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Post by Get off of TMB on Oct 5, 2019 12:41:58 GMT -5
What are some regional differences? I know it varies with individual families.
Some on the west coast would call brother workers uncles and sister workers aunts. Nothing wrong with that but we didn't do that in the east. During the second world war, some in the east attended meetings on the west coast leading to greater awareness of regional variation. Increase in travel and communication made the differences more pronounced. Social media around 2005 began to possibly reduce the differences. The deaths of older overseers and saints may have led to a lessening of rules. Younger people in the once more traditional areas visit the more relaxed areas and question the traditions of their ancestors. And the beat goes on.......
I have attended both Virginia conventions and the crowd doesn't quieten down until the brothers sit down on the platform. Some conventions are as quiet as mice 15 minutes before convention begins.
When you move into another area, it takes some time to learn the customs. I remember about 20 years ago attending Wednesday night meeting in a part where all the men wore ties. I didn't wear one and a few more stopped wearing them.
Local traditions were formed by a number of issues:early workers, early families, how long some have been professing, how people outside of the fellowship feel about an issue, etc.. A meeting full of college kids and military families is going to be different from a meeting of 2nd and 3rd generation saints where the youngest is 70, for example.
The group is changing ever so slowly. It has to in order to survive. Older ones are entering eternity. Younger brother workers getting responsibility are picking their battles with young people. When today's teenagers are retired, other than meeting in homes and a homeless ministry, we wouldn't recognize it.
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julio
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by julio on Oct 5, 2019 13:01:39 GMT -5
There are regional differences in any church or fellowship, business or college, etc. That's the way the world runs. Some areas men wear three-piece suits to work, others wear Hawaiian shirts and shorts. Go to Alabama, and everyone says "Yes Ma'am". I don't know why this is much of an issue. We know there are differences in culture, tradition, etc. Some end their testimonies with "in Jesus name". Others say "Amen" after every prayer, some areas you don't hear that. Some use wine in communion, others grape juice. I heard a wise and trusted older brother speak about unity in the fellowship, many years ago, and I've always remembered his sharing about what we are united in: Common goals (fellowship), common spirit, common love for the Lord, etc. Uniting thoughts I appreciate!
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 5, 2019 19:50:14 GMT -5
There are regional differences in any church or fellowship, business or college, etc. That's the way the world runs. Some areas men wear three-piece suits to work, others wear Hawaiian shirts and shorts. Go to Alabama, and everyone says "Yes Ma'am". I don't know why this is much of an issue. We know there are differences in culture, tradition, etc. Some end their testimonies with "in Jesus name". Others say "Amen" after every prayer, some areas you don't hear that. Some use wine in communion, others grape juice. I heard a wise and trusted older brother speak about unity in the fellowship, many years ago, and I've always remembered his sharing about what we are united in: Common goals (fellowship), common spirit, common love for the Lord, etc. Uniting thoughts I appreciate! Some confuse Unity with Uniformity. They’re two separate things
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Post by joanna on Oct 5, 2019 20:05:05 GMT -5
It is discerning of you to have identified variations/inconsistencies within the 2x2's Get off of TMB On a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you consider these 2x2 variations/inconsistencies are, when compared with the huge number of variations/inconsistencies between all of the Christian beliefs?
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Post by Grant on Oct 5, 2019 20:28:02 GMT -5
It is discerning of you to have identified variations/inconsistencies within the 2x2's Get off of TMB On a scale of 1 to 10, how important do you consider these 2x2 variations/inconsistencies are, when compared with the huge number of variations/inconsistencies between all of the Christian beliefs? Christianity does not claim to be the same the world over, the 2x2s do.
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Post by joanna on Oct 5, 2019 20:33:15 GMT -5
GrantThen what is the meaning of this verse if Christians vary in their beliefs and ways of worship? Hebrews 13:8 King James Version (KJV) 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
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Post by Grant on Oct 5, 2019 20:48:06 GMT -5
Jesus is the same. It doesn't say man is. Fundamental beliefs don't either, but styles of worship have.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2019 23:19:24 GMT -5
Jesus is the same. It doesn't say man is. Fundamental beliefs don't either, but styles of worship have. well shouldn't we aspire to be like our Lord?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2019 1:07:24 GMT -5
Jesus is the same. It doesn't say man is. Fundamental beliefs don't either, but styles of worship have. well shouldn't we aspire to be like our Lord? interesting. He was able to grant eternal life.
