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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 17, 2020 11:51:25 GMT -5
Graves and tombs are 2 different things. It was “graves” that were opened. Jesus was buried in a rich man’s sepulchre/tomb. You’re the one not following here. I’m not twisting anything, but I know why you came to the conclusion you did, I used to think the same thing but it didn’t make sense because the earthquake opened Jesus’’ tomb/sepulchre. but I’ve learned since then that the Bible isn’t in sequence. It takes a bit of reading before and behind to get it put in right sequence. As to the tombs/sepulchres, only the rich had them. Average and poor people were wrapped in linen and buried in the ground. Likely since it was pretty rocky land around Jerusalem the graves might not all been so very deep. There weren’t regulations back in those days like these days. If indeed all those people did come out of their graves and if they had flesh & blood bodies like Jesus had, -would they have ascended into the sky like Jesus did?
If not, -where did they go?Btw, there is nothing that says resurrected bodies have blood. They don’t need it. But according to what Jesus said to his disciples and they were a frighten, thinking they were seeing a spirit. He said Peace be unto you. Jesus said in Luke 24:39. Behold my hands, and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see, for a spirit hath NOT flesh and bones, as ye see me have. This is redeemed resurrected bodies. Yes, they followed Jesus into heaven when he went the first time as he tells of in John 20:16-18, this was early at dawn. Then in John 20:19 it says the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when he appeared to his disciples. He had returned to earth. Then he ascended as in Acts 1.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 17, 2020 11:57:05 GMT -5
it does appear after reading about it that there might have been 2 earthquakes....the 1st one when Jesus was on the cross and the centurion was looking at Jesus...and the 2nd one at the tomb that rolled back the stone.... Wally, I used to think it likely also. However in 27:51 where it says the earth did quake and the rocks rent. The reference is chapter 28:2. In my bible at least. And according to what I’ve read there was an earthquake in the early 30’s. I don’t remember if an exact year was given or not. There was a solar eclipse which is described in verse 45, lasting from noon until 3pm, also discovered the same year and possibly the same time as the earthquake.
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Post by nathan on Mar 17, 2020 12:05:34 GMT -5
Nope. Hearsay. UFO's are Unidentified flying objects. Transcripts are proof of nothing. Lots of people have speculated on what if aliens visited us. No one has proof they were abducted. I have a friend that says she was implanted with a device in her nose so that aliens can keep track of her. Puzzles me as to why they would want to keep track of her. Doctors can't find the object she says they put in her nose, but she knows it's there. Fail. Nope. No proof. Your friend perhaps is NOT CRAZY after all, the tracking device moves around in the body avoid being taken it out of the body. Some people have died once the implants after it removed from their bodies. These evil ET beings have an evil agenda from their creator Satan/Serpent on earth... There are good ET/The human looking angels the Venusians and from other planets coming to earth and Jesus Christ from Venus are here to help us to fight against these evil ETs and Satan on earth.
Dr. Roger K. Leir is one of the world's most important leaders in physical evidence research involving the field of Ufology. In this special session he will reveal scientific proof that WE ARE NOT ALONE. Dr. Leir is a podiatric surgeon, in private practice for the past 43 years and has written numerous books including The Aliens and the Scalpel, UFO Crash in Brazil, and Casebook Alien Implants.
New Startling Findings: Alien Implant Research. The metorite implants change the person DNA.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfltW3oqrik
Here are some good videos of Dr. Roger Leir removing Aliens implants in people. www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%7E%7E+Dr.+Roger+Leir+New+Startling+Findings%3A+Alien+Implant+Research.
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Post by Annan on Mar 17, 2020 15:56:24 GMT -5
Your friend perhaps is NOT CRAZY after all, the tracking device moves around in the body avoid being taken it out of the body. Some people have died once the implants after it removed from their bodies. These evil ET beings have an evil agenda from their creator Satan/Serpent on earth... There are good ET/The human looking angels the Venusians and from other planets coming to earth and Jesus Christ from Venus are here to help us to fight against these evil ETs and Satan on earth.
Dr. Roger K. Leir is one of the world's most important leaders in physical evidence research involving the field of Ufology. In this special session he will reveal scientific proof that WE ARE NOT ALONE. Dr. Leir is a podiatric surgeon, in private practice for the past 43 years and has written numerous books including The Aliens and the Scalpel, UFO Crash in Brazil, and Casebook Alien Implants.
