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Post by mountain on May 5, 2020 8:42:17 GMT -5
Well said Matt 10. It is not the claims themselves that are wrong (eg only true way etc), it is whether the proponents are indeed that one true way. Only true way claims can rightly be made by those who belong to the only true way. Scripture readily points to an only true way. The problem is...who are the only true way in this day and age? Hi Mountain, I've read your last few posts on this thread regarding seeking the "true way", and you have mentioned a few scriptural qualifications, so assume you are looking seriously at the Bible for this answer. The only true answer is "Jesus". He is the Way. Not any group of men who claim to follow him, not any one church or denomination. All "ways" in terms of churches and denominations and persuasions are, in the end, made up just of faulty people, getting it wrong here and there. You will always be disappointed if you put your hope in a "way" of particular people. John 16:13 says "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." I would say to you - don't seek the right church, seek Jesus alone. Seek that Spirit of truth. Call out to him. Read the Bible. Pray to him. If you find a church who claims they are "it", run far, far away. If you want to find a church, find one which says "come join us, we are sinners, but we trust in the cross alone for our salvation and righteousness." All true believers know that their hope is in Jesus, not in their church. Jesus is not a respecter of denominations, but is a respecter of true faith in him. There are many true believers in false churches and unbelievers in good churches. (There are many good churches out there, just not the ones who claim that they alone have the monopoly on God.) And you if you do find the perfect church, for goodness' sake don't join it - you'll just mess it up. Hi Liz, I agree with much of what you say. However, Jesus is NOT many ways but as you say is 'the way.' Singular, not plural. You can only follow Jesus in one way and that is to keep his commandments and to do that you need the indwelling Holy Spirit. Not only that he is the truth and the life which leads to the Father. There is no scriptural support for denominational differences. To assume there is, is foolhardy in the least. A true believer cannot believe in a false church without knowing it is wrong and sooner or later will move on, though there are certainly unbelievers in good churches. Jesus certainly is a respecter of true faith in him and does not respect false denominations. God looks on the heart and knows who belongs to him.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 5, 2020 17:51:25 GMT -5
Hi Liz, I agree with much of what you say. However, Jesus is NOT many ways but as you say is 'the way.' Singular, not plural. You can only follow Jesus in one way and that is to keep his commandments and to do that you need the indwelling Holy Spirit. Not only that he is the truth and the life which leads to the Father. There is no scriptural support for denominational differences. To assume there is, is foolhardy in the least. A true believer cannot believe in a false church without knowing it is wrong and sooner or later will move on, though there are certainly unbelievers in good churches. Jesus certainly is a respecter of true faith in him and does not respect false denominations. God looks on the heart and knows who belongs to him. Hi Mountain, I love the way you describe Jesus and following him - yes! ONE way, not many ways. So as soon as you start to associate this "one way" with a particular ministry or church, you are not trusting in Christ alone, but in another "way". You also then discount all other true believers not belonging to that "way". Truly believing that "Jesus is the way" means you have a faith that stands in him alone, not dependent on any "way" of men. Believing in the gospel means believing in what was preached by the apostles: "...but we preach Christ crucified.." 1 Cor 12: Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. [I note that many false churches do not accept the deity of Jesus, and therefore do not recognise him truly as Lord.] As regarding support for denominational differences: 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.Jesus' own apostles found this concept hard to accept, note Mark 8:38-41 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.Romans chapter 14 (read the whole chapter) is also a good example of those who have different convictions but are all true believers: Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.True believers recognise each other because they believe in the ONE gospel - the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ. They talk of him being the Way (not about their own church being the Way). As you said in your closing sentence: "God looks on the heart and knows who belongs to him." Yes! Jesus knows who belongs to him by their heart, not by which group they belong to. Wheat among tares.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 5, 2020 20:53:08 GMT -5
Yup, the way is not a church, and a church is not the way
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Post by speak on May 5, 2020 23:01:57 GMT -5
Yup, the way is not a church, and a church is not the way Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. There are so many verses to say that Jesus is the church, in the church the head of the church, so if He being the way and is the church the church must be the way.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 5, 2020 23:33:20 GMT -5
I said "a church", not "the church", and there is a contextual difference that I think you missed the meaning of
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 6, 2020 0:16:01 GMT -5
Yup, the way is not a church, and a church is not the way Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. There are so many verses to say that Jesus is the church, in the church the head of the church, so if He being the way and is the church the church must be the way. Ah, see this is where you guys fail again, not having a common understanding of what the church is. Jesus indeed is the church, and the head of the church. As the Heidelberg Catechism puts it so well, in answer to the question, what is the church: I believe that the Son of God, out of the whole human race, from the beginning of the world to its end, gathers, defends, and preserves for himself, by his Spirit and Word, in the unity of the true faith, a church chosen to everlasting life. I love these words. Through all of time, from the whole human race, in the unity of the true faith. It is Jesus' church, not ours.