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Post by joanna on Oct 6, 2019 3:48:54 GMT -5
Grant . From the perspective of a believer, did Jesus expect there to be so many different versions of Christianity and so much confusion?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 12:22:21 GMT -5
What are some regional differences? I know it varies with individual families. Some on the west coast would call brother workers uncles and sister workers aunts. Nothing wrong with that but we didn't do that in the east. During the second world war, some in the east attended meetings on the west coast leading to greater awareness of regional variation. Increase in travel and communication made the differences more pronounced. Social media around 2005 began to possibly reduce the differences. The deaths of older overseers and saints may have led to a lessening of rules. Younger people in the once more traditional areas visit the more relaxed areas and question the traditions of their ancestors. And the beat goes on....... I have attended both Virginia conventions and the crowd doesn't quieten down until the brothers sit down on the platform. Some conventions are as quiet as mice 15 minutes before convention begins. When you move into another area, it takes some time to learn the customs. I remember about 20 years ago attending Wednesday night meeting in a part where all the men wore ties. I didn't wear one and a few more stopped wearing them. Local traditions were formed by a number of issues:early workers, early families, how long some have been professing, how people outside of the fellowship feel about an issue, etc.. A meeting full of college kids and military families is going to be different from a meeting of 2nd and 3rd generation saints where the youngest is 70, for example. The group is changing ever so slowly. It has to in order to survive. Older ones are entering eternity. Younger brother workers getting responsibility are picking their battles with young people. When today's teenagers are retired, other than meeting in homes and a homeless ministry, we wouldn't recognize it. Following traditions and rites is what the Catholics have done for thousand plus years. This is what has killed the spiritual life out of that church; and as Bob Williston mentioned the other day the Catholics admit they don’t practice their biblical observations because they do have their rites and traditions. I think this has been a detriment to many churches, in establishing their traditions there is little room left to be open to the spontaneity of a new revelation to someone by the Holy Spirit. Thus is how the Holy Spirit gets left out of the church service/meetings.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 12:27:24 GMT -5
Grant . From the perspective of a believer, did Jesus expect there to be so many different versions of Christianity and so much confusion? I think he did, that’s what Paul was covering in Ephesians 4 where it says Jesus gave unto them Prophets, Apostles, pastors, teachers, etc. “ For the perfecting of the saints.” Also it says that it is to bring the saints “Till we ALL come IN THE UNITY of the FAITH and of the KNOWLEDGE of the SON of GOD.”
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 12:30:48 GMT -5
Jesus is the same. It doesn't say man is. Fundamental beliefs don't either, but styles of worship have. Styles of worship become traditions. And following traditions and rites can suck the life right out of the church, The Catholic Church is a very good example of loosing life due to traditions and rites.
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Post by snow on Oct 6, 2019 13:26:30 GMT -5
Well I personally don't think Jesus tried to start Christianity in the first place. He was a devout Jew. He wanted to change his people back to what they once were, in his opinion. From the very beginning there were different beliefs and branches of Christianity. The RCC were the most powerful and they tried very hard to get rid of all other branches/denominations. Of course all it takes is one person like William Irvine and others, to have a different idea of how a true Christian church should look and operate for another denomination to be born.
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Post by snow on Oct 6, 2019 13:29:17 GMT -5
Jesus is the same. It doesn't say man is. Fundamental beliefs don't either, but styles of worship have. Styles of worship become traditions. And following traditions and rites can suck the life right out of the church, The Catholic Church is a very good example of loosing life due to traditions and rites. Yet my daughter's devout Catholic mother in law tells me that it is due to the traditions and the rites that make their church alive and the only true church. Different ideas about what makes it right is why there are so many different denominations. She fully believes that no other church is right and it was absolutely imperative for her children to be married in the Catholic church or she would not recognize their union as 'married'.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 6, 2019 14:02:01 GMT -5
Styles of worship become traditions. And following traditions and rites can suck the life right out of the church, The Catholic Church is a very good example of loosing life due to traditions and rites. Yet my daughter's devout Catholic mother in law tells me that it is due to the traditions and the rites that make their church alive and the only true church. Different ideas about what makes it right is why there are so many different denominations. She fully believes that no other church is right and it was absolutely imperative for her children to be married in the Catholic church or she would not recognize their union as 'married'. So, she would not recognize Moses as being married because the Church Universal didn't exit in those days? Or how about King David?
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Post by nathan on Oct 6, 2019 14:47:29 GMT -5
Grant . From the perspective of a believer, did Jesus expect there to be so many different versions of Christianity and so much confusion? Jesus truth and way was NEVER meant to bring chaos and confusion like 40,000 plus Christianity denominations. Jesus gave us the perfect formula when he said, "I am the Way the truth and Life, no man comes to the Father but THROUGH me!." Confusion and chaos come when they don't follow what Jesus teaches and He did NOT SENT them or represented Him as His messengers. Therefore, Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU! Depart from me ye workers of Iniquity!
