -5
How is capital gains determined if records are not kept? The elders hold money in trust in their own names. This is typical for trusts, the trustee has to make sure the tax is paid. So do you believe all of the gains are taxed? |
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Post by neighbour on Apr 29, 2023 23:54:33 GMT -5
The elders hold money in trust in their own names. This is typical for trusts, the trustee has to make sure the tax is paid. So do you believe all of the gains are taxed? I have no idea, I am referencing court testimony from 35 years ago. But generally yes, registered trusts must have the correct tax paid annually. |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 23:56:48 GMT -5
So do you believe all of the gains are taxed? I have no idea, I am referencing court testimony from 35 years ago. If all the money is traceable through the elder, then the victims of CSA need to sue that trust/elder entity in each state because they all are connected. “ Trusts are more complex to use than corporations, but they are less regulated. The private nature of trusts makes them attractive to money launderers. Secrecy and anonymity rules help conceal the identity of the true owner or beneficiary of trust assets.” sites.google.com/site/intmoneylaunder/money-laundering-methods/layering-techniques/trusts# |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 0:08:51 GMT -5
I have no idea, I am referencing court testimony from 35 years ago. If all the money is traceable through the elder, then the victims of CSA need to sue that trust/elder entity in each state because they all are connected. “ Trusts are more complex to use than corporations, but they are less regulated. The private nature of trusts makes them attractive to money launderers. Secrecy and anonymity rules help conceal the identity of the true owner or beneficiary of trust assets.” sites.google.com/site/intmoneylaunder/money-laundering-methods/layering-techniques/trusts#I thought I hear many moons ago trusts cannot be sued? |
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Post by neighbour on Apr 30, 2023 0:14:25 GMT -5
If all the money is traceable through the elder, then the victims of CSA need to sue that trust/elder entity in each state because they all are connected. “ Trusts are more complex to use than corporations, but they are less regulated. The private nature of trusts makes them attractive to money launderers. Secrecy and anonymity rules help conceal the identity of the true owner or beneficiary of trust assets.” sites.google.com/site/intmoneylaunder/money-laundering-methods/layering-techniques/trusts#I thought I hear many moons ago trusts cannot be sued? Correct. You can sue the trustee, but generally only for failure to administer it correctly. |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 30, 2023 0:14:28 GMT -5
If all the money is traceable through the elder, then the victims of CSA need to sue that trust/elder entity in each state because they all are connected. “ Trusts are more complex to use than corporations, but they are less regulated. The private nature of trusts makes them attractive to money launderers. Secrecy and anonymity rules help conceal the identity of the true owner or beneficiary of trust assets.” sites.google.com/site/intmoneylaunder/money-laundering-methods/layering-techniques/trusts#I thought I hear many moons ago trusts cannot be sued? You end up suing the trustee/elder to get to the trust. |
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Post by snow on Apr 30, 2023 12:54:35 GMT -5
Ok I get that - but the implications are huge. Do you realize that people actually believe it is actually the truth? -( or maybe you do). It is the basis to be very exclusionary. Freaks me out. I spent years believing I knew the truth and others didn’t. Messed with my mind. Maybe I think too much. Of course I realize people believe it to be actually the truth, it's foundational doctrine that the system of workers, friends, and meetings is the one true way of Jesus. Without that dogma the system would cease to exist. I was mainly making a dig at us using lingo, and not thinking too hard. I hope you can tell that I'm not a representative "one of the friends", I'd have "wrong doctrine" if found out. Sort of off topic, but I find a lot of discussion on here like the old man yelling at a cloud. I don't see the system changing significantly, people will just leave. It's like expecting the JWs to make a different doctrine. Makes sense that they are similar. Irvine and the founder of the JW's knew each other and would get together and talk. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 20:37:24 GMT -5
The biggest difference is the disinterest in politicians, and lack of obvious available money to a lawyer. This has to be the reason we don’t hear about civil settlements.