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Post by nathan on May 6, 2020 0:43:46 GMT -5
Jesus said MY Church/Singular the New Testament which he and the apostles started in the 1st century, NOT 40,000 plus denominations we see today... Paul warned about this religious mess in Acts 20: 28-30 This denomination has a good understand church history but they are NOT out of the Satan Christianity religious confusion MAZE in the world. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH79F0Hn56U
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 6, 2020 1:17:53 GMT -5
Jesus said MY Church/Singular the New Testament which he and the apostles started in the 1st century, NOT 40,000 plus denominations we see today... Paul warned about this religious mess in Acts 20: 28-30 This denomination has a good understand church history but they are NOT out of the Satan Christianity religious confusion MAZE in the world. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH79F0Hn56U And yet the church that calls itself the "truth" and lies about everything (beginnings, organisation, registration, finances, those who leave) is somehow the one true church? This claim is not just sad, but downright farcical.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 1:23:52 GMT -5
Jesus said MY Church/Singular the New Testament which he and the apostles started in the 1st century, NOT 40,000 plus denominations we see today... Paul warned about this religious mess in Acts 20: 28-30 This denomination has a good understand church history but they are NOT out of the Satan Christianity religious confusion MAZE in the world. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH79F0Hn56U And yet the church that calls itself the "truth" and lies about everything (beginnings, organisation, registration, finances, those who leave) is somehow the one true church? This claim is not just sad, but downright farcical. well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 6, 2020 1:25:51 GMT -5
And yet the church that calls itself the "truth" and lies about everything (beginnings, organisation, registration, finances, those who leave) is somehow the one true church? This claim is not just sad, but downright farcical. well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today? When something is founded on lies it is very difficult to get everyone to remember which lie to believe in. That is why religions including the cult you have faith in Wally, are like a house of cards built on the sand.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 1:29:35 GMT -5
well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today? When something is founded on lies it is very difficult to get everyone to remember which lie to believe in. That is why religions including the cult you have faith in Wally, are like a house of cards built on the sand. if its of God it will stand on its own if its not of God it will fall on its face...i don't see the truth falling any time soon....
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Post by speak on May 6, 2020 1:38:01 GMT -5
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Romans 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. There are so many verses to say that Jesus is the church, in the church the head of the church, so if He being the way and is the church the church must be the way. Ah, see this is where you guys fail again, not having a common understanding of what the church is. Jesus indeed is the church, and the head of the church. As the Heidelberg Catechism puts it so well, in answer to the question, what is the church: I believe that the Son of God, out of the whole human race, from the beginning of the world to its end, gathers, defends, and preserves for himself, by his Spirit and Word, in the unity of the true faith, a church chosen to everlasting life. I love these words. Through all of time, from the whole human race, in the unity of the true faith. It is Jesus' church, not ours. And as you see that our understanding is not common as you see common understanding today, nor was Jesus's understanding as what was common understanding in His day. The greatest number has the common understanding as the Bible shows and the lest have not the common understanding of today. When we have the Christ within we are the Church with Jesus, we have been adopted in by His Spirit. If we are not of His Church we will not be His simple as that.
