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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 20:54:37 GMT -5
book hereI just finished reading about half of the book. It's not particularly well written - lot's of big jumps in reasoning. But the main point of the book is that mainline and evangelical christian institutions have a lot of pagan (pre-christian) influences on building, layout, order of service, parts of service, etc. That's absolutely true. Christianity is a mix of Jewish mysticism, Greek philosophy, and Roman institutions. But doesn't make it wrong. I'd say that it's wonderful to be able to celebrate one's civilization every Sunday by attending one of these institutions. The gospel message transcends building, layout, service, etc. There is no 'right way' to worship, except to accept the love of God and love God in return. |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Dec 30, 2016 17:15:10 GMT -5
I have read Pagan Christianity?, Nathan, and I found it very meaningful. I have paper copies of two other books by Frank Viola: "Re-imagining Church" and "Finding Organic Church," and Violaʻs writing led me to Watchman Neeʻs "The Normal Christian Church Life" (and several other of Nee's writings). I have been elated to find these writings, because, although I no longer attend "meeting," I highly value my heritage there and feel I was taught much that challenges the popular system. But I state this with reservations too, as I believe "the ministry" has grown into a top-heavy, hierarchical, and authoritarian institution. Please do not take this as a personal indictment of all workers! I love many of the workers and friends, but cringe at the "system" it has become. Perhaps an opening point at what I am seeing is the way in which "we" - workers and friends (and we exes!) - used the term "the ministry" to refer to a position, when "ministry" in the NT church referred to a sharing of gifts by all believers, regardless of position as an apostle, elder, deacon, saint, etc. This is problematic in mainline Christianity today, and it is somewhat addressed within the meetings (with all "taking part"), but not entirely, as I know many of us did not entirely free to share some things, we experienced "shunning" because of disagreement, etc. Nee and Viola kind of "blew me away," as they both use many terms I grew up with - workers, meeting, gospel meeting, etc. Additionally, Nee lived and wrote in the early 20th century, so was fairly contemporary with William Irvine. I feel his Asian (Chinese) perspective is refreshing, as his thinking doesn't get tangled up in Greek philosophy, metaphysics, etc. Overall, I find that the way these men portray things makes the NT (Paul's letters in particular) much clearer than attempting to explain them through the lens of modern Christianity. (I'm writing "off the top of my head here, so a bit unorganized!) Another point is that salvation by grace is only the starting point. As I heard a worker from Europe (forgot his name now!) say at a Colorado convention, "Saved for what?" Watchman Nee in particular goes on to talk much about church life and about the the "opening" of the human spirit by "breaking" the soul - the human intellect, emotion, and will. This relates to what Jesus (and Paul and others) taught about "taking up our cross" and "dying daily" - things we were taught in the meetings, though I feel that in the meetings it turned into "willfully NOT doing what I wanted to do" (like listening to my rock music all day long!), and the grace of God being kind of left out of the picture. Anyway, I'm glad you brought the book up on the board! Alan |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Dec 31, 2016 3:31:09 GMT -5
I have read Pagan Christianity?, Nathan, and I found it very meaningful. I have paper copies of two other books by Frank Viola: "Re-imagining Church" and "Finding Organic Church," and Violaʻs writing led me to Watchman Neeʻs "The Normal Christian Church Life" (and several other of Nee's writings). I have been elated to find these writings, because, although I no longer attend "meeting," I highly value my heritage there and feel I was taught much that challenges the popular system. But I state this with reservations too, as I believe "the ministry" has grown into a top-heavy, hierarchical, and authoritarian institution. Please do not take this as a personal indictment of all workers! I love many of the workers and friends, but cringe at the "system" it has become. Perhaps an opening point at what I am seeing is the way in which "we" - workers and friends (and we exes!) - used the term "the ministry" to refer to a position, when "ministry" in the NT church referred to a sharing of gifts by all believers, regardless of position as an apostle, elder, deacon, saint, etc. This is problematic in mainline Christianity today, and it is somewhat addressed within the meetings (with all "taking part," but not entirely, as I know many of us did not entirely free to share some things, we experienced "shunning" because of disagreement, etc. Nee and Viola kind of "blew me away," as they both use many terms I grew up with - workers, meeting, gospel meeting, etc. Additionally, Nee lived and wrote in the early 20th century, so was fairly contemporary with William Irvine. I feel his Asian (Chinese) perspective is refreshing, as his thinking doesn't get tangled up in Greek philosophy, metaphysics, etc. Overall, I find that the way these men portrays things makes the NT (Paul's letters in particular) much clearer than attempting to explain them through the lens of modern Christianity. (I'm writing "off the top of my head here, so a bit unorganized!) Another point is that salvation by grace is only the starting point. As I heard a worker from Europe (forgot his name now!) say at a Colorado convention, "Saved for what?" Watchman Nee in particular goes on to talk much about church life and about the "opening" of the human spirit by "breaking" the soul - the human intellect, emotion, and will. This relates to what Jesus (and Paul and others) taught about "taking up our cross" and "dying daily" - things we were taught in the meetings, though I feel that in the meetings it turned into "willfully NOT doing what I wanted to do" (like listening to my rock music all day long!), and the grace of God being kind of left out of the picture. Anyway, I'm glad you brought the book up on the board! Alan
They treated us with great respect, and we were great appreciated that so we visited them almost every week for a year I was there.
