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Post by Annan on Nov 20, 2020 8:29:56 GMT -5
My parents once saw a man at convention writing furiously. He looked out of place with whatever clothes he was wearing. (I heard this from my parents.) Shortly after, they read the exact same sermon in a magazine called The Plain Truth. Gotta wonder. Have you ever tried to track it down? Would be an interesting piece of history for TTT All of the issues are archived online. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plain_TruthI was a kid then. I am in my 60's now. This would most likely have been in the late sixties or early seventies. Wouldn't know where to start. How would anyone prove it was the same sermon? My mom is deceased and I doubt my dad would remember the sermon. I never saw anyone record sermons. I have seen ladies take shorthand though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 12:50:50 GMT -5
For your info Annan, just a few years ago, perhaps a decade ago, there were at least four people who were never 2x2s who were travelling from convention to convention recording workers' sermons. And of course it is likely that those four non-2x2s And some of the resulting transcripts were posted on VIA if not VOT before VIA existed. And those sermons would be included in the links listed in the thread titled “To 2x2s with Love” on TMB – I know because I posted that list of pdf files of the entire website named Votisalive so anyone here can find many sermons of workers that were posted on VIA in transcripts backed on VIA by postings of the actual audio recordings.
Also, the more recent article regarding 2x2ism that appeared in the Plain Truth Magazine was at one time posted on VIA and was already made available to TTT – one would need to search the archives of the Plain Truth Magazine or the pdf copies of VIA pages to find it. I doubt that the article published in the Plain Truth Magazine that I mention here is the same article you speak of because that article, although it quoted worker-statements was not a transcript of any particular worker-sermon – and that article certainly is not old enough to be the one you indicate in the magazine during your childhood.
But if anyone is looking to prove some worker sermons, there are numerous such sermons linked on TMB that were backed by playable audio recordings. A few years ago I even saw a video of a worker preaching that was posted online.
But, granted, this post in no way intends to cast dispersion on your claim to have never seen anyone record workers. This post provides proof of such sights at many conventions that you perhaps were not present at. The amount of effort to which counter-cult ministries commonly go to FAIRLY present their evidence might surprise you.
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Post by nathan on Nov 20, 2020 19:30:47 GMT -5
The exes websites and anti-2×2 books have lost their POWER! It has very little impact with most of the 2x2s now.
John Long Journal gives us a good understanding of the early days workers beginning in 1898 and 1900S.
The pilgrim Church book and the historians of the Vaudious/Waldenses= Paul's converts from Rome and through down the centuries teachings, belief let us KNOW many interesting information.
They practice Jesus 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry and fellowship for 1800 yrs before the Faith Mission (1886) and 2x2 (1898) workers who copied it from them.
When the book of Doug Parker, and Kathelen Lewish (the church without a name) came out in 1980s on the westcoast of USA it caused a lot of stir among the friends.
Then TTT Cherie website 1990s= William Irvine the founder of 2x2 in 1897 came out it created lot of trouble to many of the friends and workers belief and foundation.
Many workers didn't know how to handle and answer about WI the founder of 2x2s.
The friends began to ask questions about WI, the workers covered up CSA, and homosexuality within the ministry. The workers tried to brush off and excommunicated those who question their authority like Alberta excommunication in 1990s.
The teachings of the early days workers were NOT recorded or preserved. Some of the friends test. Of what the workers teachings and belief survived.
I am hoping and praying we/2×2 workers and friends can make the lemonade out of the lemons (Exes websites and anti-2×2 books) experiences by NOT repeating the same mistake and fix the problem that we have (CSA, Anti-Trinity or Jesus is NOT God).
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Post by bfvernon on Nov 20, 2020 20:56:52 GMT -5
Nathan, you will never make lemonade out of those dreadful lies.
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Post by nathan on Nov 20, 2020 23:18:39 GMT -5
Nathan, you will never make lemonade out of those dreadful lies. No lies, I am Telling the Truth.Posted on Feb 28, 2019 Christiansburg (2x2/ex-worker) Wrote:
I personally had never heard of the Waldensians until about 10 years ago. Our ministry is so different that I wondered if there were others who ever tried it before 1898. That is when I read about that group, a recent visit to their museum and personal conversations with them revealed that they seemed to change from what they had done earlier as a 2x2 group. I asked why they had changed and was told that they knew they had to give up some of their earlier ideas in order to survive. As you know they merged with the Presbyterians. None of the workers I knew years ago ever spoke of the Waldensians. Maybe they knew. Maybe they didn't. I just don't know. If you research the Waldenses you will find a treasure trove of information of what you ask about. I studied about them several years ago got a book from one of their museums in North Carolina. There is a historical record of them written by (Rev.) John Hons published in 1982 -- second edition. It is a long but detailed (and documented) record of their survival from the 1st century on. They migrated from central Italy to northwest Italy then into the Alps and on to Switzerland. They were a repressed, hunted down and murdered group of people. The Romans Catholic Church were threatened by them and sought to eliminate them. A few survived and hid in Switzerland. They record a record of their homeless ministry, meetings in the home. Too much to detail here.
