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Post by as I c it on Jun 12, 2007 13:30:22 GMT -5
The disciples of Christ (filled with the Holy Spirit) and the seriousness of their mission on earth, were full of courage and honesty. They were going against the tide of all of their previous Jewish beliefs. And they had to take a stand for God's truth alone. (Whether it contradicted their own or not).
Them "being right" was not the issue. Them--being right with God--and what He said: was. And they died violent deaths so that we might have the truth that they were given to deliver unto the world (and us).
This is part of the example Christ (and they) left us. And part of what (to some degree) should also be found in us if we claim to be followers of Christ.
And like Clearday, who is seeing clearly, I too, wish the focus would stay on the issues.
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Post by Peacemaker on Jun 12, 2007 13:33:08 GMT -5
This is nothing new, I frequented this Forum in 2004 and 2005 and I thought thing were bad then. I had disagreements with people like Edgar Massey, ILYLO, Bryan, Greg Lee, and others, but I just popped back to see what is going on and I do not like what I see at all. As for Brad Lewis, he makes all the others look like Angels. May God bring peace and comfort to each and everyone of us.
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Post by scripture on Jun 12, 2007 13:35:09 GMT -5
Titus 1:12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
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Post by because on Jun 12, 2007 14:06:49 GMT -5
don't know how long you've been around here, but some of us old timers have been here long enough to see the lies, twists, falsehoods, and deceptions that nathan has been caught with. Stick around, you'll see it too. Read my post again. I'm not defending nathan or anyone else. I'm pointing out the frequent personal attacks on this board and that nathan receives more than anyone else. There is no excuse for personal attacks amongst mature adults, even on these anonymous boards. Attack the ideas and present something better and leave it there, that's what grownups are supposed to do. That's because nathan lies more than anybody else. It's not rocket science, the man is a pathological liar. Stating such is not an attack. It's what he is.
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Do you are have you
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Post by Do you are have you on Jun 12, 2007 15:25:30 GMT -5
Let's face it. Nathan gets plenty of personal attacks here. He has every right and reason to complain. From what I see, his number of complaints don't even come close to the number of personal attacks he receives. Some exes complain that professing people don't participate in these forums and then when they do, they get dumped on with personal attacks. I'm surprised that nathan and bert put up with some of the stuff they get. Like someone says... more precious jewls on our crown in the day of judgement. Thanks, Clearday. Good observation.
Have you noticed most attackers usually are the anonymous ones which we don't know who they are...... if people knew their true identities their posts would be ignored and get jumped on for their gutter-snipes and personal attacks. They don't dare to write personal attacks and gutter-snipes with their REAL names. They like to do it anonymously hiding in the dark. They don't dare to write personal attacks and gutter-snipes with their REAL names. They like to do it anonymously hiding in the darkDo you or have you ever posted as a gutter-snipe anonymously hiding in the Dark?
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Post by So then on Jun 12, 2007 15:39:11 GMT -5
They don't dare to write personal attacks and gutter-snipes with their REAL names. They like to do it anonymously hiding in the darkDo you or have you ever posted as a gutter-snipe anonymously hiding in the Dark? nope... I don't need to... because people know my writing style they will recognize it is me. When I do it I will do it with my registered name so you know it is me.You are calling charles a liar in his accounts of you post anonymously with many handles? May I ask when you registered? Are there any others who can say if Nathan post Anonymously and took snipes at exes before he registerd?
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Post by Hummm on Jun 12, 2007 16:16:20 GMT -5
You are calling charles a liar in his accounts of you post anonymously with many handles? May I ask when you registered? Are there any others who can say if Nathan post Anonymously and took snipes at exes before he registerd? You are still posting as anonymous and take snipes at those who you don\'t like... you can come back with 20 different alias and pretend to be different people with different handles who agree with your post. That is why these anonymous posters CAN\'T be TRUSTED.
That is one of the reasons I don\'t answer anonymous posters most of the time. he/she likes to ask the questions! and demand you to answer him/her but NOT willing to be honest about themselves. So I just ignored their posts. When I am in a good mood then I might answer some of it.
