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Post by mountain on Oct 6, 2024 12:19:01 GMT -5
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23) This simply demonstrates a virgin giving birth to a human being son, whose NAME is Emmanuel meaning 'God with us!' It does not mean that Jesus is the Almighty God but that God is accompanying or favouring the relationship. In no way is the statement saying that Jesus is God himself. During WW II the German Army had 'Gott Mit Uns' (God With Us) embossed on their belt buckles. This was to give the image that they had God with them in their quest. It did not mean that the German Army was God!
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). On his ascension to Heaven, God the Father, gave Jesus his well deserved inheritance which included all power and authority in Heaven and on Earth. The human being Jesus, now in his glorified body, retains this position at the right hand of God to whom he remains subservient to. Once he has defeated all of his enemies, the last of which is death, Jesus hands back this power and authority to his Father and his God.
The OT and Jesus make it clear that persons in authority, mighty men, the prophets who spoke the word of God, etc., were referred to as Gods! By virtue of the position that Jesus holds today, Jesus is indeed a Mighty God, an everlasting Father and Prince of Peace, BUT he is NOT the Almighty God who is Jesus's God and Jesus's Father.
Psalm 82:
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
[/i] "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds... unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom" Hebrews 1:2&8). . See previous reply. Surely the penny is beginning to drop?? Hath in these latter days God has spoken unto us by his Son.' So Jesus only spoke in NT times? Had Jesus been present in the OT and spoken as some make out, this statement would be invalid. The writer of Hebrews makes it very clear that previously God spoke through his Holy Prophets.If Jesus were not part of the Godhead, he'd have no authority or power to redeem or judge anyone. You are essentially worshiping a man who cannot save anyone. But Jesus descended from heaven prior to ascending back to the right hand of the Father (John 3:13). He was divine from the onset, but the Messiah had to be made flesh & blood to liberate and free the repentant from sin (Luke 4:18-21).
Godhead is a red herring. It is well recognised that the meaning of the word is 'Godly' or 'Godliness' which dwelt fully in Jesus. God gave Jesus the power to forgive sins, just as he gave Jesus the power to work miracles. Remember it wasn't Jesus himself who was forgiving the sins but his Heavenly Father through him. Jesus declared that the works that he spoke and the deeds that he did, were not his own but the Father that worketh in him. Furthermore, we are commanded to forgive others their tresspasses against us, in order that God will forgive our trespasses. This is no light matter. it forms an important part of the Lord's Prayer which Jesus gave us as an example to pray. I think you need to stop listening to the logic and beliefs of the Pharisees and start believing what God and Jesus actually say. Once you do that, without adding to it or imagining thigs into it, simply accepting it as would a little child, then it will be added unto you for righteousness sake. Unfortunately very few do this.
[/quote] PS I will be away for the next week or so and will not have access to this site. If needs be I will make replies once I return home. |
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Post by mountain on Oct 6, 2024 12:37:48 GMT -5
If one checks carefully, Jesus called himself the "Son of Man", and it was others who referred to him as the Son of God. He came and served as the Son of Man, that was his function on earth, a lowly servant. But Jesus descended from on high, forsaking all to become our Savior, sacrificing himself for sin. If Jesus proclaimed himself to be the Son of God from the onset, his ministry wouldn't have lasted 3 days. They tried to stone him when he just hinted of it, and they finally did kill him when he did proclaim it. Is not the Son of God not a human being term?
"Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth." (Luke 22:67-71) The Christ basically means 'The Messiah' a human being prophesied in the OT. However he was conceived of the workings of the Holy Spirit. Notice Jesus declared himself to be the Son of God which the Pharisees understood to be a human being, NOT a celestial being. Like the Moslems today they had no concept of God having a human being (begotten) son."Jesus did reveal his identity to those he could trust, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-18). Dan, for goodness sake, READ the Bible and go by what it says! Jesus did NOT reveal himself as the Son of God to Peter. It was Jesus's father in Heaven which did this. Because of the source of the revelation Jesus was quite excited about it, making a big deal of it.
Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36) And the best testimony came from the Father himself.. On the mount of transfiguration "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:35). When he was baptized, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17).
Son, beloved Son, not God or part of a so called trinity, but all clearly by the context, a human being Son. Jesus was accused of Blasphemy because when he said the was the son of God, the culture of the Jews (and indeed many others) was that a son was equal to his father because in time he would inherit his father's position and estate. They also saw the equation of a human being with their concept of God as being outrageous and regarded this as an offence against God (Blasphemy) Yet these same Pharisees, early in Christ's ministry sent Nicodemus from the Sanhedrin at night, fully aware that Jesus must have been sent by God.