New Startling Findings: Alien Implant Research. The metorite implants change the person DNA.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfltW3oqrik
Here are some good videos of Dr. Roger Leir removing Aliens implants in people. www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%7E%7E+Dr.+Roger+Leir+New+Startling+Findings%3A+Alien+Implant+Research. I give up. I'm done. Sorry I ever replied to any of your ridiculous posts. Go join a UFO site and preach the 2x2 delusion there. See how far it gets you. Stop bothering us.
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Post by Dan on Mar 17, 2020 23:14:29 GMT -5
I don't believe the graves were literally dug up, but the graves were simply opened, meaning the souls of the deceased rose, but not in flesh & blood. They appeared to those who knew them as a testimony of the risen Christ. "But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy" (Isaiah 26:19). It was a miracle to substantiate life after death, evidence to those who knew them and literally saw that they lived again. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thessalonians 4:14).
When the dead rose in Christ, it wasn't their decayed rotten bodies that rose, flesh & blood goes back to dust. These saints in Matthew 27:52 rose in their spiritual bodies as a witness to Christ. They weren't zombies, but probably appeared as they looked in the flesh in order to be recognized. I doubt they would have been noticed as anyone but another person to the general public, but to someone who knew 'Joe the butcher' before he died, it would have been miraculous. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" (John 5:28).
Once again, Matthew says bodies NOT souls. This nonsense claim that it was their “spiritual” bodies that arose (whatever that means) is nothing but a case of special pleading. If it’s what the Bible intended, the word would have been translated as souls or spirits, not bodies. "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). So obviously, Christians believe we will have new bodies that never perish.
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 12:28:24 GMT -5
Once again, Matthew says bodies NOT souls. This nonsense claim that it was their “spiritual” bodies that arose (whatever that means) is nothing but a case of special pleading. If it’s what the Bible intended, the word would have been translated as souls or spirits, not bodies. "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). So obviously, Christians believe we will have new bodies that never perish. That’s nice that you’ve quoted other scripture and all but that’s not what Matthew itself states. Also, what str posted actually works against her when she directly contradicts herself by stating Jesus encouraged his followers to touch the flesh and bones of his post-resurrection body, an indication that according to the Bible it indeed resembled a flesh and blood, regular body. Quoting from the Bible (John 20, NIV): 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” This passage makes it clear that according to the Bible, Jesus’ resurrected body was very much of a flesh and blood nature.
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Post by nathan on Mar 18, 2020 12:43:15 GMT -5
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). So obviously, Christians believe we will have new bodies that never perish. That’s nice that you’ve quoted other scripture and all but that’s not what Matthew itself states. Also, what str posted actually works against her when she directly contradicts herself by stating Jesus encouraged his followers to touch the flesh and bones of his post-resurrection body, an indication that according to the Bible it indeed resembled a flesh and blood, regular body.Quoting from the Bible (John 20, NIV): 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” This passage makes it clear that according to the Bible, Jesus’ resurrected body was very much of a flesh and blood nature. Paul wrote that flesh and blood or Regular human bodies/sins can NOT enter heaven. That was why, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye MUST be BORN AGAIN! to ENTER the kingdom of God." It was a temporary resurrection bodies of the Old and New Testament believers came out of the graves/Hades inner earth prison of Paradise AFTER Jesus had paid the ransom priced for them. Dan is CORRECT! "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Thomas touched the Resurrection body of Christ with flesh and blood, eat, go through walls, appear and disappear at wills so, people can see, touch. That is the same kind of resurrection BODIES all the believers from the Old and New Testament in Christ/God will receive when he returns to be KING of kings to set up His ETERNAL kingdom and to rule the earth and Universe.
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Post by Dan on Mar 18, 2020 13:34:27 GMT -5
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). So obviously, Christians believe we will have new bodies that never perish. That’s nice that you’ve quoted other scripture and all but that’s not what Matthew itself states. Also, what str posted actually works against her when she directly contradicts herself by stating Jesus encouraged his followers to touch the flesh and bones of his post-resurrection body, an indication that according to the Bible it indeed resembled a flesh and blood, regular body. Quoting from the Bible (John 20, NIV): 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” This passage makes it clear that according to the Bible, Jesus’ resurrected body was very much of a flesh and blood nature.