Jesus teaches this in Matthew 7:13-24 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
~~ One of the main reasons, Jesus did NOT KNOW them in the Judgement day, because HE and the Holy Spirit did NOT send them out as their servants/preachers of the gospel with the gospel of Salvation. Therefore, ALL of their good preaching, good works and hard labors are good for NOTHING!
They preached a different Jesus, different Truth, and Way of Jesus, which He and the Holy Spirit did NOT recognize and approve of.
Jesus Christ the same as yesterday, today and forever.... His Truth and Way and the doctrines that Jesus taught will always be the same in every generation because it works!
Study Matthew 10: William Irvine/Faith Mission preacher, Fred Hughes/Faith Mission preacher and John Long. Going in Faith Lines. John Long converted to preach the Faith lines in 1898.
*** William Irvine asked John Long "When did God changed this?" John Long replied, "I supposed it has never changed. " (ref. Doug Parker) *** William Irvine was discipline by the Faith Mission in 1898.
~~ The Division of 1914-1917 : William Irvine LEFT as the leader/worker and fellowship of the 2x2 Church.
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2x2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices.
They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others.
The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
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Post by nathan on Oct 6, 2019 15:08:42 GMT -5
Styles of worship become traditions. And following traditions and rites can suck the life right out of the church, The Catholic Church is a very good example of loosing life due to traditions and rites. Yet my daughter's devout Catholic mother in law tells me that it is due to the traditions and the rites that make their church alive and the only true church. Different ideas about what makes it right is why there are so many different denominations. She fully believes that no other church is right and it was absolutely imperative for her children to be married in the Catholic church or she would not recognize their union as 'married'. In the book of Revelation we read about 7 churches existed in 95 A.D.... and MANY more churches/assembly of believers existed before them the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippians, Colossians, and those in Rome and scattered in the world and so on... How in the world can the RCC claim they are the ONLY ONE True church? when there were MANY churches and were guided by the apostles NOT the bishops of Rome.
The RCC church is NOTHING like the Church that Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century church started. They have the Bishops, Pope, Cardinals, priests ministry. Building churches, worshiping the saints, Mary the mother of Jesus. A lot of Pagans rituals practice within the churches.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 16:16:44 GMT -5
Yet my daughter's devout Catholic mother in law tells me that it is due to the traditions and the rites that make their church alive and the only true church. Different ideas about what makes it right is why there are so many different denominations. She fully believes that no other church is right and it was absolutely imperative for her children to be married in the Catholic church or she would not recognize their union as 'married'. In the book of Revelation we read about 7 churches existed in 95 A.D.... and MANY more churches/assembly of believers existed before them the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippians, Colossians, and those in Rome and scattered in the world and so on... How in the world can the RCC claim they are the ONLY ONE True church? when there were MANY churches and were guided by the apostles NOT the bishops of Rome.
The RCC church is NOTHING like the Church that Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century church started. They have the Bishops, Pope, Cardinals, priests ministry. Building churches, worshiping the saints, Mary the mother of Jesus. A lot of Pagans rituals practice within the churches.
I heard that since Pope Francis is head, they don’t venerate Mary any more!
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Post by nathan on Oct 6, 2019 17:42:52 GMT -5
In the book of Revelation we read about 7 churches existed in 95 A.D.... and MANY more churches/assembly of believers existed before them the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippians, Colossians, and those in Rome and scattered in the world and so on... How in the world can the RCC claim they are the ONLY ONE True church? when there were MANY churches and were guided by the apostles NOT the bishops of Rome.
The RCC church is NOTHING like the Church that Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century church started. They have the Bishops, Pope, Cardinals, priests ministry. Building churches, worshiping the saints, Mary the mother of Jesus. A lot of Pagans rituals practice within the churches.
I heard that since Pope Francis is head, they don’t venerate Mary any more! Yes, he is the head of the RCC not but majority of the Romans Catholic believers around the world will continue to worship Mary, the mother of God/Jesus because it has been a LONG, LONG tradition for the RCC more than 1500 yrs. Catholics are not officially told to worship Mary, but millions of them do worship her. Historically, this practice began in roughly the fifth century. There is no evidence of Christians worshiping saints or Mary before the fourth century.
evidenceforchristianity.org/was-mary-worshipped-by-the-early-christian-church-in-250-ad-as-my-catholic-friend-claims/
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Post by Get off of TMB on Oct 6, 2019 19:24:15 GMT -5
Catholicism has too many rituals for me. Too complicated.Not for me.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 19:25:11 GMT -5
I heard that since Pope Francis is head, they don’t venerate Mary any more! Yes, he is the head of the RCC not but majority of the Romans Catholic believers around the world will continue to worship Mary, the mother of God/Jesus because it has been a LONG, LONG tradition for the RCC more than 1500 yrs. Catholics are not officially told to worship Mary, but millions of them do worship her. Historically, this practice began in roughly the fifth century. There is no evidence of Christians worshiping saints or Mary before the fourth century.
evidenceforchristianity.org/was-mary-worshipped-by-the-early-christian-church-in-250-ad-as-my-catholic-friend-claims/
It’s my understanding that the Pope has had this discontinued due to the fact that they are trying to gain people of all other religions into their church and many religions and individuals object very highly to worshipping Mary.