John 3
1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Oh the hypocrisy
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 6, 2024 17:12:25 GMT -5
The Jews denied Jesus Divinity or His Godhead because they didn’t believe he was God the I AM that I AM, who spoke, guide, assist and protect the Children of Israel in the Old Testament. Read John 8:56-59; Reference to Exodus 3:14; Isah 43:23; Coll 1:17; Rev.1:7-8. Jesus went to explain himself that he is God of the Old Testament in John 10: 34-42. That was one of the main reasons the Pharisees tried to kill/Stone Jesus to death according to the laws of Moses, as a blasphemer! A son of man tried to claim as the Son of God is His Father making himself EQUAL with God/Father and Son relationship. Jesus said It is NOT written in your laws I SAID “Ye are gods!” In Genesis 1:26 God Elohim/plural or the Godhead said, “Let us, create man in our imagine and likeness! The Godhead is Eternal God, therefore, our souls are Eternal like God! Jesus “Ye are gods” because My Father and Myself created you like us/eternal God. When Jesus returns we shall be changed from mortal beings in Immortal beings just like the Godhead= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit as Immortal beings/Eternal God, which THEY CREATED Adam and Eve before Fallen from grace in the Garden of Eden. Read I Cor. 15: 11-28. The Godhead/ God the Father, Christ the Lord our Savior and the Holy Spirit are ETERNAL. Mountain, you are so confused and NOT fully understand the Godhead clearly. You only understand the half truth about Jesus the Son of man and the son of God just like the Pharisees. You get Jesus mixed up 33 1/2 years on earth as the son of man and son of God, His time in heaven as the Eternal Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Read John 1:1-14. In John chapters 15-17 Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit coming down from to continue His gospel work with the apostles and believers to the time of His returns to establish His eternal kingdom on earth 1000 years with the true believers. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2024 20:12:57 GMT -5
If one checks carefully, Jesus called himself the "Son of Man", and it was others who referred to him as the Son of God. There are many scriptures Jesus claimed He is both the Son of God or God and the Son of man because He is Both God and man. John 8:56-59 He is eternal the I AM God who spoke to Abraham in Genesis chapters 17-19 face to face in a human body about the birth of his son Issac. Jesus did not say that. God said that. The Bible does not say it was "Jesus". it says "he". You have to be coached by someone else to make such a statement -- which is exactly where you learned that from. We have no record of Jesus calling himself any one of those names. He called himself the "son of Man". The Bible doesn't say "Jesus", it says "he". That is NOT Jesus speaking -- someone else is calling him "he". Prior to that, in verse 14, he was called a "son of man". Anyway, if it was him speaking, he didn't call himself God, he called himself the "word" of god, like the press secretary is the word of the president. Like the overseer of overseers, when he speaks, it's God's final ruling, and god isn't going to allow him to make a mistake. Unless you are the final, real life Messiah come to clean up the folly of Christianity. Welcome to your foretold role. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2024 20:19:35 GMT -5
If one checks carefully, Jesus called himself the "Son of Man", and it was others who referred to him as the Son of God. He came and served as the Son of Man, that was his function on earth, a lowly servant. But Jesus descended from on high, forsaking all to become our Savior, sacrificing himself for sin. If Jesus proclaimed himself to be the Son of God from the onset, his ministry wouldn't have lasted 3 days. They tried to stone him when he just hinted of it, and they finally did kill him when he did proclaim it. "Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth." (Luke 22:67-71) "Jesus did reveal his identity to those he could trust, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-18). Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36) And the best testimony came from the Father himself.. On the mount of transfiguration "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:35). When he was baptized, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17).
If I don't believe in the Trinity, will I just go to hell regardless? |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 6, 2024 22:11:11 GMT -5
There are many scriptures Jesus claimed He is both the Son of God or God and the Son of man because He is Both God and man. John 8:56-59 He is eternal the I AM God who spoke to Abraham in Genesis chapters 17-19 face to face in a human body about the birth of his son Issac. Jesus did not say that. God said that. The Bible does not say it was "Jesus". it says "he". You have to be coached by someone else to make such a statement -- which is exactly where you learned that from. We have no record of Jesus calling himself any one of those names. He called himself the "son of Man". The Bible doesn't say "Jesus", it says "he". That is NOT Jesus speaking -- someone else is calling him "he". Prior to that, in verse 14, he was called a "son of man". Anyway, if it was him speaking, he didn't call himself God, he called himself the "word" of god, like the press secretary is the word of the president. Like the overseer of overseers, when he speaks, it's God's final ruling, and god isn't going to allow him to make a mistake. Unless you are the final, real life Messiah come to clean up the folly of Christianity. Welcome to your foretold role. 🤭 You are out of it. You still stuck with the mentality like the unbelieving Jews and the Pharisees, Jesus the son of man side of his life 33 1/2 years on earth. Study the Divinity of Jesus prior to His incarnation as God the Adonai, the Lord, the IAM that I AM God in the Old Testament from the garden to Eden to Daniel time then perhaps, you will understand the Divine/God side of Him. We have plenty records in the Old Testament of Jesus names which He was known of. Just google! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2024 22:30:39 GMT -5