Someone that I know registered when he writes nicely... then he logged off posting as anonymous to attacks so and so with gutter- snipes.Never saw so much deception and side stepping as Nathan. He knows very well that he attacked and posted as anonymous guttersnipe. Clay, Greg, Dennis, Cherie, Rob, and all those other old time posters know it too. At least the Guy who started this thread owned up to his past deeds but on the other hand you still will not admit you have done the same and are probably still doing it. We have noticed your style unregistered pretending to be someone else.
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Post by Nope on Jun 12, 2007 22:30:55 GMT -5
Never saw so much deception and side stepping as Nathan. He knows very well that he attacked and posted as anonymous guttersnipe. Clay, Greg, Dennis, Cherie, Rob, and all those other old time posters know it too. At least the Guy who started this thread owned up to his past deeds but on the other hand you still will not admit you have done the same and are probably still doing it. We have noticed your style unregistered pretending to be someone else. I wrote in the past.... that some people thought I wrote this and that posts. I told them it wasn't me who wrote such posts. Someone tried to copy my writing style..... some of the exes encouraged me to register my name so the FAKER can't pretend to be me. Even after I registered my own name the FAKER! still try to pretend to be me. I don't think they can now because I have more than 2,000 plus posts it will hard for him/her to catch up. ;D
One of the reasons I registered so I can advertise my 2x2 website on here whenever I post on here. Nope nare a smiggen prize for Natan. Hes a still duhnyon dat hes a posted fer some time witout tellon who he was. Hes a used multiple names an tacked jus as um cueses others
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Post by TubeTrain on Jun 13, 2007 6:56:36 GMT -5
We are entitled to use Annon names otherwise this function would not be available. I'm not an experienced poster, so I don't know how to quote someones quote. Anyway.... - I've decided that Charles is telling the truth. He has opened up more than Nathan. - I've read Nathans posts in the past and he seems to be all 2x2 but would rather be on the internet doing his one-man band website instead of going to Sunday morning meetings. - Charles is trying to piece the scriptures together in open minded way in which the 2x2 can't help/has not helped/can't be bothered to understand and in fact lots of the ex 2x2 have been an amazing help to him ( I suppose one is not allowed to be open minded in the 2x2 way). - Charles don't sound to be self righteous. Nathan seem to be condescending saying that ..."Now, you don't even attend the 2x2s meetings anymore. In the last year, God has opened the door for me to attending Gospel meetings again. " - Nathan to me seems to have all the nasty things of a nasty worker except he is an internet worker. Also..... to MaryParry. You said "NO one can wipe out your hard drive. NO ONE" How do you know this? Why can't they? How much do you know about brute force attacks? How many vulnerability updates has microsoft released since XP came out and what else do they not know about? Which is more secure WEP or WPA in terms of wireless, what do you recommend? Your computer seems to be really secure so What do I need to do to secure my computer like they way you have your? ... unless you are using linux, unix or mac
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 13, 2007 11:22:53 GMT -5
There are no exes helping my cause. The only cause I have is to serve my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ.
There are no such thing as exes. It is a pejorative term. There are people who have left the F&W's fellowship for many reasons. Most have left because they have found to many contradictions in Scripture as compared to what the F&W expect one to believe. They have asked questions and shared what they find. As a result they were shunned and put in outcast status. They have felt the brunt of the exclusive aspect of a so called loving family (church). These things were not done in any Christian Spirit.
Nathan introduced me to this TMB. Nathan was the first catalyst. At first, like all others in the F&W's church I could find fault with any and all. (That is to see those that left as being wrong and in error.) I found out from first hand testimony that this just was not the case. I knew in my heart that rejection of all others because they did not attend the house fellowship as F&W, was Wrong. Still I over looked it.
I knew in my heart the shunning and sanctions of those that had say, outside bible studies-like BSF, had TV's, or even some who were D&R was incorrect. BSF is considered "Worldly" --- Ignorant use of power TV's wrong but all the INTERNET is OK -- Ignorant use of power
Sanctions against D&R--- How does six months of not taking part correct the sin? Either the F&W's stand firm or have mercy and forgiveness.
