rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 22, 2023 15:32:52 GMT -5
I finished the book Pagan Christianity this morning. It was definitely interesting. The author, Frank Viola definitely looks upon the church through the lens of the New Testament. His ideas on the Church, baptism, workers, etc are almost identical to the early days, before the Living Witness doctrine took hold. The author looks upon workers (and he uses that term) as Church planters. In the section Tithing and Clergy Salaries (he’s against both) he says, “Giving in the NT was according to one’s ability. Christians gave to help other believers as well as to support apostolic workers enabling them to travel and plant churches.” He notes various passages to show this, such as 1 Corinthians 9:1-14. He also delegates workers to the status of evangelists to the lost. I think he’s corrects, & that the 2x2s have lost their zeal of evangelism, having the workers minister almost exclusively to the friends. In the 2x2s the workers have taken on the role of Pastor, and that was not the role of workers in the New Testament. The pastoring in the New Testament was done by the members of the individual house meetings, and rarely by a worker. One of the other things that struck me was this: his view of ‘becoming a Christian’ is very similar to the primitive church & the early days of the Cooneyites. He’s not a fan of the ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ or if the term ‘Personal Savior.’ He says that biblically, salvation (or entrance into the Body of Christ) comes by public profession accompanied by water baptism. He’s critical of how most denominations wait often for years to baptize a believer. The early Cooneyites practiced biblical conversion by baptizing new believers almost immediately, making it a very public (and controversial) event. I find it refreshing that there are Christians today who are willing to look at the scriptures anew, and who are willing to shake things up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 16:06:00 GMT -5
I finished the book Pagan Christianity this morning. It was definitely interesting. The author, Frank Viola definitely looks upon the church through the lens of the New Testament. His ideas on the Church, baptism, workers, etc are almost identical to the early days, before the Living Witness doctrine took hold. The author looks upon workers (and he uses that term) as Church planters. In the section Tithing and Clergy Salaries (he’s against both) he says, “Giving in the NT was according to one’s ability. Christians gave to help other believers as well as to support apostolic workers enabling them to travel and plant churches.” He notes various passages to show this, such as 1 Corinthians 9:1-14. He also delegates workers to the status of evangelists to the lost. I think he’s corrects, & that the 2x2s have lost their zeal of evangelism, having the workers minister almost exclusively to the friends. In the 2x2s the workers have taken on the role of Pastor, and that was not the role of workers in the New Testament. The pastoring in the New Testament was done by the members of the individual house meetings, and rarely by a worker. One of the other things that struck me was this: his view of ‘becoming a Christian’ is very similar to the primitive church & the early days of the Cooneyites. He’s not a fan of the ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ or if the term ‘Personal Savior.’ He says that biblically, salvation (or entrance into the Body of Christ) comes by public profession accompanied by water baptism. He’s critical of how most denominations wait often for years to baptize a believer. The early Cooneyites practiced biblical conversion by baptizing new believers almost immediately, making it a very public (and controversial) event. I find it refreshing that there are Christians today who are willing to look at the scriptures anew, and who are willing to shake things up. About late baptism I go hmmmm, that's not what happened in the 1st century...but there are a couple reasons that it might be wise to wait...