You are out of it. You still stuck with the mentality like the unbelieving Jews and the Pharisees, Jesus the son of man side of his life 33 1/2 years on earth. Study the Divinity of Jesus prior to His incarnation as God the Adonai, the Lord, the IAM that I AM God in the Old Testament from the garden to Eden to Daniel time. Study how? |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 6, 2024 22:35:01 GMT -5
You are out of it. You still stuck with the mentality like the unbelieving Jews and the Pharisees, Jesus the son of man side of his life 33 1/2 years on earth. Study the Divinity of Jesus prior to His incarnation as God the Adonai, the Lord, the IAM that I AM God in the Old Testament from the garden to Eden to Daniel time. Study how? Go to gotquestions.com. They have answers to almost any subjects concern on Jesus, list of Jesus names in the Old Testament, his Divinity, Godhead, Jesus the I AM that I AM God, the Trinity and so on. I have learned a lot of different subjects from them. Check it out. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2024 22:41:31 GMT -5
Go to gotquestions.com. They have answers to almost any subjects concern on Jesus, list of Jesus names in the Old Testament, his Divinity, Godhead, Jesus the I AM that I AM God, the Trinity and so on. I have learned a lot of subjects from them. Check it out. I know where you got it all. Would it save my soul? |
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 6, 2024 22:44:43 GMT -5
Go to gotquestions.com. They have answers to almost any subjects concern on Jesus, list of Jesus names in the Old Testament, his Divinity, Godhead, Jesus the I AM that I AM God, the Trinity and so on. I have learned a lot of subjects from them. Check it out. I know where you got it all. Would it save my soul? Yes, it will help you to know and understand Jesus better, it’s He who SAVES us because He is part of the Godhead. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 6, 2024 22:56:20 GMT -5
He came and served as the Son of Man, that was his function on earth, a lowly servant. But Jesus descended from on high, forsaking all to become our Savior, sacrificing himself for sin. If Jesus proclaimed himself to be the Son of God from the onset, his ministry wouldn't have lasted 3 days. They tried to stone him when he just hinted of it, and they finally did kill him when he did proclaim it. "Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth." (Luke 22:67-71) "Jesus did reveal his identity to those he could trust, "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-18). Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36) And the best testimony came from the Father himself.. On the mount of transfiguration "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:35). When he was baptized, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17).
If I don't believe in the Trinity, will I just go to hell regardless? I doubt that a believer would perish for not being able to comprehend a triune Godhead. I imagine a person can believe and follow what Christ taught without recognizing who he was. The trinity is a difficult concept for many to grasp. Not believing that Jesus is our Savior and redeemer via his sacrifice would be troublesome though, Maryhig doesn't believe salvation has anything to do with Christ, she's convinced she can justify herself and qualify for heaven on her own.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2024 23:16:08 GMT -5
I know where you got it all. Would it save my soul? Yes, it will help you to know and understand Jesus better, it’s He who SAVES us because He is part of the Godhead. So he won't save me if I don't know that? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 6, 2024 23:18:55 GMT -5
If I don't believe in the Trinity, will I just go to hell regardless? I doubt that a believer would perish for not being able to comprehend a triune Godhead. I imagine a person can believe and follow what Christ taught without recognizing who he was. The trinity is a difficult concept for many to grasp. Not believing that Jesus is our Savior and redeemer via his sacrifice would be troublesome though, Maryhig doesn't believe salvation has anything to do with Christ, she's convinced she can justify herself and qualify for heaven on her own.
Do you know who added the "trinity" to Christian doctrine? |
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Post by Dan on Oct 6, 2024 23:42:32 GMT -5
Godhead is a red herring. It is well recognised that the meaning of the word is 'Godly' or 'Godliness' which dwelt fully in Jesus. God gave Jesus the power to forgive sins, just as he gave Jesus the power to work miracles. Remember it wasn't Jesus himself who was forgiving the sins but his Heavenly Father through him. Jesus declared that the works that he spoke and the deeds that he did, were not his own but the Father that worketh in him. Furthermore, we are commanded to forgive others their tresspasses against us, in order that God will forgive our trespasses. This is no light matter. it forms an important part of the Lord's Prayer which Jesus gave us as an example to pray. I think you need to stop listening to the logic and beliefs of the Pharisees and start believing what God and Jesus actually say. Once you do that, without adding to it or imagining thigs into it, simply accepting it as would a little child, then it will be added unto you for righteousness sake. Unfortunately very few do this. No, the Godhead is clearly defined in the bible, you can't separate the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... And what of the Holy Spirit, do you also believe He is separate from the Father and has no part of the Godhead?
I don't uphold the beliefs of the Pharisees, they demanded the crucifixion of Christ because he claimed to be the Son of God and that was blasphemy. Those here who deny his divinity and that he was the Father's only begotten Son would seem to have more in common with the Pharisees!
Jesus told Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). You claim Jesus had no kingdom until he inherited it after death. How do you square that?