I agree there are things, that the 2x2 overseers need to overhaul, correct, and do away with so the friends can grow and mature like Christ in actions, reaching out more to poor and needy, working/helping with the community so we are exposed, so we can be better witnesses for God.Thanks for your response, Nathan. I am aware too that problems do occur among Nee's followers ("The Recovery"), but my intent was not to compare them with the workers and friends, but rather to express appreciation for teachings I learned from childhood that questioned "mainstream Christianity," and to express a pleasant surprise and appreciation for others - Nee and Viola - who have added to that for me. I see many through the centuries - Luther, Calvin, Kierkegaard, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Ellul, to name a few - who have had revelation of truth, but who, like any human, have not "seen it all." I place both the workers and Nee right along with them. Though things are complicated with William Irvine having gone "off the deep end," I appreciate him and other early workers challenging "the system." It seems to me that anyone who receives revelation that brings a great change runs the risk of being "worshiped," of creating a new orthodoxy. Karl Barth, who brought out many helpful truths that I love (including the statement that "trinity" is not expressly stated in the bible, but that it is a means of describing the working of the three, when some were tending to emphasize only one of the three), deplored the fact - which he foresaw - that people who read his writings would become "Barthian." It is a tendency - a leaven - that we all would do well to fear. I read your initial post/reply more carefully, and I am wondering exactly what you feel about Viola's writings . . . |
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2016 15:52:48 GMT -5
It should be obvious to anyone who studies the history of religions, that Christianity has been built on many other religions from the past, including Pagan.
It seems that people must need a religion to keep them afloat and it doesn't matter much which one.
But of course even when built on preceding churches along the way, -it still doesn't stop people from arguing and actually fighting each other as to which church today is the TRUE church!
When we were in Rome the history of the San Clemente church was really very interesting along this line.
San Clemente is really three different worship sites built one on top of the other; -the lowest was a mithraeum.
There are two Christian basilica's, one on top of the other and the third worship site under those two was a worship site of Mithras !
Central to the main room of the sanctuary ( to Mithras) was found an altar, in the shape of a sarcophagus, and with the main cult relief of the tauroctony (the image of Mithras slaying a bull) on its front face.
One might argue that that was just physical, outward structure, but Christianity also embraced many of the pagan beliefs into their doctrine as well!
But no matter how one tries to get a clean, unadulterated, actual Christianity that goes all the ways back to the one on the "shores of Galilee" -you are simply not going to find it!
Even Paul & the apostles at Jerusalem could not agree.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Dec 31, 2016 17:41:34 GMT -5
Thanks for your response, Nathan. I am aware too that problems do occur among Nee's followers ("The Recovery"), but my intent was not in to compare them with the workers and friends, but rather to express appreciation for teachings I learned from childhood that questioned "mainstream Christianity," and to express a pleasant surprise and appreciation for others - Nee and Viola - who have added to that for me. I see many through the centuries - Luther, Calvin, Kierkegaard, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Ellul, to name a few - who have had revelation of truth, but who, like any human, have not "seen it all." I place both the workers and Nee right along with them. though things are complicated with William Irvine having gone "off the deep end," I appreciate him and other early workers challenging "the system." It seems to me that anyone who receives revelation that brings a great change runs the risk of being "worshiped," of creating a new orthodoxy. Karl Barth, who brought out many helpful truths that I love (including the statement that "trinity" is not expressly stated in the bible, but that it is a means of describing the working of the three, when some were tending to emphasize only one of the three), deplored the fact - which he foresaw - that people who read his writings would become "Barthian." It is a tendency - a leaven - that we all would do well to fear. I read your initial post/reply more carefully, and I am wondering exactly what you feel about Viola's writings . . .