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Post by nathan on May 6, 2020 2:16:15 GMT -5
Jesus said MY Church/Singular the New Testament which he and the apostles started in the 1st century, NOT 40,000 plus denominations we see today... Paul warned about this religious mess in Acts 20: 28-30 This denomination has a good understand church history but they are NOT out of the Satan Christianity religious confusion MAZE in the world. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH79F0Hn56U And yet the church that calls itself the "truth" and lies about everything (beginnings, organisation, registration, finances, those who leave) is somehow the one true church? This claim is not just sad, but downright farcical. Well, I read the New Testament church in the 1st century had all kinds of problems too... and we/2x2s have our own today! It proves we are God's working in progress. The 1st century church was NOT perfect either. Read the 7 churches in the Book of Revelation. Wow! to think those were the church of Jesus Christ, we had tons of problems but Christ still call them His churches and tried to tell them to change many of their false ways... and He was still love them dearly.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 6, 2020 3:01:48 GMT -5
And yet the church that calls itself the "truth" and lies about everything (beginnings, organisation, registration, finances, those who leave) is somehow the one true church? This claim is not just sad, but downright farcical. well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today? So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith?
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Post by mountain on May 6, 2020 3:14:24 GMT -5
Hi Liz, I agree with much of what you say. However, Jesus is NOT many ways but as you say is 'the way.' Singular, not plural. You can only follow Jesus in one way and that is to keep his commandments and to do that you need the indwelling Holy Spirit. Not only that he is the truth and the life which leads to the Father. There is no scriptural support for denominational differences. To assume there is, is foolhardy in the least. A true believer cannot believe in a false church without knowing it is wrong and sooner or later will move on, though there are certainly unbelievers in good churches. Jesus certainly is a respecter of true faith in him and does not respect false denominations. God looks on the heart and knows who belongs to him. Hi Mountain, I love the way you describe Jesus and following him - yes! ONE way, not many ways. So as soon as you start to associate this "one way" with a particular ministry or church, you are not trusting in Christ alone, but in another "way". You also then discount all other true believers not belonging to that "way". Truly believing that "Jesus is the way" means you have a faith that stands in him alone, not dependent on any "way" of men. Believing in the gospel means believing in what was preached by the apostles: "...but we preach Christ crucified.." The 'one way' is the way that Jesus exampled for us to follow! Remember too that focussing on the one way, is only one third of what Jesus said. He is the way, the truth and the life that leads to the Father. We must follow him in this. He is the way of God, the truth of God's word and the life that is pleasing to God. That's the trinity that I accept! We cannot talk about one way and not also dine on the truth and the life. They are all co-dependent. This is one thing we MUST remember in attempting to interpret the scriptures. Most passages are dependent upon other passages, to be taken as a whole, not selected and pursued independently. This is what leads to different denominations. There are many enticing doctrines out there and we need the leading of the Holy Spirit to discern what is right and what is wrong. Goodness me, Virgs has warned us about such time and time again, but so fe listen.
The identity of true believers can only be established if they are truly following in Jesus's footsteps. The early disciples showed us exactly how it's done. They followed in the footsteps of their master. There is no such thing as a true believer who does not seek to follow Jesus in the way, truth and life that leads to the Father. The term 'believing' means exactly that not just a formal acknowledgement or take your pick from a variety of options.(Virgs)
1 Cor 12: Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. [I note that many false churches do not accept the deity of Jesus, and therefore do not recognise him truly as Lord.] This is a major part where we differ. I would strongly argue that those churches who believe and project the idea that Jesus is actually the the Almighty God, are deceivers who have been deceived. God's desire from the very beginning was to operate through MAN, every man. That day will come. God raised up the human being Jesus, inter alia, to be the firstborn human being of his new creation. It is an utter and downright fallacy to say that because someone does not recognise Jesus as God then they do not truly recognise him as their Lord. This is purely human thinking designed to try and enforce a viewpoint. Nothing else. It is God who made the human being Jesus Lord of Lords, King of Kings, because of what he achieved!
As regarding support for denominational differences: 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.Equating different forms of service and gifts with different denominations is stretching things a bit too far. This leaves the boundaries of reasoning way behind. It reeks of an attempt to downplay the concept of a one true way?