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Post by tulip2 on Oct 7, 2024 1:02:01 GMT -5
An impressive response mountain. You’ve got it all figured out, which must be intellectually very satisfying and give you great peace of mind. Here are a few questions and responses. Q. With such an assertive line of reasoning, are you able to maintain an open mind in case, just on the off chance, something you have concluded does not quite align with God’s truth/wisdom in the bible? The reason I ask this, and it’s nothing personal because I don’t know you at all, is that over long years we have observed a serious flaw in human (used to include man’s, woman’s and everything else’s) reasoning/logic based on a confidence in our intellectual abilities to decide on some belief as incontrovertibly true – according to us. But a belief not aligned with God’s truth, which human pride holds us to. Atheism is one example. Nathan’s beliefs on hollow Venus are another. If only he had an open mind for the relevant correction of this strange but undoubtedly deeply held conviction he has. Alas! It's due to having an open mind that I am where I am at. Many years of prayer, experience, examination and relying on being led by the Holy Spirit rather than man. Please point out ONE thing that I have written over my last couple of posts, that you think is wrong and let us explore it with honesty, truth, sincerity and with an open mind. A great attempt to deflect my beliefs without singling out a single statement which you believe to be wrong and why! You appear to be dismissing my position through ignorance rather than knowledge.Q. How are you going with following in Christ’s footsteps? From knowing something of human nature I would expect when you first had that epiphany of the need to follow Jesus, you started a long way from where you should have been. Undoubtedly much closer know, so my question really is, how close is close enough and what if, at that last dying moment you have not quite got the footsteps lined up? I’m not being a smart-alec here, it’s just in my walk with God I’ve never believed as you do in this regard, and that’s the genuine query I would not be comfortable with feeling I knew the answer to (in short, I would have no confidence in my reasoning of what was the pass standard, and where I would stand before my God if I was to come short even by one skerrick from His standard of righteousness). I appear to have my beliefs lined up with Peter the Apostle.
1 Peter 2:21, “For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.”
We are asked to follow in the footsteps of Christ. That does not mean we will not stumble along the way. However, we pick ourselves up and keep going. God has made a twofold plan for our walk with Jesus. He allowed his only begotten human being son to become the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. However, this is only effective for those who choose to believe in the Son of God, by following him as he requested in the way, truth and life which leads to the Father and eternal life. As we stumble along the way (sins) the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness and presents us perfect before God. It's very simple. The blood of Jesus wipes away our sins as we genuinely strive to follow in his footsteps. Q. Last one on this topic, which really boils down to salvation by grace, or salvation by our works or merit or effort (following Jesus’ example). Do you accept as divinely inspired (divinely = godly) the epistles of Paul, where he espouses the gospel of salvation by grace through faith not of works lest any should boast? Or do you discount Paul’s teaching in comparison with the red-letter words of Jesus? You would have been better to start this last question by stating what Grace means in your opinion? Having studied the concept at length in the past, my understanding is that GRACE is all that God (freely) gives us to help us do his will, or the works that he has called us to do, has planned for us, as we follow in the footsteps of Jesus. We cannot please God by our own human works, but by works of obedience to his will (word). Do you not agree that Jesus and the early Apostles, etc, lived out this understanding in their lives? Paul adequately addresses both forms of Works, sadly missed by most of the reformed catholics in this day and age (Protestants) and misunderstood by traditional Catholicism.
Agree with you that 2x2ism isn't 100% bad or wrong. It’s led me to Christ, and I trust you and many others. And it allows for a wide spectrum of beliefs and understandings; in short, it’s a ‘broad church’ in this regard  . And that’s good in my book, as it allows growth (with that open mindedness to God through being open to teaching and correction by the Holy Spirit). I know I’m in no way a finished product, so much to go (in effect, an unlimited amount when you consider the creation and universe we live in). I agree with you. There is so much to learn, the fullness of it is unachievable in this life. However, the further I progress the more that I see God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confuse the wise and the simplicity of the things of Christ to stop his followers from being lead astray by enticing doctrine of devils, but many let their own imagination or that of others to control their thinking and direction.
Also agree “We are to die daily to our own will in order to let Christ control us.” That for me is “our bit”. “Tough to take isn't it?” – no, I don’t agree except at times when taking my own prideful, selfish and self-centred way rises up. But love for God and humility in knowing He is on the throne and not any one of us kind-of makes the dying to self and allowing God to control the greater joy and blessing. So sincerely, no not tough in the way I think you are suggesting. If you are opining that my comments are prideful, selfish and self centred, then you are right that you don't know me.
As I said before, there's little or no point in arguing this with all the beliefs and theories of man (“man’s wisdom leads into a maze”). We’ll agree to disagree, I simply cannot accept from all of the inspired holy scripture (God’s written truth and wisdom to us in language we can understand) that Jesus didn’t actually exist until he was born a man into this world. As Nathan says, the thread of who Jesus is is clear in whole of scripture, as revealed through the Holy Spirit to us. He existed as real, not simply a figment in God’s mind.Would you care to select one example of why you believe the way you do and subject it to honest, sincere, truthful and open minded scrutiny? One good tool that I use is 'simplicity,' often that which a child can understand.