I believe Viola's writing is to warn others about Christianity today has many pagans roots, and NOT of or from God. He wants to point others to return Jesus and the apostles New Testament fellowship. They have the home churches part down but they don't have the apostolic ministry in their group. John Govan, founder of the Faith Mission (1886) had the 2x2 apostolic ministry but they didn't have the home church, where the believers partaken the emblems/bread and wine in their group on Sunday. They didn't believing in baptizing their converts either.
With the help from Edward Cooney and others the 2x2 workers baptized their new converts (1902), they instituted the emblems/Bread and Wine in their Sunday morning meetings, and William Irvine brought the 2x2 apostolic itinerant ministry from Faith Mission group= created the Workers and friends New Testament fellowship as we KNOW today!To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909
~~ Edward Cooney (1898 2x2 worker) said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way... It was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men." ~~ Edward Cooney: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45)
~~ George Walker, 2x2 worker (1899) wrote to the American Selective service in 1942.
We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members. They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a RETURN to the methods and purpose taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them." As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian ere met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history.
Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary. The meetings continue to the present in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders, Baptism by Immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced. In the year 1903 ministers of this Christian body began their labors in the United States and in the year 1904 to Canada. In these and subsequent years through the preaching of the Gospel, assemblies were formed in homes as already described. In the 1906 the first annual conventions were held in North America, and from this beginning the number of Ministers in North America has grown to over 900 about equally divided between men and women; the assemblies for regular worship to over 3,000; and the annual convention over to 100.
Those who enter this ministry must first establish very definitely their religious character and have fulfilled the other qualifications consider necessary. They MUST be upright and of high principle having proven their ability to earn their living in an honorable and must have taken an active part in the Church meetings regularly attended. If and when are considered to have qualified, and are then appointed and assisted an experienced minister in an evangelistic work in ministering to assemblies of Christians. From the time of appointment, ministers devote their entire time and talents to the work of the ministry. If for sufficient reason anyone thus accepted later prove to be Unworthy or Unfit he can not continue in this ministry.
Signed
George Walker
~~ Why are there so MANY churches today? 40,000 denominations. History of the 1st century Church, the RCC, and Hundreds, thousands of Reformation Protestants. Good Video! to listen.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH79F0Hn56U |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jan 1, 2017 0:34:03 GMT -5
Thank you, Nathan. The "Recovery" church here on Guam has had a disagreement on the location of their meeting for the past several months, which has resulted in a home being used, in addition to the original room at UOG. I have appreciated observing their concern in seeing the problem resolved. One of their workers has been invited, and is coming in a few weeks to get a feel for the situation and to help heal. I am very interested in seeing how it is all handled. |
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Post by Grant on Jan 1, 2017 1:31:02 GMT -5
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jan 1, 2017 2:03:38 GMT -5
Yes, Nathan, Jayne and I have been meeting with the church here on Guam for two or three months now. Their workers are also itinerant, keeping themselves free to move from place to place to help or to plant churches. As I understand it, most have some means of supporting themselves, so as not to be a burden to churches they are helping. The one visiting here in a few weeks is doing so at his own expense (coming from the mainland), though the church here will likely offer him some assistance too. Of course, with my background in the meetings and as a worker, I am keenly interested in seeing the manner in which they operate.
Please understand that I say and do this with respect for what I have known, glad it has put the questions in my mind that challenge much of mainstream Christianity, while at the same time I must acknowledge the very serious problems that also exist among the workers and friends and need to be addressed. |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jan 1, 2017 2:15:23 GMT -5
I understand your concerns, enuf, and to some degree share them. While the followers of Nee do not consider those from other churches "not saved," they do tend to follow only Watchman Neeʻs and Witness Leeʻs interpretation of things. This does not bother me in their pointing out the manner of the NT church gatherings, but I feel we do them, ourselves, and others a disservice in listening to them to the exclusion of any others.
I am not too concerned about being labeled a cult or diverting from mainstream Christianity. While I receive instruction from teachers within mainstream Christianity too, I feel that we always run the risk of becoming "another orthodoxy," which becomes one more idol. I see this as having happened in many points within "mainstream," with "the truth," and possibly among Neeʻs and Leeʻs followers themselves. We must be ever open to judgment!
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Post by alistairhenderson on Jan 19, 2017 2:43:07 GMT -5
All good points!
What it boils down to is, wherever the Holy Spirit is at work in churches or individuals, there is Christ and the Father.
Methodology, meeting places etc,regardless of their origin, are ultimately less relevant than the personal relationship, healthy fellowship in a healthy church community, with support and accountability, and effective teaching in sound doctrine.