There is no forgiveness and mercy. Forgiveness/mercy to them is only when someone agrees with them. As to this last one should consider the issue of exclusiveness.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Why do so many want to divide the Body. It goes against what God wants. Do others break bread and take of the cup which are not in the fellowship? How then can one deny them.
I will not deny the works of the HOLY SPIRIT for anyone. IF I am to say that "surely those in other fellowships are not saved" to stay in good standing with the F&W's then I will follow my Lord and walk away. That teaching is in error. It is basic doctrine.
As to the issue of Deity. If one is to deny the fullness and context of "Emmanuel" to be in good standing with the F&W's then I walk away. That teaching is in error. It is basic doctrine. God came for us in the flesh. Do not deny.
As to those that do not fit the mold in appearance. God teaches us that we are to love period.
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
How is it that the F&W's claim the ONLY WAY but do not live what Jesus teaches?
As to the William Irvine origins. To deny that is foolishness. Most of the customs come not from Apostolic succession but from Irvine succession. God can raise anyone up at any time to be his servant. God did not need William Irvine to start anything. The foundation was already built God does not need living witness doctrine nor secession. God is supreme and from everlasting to everlasting. Just dwell on that for a little bit.
The fellowship is about self edification and rejection of all others. This comes directly from William Irvine and not God. It does not give to Spiritual growth. In the Gospel meetings you see the lifers over and over again. I asked myself, is this it. Is this the sum of their spiritual experience. One we took milk but now we must take meat. It is long over due. Some will continue to feed on Milk their whole lives. Nothing wrong with that. But for those that can they must feed on meat. If you cannot understand what I am saying then so be it. I have tried. I have piped my song to you. I am just one in the field of many. Understand this one thing. I am in Christ Also.
I have told you the truth and that is all I can do. I will not longer post in this thread.
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Post by TubeTrain on Jun 13, 2007 11:56:49 GMT -5
Nathan. I'm sure you are a very nice peron. I really don't need to be posting here for the last 10 years to know your story etc. Charles has said his condensed story which clearly comes from a sincere heart. Anything from the heart is all ways welcomed. I look on you as, being an ex worker, you should know how to maintaining/heal frendship. It is not difficult to hold your hands up and say... "I see where I have gone wrong, It was my fault, I'm sorry, let me make ammends or, Let me buy you a beer". My work colleagues who are not 2x2s do that all the time and it's great (NOT the beer of course). I have respect for them.
I'm not a judge of any kind, just weighing things up.
With regards to ON-LINE-WORKERing (which is to me is another form of bible-bashing), Someone once said to me. "Don't go looking to create a ministry, let the ministry come to you". I thought of this as.... don't think that we must do, do and do, our own ministering for the sake of God or indeed ours, but God will bring others to you when he finds you can be of a help to them. You need to be an ON-LINE-HELPer. See that A lot of the people here are being just that.
If you are comfortable in a church. Stay with it othewise... If you are having a hard time working out whether you need to be in or out, Be honest and open to yourself, God and others.
New post - "Things stopping me from leaving a 2x2 church?"
...but I'll finish here for now and Hello to all!!
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Post by an innie on Jun 13, 2007 20:48:10 GMT -5
So Nathan you are saying that Charles is a liar and that you never suggested using false names on here?
Charles story sounds far more plausable than yours.
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Post by To Nathan on Jun 13, 2007 22:47:50 GMT -5
Nathan you routinely used anonymous handles just 2 years ago. Just admit it and move on. Everyone knows this and you come off like a hypocrit. Just sayin.
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Post by David Someone on Jun 13, 2007 23:14:14 GMT -5
It was almost to years ago very near this date that Charles and I were speaking. It was a potluck after the Union Sunday meeting. Charles shared almost the same story but in much greater detail. Charles has a love for Nathan and Tom H and also a love for the friends. He did share that he deeply concerned about some of the issues for which we read now. Charles also told me the most beautiful story of how God touched his life starting from before Vietnam, though Vietnam and the many things after. I thought it was awesome.