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 22, 2023 16:53:38 GMT -5
I finished the book Pagan Christianity this morning. It was definitely interesting. The author, Frank Viola definitely looks upon the church through the lens of the New Testament. His ideas on the Church, baptism, workers, etc are almost identical to the early days, before the Living Witness doctrine took hold. The author looks upon workers (and he uses that term) as Church planters. In the section Tithing and Clergy Salaries (he’s against both) he says, “Giving in the NT was according to one’s ability. Christians gave to help other believers as well as to support apostolic workers enabling them to travel and plant churches.” He notes various passages to show this, such as 1 Corinthians 9:1-14. He also delegates workers to the status of evangelists to the lost. I think he’s corrects, & that the 2x2s have lost their zeal of evangelism, having the workers minister almost exclusively to the friends. In the 2x2s the workers have taken on the role of Pastor, and that was not the role of workers in the New Testament. The pastoring in the New Testament was done by the members of the individual house meetings, and rarely by a worker. One of the other things that struck me was this: his view of ‘becoming a Christian’ is very similar to the primitive church & the early days of the Cooneyites. He’s not a fan of the ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ or if the term ‘Personal Savior.’ He says that biblically, salvation (or entrance into the Body of Christ) comes by public profession accompanied by water baptism. He’s critical of how most denominations wait often for years to baptize a believer. The early Cooneyites practiced biblical conversion by baptizing new believers almost immediately, making it a very public (and controversial) event. I find it refreshing that there are Christians today who are willing to look at the scriptures anew, and who are willing to shake things up. About late baptism I go hmmmm, that's not what happened in the 1st century...but there are a couple reasons that it might be wise to wait... Is it just locally, or do you think it’s a widespread habit if the friends to put off baptism? I know it hasn’t always been this way. But, this late baptism thing started before 1981 as baptism/rebaptism wasn’t a major issue when I first professed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 17:19:52 GMT -5
About late baptism I go hmmmm, that's not what happened in the 1st century...but there are a couple reasons that it might be wise to wait... Is it just locally, or do you think it’s a widespread habit if the friends to put off baptism? I know it hasn’t always been this way. But, this late baptism thing started before 1981 as baptism/rebaptism wasn’t a major issue when I first professed. Not sure, in recent times I can only say what I've observed in the PNW, California, Arizona and Montana. So, its still late there... For some reason in 1979 they didn't make mom rebaptise. RR and TM were our workers at the time, they told her to go ahead and take the emblems. Interesting...
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Post by Grant on Feb 22, 2023 17:24:11 GMT -5
About late baptism I go hmmmm, that's not what happened in the 1st century...but there are a couple reasons that it might be wise to wait... Is it just locally, or do you think it’s a widespread habit if the friends to put off baptism? I know it hasn’t always been this way. But, this late baptism thing started before 1981 as baptism/rebaptism wasn’t a major issue when I first professed. Baptism usually takes place once a year at convention which is a long wait for some.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2023 19:15:29 GMT -5
Is it just locally, or do you think it’s a widespread habit if the friends to put off baptism? I know it hasn’t always been this way. But, this late baptism thing started before 1981 as baptism/rebaptism wasn’t a major issue when I first professed. Baptism usually takes place once a year at convention which is a long wait for some. Mine in 2007 was in July. Just a day or so After I heard of My @#$%^ fathers death. I professed on the last Sunday of '99 or the first Sunday of 2000. I have no idea why I can't remember that. Anyway it was a seven year wait.
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 22, 2023 20:44:29 GMT -5
Baptism usually takes place once a year at convention which is a long wait for some. Mine in 2007 was in July. Just a day or so After I heard of My @#$%^ fathers death. I professed on the last Sunday of '99 or the first Sunday of 2000. I have no idea why I can't remember that. Anyway it was a seven year wait. Yes, 7 years is quite a time from professing and being baptized. I think that’s becoming more common.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2023 23:40:57 GMT -5
Mine in 2007 was in July. Just a day or so After I heard of My @#$%^ fathers death. I professed on the last Sunday of '99 or the first Sunday of 2000. I have no idea why I can't remember that. Anyway it was a seven year wait. Yes, 7 years is quite a time from professing and being baptized. I think that’s becoming more common. They're making people wait until they have proven themselves worthy to be baptized. I know at least one young man was told he couldn't be baptized because he was wearing facial hair. I've also know of a baptism being cancelled because someone "unworthy" wanted to be baptized. It's a control mechanism.