Well, a spiritual body is touchable, but it isn't flesh and blood, remember that Jacob wrestled with an angel (spiritual being). No difference in bodies except that one is perishable and the other is not. Jesus maintained his wounds as evidence, he wasn't still bleeding from them. Our physical bodies aren't immortal, they go back to dust. Jesus was an exception, the transfiguration of his flesh body was performed as evidence that he in fact defeated death. "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). We don't understand the process, so it may be hard to wrap your head around it, but these flesh bodies are just temporary homes.
I think that STR was pointing out that Jesus in his spiritual body was able to penetrate walls/doors ( Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them )?
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 15:53:23 GMT -5
That’s nice that you’ve quoted other scripture and all but that’s not what Matthew itself states. Also, what str posted actually works against her when she directly contradicts herself by stating Jesus encouraged his followers to touch the flesh and bones of his post-resurrection body, an indication that according to the Bible it indeed resembled a flesh and blood, regular body.Quoting from the Bible (John 20, NIV): 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” This passage makes it clear that according to the Bible, Jesus’ resurrected body was very much of a flesh and blood nature. Paul wrote that flesh and blood or Regular human bodies/sins can NOT enter heaven. That was why, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye MUST be BORN AGAIN! to ENTER the kingdom of God." It was a temporary resurrection bodies of the Old and New Testament believers came out of the graves/Hades inner earth prison of Paradise AFTER Jesus had paid the ransom priced for them. Dan is CORRECT! "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Thomas touched the Resurrection body of Christ with flesh and blood, eat, go through walls, appear and disappear at wills so, people can see, touch. That is the same kind of resurrection BODIES all the believers from the Old and New Testament in Christ/God will receive when he returns to be KING of kings to set up His ETERNAL kingdom and to rule the earth and Universe.You seem to be acknowledging the bodies of the saints that arose from the dead would indeed be visible, at least temporarily. However, other than conjecture (which is not evidence), what evidence do you have that these bodies could appear and disappear at will? You cannot fall back on the verses in Corinthians as you have yourself seem to have distinguished the temporary resurrection bodies from the spiritual body. If you are not distinguishing between the two then that means the spiritual body is indeed visible and Corinthians doesn't state that the spiritual body can appear and disappear at will. If you are distinguishing between the two and the spiritual body is invisible then they could not (at least temporarily) have had the spiritual body Corinthians refers to.
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 16:04:31 GMT -5
That’s nice that you’ve quoted other scripture and all but that’s not what Matthew itself states. Also, what str posted actually works against her when she directly contradicts herself by stating Jesus encouraged his followers to touch the flesh and bones of his post-resurrection body, an indication that according to the Bible it indeed resembled a flesh and blood, regular body. Quoting from the Bible (John 20, NIV): 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” This passage makes it clear that according to the Bible, Jesus’ resurrected body was very much of a flesh and blood nature.
Well, a spiritual body is touchable, but it isn't flesh and blood, remember that Jacob wrestled with an angel (spiritual being). No difference in bodies except that one is perishable and the other is not. Jesus maintained his wounds as evidence, he wasn't still bleeding from them. Our physical bodies aren't immortal, they go back to dust. [Statement 1]: Jesus was an exception, the transfiguration of his flesh body was performed as evidence that he in fact defeated death. [Statement 2]: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). [Statement 3]: We don't understand the process, so it may be hard to wrap your head around it, but these flesh bodies are just temporary homes.
I think that STR was pointing out that Jesus in his spiritual body was able to penetrate walls/doors ( Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them )?
I already anticipated you would make Statement 1 and that is nothing but a gigantic case of special pleading--an error in argumentation/reasoning where an exception is claimed without evidence. If Statement 2 is meant to provide support for Statement 1, what you have committed is a non sequitur. Statement 1 does not logically follow from Statement 2. It is not evidence that Jesus had a special post-resurrection body. You may have stated it to support the idea that Jesus "defeated death," but once again that doesn't provide support for the claim he had a special post-resurrection body. Statement 3 is of no consequence--you're simply stating your belief and making an excuse, without evidence. It is just as fair for me to state that our "fleshly bodies" are our only home (meaning that our existence ends at death), and expect you to accept it at face value.