Charles also shared some of his thoughts about Nathans goals. He had concerns but in a loving way. Charles spoke clear about scripture and why he found fault. We discussed the issues in depth and I must say I agree. From what I know of him, I believe Charles was called into a ministry by GOD. He is always teaching and preaching in depth and with great understanding. He took care of his widowed mother and is a father to his grandson who is fatherless. Is that not Pure religion and undefiled before God.
I am saddened by what has happened to him. Most of this was hush hush in our (his) meeting area. I have had feedback from some about it. Most, I found hard to believe as I knew some of the background leading up to his taking a stand. I listened to some terrible gossip at special meetings. I cannot believe people in our church are so nasty and so wrong.
As to what Charles is saying here. I have no doubt of the truth in the matter. Charles has some things in his life which I can only say are a result of Gods hand on his life. In my personal opinion they are because God is using him. I hope and pray that we can all learn from his experience. I believe Charles will know who I am by what I write here.. Charles, I do not blame you one bit for your stand and please forgive us.
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Post by TubeTrain on Jun 14, 2007 11:53:47 GMT -5
Nathan why are you using 2 Names - Nathan7 and Nathan9? or this this 2 different people?
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Post by Ok Here we Go on Jun 28, 2007 18:17:22 GMT -5
The opening post of this thread tells it all.
I know most of it to be true.
David
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From someone Not Charles
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Post by From someone Not Charles on Jul 17, 2007 17:55:14 GMT -5
Nathan is bashing this guy trying to blame him for some anonymous posts. I brought this back up because I remember the discussion and searched the posts for it. Nathan is a liar.
He is guilty of everything he accuses others of doing when posting anonymous.
I see another discussion is taking place where people are slinging mud at anonymous posters as being something less than honorable. I do not like my name being used in connection with these statements from one who knows very well that he is guilty of these very issues. So then since I cannot change one using my name, then I feel it is only fair to tell the another side of this story again.
The rest of the story:
About 5 Years ago I noted Nathans website link on one of the 2x2 websites. I knew Nathan in his last year of the work when I was on contract in OR. I being B&R re-professed in a union meeting while in OR. I made a profession when I was about 15 years old but it really meant nothing to me. The Holy Spirit moved on me when I was outside of the fellowship. My profession was without testing but was of the Holy Spirit. I could not contain the Joy I have.
I wrote Nathan and renewed a friendship. It soon became strained in that some which I knew back in OR told me Nathan was no longer going to meetings. I also was told of conflict Nathan had which led to Nathans leaving the Work. I questioned Nathan about those issues and Nathan did not want to talk about them and became very annoyed at my asking. He has that right. As a result Nathan stopped writing and talking to me after that.
When I first re-connected with Nathan we shared many agreements as to many on this TMB. I posted my Testimony on His site with Email and received many a hate mail. More importantly was the Emails I received from friends asking me about why I put it on Nathans web site. I also had many of those who left start writing me about there experiences.
During the time Nathan and I were connected on this TMB we talked on the phone and via Emails. Nathan told me directly to use anonymous handles and multiple handles. He told me directly that in this manner we would be able to keep the exes off guard and in the cross fire. At that time I agreed to all of that
I took on Cherie and got copies of many of the documents she had from listed sources. I even sent some of the FBI documents about the F&W's obtained in FOIA to Nathan. The end result of my research verified The TTT documents in the affirmative.
How time and learning changes things. In my zealousness to prosecute those evil exes on this TMB who do not have the spirit of God; (as Nathan said to me on more then one occasion), I found too many truthful accounts of nasty things perpetrated by the F&W against fellow saints which drove them out of meetings. Most of these issues dealt with the lack of response toward doctrine and honest questions. I found so many who were just shunned and pushed out. One ask me, Have you ever asked question like these on the forum. Well no I did not.------But, then I did and was also treated like a leper.
In the course of all this I was forced to stand for what God has laid on my heart or capitulate to the many wrong doctrines of the F&W.