When I visited their museum it was housed in a Presbyterian Church. I told the minister there who gave us a guided tour that I knew their history and then ask why they gave up on following their past way of doing things. His words "...We had to release those ideas and merge with the Presbyterian Church in order to survive". I told him that because of that they had not survived. He agreed. The museum is located in Vale, NC. When the King James 1611 Bible was being translated it is believed that remnants of the Waldenses' Bible records may have been used. There is another book written by one of our friends also "Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship" written by Dr. Cornelius Jaenen. He is well educated having graduated from a Canadian university with a degree in history. Mr. Jaenen went to Ethopia in the early 1950's to provide an open home for the workers. He is not there now but maybe returned to Canada. His book is still available on Amazon for about $50.00. Cherie Kropp posted segments of his book here in 2016, I believe. She provided her critique also on this website. Mr Jaenen attempts to trace Apostolic Succession back to the the first 12 Apostles. If you read the book you can make your own assumptions about that. I am satisfied well enough just to accept that what we have in our fellowship today as being as near to the NT ministry and fellowship as anything I know about. I have been professing for 63 years. I started going to meetings in 1956. I came out from the Methodist church in 1956. My grandparents were Catholic and Episcopalian on my mother's side. On my father's side they were Baptist. I know 100% what goes on there. I also know full well the challenges we face. NathanB wrote: That is so awesome, Christianburg! Thanks, so much for the information and some of the early history of the 2x2. I first heard about the Vaudois/Waldesense when Jay W. and I were together as co-workers in North Bend, Oregon 1988-89. There was a University church historian, who gave a lecture about the Vaudois/Waldenses and Peter Waldo in 1160 A.D. It was an amazing lecture to listen to her. A few months later, someone gave us the Pilgrim Church by Broadbent at Boring convention, and some of the workers Jay W. Randy R. and myself read the book in the car on our way to other conventions. We found out more information about the Vaudois history and Peter Waldo, the Frenchman who became follower of the Vaudois and his amazing 2x2 apostolic ministry up till the time he died. After I left the work in 1993, I put a lot of time searching, studying and find all I could about the Vaudois history and their belief, from other historians and their own church historians. I was astonished of the information available on the Internet on the Vaudois, Albigenses, Poor men of Lyons/France or Peter Waldo and his followers in the 11th century. Someone on TMB post the pilgrim church book by Broadbent and I am glad they did so others can read it for themselves. I had post many of their belief and teachings for 20 yrs. Title: The Pilgrim Church Author: E. H. Broadbent Chapter V history of the Vaudois/Waldenses Date first posted: July 2010 www.gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
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Post by bfvernon on Nov 21, 2020 1:00:51 GMT -5
Nathan, I’m not even talking about that rubbish. I’m talking about the William Irvine lies, the only one truth lie, the theological lies, the shunning, the CSA that has been covered up ..... If you also want to add your extra rubbish, go right ahead, but NO ONE BELIEVES IT. And to say something as benign as “make lemonade out of lemons” is ridiculous.
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Post by nathan on Nov 21, 2020 2:20:42 GMT -5
Nathan, I’m not even talking about that rubbish. I’m talking about the William Irvine lies, the only one truth lie, the theological lies, the shunning, the CSA that has been covered up ..... If you also want to add your extra rubbish, go right ahead, but NO ONE BELIEVES IT. And to say something as benign as “make lemonade out of lemons” is ridiculous. Tell me again what William Irvine lied about?
What are the theological lies? Can you list two of them for me. Thanks.
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Post by bfvernon on Nov 21, 2020 5:52:20 GMT -5
You’re joking. All of it has been gone over and over and over on this forum. Complete rubbish that has ruined many lives. Goodbye Nathan.
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Post by nathan on Nov 21, 2020 10:37:27 GMT -5
You’re joking. All of it has been gone over and over and over on this forum. Complete rubbish that has ruined many lives. Goodbye Nathan. Yes, it is rubbish according to the doubters and unbelievers. In the Judgment day God will reveal the TRUTH of these things to us but it will too late for the unbelievers to understand and believe it. As the scriptures teach "Today, if thou hear His Voice harden NOT your hearts."
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Post by nathan on Nov 24, 2020 11:10:47 GMT -5
Every time I read the title of this thread, I chuckle. Does God really get busy? As in, "Dude, can't talk right now, I'm in the weeds with destroying all the website and stuff. Talk on Tuesday." Just sounds funny but that may be my twisted humor. I think He might actually have pretty good time management skills. And before the non-theist deride my post, about no God, etc, yadda yadda, just chill (that should elicit a neg response!) I get it, we're different, it's okay. I understand. (At least I'm not bringing up Enus vay Esus jay...oops...see if that slides by) Yes, God and Christ care because 1000s of his 2x2s children are gone or died spiritually/became atheists/agnostics/unbelievers, and we see some of the results on here/TMB the last 20 years. In the past there was a poll taken the convention had decreased about 30% world wide due to the exes websites, anti-2x2s books, and message boards.It takes months or years for someone to profess and all of that gone in matters of days, and weeks because of what they read on the exes websites or books. Can you imagine at the end they find out they had been deceived by these half-truth information and they had lost out! the crown of life and eternal life is gone. Ouch! LOST Eternity is a long, long time you know.Just think the people who deceived your own children to turn against you and seek to destroy your own family! You think that is OK? and you let them continue and without pay back?We know many exes and 2x2s have died since the years 2000 it would be great if they could tell us where they are like the Rich man/unbeliever and Lazarus/believer in Luke 16. It would be a game changer for many lives for sure.Luke 16: 24-31 24 And he/the Rich man cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him/Lazarus to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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