Yes, the “Holy Bible” as you put it, and why stop with the KJV translation? The original Hebrew and Greek are freely available so translational issues shouldn’t prevent finding the godly meaning intended by God for us. A very good point, but please do not omit the importance of the Holy Spirit to guide us.
You don’t like “divine”. Well Jesus told us “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth” (ESV). I used divine because I assumed you would gag over “Jesus is God”. I don’t personally like that description either as for me in my relationship, God is God the Father (my Father). I’ll simply clarify if it’s necessary, that God (Father) and Jesus (from my understanding of all biblical scripture) are both fully spirit (as Jesus told us of his father God). Now of course, Jesus is both spirit and man (my understanding). Or another way, God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit comprise the Godhead. Or Jesus is both deity and man, again my understanding. God is Spirit, an Holy Spirit. Godhead is best interpreted as Godly or Godliness. Show me one verse that shows Jesus to actually be God or part of a trinitarian God. Furthermore show me a single verse that shows Jesus to be the eternal Word of God itself, rather than God's latter days messenger. God is Spirit. He is the Almighty God. From the beginning of the Bible to the end, God is the Father and vice versa. In every reference made by Jesus to one of the other, the Father is God. Jesus also points out several times that he is NOT the actual word of God, but God's messenger. All that he spoke came from God who is the Father. Jesus also tells us the the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. This is all very simple stuff that a child can understand.
Jesus now that he has ascended to Heaven and received his inheritance of all power in Heaven and Earth (acting on behalf of his Heavenly Father (your Father and God and mine) reigns over the universe. As part of his inheritance he has received control of the Holy Spirit which he sends to his followers. This is why he is referred to as a life giving spirit. He is a human being with a glorified body, full of God's Spirit.
One last personal aspect, I am very comfortable accepting all that the deity/spiritual/divine Jesus tells me about my salvation based on his having existed (lived) with God the Father in heaven before he came to earth as a man. Way more confident in the words of this Jesus, than words of any man, even a 100% perfect but mere man. Jesus told us a lot from his past experiences in heaven with his father God. And Jesus said in John 16:12 “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” Some of those “many things” are what the Holy Spirit through the agency of Paul has told us in holy scripture about the power and righteousness in the gospel message. Jesus wasn't the first perfect man on this Earth. In fact he was the third. Adam and Eve were created perfect in the sight of God. It is unknown how long they remained perfect before they fell away through disobedience. Some suggest anything up to c.100 years, as Seth was born when Adam was 130 years of age. Cain and Abel were born before Seth and were adults before Seth was born. Jesus was the second Adam. Therefore it is possible that God can create or raise up a perfect man, which he did with Jesus. The difference between Adam and Eve and Jesus is that the first two fell away from God through disobedience (sin), but Jesus remained obedient to the very end and was welcomed into his Father's bosom.
I'm sure you will appreciate that the human being Jesus did not exist in Heaven before his conception and birth? So what came down from Heaven?
Scripture is clear that Jesus emptied himself of his human will to serve his heavenly Father. He battled every day to maintain this position. This allowed God to pour into him his Spirit without measure, in order that he could become the express image of God. Think of this as a glass of water being emptied out (Jesus human will) to be replaced with wine (the Holy Spirit). In this scenario, God is expressing himself through the human Jesus. This is why Thomas could see both his God (the Father) and his Lord (Jesus) ultimately before him.
It was the Holy Spirit which descended from Heaven which shone through and guided Jesus in this life. The Word is ALWAYS God the Father's word and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. It's these three that are one, just like Tulip's being, his word and his spirit/actions. We were created in the image of God.
So Ro***, one last Question: were you ever a worker (and if not, why not)? You don’t need to respond to that, it’s just that you sounded very much like one! Best regards to you, we seem a long way apart (certainly geographically) but if both in Christ then not so very apart spiritually. You can try RO* or RO****, but not RO***. No I was never a worker. I would appreciate it if you did not link me with the 2x2 sect, other than as a previous member. My up to date beliefs are down to my own efforts in agency with the Holy Spirit. It allows me to speak simply and boldly, not with pride, self centredness, etc.
Anyway it is good to communicate about these various issues with others. I return your kind wishes which are much appreciated.
R**/R****
PS You can call me Ro if you want?G'day Ro bro! Sorry about slowness in responding, been away from home base. Appreciate your time in replying, yours is an interesting perspective on scripture interpretation and understanding. Not one I had come across exactly like you see it. Some things to agree on, like "please do not omit the importance of the Holy Spirit to guide us". Which is interesting in itself, especially considering the strongly-held (but clearly errant) doctrine of exclusivity that many 2x2s still stick firmly to. Just indicates how strongly "rusted on" humans in general are to ideas firmly planted in our minds. A warning to us all! Also agree “We are to die daily to our own will in order to let Christ control us.” That for me is “our bit”. “Tough to take isn't it?” – no, I don’t agree except at times when taking my own prideful, selfish and self-centred way rises up. But love for God and humility in knowing He is on the throne and not any one of us kind-of makes the dying to self and allowing God to control the greater joy and blessing. So sincerely, no not tough in the way I think you are suggesting.