Recap--During those early posting times both I, Nathan and a few others attacked any exes with anonymous posts, multiple handles and nasty posts. We used multiple handles to keep them guessing. On some occasions Nathan and I talked on the phone and laughed about it. Nathan has been dishonest with himself and others.
I am and will be forever sorry for this pain I have caused some in this regard.
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Post by Not Charles on Jul 17, 2007 18:03:20 GMT -5
Not Charles Not Charles. You are addressing the wrong person liar.
Nathan is bashing this guy trying to blame him for some anonymous posts. I brought this back up because I remember the discussion and searched the posts for it. Nathan is a liar.
He is guilty of everything he accuses others of doing when posting anonymous.
I see another discussion is taking place where people are slinging mud at anonymous posters as being something less than honorable. I do not like my name being used in connection with these statements from one who knows very well that he is guilty of these very issues. So then since I cannot change one using my name, then I feel it is only fair to tell the another side of this story again.
The rest of the story:
About 5 Years ago I noted Nathans website link on one of the 2x2 websites. I knew Nathan in his last year of the work when I was on contract in OR. I being B&R re-professed in a union meeting while in OR. I made a profession when I was about 15 years old but it really meant nothing to me. The Holy Spirit moved on me when I was outside of the fellowship. My profession was without testing but was of the Holy Spirit. I could not contain the Joy I have.
I wrote Nathan and renewed a friendship. It soon became strained in that some which I knew back in OR told me Nathan was no longer going to meetings. I also was told of conflict Nathan had which led to Nathans leaving the Work. I questioned Nathan about those issues and Nathan did not want to talk about them and became very annoyed at my asking. He has that right. As a result Nathan stopped writing and talking to me after that.
When I first re-connected with Nathan we shared many agreements as to many on this TMB. I posted my Testimony on His site with Email and received many a hate mail. More importantly was the Emails I received from friends asking me about why I put it on Nathans web site. I also had many of those who left start writing me about there experiences.
During the time Nathan and I were connected on this TMB we talked on the phone and via Emails. Nathan told me directly to use anonymous handles and multiple handles. He told me directly that in this manner we would be able to keep the exes off guard and in the cross fire. At that time I agreed to all of that
I took on Cherie and got copies of many of the documents she had from listed sources. I even sent some of the FBI documents about the F&W's obtained in FOIA to Nathan. The end result of my research verified The TTT documents in the affirmative.
How time and learning changes things. In my zealousness to prosecute those evil exes on this TMB who do not have the spirit of God; (as Nathan said to me on more then one occasion), I found too many truthful accounts of nasty things perpetrated by the F&W against fellow saints which drove them out of meetings. Most of these issues dealt with the lack of response toward doctrine and honest questions. I found so many who were just shunned and pushed out. One ask me, Have you ever asked question like these on the forum. Well no I did not.------But, then I did and was also treated like a leper.
In the course of all this I was forced to stand for what God has laid on my heart or capitulate to the many wrong doctrines of the F&W.
Recap--During those early posting times both I, Nathan and a few others attacked any exes with anonymous posts, multiple handles and nasty posts. We used multiple handles to keep them guessing. On some occasions Nathan and I talked on the phone and laughed about it. Nathan has been dishonest with himself and others.
I am and will be forever sorry for this pain I have caused some in this regard.