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 23, 2023 10:49:17 GMT -5
Yes, 7 years is quite a time from professing and being baptized. I think that’s becoming more common. They're making people wait until they have proven themselves worthy to be baptized. I know at least one young man was told he couldn't be baptized because he was wearing facial hair. I've also know of a baptism being cancelled because someone "unworthy" wanted to be baptized. It's a control mechanism. You could be right about this. If it’s necessary to prove yourself worthy of baptism, then the whole purpose of baptism is made null & void. This is part of the problem with separating professing from baptism: it seems to make salvation a process. If professing is the public act of saying you want to follow Jesus, then what is the purpose of baptism? I think that the early workers had it right, and that this Frank Viola character has it right too. Professing & baptism go hand in hand. No one can prove themselves before God. The entire reason for professing & baptism is because we are unworthy, & can’t make ourselves worthy.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 23, 2023 14:13:14 GMT -5
They're making people wait until they have proven themselves worthy to be baptized. I know at least one young man was told he couldn't be baptized because he was wearing facial hair. I've also know of a baptism being cancelled because someone "unworthy" wanted to be baptized. It's a control mechanism. You could be right about this. If it’s necessary to prove yourself worthy of baptism, then the whole purpose of baptism is made null & void. This is part of the problem with separating professing from baptism: it seems to make salvation a process. If professing is the public act of saying you want to follow Jesus, then what is the purpose of baptism? I think that the early workers had it right, and that this Frank Viola character has it right too. Professing & baptism go hand in hand. No one can prove themselves before God. The entire reason for professing & baptism is because we are unworthy, & can’t make ourselves worthy. An elderly lady that we loved dearly told us that she was baptized wearing beads and lipstick. It was some time later that she determined that it wasn't part of 2x2 fashion. But that was a long time ago. I also remember one convention where the gospel meeting wasn't "tested". Reportedly it was because the workers knew there was a person (or couple) they were afraid might stand up. I also know two people who stood up in meetings to profess, and were told after the meeting that the meeting wasn't tested for them. One was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let that person profess.
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 23, 2023 15:59:30 GMT -5
You could be right about this. If it’s necessary to prove yourself worthy of baptism, then the whole purpose of baptism is made null & void. This is part of the problem with separating professing from baptism: it seems to make salvation a process. If professing is the public act of saying you want to follow Jesus, then what is the purpose of baptism? I think that the early workers had it right, and that this Frank Viola character has it right too. Professing & baptism go hand in hand. No one can prove themselves before God. The entire reason for professing & baptism is because we are unworthy, & can’t make ourselves worthy. An elderly lady that we loved dearly told us that she was baptized wearing beads and lipstick. It was some time later that she determined that it wasn't part of 2x2 fashion. But that was a long time ago. I also remember one convention where the gospel meeting wasn't "tested". Reportedly it was because the workers knew there was a person (or couple) they were afraid might stand up. I also know two people who stood up in meetings to profess, and were told after the meeting that the meeting wasn't tested for them. One was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let that person profess. Oh my Gawsh! Telling someone that the testing was not for them is cruel, if not wicked. ….