Sorry, I can see how my poorly thought out comments led to that. No, not what I meant to say at all, rather my poor attempt to explain how these things impact me based on my understanding Thanks for your offer to discuss further, I may take you up once I've processed your welcome responses. Thanks for your kind wishes, and best regards back, T2 |
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Post by fixit on Oct 7, 2024 3:53:05 GMT -5
If I don't believe in the Trinity, will I just go to hell regardless? I doubt that a believer would perish for not being able to comprehend a triune Godhead. I imagine a person can believe and follow what Christ taught without recognizing who he was. The trinity is a difficult concept for many to grasp. The difficulty is to suspend your God-given intelligence to accept something that is unintelligible. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 4:07:58 GMT -5
So what about all the other sons of God, are they God also? No, it's the word in them that's God and that comes from the father by the power of the Spirit. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And you quote Philippians, but Paul clearly says that the father has highly exalted Jesus, Jesus wouldn't need exalting if he was God. And stop adding to scripture what isn't there, it doesn't say that Jesus Christ is Lord God in heaven, it says Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the father. You are baring false witness by changing the scriptures to suit your beliefs. Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER. Also God made Jesus Christ both Lord and Christ, because God the father is the God of Jesus and he is above him, he is the head of Christ, the father is above us all. Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Stop baring false witness! No, baring false witness, you just don’t see the whole picture of the Godhead, yet…. Let me show you. Read in the book of Revelation chapters 4-7 you will truly see the glory of God the Father and the glory of the Lamb of God the Christ Jesus. God the Father sits on His throne and Christ sits on His throne at God the Father right hand of authority in heaven. Read Rev. 5: 7-14; 7: 9-17. Both God the Father and Christ Jesus the Lamb of God were “WORSHIPPING” and ONLY God to be Worshipped! by Thousands and ten thousands of angels surround the thrones of God, 24 elders, and great multitude of believers no man can count “WORSHIPPING,” given glory and praises to the Lamb of God Jesus the Christ, who died for them and brought Salvation to them. They gave great appreciation to God the Father for sending Christ the Lamb of God, who died for them in the person Jesus! All of the glory go to the God the Father and the Lamb of God and the Holy Spirit/Godhead. Christ was sitting at God the Father right hand from Eternity before he incarnate in the the person Jesus to die for our sins. Christ was sitting on His throne in heaven, but he left his throne and came down to earth to Redeem His own creation, who He and God the Father created in their image and likeness in the Garden of Eden. After Christ/God had paid the ransom price in the person as a human being for Adam, Eve and all mortal beings he went back to heaven to be with God the Father and sits at His right hand as Christ/God and Jesus/Man. The book of Revelation was taken place in heaven/Venus, the Bright and Morning Star! Rev.22:16 The Third Person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit was on earth leading the ministry Read Rev. chapter 11 to care and protect the New Testament Church Read Rev. chapter 12 from Satan and his demonic army onslaught even in our days and generation! 😥😭 it was foretold in Rev. 6:9-11 until Jesus returns to DEFEAT Satan and to establish His eternal kingdom 1000 years reign. Firstly, nowhere in the bible does it say that the Godhead is triune, absolutely nothing anywhere. But it does tell us who the Godhead is, Paul tells us clearly that Christ is the head of man and God is the head of Christ, and it tells us clearly in the bible that the father is God, so the Godhead is the father, the God, head and father of all of us including Christ Jesus. There is no such thing as a triune God. And you did bare false witness, because you added your own words to scripture to make it mean what you want it to, changing the truth into a lie. As for worshipping, what does this mean then? Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 4:08:58 GMT -5
Im trinitarian as the word has meaning today. The reality of living in a world subject to Jesus wont be fully apparent until it happens. Until what happens? |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 4:15:11 GMT -5
In the Greek, it doesn't say I am, but I exist. And in the Aramaic it says before Abraham was I was. All before Trinitarians twisted the word of God. And, even if it did say I am, so what? When I say "I am" I don't mean I'm God. Nowhere does it say in the bible that Jesus is God, and neither is God the son in the bible, it's all false doctrine by false teachers. And they pick at every little bit, and twist it to make it the truth in their own eyes. It's clear, Jesus has a God and that's the father and he is the head of is all including Christ. 
Even so, "Before Abraham was, I existed" or "Before Abraham was, I was", both have the same meaning as "Before Abraham was, I am".. There is no twisting scripture, the Jews fully understood what Jesus had said, "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33).
If Jesus is not part of the Godhead, then he has neither the power or authority to cleanse or save anyone.