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Post by nathan on Mar 18, 2020 16:05:56 GMT -5
Paul wrote that flesh and blood or Regular human bodies/sins can NOT enter heaven. That was why, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye MUST be BORN AGAIN! to ENTER the kingdom of God." It was a temporary resurrection bodies of the Old and New Testament believers came out of the graves/Hades inner earth prison of Paradise AFTER Jesus had paid the ransom priced for them. Dan is CORRECT! "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable....It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 41&44). "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Thomas touched the Resurrection body of Christ with flesh and blood, eat, go through walls, appear and disappear at wills so, people can see, touch. That is the same kind of resurrection BODIES all the believers from the Old and New Testament in Christ/God will receive when he returns to be KING of kings to set up His ETERNAL kingdom and to rule the earth and Universe. You seem to be acknowledging the bodies of the saints that arose from the dead would indeed be visible, at least temporarily. ~~ Yes, temporarily... because we don't read very of their existence after that... The book of Acts doesn't mention their existence with the apostles or even with Jesus had stayed with them for 40 days after His resurrection. Perhaps, it was a sign of the bodily resurrection of ALL believers to come when Jesus returns.
However, other than conjecture (which is not evidence), what evidence do you have that these bodies could appear and disappear at will? We don't read about any of them existed after Jesus raised from the dead or the apostles mention about them in the book of Acts chapter 1.
You cannot fall back on the verses in Corinthians as you have yourself seem to have distinguished the temporary resurrection bodies from the spiritual body. If you are not distinguishing between the two then that means the spiritual body is indeed visible and Corinthians doesn't state that the spiritual body can appear and disappear at will. If you are distinguishing between the two and the spiritual body is invisible then they could not (at least temporarily) had the spiritual body Corinthians refers to. I Cor. is a permanently resurrection bodies when Jesus returns differently than the temporary bodies they received when the graves opened and dead believers bodies resurrected.
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 16:11:38 GMT -5
You seem to be acknowledging the bodies of the saints that arose from the dead would indeed be visible, at least temporarily. ~~ Yes, temporarily... because we don't read very of their existence after that... The book of Acts doesn't mention their existence with the apostles or even with Jesus had stayed with them for 40 days after His resurrection. Perhaps, it was a sign of the bodily resurrection of ALL believers to come when Jesus returns.
However, other than conjecture (which is not evidence), what evidence do you have that these bodies could appear and disappear at will?
We don't read about any of them existed after Jesus raised from the dead or the apostles mention about them in the book of Acts chapter 1.
You cannot fall back on the verses in Corinthians as you have yourself seem to have distinguished the temporary resurrection bodies from the spiritual body. If you are not distinguishing between the two then that means the spiritual body is indeed visible and Corinthians doesn't state that the spiritual body can appear and disappear at will. If you are distinguishing between the two and the spiritual body is invisible then they could not (at least temporarily) had the spiritual body Corinthians refers to. I Cor. is a permanently resurrection bodies when Jesus returns differently than the temporary bodies they received when the graves opened and dead believers bodies resurrected.No, that is not what I mean. If I correctly recall what STR has stated, STR has suggested that these resurrected bodies could appear at will to only whoever they chose to. This is what I mean by "these bodies could appear and disappear at will." Once again, what evidence do you have that these resurrected bodies (while they remained in their initial state) could appear and disappear at will?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 18, 2020 16:28:45 GMT -5
If indeed all those people did come out of their graves and if they had flesh & blood bodies like Jesus had, -would they have ascended into the sky like Jesus did?
If not, -where did they go? Btw, there is nothing that says resurrected bodies have blood. They don’t need it. But according to what Jesus said to his disciples and they were a frighten, thinking they were seeing a spirit. He said Peace be unto you. Jesus said in Luke 24:39. Behold my hands, and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see, for a spirit hath NOT flesh and bones, as ye see me have. This is redeemed resurrected bodies. Yes, they followed Jesus into heaven when he went the first time as he tells of in John 20:16-18, this was early at dawn. Then in John 20:19 it says the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when he appeared to his disciples. He had returned to earth. Then he ascended as in Acts 1. What difference does that any of make?
If all of those people rose from their graves & were walking around just as Jesus was supposed to risen and was seen, heard and even with a corporeal, material, tangible body that could be touched; -then why didn't the same have happened to those people as well?
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Post by fixit on Mar 18, 2020 16:58:40 GMT -5
I give up. I'm done. Sorry I ever replied to any of your ridiculous posts. Go join a UFO site and preach the 2x2 delusion there. See how far it gets you. Stop bothering us. Most of this thread is mumbo jumbo to me. My faith is spiritual, so it doesn't conflict with science or history, but it does conflict with much of the biblical interpretation of fundamentalist Christians. What do you mean by "2x2 delusion"?