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 23, 2023 16:28:01 GMT -5
In the book, Mr. Viola speaks of Jesus as being a Revolutionary, & he compares baptism as being the time that we are transferred from the kingdoms of this world & into the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of the world includes Politics, Institutional churches (Babylon), the education system, the entertainment industry (Hollywood, Bollywood, etc)… When I first professed I actually had a clear understanding of this concept, although I related this ‘abandonment of the kingdom of the world’ to professing only, & gave baptism no thought at the time. This is also one of the reasons I avoid politics & discussing politics (like on TMB). If Jesus’ Kingdom isn’t if this world, as he said, then a Christian’s citizenship isn’t if this world either. . The abandonment of politics makes a lot of sense to me, and always has. When I first met the friends the ones I was closest to had no involvement in politics. I assumed (but could have wrong) that the friends in general weren’t involved in politics at that time. I think this noninvolvement in politics is another thing the 2x2s are getting away from. Here’s a link to a talk by Mr. Viola on baptism, and how, when properly understood, it’s a revolutionary concept. m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSpkU_cafBM
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 17:11:13 GMT -5
In the book, Mr. Viola speaks of Jesus as being a Revolutionary, & he compares baptism as being the time that we are transferred from the kingdoms of this world & into the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of the world includes Politics, Institutional churches (Babylon), the entertainment industry (Hollywood, Bollywood, etc)… When I first professed I actually had a clear understanding of this concept, although I related this ‘abandonment of the kingdom of the world’ to professing only, & gave baptism no thought at the time. This is also one of the reasons I avoid politics & discussing politics (like on TMB). If Jesus’ Kingdom isn’t if this world, as he said, then a Christian’s citizenship isn’t if this world either. . The abandonment of politics makes a lot of sense to me, and always has. When I first met the friends the ones I was closest to had no involvement in politics. I assumed (but could have wrong) that the friends in general weren’t involved in politics at that time. I think this noninvolvement in politics is another thing the 2x2s are getting away from. Here’s a link to a talk by Mr. Viola on baptism, and how, when properly understood, it’s a revolutionary concept. m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSpkU_cafBMIt's probably best to not be involved in politics as it doesn't generally bring any peace. But what's happening now is politics is becoming involved in everything now, so folks don't have much choice but to respond to it or it will run them over.
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 23, 2023 17:31:53 GMT -5
In the book, Mr. Viola speaks of Jesus as being a Revolutionary, & he compares baptism as being the time that we are transferred from the kingdoms of this world & into the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of the world includes Politics, Institutional churches (Babylon), the entertainment industry (Hollywood, Bollywood, etc)… When I first professed I actually had a clear understanding of this concept, although I related this ‘abandonment of the kingdom of the world’ to professing only, & gave baptism no thought at the time. This is also one of the reasons I avoid politics & discussing politics (like on TMB). If Jesus’ Kingdom isn’t if this world, as he said, then a Christian’s citizenship isn’t if this world either. . The abandonment of politics makes a lot of sense to me, and always has. When I first met the friends the ones I was closest to had no involvement in politics. I assumed (but could have wrong) that the friends in general weren’t involved in politics at that time. I think this noninvolvement in politics is another thing the 2x2s are getting away from. Here’s a link to a talk by Mr. Viola on baptism, and how, when properly understood, it’s a revolutionary concept. m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSpkU_cafBMIt's probably best to not be involved in politics as it doesn't generally bring any peace. But what's happening now is politics is becoming involved in everything now, so folks don't have much choice but to respond to it or it will run them over. I can see where you’re coming from. For me, it’s wise to keep my mouth shut when it comes to politics. Honestly, I know little about the subject, being willfully ignorant in the subject, so I’m really not that qualified to speak on most political subjects anyways. When politics affect me personally, I simply retreat/withdraw from the scene: for instance, when my youngest was in grade school I signed a form that she couldn’t attend a sexual education class. It ends up they had her in the class anyway; so I simply went to the school & told them I clearly couldn’t trust them, & withdrew her from public school. We educated her at home, & also at my work (I had my own company at the time). When politics affected me due to Covid, I took a personal stance. I didn’t get political about it, but simply pled my case with HR, fully expecting that I was going to lose my job. But, I didn’t. But, I was fully prepared to just walk away from it all without causing a fuss. I’m just glad it didn’t come down to that.. In my mind, God is Sovereign, & He’s handed all things over to His Son, who has a plan of conquest that will ultimately be fulfilled when he returns. There’s nothing I can personally do on the political front that will help or hinder God’s plan. And honestly, politics (whether Conservative or Liberal) are so corrupt, it’s impossible to separate the wheat from the tares. It seems a stock of wheat enters the field of politics & magically is transformed into a tare! So, I just go about my business, and attempt to make my life & the lives of those around me a better place. Jesus will conquer in the end, & my voting or arguing about politics seems useless to me. I’m not judging anyone for talking politics. I just find it a burdensome subject.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 23, 2023 23:07:40 GMT -5
An elderly lady that we loved dearly told us that she was baptized wearing beads and lipstick. It was some time later that she determined that it wasn't part of 2x2 fashion. But that was a long time ago. I also remember one convention where the gospel meeting wasn't "tested". Reportedly it was because the workers knew there was a person (or couple) they were afraid might stand up. I also know two people who stood up in meetings to profess, and were told after the meeting that the meeting wasn't tested for them. One was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let that person profess. Oh my Gawsh! Telling someone that the testing was not for them is cruel, if not wicked. …. One lady who was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let her profess, decided that she would profess at the next convention when it came around. After she professed she was again told that she couldn't profess. There ensued a conversation among the workers about where the directive came from that she should not be allowed to profess. Before the convention ended they decided that no one knew where it came from and why it was given, so they told her that it would be okay, she could be professing now. Promptly began taking part in our meetings.