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Post by neighbour on May 1, 2023 20:46:33 GMT -5
The biggest difference is the disinterest in politicians, and lack of obvious available money to a lawyer. This has to be the reason we don’t hear about civil settlements. Ironically, considering "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent." |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 21:21:30 GMT -5
The biggest difference is the disinterest in politicians, and lack of obvious available money to a lawyer. This has to be the reason we don’t hear about civil settlements. Ironically, considering "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent." There is that. Although settling out of court for CSA won't be widely accepted. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 21:26:58 GMT -5
Ironically, considering "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent." There is that. Although settling out of court for CSA won't be widely accepted. This is a very good point Wally, Which people won’t accept this? |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 21:50:12 GMT -5
There is that. Although settling out of court for CSA won't be widely accepted. This is a very good point Wally, Which people won’t accept this? Victims I would think... |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 21:52:36 GMT -5
This is a very good point Wally, Which people won’t accept this? Victims I would think... I think they would settle if it causes the 2x2s to lose all their money in all their trusts and to restructure as a legal church with accounting transparency. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 21:55:25 GMT -5
I think they would settle if it causes the 2x2s to lose all their money in all their trusts and to restructure as a legal church with accounting transparency. Is money really the objective? |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 22:11:43 GMT -5
I think they would settle if it causes the 2x2s to lose all their money in all their trusts and to restructure as a legal church with accounting transparency. Is money really the objective? I think it would be the object if it causes a restructuring, and if the money was donated to a victims of SA and CSA fund. |
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Post by deepdeep on May 1, 2023 22:14:19 GMT -5
I think they would settle if it causes the 2x2s to lose all their money in all their trusts and to restructure as a legal church with accounting transparency. Is money really the objective? Now that is a question worth asking! It seems obvious (and proveable) that the F&W (still don't know what to call them) have something to account for on the issue of CSA. The financial stuff that I've seen described on here is definitely non standard.... But probably non actionable from a legal standpoint. Let's pretend that the authorities are at least somewhat functional and the CSA perpetrators are dealt with appropriately in the near term but the "organization" (if you can call it that) just keeps on doing it's thing with thier preachers living with the people and having thier gatherings... What then? Does anybody care at that point? |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 22:26:41 GMT -5
Take what simpleton posted with a grain of salt ! He was banned from here and nearly every other site for a reason. What he has said here about Australia is false. Just finding this out- sorry. This conspiracy theorist had a good point in the money structure being similar to mafia than a church. They did have some similarities. I think it's kind of interesting to consider, but mostly because I cannot make heads more tails of it. Most workers except the top overseers probably aren't really aware of how it works, or whether there are components which skirt the legal boundaries. They know that they receive money throughout the year, and anything left over (if anything) is given to the overseer at years end. I've heard of some cases where the workers actually donated what was surplus to a charity even - which is a good thing. They get some "start out " cash at the beginning of the "workers calendar year" from what I'm aware. Point is, the average worker doesn't really have a lot, but has plenty if needed and stays with generous people who are often glad to help. It's not there where the issue is, imo. The larger accounts and how they're maintained might be a little dodgy, but it's not really my business. From what I'm aware, the overseers don't have their names on the accounts, but rather one or two friends in each field maintain them. So logically, simpleton's premise that seeking monetary compensation from an individual for damages relating to CSA, or any other criminal action for that matter, would not be fruitful. And from the "organization" that isn't an organization with no funds to trace - also difficult. I'm really not sure what the solution is, besides ex members and sympathetic members setting up our pairing with nonprofits (as is being done) to provide support. Justice might have to wait till future lives. |
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Post by Dan on May 1, 2023 22:48:14 GMT -5
Is money really the objective? Now that is a question worth asking! It seems obvious (and proveable) that the F&W (still don't know what to call them) have something to account for on the issue of CSA. The financial stuff that I've seen described on here is definitely non standard.... But probably non actionable from a legal standpoint. Let's pretend that the authorities are at least somewhat functional and the CSA perpetrators are dealt with appropriately in the near term but the "organization" (if you can call it that) just keeps on doing it's thing with thier preachers living with the people and having thier gatherings... What then? Does anybody care at that point?
Churches in the United States, as they are non-profit organizations, are exempt from paying tax which includes capital gains tax. Putting an asset in an irrevocable trust the correct way means it's no longer yours. In the event that you are sued, your trust's assets are generally safe.
I don't see any real change coming for the way the ministry is set-up and functions. So CSA has to be addressed within the existing system. They need some hard set rules such as; "No single Worker can be left along with children". That simple rule would assure the safety of children and protect Workers from any false accusations.. Workers will continue to stay with friends (no choice), that imo isn't a problem. The problem is the lone wolf that finds an opportunity to molest a child. Its an easy fix if no single Worker is allowed to stay in a home alone with children.. Problem solved.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 2, 2023 0:29:21 GMT -5
I think they would settle if it causes the 2x2s to lose all their money in all their trusts and to restructure as a legal church with accounting transparency. Is money really the objective? As I kept banking on to Internationalstudies, justice must be done, but to a victim, justice must also be seen to have been done. Money doesn't provide closure, but it can be part of a package.
The church has legal obligations, and moral obligations.
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