Jesus' own apostles found this concept hard to accept, note Mark 8:38-41 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.Again we have to use proper reasoning here. The church or assembly of believers had not yet been properly formed and was a scattering of people who had accepted the messages of John the Baptist and Jesus etc. This man who cast out the demons was clearly one of their number, a true follower of Jesus. Ortherwise the disciples had no authority or power to stop him from doing what he was doing. Furthermore, he accepted their authority. Jesus had clearly given him the authority and power to do what he was doing. The simple matter is that the disciples were jealous of him doing so, were raised up in their pride as having been specially selected to go out with the Kingdom of God message, authenticated by their power to work miracles. They debated amongst themselves who was the greatest. What this incident shows is that there were likely lone preachers, probably localised in nature, preaching the same message as the itinerant twelve. This didn't gel with the disciples though. It shows that two and two is not a mandatory format. This lone man could not have done the works of God except he was given that power from above and that he had accepted the command of Jesus to follow him. This man was not from a different denomination. He was from the same group as the other disciples, though this group was in its infancy. Romans chapter 14 (read the whole chapter) is also a good example of those who have different convictions but are all true believers: Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.Having dfferent convictions should not be confused with believing in different doctrines.
True believers recognise each other because they believe in the ONE gospel - the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ. They talk of him being the Way (not about their own church being the Way). The way of Jesus should never be replaced by a church. Never! By atoning work I understand you are referring to Jesus's sacrifice on the cross? This was necessary to take care of our sins, without which no one could be acceptable to God. However, this should NOT be regarded as the ONE gospel. It is part of the gospel message. When John the Baptist, Jesus and the disciples preached the ONE gospel it contained two messages, 1) a dire warning of the wrath of God, and 2) a message of hope. The message of hope was to show mankind there is a way, an only way, a one true way, in which man could escape the wrath of God. This was before Jesus's blood sacrifice. Man was to turn from his sins and to make himself right with God by following in the footsteps of their master. The yet to come blood sacrifice catered for their sins, though the Jews were to follow the animal sacrifices until that time came.
As you said in your closing sentence: "God looks on the heart and knows who belongs to him." Yes! Jesus knows who belongs to him by their heart, not by which group they belong to. Wheat among tares. Nearly there. There is only one group or assembly of believers in God's eyes. They do not belong to a man made group but to one founded by Jesus and build upon by the Apostles, prophets and martyrs, etc. They are known to God.
(Virgs)
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Post by mountain on May 6, 2020 3:17:24 GMT -5
well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today? So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith? The current pandemic crisis is showing us that God's church does not need denominations, etc., it needs his Spirit. Fellowship is for strengthening each other and communal worship, etc., it is not a relationship with God in itself, though it is part of that. The relationship with God is all down to possessing his indwelling spirit. (Virgs)
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 3:29:35 GMT -5
The indwelling spirit....... that people can possess regardless of colour, creed or culture, not exclusive to ‘one’ group of people.
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Post by nathan on May 6, 2020 9:32:16 GMT -5
well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today? So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith? Do you see any of these churches resemble or the same teachings the Church of Jesus Christ in the 1st century? If it quacked like a duck it's a duck.... If it doesn't quack like a duck then it is NOT a duck but something else. Wouldn't you say?
Jesus said by their fruits you shall KNOW them! God has preserved the gospels, the books of Acts, and many of the apostles epistles as a guideline so, people can compare with these 40,000 plus denominations exist today with His Truth and Way Jesus and the apostles started in the 1st century!
Acts 5 God gives His Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him, If people disobeying his instructions, truth and way then God will NOT grant His Spirit to them.... because it would cause confusion and chaos. People began to do their own things, set up their own churches, it gets VERY messy like we see today.
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Post by Grant on May 6, 2020 11:46:13 GMT -5
So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith? Do you see any of these churches resemble or the same teachings the Church of Jesus Christ in the 1st century? If it quacked like a duck it's a duck.... If it doesn't quack like a duck then it is NOT a duck but something else. Wouldn't you say?
Jesus said by their fruits you shall KNOW them! God has preserved the gospels, the books of Acts, and many of the apostles epistles as a guideline so, people can compare with these 40,000 plus denominations exist today with His Truth and Way Jesus and the apostles started in the 1st century!