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 24, 2023 0:05:23 GMT -5
Oh my Gawsh! Telling someone that the testing was not for them is cruel, if not wicked. …. One lady who was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let her profess, decided that she would profess at the next convention when it came around. After she professed she was again told that she couldn't profess. There ensued a conversation among the workers about where the directive came from that she should not be allowed to profess. Before the convention ended they decided that no one knew where it came from and why it was given, so they told her that it would be okay, she could be professing now. Promptly began taking part in our meetings. I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 1:13:50 GMT -5
One lady who was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let her profess, decided that she would profess at the next convention when it came around. After she professed she was again told that she couldn't profess. There ensued a conversation among the workers about where the directive came from that she should not be allowed to profess. Before the convention ended they decided that no one knew where it came from and why it was given, so they told her that it would be okay, she could be professing now. Promptly began taking part in our meetings. I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔 I've never heard of it till I arrived here on TMB. When I professed in 1979, I shocked everyone. So, family, friends and workers did grill me for a few minutes over a few days on why I did it. RR did not smile even a smidgen when I told her why...
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Post by Annan on Feb 24, 2023 9:04:20 GMT -5
One lady who was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let her profess, decided that she would profess at the next convention when it came around. After she professed she was again told that she couldn't profess. There ensued a conversation among the workers about where the directive came from that she should not be allowed to profess. Before the convention ended they decided that no one knew where it came from and why it was given, so they told her that it would be okay, she could be professing now. Promptly began taking part in our meetings. I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔 Obviously the workers thought this was a person they couldn't control.
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Post by snow on Feb 24, 2023 14:44:02 GMT -5
I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔 I've never heard of it till I arrived here on TMB. When I professed in 1979, I shocked everyone. So, family, friends and workers did grill me for a few minutes over a few days on why I did it. RR did not smile even a smidgen when I told her why... They tell people that they can't be baptized so I guess they think they can tell people they can't profess? Makes no sense to me though. How do they know the heart of a person and what gives them the right to think they do? And, since they believe that you can't be saved and go to heaven without professing as a 2x2 and being baptized as a 2x2, that puts their obstruction of both those two things in an even more nasty light. They literally think they have the right to decide whether someone goes to hell or not if they really believe what they are preaching.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 24, 2023 15:48:04 GMT -5
One lady who was told by the worker that she didn't have permission to let her profess, decided that she would profess at the next convention when it came around. After she professed she was again told that she couldn't profess. There ensued a conversation among the workers about where the directive came from that she should not be allowed to profess. Before the convention ended they decided that no one knew where it came from and why it was given, so they told her that it would be okay, she could be professing now. Promptly began taking part in our meetings. I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔 The 2x2's are legitimately a denomination, albeit unincorporated, and as such they are organized. We know perfectly well the role assigned to every person within the fellowship -- and we all recognize that disruptive individuals in any group have to be dealt with, expelled if necessary; and it's the business of the members to decide what the discipline will be. In organized groups, it turns out to be the right of the authorities to decide, not the underlings. What you will find with the 2x2 organization is that when it comes to refusing admission to the fellowship, normally it will be when the "hierarchy" feels it has had some history of some note with the individual. You have to remember: every organization has to defend itself from interlopers, and organizations without defenses defined in law have to do what they can to maintain their "character" as best they can, especially if their reason for existing is their claim to morality and obedience.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 24, 2023 15:50:26 GMT -5