They said he made himself God, he didn't say that though, they were baring false witness. What did Jesus answer them? He said he was the son of God, and they twisted it to say that he said he was God. As seen clearly here. Like many do now. John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Jesus isn't God, he is the son of God as he clearly says himself, he never once said I am God, never ever. But he did say that he has a God that he worships and that the father is his God. Jesus isn't God. |
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Post by tulip2 on Oct 7, 2024 4:26:11 GMT -5
Im trinitarian as the word has meaning today. The reality of living in a world subject to Jesus wont be fully apparent until it happens. Until what happens? Until "The reality of living in a world [that is] subject to Jesus"! (currently the world in the main is subject to "the prince of this world") Matthew ch.24 words of Jesus "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Luke ch.21 "For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 1Thess ch.4 "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." Rev ch.1 "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." And many more places in scripture. For all reading along here, keep an open mind and read the scripture in context. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 4:27:45 GMT -5
So what about all the other sons of God, are they God also? No, it's the word in them that's God and that comes from the father by the power of the Spirit. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And you quote Philippians, but Paul clearly says that the father has highly exalted Jesus, Jesus wouldn't need exalting if he was God. And stop adding to scripture what isn't there, it doesn't say that Jesus Christ is Lord God in heaven, it says Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the father. You are baring false witness by changing the scriptures to suit your beliefs. Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER. Also God made Jesus Christ both Lord and Christ, because God the father is the God of Jesus and he is above him, he is the head of Christ, the father is above us all. Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Stop baring false witness!
We are only made sons of God by the "Spirit of Adoption" (Romans 8:15). But there is only One divine begotten Son of the Father (John 3:16).
If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas who referred to Jesus as "My Lord and my God”, but He did not, because it wasn't blasphemy, Thomas spoke the truth. (John 20:28)
By applying the names and attributes of God to Himself, Jesus made it clear that He was God incarnate, proving it by His words, by His miracles, and his resurrection.
That's because Thomas was was no more doubting and could clearly see that God was in and with him and that God had clearly brought Christ forth in the resurrection. The was praising the God of Jesus not praising Jesus as God. Also Jesus being the only begotten son, yes he was, he was the only man to ever have the fullness of the spirit without measure, so he was fully begotten of God, because he didn't sin. He turned from this sinful flesh, completely denied himself and lived by the will of God every day, thus the father poured his Spirit in and through him. Jesus even says, "the father never leaves me, because I always do what pleases him." Jesus was fully begotten of God, he was in his express image. But he isn't God. |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 4:46:47 GMT -5
If I don't believe in the Trinity, will I just go to hell regardless? I doubt that a believer would perish for not being able to comprehend a triune Godhead. I imagine a person can believe and follow what Christ taught without recognizing who he was. The trinity is a difficult concept for many to grasp. Not believing that Jesus is our Savior and redeemer via his sacrifice would be troublesome though, Maryhig doesn't believe salvation has anything to do with Christ, she's convinced she can justify herself and qualify for heaven on her own.
Woah... don't you dare change what I say! Where did I say salvation has nothing to do with Christ? And that I can justify myself and qualify for heaven on my own. I have never ever said those things, you've totally made that up about me. What I have said is that I don't believe that the death of Jesus that saves, but it's the life of Christ Jesus that saves, life saves, death saves no-one. I have never ever said that Christ doesn't save. Without him, I wouldn't even know God. And there's no way I can justify myself, I know I'm nothing before God and I don't even know if I qualify for heaven yet so that's wrong what you are saying. I believe in what Jesus says, that we are to endure to the end to be saved. Only God knows who will be going to heaven, I leave all that in his hands, I trust in him and live by his will as best as I can daily with his help, and through Christ and I leave my life in his hands. And I leave where I'm going when I die to him. Don't make things up about me please! |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 4:51:51 GMT -5
Until "The reality of living in a world [that is] subject to Jesus"! (currently the world in the main is subject to "the prince of this world") Matthew ch.24 words of Jesus "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Luke ch.21 "For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 1Thess ch.4 "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." Rev ch.1 "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." And many more places in scripture. For all reading along here, keep an open mind and read the scripture in context. So you believe that Jesus is literally going to come floating out of the sky on a cloud blowing a trumpet? |
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nathan2
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Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 7, 2024 7:18:22 GMT -5
I doubt that a believer would perish for not being able to comprehend a triune Godhead. I imagine a person can believe and follow what Christ taught without recognizing who he was. The trinity is a difficult concept for many to grasp. Not believing that Jesus is our Savior and redeemer via his sacrifice would be troublesome though, Maryhig doesn't believe salvation has anything to do with Christ, she's convinced she can justify herself and qualify for heaven on her own.