Acts 5 God gives His Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him, If people disobeying his instructions, truth and way then God will NOT grant His Spirit to them.... because it would cause confusion and chaos. People began to do their own things, set up their own churches, it gets VERY messy like we see today.
You're talking about the church you attend Nathan, one of the 40,000 denominations, doing their own thing, having set up their own church, very messy like we see today. Nothing like the New Testememt church. The apostles went every where preaching the word. They didn't spend a life time sitting in converts homes doing nothing. They went everywhere preaching the word. Jesus had no where to lay his head, a wandering preacher, unlike the workers who only visit converts. Nothing like the New Testament ministry or the Waldensians. The workers don't follow the great commission by going out into all the world and preaching the Gospel. The great commission was not go and stay where your told and visit your converts all day. It was go out and preach the Gospel.
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Post by nathan on May 6, 2020 12:09:32 GMT -5
Do you see any of these churches resemble or the same teachings the Church of Jesus Christ in the 1st century? If it quacked like a duck it's a duck.... If it doesn't quack like a duck then it is NOT a duck but something else. Wouldn't you say?
Jesus said by their fruits you shall KNOW them! God has preserved the gospels, the books of Acts, and many of the apostles epistles as a guideline so, people can compare with these 40,000 plus denominations exist today with His Truth and Way Jesus and the apostles started in the 1st century!
Acts 5 God gives His Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him, If people disobeying his instructions, truth and way then God will NOT grant His Spirit to them.... because it would cause confusion and chaos. People began to do their own things, set up their own churches, it gets VERY messy like we see today.
You're talking about the church you attend Nathan, one of the 40,000 denominations, doing their own thing, having set up their own church, very messy like we see today. Nothing like the New Testememt church. The apostles went every where preaching the word. They didn't spend a life time sitting in converts homes doing nothing. They went everywhere preaching the word. Jesus had no where to lay his head, a wandering preacher, unlike the workers who only visit converts. Nothing like the New Testament ministry or the Waldensians. The workers don't follow the great commission by going out into all the world and preaching the Gospel. The great commission was not go and stay where your told and visit your converts all day. It was go out and preach the Gospel. ** It seems you don't quite understand the 1st century New Testament operation and the 2x2 workers operation today. I have check these things out there are many similarities between the 1st Century church and those like them through the ages and the 2x2 workers because they have the same guidance of the Holy Spirit as their Teacher and Protector. There are 2x2 workers in many countries around the world you can tell by conventions in these countries annually... The Great Commission is still continui g as Jesus has commanded to His apostles and followers to fulfill to the time He returns to set up His ETERNAL kingdom on earth.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 13:18:52 GMT -5
well "the church" had its own problems even back in the 1st century. i mean read the NT and especially the first few chapters of revelation. do you think the church would be any different today? So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith? i am not exclusive i think others will be saved in other churches. i do think the truth is the best way though just not the only way. but to think the church must be 100% perfect when even the 1st century church was not is just not rational.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 16:38:39 GMT -5
So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith? Do you see any of these churches resemble or the same teachings the Church of Jesus Christ in the 1st century? If it quacked like a duck it's a duck.... If it doesn't quack like a duck then it is NOT a duck but something else. Wouldn't you say?
Jesus said by their fruits you shall KNOW them! God has preserved the gospels, the books of Acts, and many of the apostles epistles as a guideline so, people can compare with these 40,000 plus denominations exist today with His Truth and Way Jesus and the apostles started in the 1st century!
Acts 5 God gives His Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him, If people disobeying his instructions, truth and way then God will NOT grant His Spirit to them.... because it would cause confusion and chaos. People began to do their own things, set up their own churches, it gets VERY messy like we see today.