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Post by nathan on Oct 6, 2019 19:51:54 GMT -5
It’s my understanding that the Pope has had this discontinued due to the fact that they are trying to gain people of all other religions into their church and many religions and individuals object very highly to worshipping Mary. Here is an article I found which the Pope Francis has said the opposite than what you wrote, " It’s my understanding that the Pope has had this discontinued due to the fact that they are trying to gain people of all other religions into their church and many religions and individuals object very highly to worshipping Mary."
The Pope challenges Biblical Christianity: On September 2, 2014 — Pope Francis openly stated from his Twitter account that any Christian who does not feel that the Virgin Mary is his or her mother is an “orphan”. Pope Francis is essentially saying that anyone who will not worship Mary (as their “Mother”) is not a real Christian — yet there is not ONE scripture that sustains this. www.deonvsearth.com/pope-francis-christians-who-dont-worship-mary-are-orphans/
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 20:32:12 GMT -5
It’s my understanding that the Pope has had this discontinued due to the fact that they are trying to gain people of all other religions into their church and many religions and individuals object very highly to worshipping Mary. Here is an article I found which the Pope Francis has said the opposite than what you wrote, " It’s my understanding that the Pope has had this discontinued due to the fact that they are trying to gain people of all other religions into their church and many religions and individuals object very highly to worshipping Mary."
The Pope challenges Biblical Christianity: On September 2, 2014 — Pope Francis openly stated from his Twitter account that any Christian who does not feel that the Virgin Mary is his or her mother is an “orphan”. Pope Francis is essentially saying that anyone who will not worship Mary (as their “Mother”) is not a real Christian — yet there is not ONE scripture that sustains this. www.deonvsearth.com/pope-francis-christians-who-dont-worship-mary-are-orphans/I got a bad perimeter off that site! I heard the tape where Pope Francis himself spoke about this and other changes that he was instituting in order to make more members for the Catholic Church. This is about the push to become one world religion. He even welcomes gays, Muslims and Buddhist. The tape was shown by Amir Tsarfati in his speech about one world religion- one world government.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 6, 2019 20:33:05 GMT -5
Btw, considering Mary as one’s mother doesn’t really mean one is to worship her!
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Post by speak on Oct 6, 2019 21:06:19 GMT -5
Grant . From the perspective of a believer, did Jesus expect there to be so many different versions of Christianity and so much confusion? No they should all be the same as He in the ways of doing to others apart from miracles and they should all be one in Him and His doctrine, clearly that's not the case.
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Post by snow on Oct 7, 2019 13:10:58 GMT -5
Yet my daughter's devout Catholic mother in law tells me that it is due to the traditions and the rites that make their church alive and the only true church. Different ideas about what makes it right is why there are so many different denominations. She fully believes that no other church is right and it was absolutely imperative for her children to be married in the Catholic church or she would not recognize their union as 'married'. So, she would not recognize Moses as being married because the Church Universal didn't exit in those days? Or how about King David? I didn't say it was logical...
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Post by snow on Oct 7, 2019 13:12:56 GMT -5
Yet my daughter's devout Catholic mother in law tells me that it is due to the traditions and the rites that make their church alive and the only true church. Different ideas about what makes it right is why there are so many different denominations. She fully believes that no other church is right and it was absolutely imperative for her children to be married in the Catholic church or she would not recognize their union as 'married'. In the book of Revelation we read about 7 churches existed in 95 A.D.... and MANY more churches/assembly of believers existed before them the churches at Corinth, Ephesus, Philippians, Colossians, and those in Rome and scattered in the world and so on... How in the world can the RCC claim they are the ONLY ONE True church? when there were MANY churches and were guided by the apostles NOT the bishops of Rome.
The RCC church is NOTHING like the Church that Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century church started. They have the Bishops, Pope, Cardinals, priests ministry. Building churches, worshiping the saints, Mary the mother of Jesus. A lot of Pagans rituals practice within the churches.
I have no idea. But then Christians think they are the only true religion yet there were many religions before it came into existence. It's just people believing what they've been told and not questioning is my theory.
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