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Post by nathan on Mar 18, 2020 18:12:04 GMT -5
No, that is not what I mean. If I correctly recall what STR has stated, STR has suggested that these resurrected bodies could appear at will to only whoever they chose to. This is what I mean by "these bodies could appear and disappear at will." Once again, what evidence do you have that these resurrected bodies (while they remained in their initial state) could appear and disappear at will? The Dead walked the Streets Matt 27:50-54 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” After Jesus Spirit is separated from his body (death) the first thing that happens is the veil is ripped. The veil was a thick curtain that separated the holy of holies from the Holy place. (The veil was 60 ft by 30 ft high and it took hundreds of people to maneuver it in place.) All three gospels mention this (Mt.27:51; Mk.15:38; Lk23:45). The veil is rent from the top to the bottom, something only God could do thus signifying access is available to all because of the death of Christ. Heb.7:11-19 God does this to approve of His sacrifice. The graves were opened after the death of Jesus, he paid the ransom price for the sins of humanity, His Spirit went to Hades for 3 days to set FREE the Old and New Testament souls trapped in Inner earth the realm of the dead because of sins since the time of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, prophets and so on... After Jesus came out of hades that he brought all of the SAVED believers with Him, and they appeared in the new resurrection temporary bodies through the Holy city to many.
After the resurrection Jesus said to Magdalene when she tried to hug him, "Touch me NOT! for I have NOT ascended to my Father in heaven." This is when Jesus brought these resurrected believers with him to be with the Father in heaven.
In the future believers who have died First and stay in heaven will receive their new resurrection bodies FIRST (Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2-3; 1 Cor. 15:12-58; 1 The. 4:16-17; Rev. 20:4-6). then those who live on the earth at the time of Jesus returns in a blink of an eyes will receive their resurrection bodies also.
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 18:28:07 GMT -5
No, that is not what I mean. If I correctly recall what STR has stated, STR has suggested that these resurrected bodies could appear at will to only whoever they chose to. This is what I mean by "these bodies could appear and disappear at will." Once again, what evidence do you have that these resurrected bodies (while they remained in their initial state) could appear and disappear at will? The Dead walked the Streets Matt 27:50-54 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” After Jesus Spirit is separated from his body (death) the first thing that happens is the veil is ripped. The veil was a thick curtain that separated the holy of holies from the Holy place. (The veil was 60 ft by 30 ft high and it took hundreds of people to maneuver it in place.) All three gospels mention this (Mt.27:51; Mk.15:38; Lk23:45). The veil is rent from the top to the bottom, something only God could do thus signifying access is available to all because of the death of Christ. Heb.7:11-19 God does this to approve of His sacrifice. The graves were opened after the death of Jesus, he paid the ransom price for the sins of humanity, His Spirit went to Hades for 3 days to set FREE the Old and New Testament souls trapped in Inner earth the realm of the dead because of sins since the time of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, prophets and so on... After Jesus came out of hades that he brought all of the SAVED believers with Him, and they appeared in the new resurrection temporary bodies through the Holy city to many.
After the resurrection Jesus said to Magdalene when she tried to hug him, "Touch me NOT! for I have NOT ascended to my Father in heaven." This is when Jesus brought these resurrected believers with him to be with the Father in heaven.
In the future believers who have died First and stay in heaven will receive their new resurrection bodies FIRST (Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2-3; 1 Cor. 15:12-58; 1 The. 4:16-17; Rev. 20:4-6). then those who live on the earth at the time of Jesus returns in a blink of an eyes will receive their resurrection bodies also.I don't think you understand my question--you certainly didn't answer it. Anyway, if the resurrected bodies were visible and touchable I'm still looking for an answer as to why the other gospels and a historical source or sources independent of the Bible didn't bother to record such an aberrant event?