Exactly -“by their fruits you shall know them”. Maybe you have not experienced being in the company of one who has the fruits of the spirit so to speak but not of your church group. There are people in every church group that emanate the fruits of the spirit. There are people in every church that do not emanate the fruits of the spirit. what speaks loudly to me, is ones individual spirit, not the vehicle they are riding along in.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 6, 2020 18:01:07 GMT -5
mountain, I can see you're still clearly under the salvation by works and following Jesus as the perfect example gospel. We'll have to respectfully disagree about the fundamental nature of the gospel. Thank you for taking the time to respond and explain your viewpoint and position. I wish you well in your spiritual search.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 6, 2020 18:57:43 GMT -5
So the problems in the NT church somehow still prove that your messed up church is the one true way, but all other churches with problems are false. That's your logic? You don't think there's even a tiny possibility that other churches with problems could get a look in at being real churches with real people of faith? Acts 5 God gives His Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him, If people disobeying his instructions, truth and way then God will NOT grant His Spirit to them.... because it would cause confusion and chaos. People began to do their own things, set up their own churches, it gets VERY messy like we see today.
Which is exactly what William Irvine and the first workers did. They weren't happy with the existing churches so they set up their own. Within a few years they declared it to be exclusive, like many other sects have done and so it goes on. They then adopted their own belief system which is quite at odds with the Bible in key areas. Whilst their doctrine was relatively Biblical at the outset, they don't believe in the fall, sin originating in Adam, the Son in His incarnation being completely divine and so on and so forth. Their primary doctrines today after the "ministry without a home" and the "meeting in a home". They still believe in redemption through what Christ did on Calvary but believe that it is only possible for Christ's redemption to be effective if you profess through a worker, are baptised by them and attend their meetings. As a result, it's conditional atonement - based on conditions they apply. The body of believers today (the "church" or ekklesia in the original Greek, of which Christ is the Head) are those whom God has chosen throughout the world. They exist in many different types of Christian organisations - whether they are denominational or non-denominational. They may not even be part of a Christian group. For the workers to say that (a) Christ's death is conditional based on what they decide and (b) that it's not effective outside of their ministry is an insult to God. Where man tries to set the boundaries of God's grace, it doesn't end well.
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Post by speak on May 6, 2020 19:32:47 GMT -5
The indwelling spirit....... that people can possess regardless of colour, creed or culture, not exclusive to ‘one’ group of people. Exclusive to one group in regards to the indwelling spirit, they are one regardless of colour, creed or culture.
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Post by nathan on May 6, 2020 20:13:47 GMT -5
Acts 5 God gives His Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him, If people disobeying his instructions, truth and way then God will NOT grant His Spirit to them.... because it would cause confusion and chaos. People began to do their own things, set up their own churches, it gets VERY messy like we see today.
Which is exactly what William Irvine and the first workers did. They weren't happy with the existing churches so they set up their own. Within a few years they declared it to be exclusive, like many other sects have done and so it goes on. They then adopted their own belief system which is quite at odds with the Bible in key areas. Whilst their doctrine was relatively Biblical at the outset, they don't believe in the fall, sin originating in Adam, the Son in His incarnation being completely divine and so on and so forth. Their primary doctrines today after the "ministry without a home" and the "meeting in a home". They still believe in redemption through what Christ did on Calvary but believe that it is only possible for Christ's redemption to be effective if you profess through a worker, are baptised by them and attend their meetings. As a result, it's conditional atonement - based on conditions they apply. The body of believers today (the "church" or ekklesia in the original Greek, of which Christ is the Head) are those whom God has chosen throughout the world. They exist in many different types of Christian organisations - whether they are denominational or non-denominational. They may not even be part of a Christian group. For the workers to say that (a) Christ's death is conditional based on what they decide and (b) that it's not effective outside of their ministry is an insult to God. Where man tries to set the boundaries of God's grace, it doesn't end well. Well, that is your opinion.... Here is a good picture early days of the 2x2 workers.... ~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909
1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45) Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45) ~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2x2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
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Post by nathan on May 6, 2020 20:16:47 GMT -5
George Walker, 2x2 worker (1899) wrote: To the American Selective service in 1942
We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members. They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a Return! to the methods and purpose taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them."
As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian were met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history.
Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary....
George Walker
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 21:19:20 GMT -5
The result of ideas out of Men's minds 121 years ago. maybe not even relevant at the time, certainly no relevance now. That was purely based on their assessment and they saw it for a reason to start a new 2x2 Church. Happens all the time , some smart arse thinks there is a better way of doing things, so they start a different brand of the same thing. Just adds to the confusion.
Don't forget they also threw in a few extra rules as well. That was simply to have power and control over people.
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