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From another person
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Post by From another person on Jul 17, 2007 18:05:11 GMT -5
It was almost to years ago very near this date that Charles and I were speaking. It was a potluck after the Union Sunday meeting. Charles shared almost the same story but in much greater detail. Charles has a love for Nathan and Tom H and also a love for the friends. He did share that he deeply concerned about some of the issues for which we read now. Charles also told me the most beautiful story of how God touched his life starting from before Vietnam, though Vietnam and the many things after. I thought it was awesome. Charles also shared some of his thoughts about Nathans goals. He had concerns but in a loving way. Charles spoke clear about scripture and why he found fault. We discussed the issues in depth and I must say I agree. From what I know of him, I believe Charles was called into a ministry by GOD. He is always teaching and preaching in depth and with great understanding. He took care of his widowed mother and is a father to his grandson who is fatherless. Is that not Pure religion and undefiled before God. I am saddened by what has happened to him. Most of this was hush hush in our (his) meeting area. I have had feedback from some about it. Most, I found hard to believe as I knew some of the background leading up to his taking a stand. I listened to some terrible gossip at special meetings. I cannot believe people in our church are so nasty and so wrong. As to what Charles is saying here. I have no doubt of the truth in the matter. Charles has some things in his life which I can only say are a result of Gods hand on his life. In my personal opinion they are because God is using him. I hope and pray that we can all learn from his experience. I believe Charles will know who I am by what I write here.. Charles, I do not blame you one bit for your stand and please forgive us. SEE Here is another person who says nathan is a liar
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Post by Why Dont on Jul 17, 2007 18:06:48 GMT -5
YOU Let this guy speak for himself rather then bashing him when it appears then he is not even posting.
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Post by Anybody on Jul 17, 2007 18:12:08 GMT -5
You are still posting as anonymous and take snipes at those who you don\'t like... you can come back with 20 different alias and pretend to be different people with different handles who agree with your post. That is why these anonymous posters CAN\'T be TRUSTED.
That is one of the reasons I don\'t answer anonymous posters most of the time. he/she likes to ask the questions! and demand you to answer him/her but NOT willing to be honest about themselves. So I just ignored their posts. When I am in a good mood then I might answer some of it.
Someone that I know registered when he writes nicely... then he logged off posting as anonymous to attacks so and so with gutter- snipes.Never saw so much deception and side stepping as Nathan. He knows very well that he attacked and posted as anonymous guttersnipe. Clay, Greg, Dennis, Cherie, Rob, and all those other old time posters know it too. At least the Guy who started this thread owned up to his past deeds but on the other hand you still will not admit you have done the same and are probably still doing it. We have noticed your style unregistered pretending to be someone else. Got emails for the people listed in this post. Would like their take on what this guy says about this Nathan. Is this Nathan a reformist or something. Seems he is a lose cannon and rams anyone without knowing even knowing the persons heart.I would like to here from Clay, Greg, Dennis, Cherie, Rob about these issues.
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Post by Dont Know on Jul 17, 2007 18:17:23 GMT -5
But here is something of interest. www.angelfire.com/ok3/apologia/britain.htmlCONCLUSION Nate had at least two reasons for trying this approach. First, if he was able to establish an authentic line of succession of the Gospel from the Original Twelve from Britain, this would be able to bypass the role of the Roman Catholic Church in the history of Christianity. Second, this would set the stage for an attempt to harmonize his F&W apostolic succession theory with all the evidence arising out of Ireland. In other words, this would be one step closer to placing the Truth Fellowship in a continuous succession in the British Isles, then he could try to incorporate that into all the late 19th Century Ireland evidence. Unfortunately for him, his plan backfired on him. What we have here is yet another example of a ludicrous theory unsupported by Nate's pointless examples which he obviously approached in his usual uncritical and careless way. I've given up wondering how far he will go in his futile attempts to establish apostolic succession, even at the cost of his own credibility. That same passage Nate quoted from Clement's Stromata contains a sentence (having to do, appropriately enough, with plagiarism) that could very well apply to himself: Well now is this not interesting.
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Nathan Exposed Again
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Post by Nathan Exposed Again on Jul 17, 2007 18:31:56 GMT -5
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Post by whatever on Jul 17, 2007 18:35:56 GMT -5
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Post by Guess on Jul 17, 2007 19:09:25 GMT -5
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Post by nathan did it on Jul 17, 2007 20:07:43 GMT -5
nathan got caught plagiarizing, and he does not even deny it.
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Post by so it is true on Jul 17, 2007 20:36:12 GMT -5
It doesn't matter. You plagiarized and you do not deny it.
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Post by to nathan on Jul 17, 2007 23:56:54 GMT -5
nathan,
You are a plagiarist. The evidence is there for the world to see.
Why are you not man enough to admit to your errors?
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