I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔 Obviously the workers thought this was a person they couldn't control. They had some history with him. That's not good. If you've been written off once, you darn well have to grovel to stay around.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 24, 2023 16:30:06 GMT -5
I don’t understand how anyone could think they have the right to tell someone they can’t profess. If being moved to profess is from the Holy Ghost, what right does a man or woman have to say “You don’t have permission to profess.” That’s wrong on so many levels😔 I've never heard of it till I arrived here on TMB. When I professed in 1979, I shocked everyone. So, family, friends and workers did grill me for a few minutes over a few days on why I did it. RR did not smile even a smidgen when I told her why... You won't ever hear about such things, except in circles that aren't recognized as safe for 2x2's to associate. I used to be in a meeting with as many as 25 people who had not a clue that the worker in the field have lied to them about a young man they had tried to have locked away in prison for years. They never planned on having one other person in the meeting being charged with the guy's supervision in the legal system, where the judge declared that he was screwed by interests in the church. Shunning is alive and well in the 2x2 system -- I have first hand experiences with it in California, Washington, and Nevada. And I guarantee, unless it involves you personally -- NO ONE will ever know about it. My testimony is about what happens to people who know about such things and says one word about it to anyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 16:35:13 GMT -5
I've never heard of it till I arrived here on TMB. When I professed in 1979, I shocked everyone. So, family, friends and workers did grill me for a few minutes over a few days on why I did it. RR did not smile even a smidgen when I told her why... You won't ever hear about such things, except in circles that aren't recognized as safe for 2x2's to associate. I used to be in a meeting with as many as 25 people who had not a clue that the worker in the field have lied to them about a young man they had tried to have locked away in prison for years. They never planned on having one other person in the meeting being charged with the guy's supervision in the legal system, where the judge declared that he was screwed by interests in the church. Shunning is alive and well in the 2x2 system -- I have first hand experiences with it in California, Washington, and Nevada. And I guarantee, unless it involves you personally -- NO ONE will ever know about it. My testimony is about what happens to people who know about such things and says one word about it to anyone else. I've experienced the shunning, not fun being cut off...
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 24, 2023 16:41:57 GMT -5
You won't ever hear about such things, except in circles that aren't recognized as safe for 2x2's to associate. I used to be in a meeting with as many as 25 people who had not a clue that the worker in the field have lied to them about a young man they had tried to have locked away in prison for years. They never planned on having one other person in the meeting being charged with the guy's supervision in the legal system, where the judge declared that he was screwed by interests in the church. Shunning is alive and well in the 2x2 system -- I have first hand experiences with it in California, Washington, and Nevada. And I guarantee, unless it involves you personally -- NO ONE will ever know about it. My testimony is about what happens to people who know about such things and says one word about it to anyone else. I've experienced the shunning, not fun being cut off... Have you experienced the attempts to have your relatives and personal friends in other states to sign agreements to shun you as well?
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rudyw
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Post by rudyw on Feb 24, 2023 17:21:43 GMT -5
I've never heard of it till I arrived here on TMB. When I professed in 1979, I shocked everyone. So, family, friends and workers did grill me for a few minutes over a few days on why I did it. RR did not smile even a smidgen when I told her why... They tell people that they can't be baptized so I guess they think they can tell people they can't profess? Makes no sense to me though. How do they know the heart of a person and what gives them the right to think they do? And, since they believe that you can't be saved and go to heaven without professing as a 2x2 and being baptized as a 2x2, that puts their obstruction of both those two things in an even more nasty light. They literally think they have the right to decide whether someone goes to hell or not if they really believe what they are preaching. Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a very small group of them still meeting in my hometown, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, and can be very vulgar when no women are around, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. I have to say, being on this board has revealed some things to me that I would never have been able to find out elsewhere. ]I think Cooney had it right, & when they got rid of him everything started to go to hell. I thought things were improving with the 2x2s, but it sounds like I was wrong.