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Post by nathan on Mar 18, 2020 18:43:00 GMT -5
The Dead walked the Streets Matt 27:50-54 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” After Jesus Spirit is separated from his body (death) the first thing that happens is the veil is ripped. The veil was a thick curtain that separated the holy of holies from the Holy place. (The veil was 60 ft by 30 ft high and it took hundreds of people to maneuver it in place.) All three gospels mention this (Mt.27:51; Mk.15:38; Lk23:45). The veil is rent from the top to the bottom, something only God could do thus signifying access is available to all because of the death of Christ. Heb.7:11-19 God does this to approve of His sacrifice. The graves were opened after the death of Jesus, he paid the ransom price for the sins of humanity, His Spirit went to Hades for 3 days to set FREE the Old and New Testament souls trapped in Inner earth the realm of the dead because of sins since the time of Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, prophets and so on... After Jesus came out of hades that he brought all of the SAVED believers with Him, and they appeared in the new resurrection temporary bodies through the Holy city to many.
After the resurrection Jesus said to Magdalene when she tried to hug him, "Touch me NOT! for I have NOT ascended to my Father in heaven." This is when Jesus brought these resurrected believers with him to be with the Father in heaven.
In the future believers who have died First and stay in heaven will receive their new resurrection bodies FIRST (Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2-3; 1 Cor. 15:12-58; 1 The. 4:16-17; Rev. 20:4-6). then those who live on the earth at the time of Jesus returns in a blink of an eyes will receive their resurrection bodies also.I don't think you understand my question--you certainly didn't answer it. Anyway, if the resurrected bodies were visible and touchable I'm still looking for an answer as to why the other gospels and a historical source or sources independent of the Bible didn't bother to record such an aberrant event? Very simple! the media controlled by the High Priest, and the Pharisees and the Romans officials.... They told their soldiers to say that the disciples of Jesus came during the night and stole his body! They silent anyone from saying any of these miracles were happening the dead walking and talking to people, the resurrection of Jesus. These things were well known and believed among Jesus apostles and disciples because He appeared before them and NOT the world.
Paul wrote I Cor. 15:1-8 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 19:12:49 GMT -5
Well, it’s pretty clear to me (and to anyone else I’m guessing) that Matthew 27 IS saying the earthquake occurred at the time of Jesus’ death. And the statement you’ve made about how securely the tombs were sealed just supports the statement I made in opposition to the claim made by you that it was common for wild animals/dogs to steal people’s bones, a point you have now conveniently ignored. Anyway, it is clear we are not going to come to any sort of agreement so I doubt I will reply anymore regarding this subject matter. I do think you are twisting yourself in knots though to defend the claim of an event which is highly improbable to have happened. Graves and tombs are 2 different things. It was “graves” that were opened. Jesus was buried in a rich man’s sepulchre/tomb. You’re the one not following here. I’m not twisting anything, but I know why you came to the conclusion you did, I used to think the same thing but it didn’t make sense because the earthquake opened Jesus’’ tomb/sepulchre. but I’ve learned since then that the Bible isn’t in sequence. It takes a bit of reading before and behind to get it put in right sequence. As to the tombs/sepulchres, only the rich had them. Average and poor people were wrapped in linen and buried in the ground. Likely since it was pretty rocky land around Jerusalem the graves might not all been so very deep. There weren’t regulations back in those days like these days. I have no idea why I backtracked on the tombs comment. Four translations I looked at say TOMBS, not GRAVES. It's the KJV that uses the word "graves", and contrary to popular belief among the friends and workers, it is NOT the most accurate English translation of the Bible. The NASB translation is among the most accurate (if not the most accurate) English translations and it says "tombs." I've looked at enough translations now to see that the KJV is in the minority in translating the word as "graves." So I was in the right to begin with. The fact that the tombs were heavily sealed makes the wild animals/dogs speculation irrelevant.
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Post by believingjesus on Mar 18, 2020 19:22:49 GMT -5
I don't think you understand my question--you certainly didn't answer it. Anyway, if the resurrected bodies were visible and touchable I'm still looking for an answer as to why the other gospels and a historical source or sources independent of the Bible didn't bother to record such an aberrant event? Very simple! the media controlled by the High Priest, and the Pharisees and the Romans officials.... They told their soldiers to say that the disciples of Jesus came during the night and stole his body! They silent anyone from saying any of these miracles were happening the dead walking and talking to people, the resurrection of Jesus. These things were well known and believed among Jesus apostles and disciples because He appeared before them and NOT the world.