Do you know who added the "trinity" to Christian doctrine? It wasn’t the RCC in the 3rd century! The concept of the Triune God or the Trinity/Godhead is Eternal, it revealed to the humans in Genesis 1:26 God/Elohim/plural said “Let Us created man in Our Image and Likeness.” to the book of Revelation chapters 4-7. Jesus teaches the Triune God in the gospel John 13-17 God the Father, Himself and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:16-20. The apostle John teaches the Triune God in 1John 5:7-8. In the 2nd century the next generation of the apostles, who coined the word “ TRINITY” to describe the Triune God/the Godhead. The RCC in the 3rd century and Constantine emperor accepted the The Trinity/Godhead/Triune God as the Church doctrines. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 7, 2024 7:32:40 GMT -5
Until "The reality of living in a world [that is] subject to Jesus"! (currently the world in the main is subject to "the prince of this world") Matthew ch.24 words of Jesus "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Luke ch.21 "For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” 1Thess ch.4 "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." Rev ch.1:7-8 "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." And many more places in scripture. For all reading along here, keep an open mind and read the scripture in context. So you believe that Jesus is literally going to come floating out of the sky on a cloud blowing a trumpet? Yes, Jesus is coming down from heaven literally with ten thousands of believers to rule and reign on the earth 1000 years! READ Acts 1:9-12; The two angels of God said this same Jesus you see ascended up into heaven, you will see him descend in the same manner. Jude 14-15; Enoch, the great, great grand father of Noah, foretold of Jesus 2nd Coming! to set up his eternal kingdom on earth. Rev. 1:7-8. While John the apostle was in heaven, God and Christ showed him Jesus 2nd Coming back to earth to reign and rule The 1000 with Christ ten thousands of believers READ Rev. 20:1- 10 To be with the Lord/God Jesus in the air! |
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Post by maryhig on Oct 7, 2024 14:41:13 GMT -5
So you believe that Jesus is literally going to come floating out of the sky on a cloud blowing a trumpet? Yes, Jesus is coming down from heaven literally with ten thousands of believers to rule and reign on the earth 1000 years! READ Acts 1:9-12; The two angels of God said this same Jesus you see ascended up into heaven, you will see him descend in the same manner. Jude 14-15; Enoch, the great, great grand father of Noah, foretold of Jesus 2nd Coming! to set up his eternal kingdom on earth. Rev. 1:7-8. While John the apostle was in heaven, God and Christ showed him Jesus 2nd Coming back to earth to reign and rule The 1000 with Christ ten thousands of believers READ Rev. 20:1- 10 To be with the Lord/God Jesus in the air! Sorry, I definitely don't see that as you do. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Oct 7, 2024 16:32:28 GMT -5
Yes, Jesus is coming down from heaven literally with ten thousands of believers to rule and reign on the earth 1000 years! READ Acts 1:9-12; The two angels of God said this same Jesus you see ascended up into heaven, you will see him descend in the same manner. Jude 14-15; Enoch, the great, great grand father of Noah, foretold of Jesus 2nd Coming! to set up his eternal kingdom on earth. Rev. 1:7-8. While John the apostle was in heaven, God and Christ showed him Jesus 2nd Coming back to earth to reign and rule The 1000 with Christ ten thousands of believers READ Rev. 20:1- 10 To be with the Lord/God Jesus in the air! Sorry, I definitely don't see that as you do. Dan, SharonW, Wally, myself and others on here don’t see as you do for years on this triune Godhead, Jesus the Christ is an Eternal God like God the Father and God the Holy Spirit Acts 5:1-5. You do see things differently than the rest of us like Jesus Death on the cross doesn’t SAVE us but his life. We as 2x2s believe Jesus death on Calvary’s paid the ransom price for our sins, without His death there is no forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 9:12-15. His life or teachings guide us to be more like Him in actions, goodness, compassion, to be merciful, kindness more of the fruits of the spirit in our lives, to show we are His. You see many events when you can’t understand are spiritually like the 2nd Coming of Jesus in the clouds with ten thousands of His saints, and others events NOT actual events to take place on earth. It seems you get your spiritual and NOT spiritual things and events mixed up. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 7, 2024 18:03:36 GMT -5
Do you know who added the "trinity" to Christian doctrine? It wasn’t the RCC in the 3rd century! The concept of the Triune God or the Trinity/Godhead is Eternal, it revealed to the humans in Genesis 1:26 God/Elohim/plural said “Let Us created man in Our Image and Likeness.” to the book of Revelation chapters 4-7. Jesus teaches the Triune God in the gospel John 13-17 God the Father, Himself and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:16-20. The apostle John teaches the Triune God in 1John 5:7-8. In the 2nd century the next generation of the apostles, who coined the word “ TRINITY” to describe the Triune God/the Godhead. The RCC in the 3rd century and Constantine emperor accepted the The Trinity/Godhead/Triune God as the Church doctrines. HAHA You're so transparent. Now I know where you got all your arguments about this. |
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. And that’s good in my book, as it allows growth (with that open mindedness to God through being open to teaching and correction by the Holy Spirit). I know I’m in no way a finished product, so much to go (in effect, an unlimited amount when you consider the creation and universe we live in).