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Post by Grant on Feb 24, 2023 17:51:37 GMT -5
They tell people that they can't be baptized so I guess they think they can tell people they can't profess? Makes no sense to me though. How do they know the heart of a person and what gives them the right to think they do? And, since they believe that you can't be saved and go to heaven without professing as a 2x2 and being baptized as a 2x2, that puts their obstruction of both those two things in an even more nasty light. They literally think they have the right to decide whether someone goes to hell or not if they really believe what they are preaching. Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a small group of them still meeting in Vancouver, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. It started with Irvine and the Living Witness doctrine me thinks. I think Cooney had it right. I’m perfectly capable of following Jesus and his way apart from the 2x2s! There are plenty of great churches out there if you want teaching and fellowship. A way of doing something is just that - a copy of man made structures. The Gospel message is Jesus not meeting in the home, going out in pairs etc.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 24, 2023 18:25:59 GMT -5
They tell people that they can't be baptized so I guess they think they can tell people they can't profess? Makes no sense to me though. How do they know the heart of a person and what gives them the right to think they do? And, since they believe that you can't be saved and go to heaven without professing as a 2x2 and being baptized as a 2x2, that puts their obstruction of both those two things in an even more nasty light. They literally think they have the right to decide whether someone goes to hell or not if they really believe what they are preaching. Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a very small group of them still meeting in my hometown, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, and can be very vulgar when no women are around, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. I have to say, being on this board has revealed some things to me that I would never have been able to find out elsewhere. ]I think Cooney had it right, & when they got rid of him everything started to go to hell. I thought things were improving with the 2x2s, but it sounds like I was wrong. My intention was not to disillusion you. I am like you in that I believe the 2x2 pattern is perhaps the best. In fact, while I was growing up all I was instructed about 2x2-ism was basically Cooney ideology. Being totally unaware of how the worker system operated, I believed and was satisfied that our own conscience before God was the only thing that mattered, and professing was merely an expression of my intentions to manifest virtuous Christian behaviors. Ironically, 2 years before I professed I discovered that everything a worker said cannot be true -- I still had not fully understood that it was popularly believed that what the workers said had to be from God. It didn't prevent me from professing, because I was raised in a family who frankly acknowledged the occasional "human weakness and folly" of workers, but respected them the way they respected all the friends were associated with. What destroyed my relationship with the ministry was the political maneuverings that prevail among them to a far greater extent than I have found among the friends themselves. But really, it is unavoidable -- simply because "organization is always about control". My thought is that if one can enjoy the fellowship and remain conscientiously independent from the ministry (outside of the governing dictates of individual workers), one can live quite comfortably. But you will have to be permanently conscious that critiquing anything about the ministry runs the risk of becoming expendable. The ministry will not let you embarrass them.
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rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
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Post by rudyw on Feb 24, 2023 18:42:54 GMT -5
Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a small group of them still meeting in Vancouver, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. It started with Irvine and the Living Witness doctrine me thinks. I think Cooney had it right. I’m perfectly capable of following Jesus and his way apart from the 2x2s! There are plenty of great churches out there if you want teaching and fellowship. A way of doing something is just that - a copy of man made structures. The Gospel message is Jesus not meeting in the home, going out in pairs etc. I’ve visited a few churches, with the wife, my youngest & her husband. None of them struck a chord with us. We’ve been in house fellowships for the past 40plus years, and truly don’t feel comfortable in a traditional church setting. Besides, none of us believe in the trinity, so I doubt we’d be welcome in the long haul, even if we found one we liked. We’d probably be booted out. I know that home meetings & the Apostolic ministry isn’t what it’s all about, but these are biblical & there are reasons for doing things in that way. I truly don’t think that Brick & Mortar Christians are any better off.
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