Paul wrote I Cor. 15:1-8 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.I don't accept the Bible as a historically reliable source but for the sake of argument in this thread I am pretending to. It is true that as you say the Bible says "[t]hey told their soldiers to say that the disciples of Jesus came during the night and stole his body!" The rest is PURE conjecture on your part ("They silent[sic] anyone from saying any of these miracles were happening the dead walking and talking to people"). They might tell this to the common man but in practical terms it would be impossible to prevent all historians from making a record of this. Also, if it really happened why do all the other gospels make light of it by not bothering to record it at all? I Cor. 15:1-8 is irrelevant to the matter of the dead walking and being seen by many. The rest of your post basically lists who Jesus was seen by and in what order. To quote Matthew 27 again (NASB): 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27 states they appeared to many. Nowhere does it state that they appeared only to "saints," disciples and apostles as the Bible specifies about Jesus' resurrected body.
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Post by Dan on Mar 18, 2020 19:31:34 GMT -5
Well, a spiritual body is touchable, but it isn't flesh and blood, remember that Jacob wrestled with an angel (spiritual being). No difference in bodies except that one is perishable and the other is not. Jesus maintained his wounds as evidence, he wasn't still bleeding from them. Our physical bodies aren't immortal, they go back to dust. [Statement 1]: Jesus was an exception, the transfiguration of his flesh body was performed as evidence that he in fact defeated death. [Statement 2]: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). [Statement 3]: We don't understand the process, so it may be hard to wrap your head around it, but these flesh bodies are just temporary homes.
I think that STR was pointing out that Jesus in his spiritual body was able to penetrate walls/doors ( Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them )?
I already anticipated you would make Statement 1 and that is nothing but a gigantic case of special pleading--an error in argumentation/reasoning where an exception is claimed without evidence. If Statement 2 is meant to provide support for Statement 1, what you have committed is a non sequitur. Statement 1 does not logically follow from Statement 2. It is not evidence that Jesus had a special post-resurrection body. You may have stated it to support the idea that Jesus "defeated death," but once again that doesn't provide support for the claim he had a special post-resurrection body. Statement 3 is of no consequence--you're simply stating your belief and making an excuse, without evidence. It is just as fair for me to state that our "fleshly bodies" are our only home (meaning that our existence ends at death), and expect you to accept it at face value.
I'm not presenting an argument, but simply offering my opinion (interpretation) of Christ corporal body being transfigured into a spiritual one. If you prefer to believe that his physical body was simply revitalized and brought back to life like Lazarus was, then Jesus would still of been mortal, and he would have eventually died instead of ascending into heaven. The only objective evidence was observed by those who saw him post crucifixion. You seem intent on limiting it as a carnal event, but the spiritual aspect is identified separately, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44). It was necessary for Jesus to reappear as he was in order to be recognized and fulfill his prophecy, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this? Jesus answered them, Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days" (John 2:19). I'll spare you all the verses, but the bible says we are given new bodies... To be honest, if I had to spend eternity in the one I have, I might prefer to bypass heaven
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 18, 2020 20:27:59 GMT -5
Your friend perhaps is NOT CRAZY after all, the tracking device moves around in the body avoid being taken it out of the body. Some people have died once the implants after it removed from their bodies. These evil ET beings have an evil agenda from their creator Satan/Serpent on earth... There are good ET/The human looking angels the Venusians and from other planets coming to earth and Jesus Christ from Venus are here to help us to fight against these evil ETs and Satan on earth.
Dr. Roger K. Leir is one of the world's most important leaders in physical evidence research involving the field of Ufology. In this special session he will reveal scientific proof that WE ARE NOT ALONE. Dr. Leir is a podiatric surgeon, in private practice for the past 43 years and has written numerous books including The Aliens and the Scalpel, UFO Crash in Brazil, and Casebook Alien Implants.
New Startling Findings: Alien Implant Research. The metorite implants change the person DNA.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfltW3oqrik
Here are some good videos of Dr. Roger Leir removing Aliens implants in people. www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%7E%7E+Dr.+Roger+Leir+New+Startling+Findings%3A+Alien+Implant+Research. Dr. Roger Krevin Leir as a podiatrist, (that is a foot doctor)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Leir
<excerpts>
In 1995, Leir examined X-rays from a woman who believed she was an abductee. He later extracted two small metallic foreign objects from her, and also from a second patient.
The objects were analyzed by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, which determined that they were "composed of commonly found elements", such as iron or aluminum.
In describing some of these elements, the lab report made reference to the composition of meteors. Leir interpreted this to mean that the objects removed from his patients were
He came to believe the objects were devices implanted by aliens and "scientific proof of non-terrestrial experimentation on man".
Leir soon became prominent in the alien abduction and UFO communities. He hired a dentist, a radiologist and a general surgeon to assist him in his practice. Leir claimed the objects he removed from patients emitted “deep space frequency radio waves", had strange magnetic properties, or contained odd crystalline structures.[2]
According to skeptical investigator Joe Nickell, the "implants" Leir claimed to have discovered were most likely ordinary objects such as shards of glass or fragments of metal that become lodged in arms, hands, legs and feet due to accidental falls or barefoot walking.
When asked to provide a forensic medical institute with specimens or photos for analysis, Leir's associate, Derrel Sims, refused.
Of course meteors ARE extraterrestrial, (originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere.) However that doesn't mean they are sent by outer space aliens.
Meteors of all sizes fall to earth all the time; -some very small, others huge. When I was a child, we thought we had found one.
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Post by Annan on Mar 18, 2020 21:09:42 GMT -5
I give up. I'm done. Sorry I ever replied to any of your ridiculous posts. Go join a UFO site and preach the 2x2 delusion there. See how far it gets you. Stop bothering us. Most of this thread is mumbo jumbo to me. My faith is spiritual, so it doesn't conflict with science or history, but it does conflict with much of the biblical interpretation of fundamentalist Christians. What do you mean by "2x2 delusion"? To me, the 2x2 way is just as much of a delusion as every other religion. If Nathan is going to post his alien crap on a 2x2 thread, I think he should also post the 2x2 faith on a UFO/alien site. And see how they like it.
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Post by fixit on Mar 18, 2020 21:17:01 GMT -5
Most of this thread is mumbo jumbo to me. My faith is spiritual, so it doesn't conflict with science or history, but it does conflict with much of the biblical interpretation of fundamentalist Christians. What do you mean by "2x2 delusion"? To me, the 2x2 way is just as much of a delusion as every other religion. If Nathan is going to post his alien crap on a 2x2 thread, I think he should also post the 2x2 faith on a UFO/alien site. And see how they like it. Thanks. I get it. Interesting suggestion. (OOPS....did I just agree with a witch?)
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Post by Annan on Mar 18, 2020 21:21:27 GMT -5
To me, the 2x2 way is just as much of a delusion as every other religion. If Nathan is going to post his alien crap on a 2x2 thread, I think he should also post the 2x2 faith on a UFO/alien site. And see how they like it. Thanks. I get it. Interesting suggestion. (OOPS....did I just agree with a witch?) Quick delete your post! Too late. I quoted you. Can't deny it!
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Post by speak on Mar 19, 2020 2:17:05 GMT -5
I give up. I'm done. Sorry I ever replied to any of your ridiculous posts. Go join a UFO site and preach the 2x2 delusion there. See how far it gets you. Stop bothering us. Those thoughts have nothing to do with our fellowship so can you please not associate them or the author with us.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 19, 2020 2:17:07 GMT -5
To me, the 2x2 way is just as much of a delusion as every other religion. If Nathan is going to post his alien crap on a 2x2 thread, I think he should also post the 2x2 faith on a UFO/alien site. And see how they like it. Thanks. I get it. Interesting suggestion. (OOPS....did I just agree with a witch?) Which witch?
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Post by speak on Mar 19, 2020 2:25:52 GMT -5
Most of this thread is mumbo jumbo to me. My faith is spiritual, so it doesn't conflict with science or history, but it does conflict with much of the biblical interpretation of fundamentalist Christians. What do you mean by "2x2 delusion"? To me, the 2x2 way is just as much of a delusion as every other religion. If Nathan is going to post his alien crap on a 2x2 thread, I think he should also post the 2x2 faith on a UFO/alien site. And see how they like it. And we would see that what your belief is just as much a delusion.
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Post by Annan on Mar 19, 2020 8:02:07 GMT -5
To me, the 2x2 way is just as much of a delusion as every other religion. If Nathan is going to post his alien crap on a 2x2 thread, I think he should also post the 2x2 faith on a UFO/alien site. And see how they like it. And we would see that what your belief is just as much a delusion. And I'm sure a lot of people do think I'm delusional. It's obvious from some posts on TMB. My father thinks reiki and my supposed psychic abilities is his satan tricking me. So be it.
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