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Post by fixit on Feb 6, 2017 4:32:21 GMT -5
www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christ-Recovering-Lost-Light/dp/0802714498A provocative argument for a mystical, rather than historical, understanding of Jesus, leading to a radical rebirth of Christianity in our time. For forty years, scholar and religious commentator Tom Harpur has challenged church orthodoxy and guided thousands of readers on subjects as controversial as the true nature of Christ and life after death. Now, in his most radical and groundbreaking work, Harpur digs deep into the origins of Christianity. Long before the advent of Jesus Christ, the Egyptians and other peoples believed in the coming of a messiah, a virgin birth, a madonna and her child, and the incarnation of the spirit in flesh. While the early Christian church accepted these ancient truths as the very basis of Christianity, it disavowed their origins. What had begun as a universal belief system built on myth and allegory was transformed, by the third and fourth centuries A.D., into a ritualistic institution based on a literal interpretation of myths and symbols. But, as Tom Harpur argues in The Pagan Christ, "to take the Gospels literally as history or biography is to utterly miss their inner spiritual meaning." At a time of religious extremism, Tom Harpur reveals the virtue of a cosmic faith based on ancient truths that the modern church has renounced. His message is clear: Our blind faith in literalism is killing Christianity. Only with a return to an inclusive religion where Christ lives within each of us will we gain a true understanding of who we are and who we are intended to become. The Pagan Christ is a book of rare insight and power that will reilluminate the Bible and change the way we think about religion.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 11, 2017 5:30:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether I will read this book or not, but I do find the Pagan origins of numerous Judeo-Christian stories to be illuminating. I have recently been reading John Walton on Genesis 1 and 2, and J. Richard Middleton on the "Image of God." These were common Mesopotamian themes, and what these two writers point out is that the biblical authors simply used the common "worldviews" (not challenging the current "science") and utilized much in the myth that was parallel with their understanding of God, while highlighting critical distinctions. As Walton points out "taking it literally" would necessitate understanding the worldview through which the writer and his contemporaries understood things, rather than making it "literal" through our materialistic, "enlightenment" worldview. Walton feels the creation stories were not about physically creating the cosmos, but about "giving them purpose," much as "creating" a business now would not refer so much to constructing a building as to setting in order the relationships and processes necessary to a business. Both of these authors, in their different foci, point to a world "infused" with the Christ, with humans as the image - "agents" - of God, rather than statues, as established by kings (sometimes seen as gods) in the farther reaches of their empires. I find that these readings don't simply make a general, easy-to-accept religion. They point to something man has for eons been trying to accomplish (as in the Garden of Eden), yet only Jesus (the "firstborn, new Adam") has yet fully accomplished. But they do make much scripture suddenly clearer. Thanks for bringing up the subject, fixit. www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christ-Recovering-Lost-Light/dp/0802714498A provocative argument for a mystical, rather than historical, understanding of Jesus, leading to a radical rebirth of Christianity in our time. For forty years, scholar and religious commentator Tom Harpur has challenged church orthodoxy and guided thousands of readers on subjects as controversial as the true nature of Christ and life after death. Now, in his most radical and groundbreaking work, Harpur digs deep into the origins of Christianity. Long before the advent of Jesus Christ, the Egyptians and other peoples believed in the coming of a messiah, a virgin birth, a madonna and her child, and the incarnation of the spirit in flesh. While the early Christian church accepted these ancient truths as the very basis of Christianity, it disavowed their origins. What had begun as a universal belief system built on myth and allegory was transformed, by the third and fourth centuries A.D., into a ritualistic institution based on a literal interpretation of myths and symbols. But, as Tom Harpur argues in The Pagan Christ, "to take the Gospels literally as history or biography is to utterly miss their inner spiritual meaning." At a time of religious extremism, Tom Harpur reveals the virtue of a cosmic faith based on ancient truths that the modern church has renounced. His message is clear: Our blind faith in literalism is killing Christianity. Only with a return to an inclusive religion where Christ lives within each of us will we gain a true understanding of who we are and who we are intended to become. The Pagan Christ is a book of rare insight and power that will reilluminate the Bible and change the way we think about religion. |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Nov 2, 2018 2:38:45 GMT -5
It was interesting to revisit this thread this evening...
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Nov 2, 2018 7:00:39 GMT -5
Thank you for your comments, mr42. I have read a fair amount of both Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's writings since I last posted in this thread, and find that both of them take "literalness" to a point I would have been uncomfortable with two years ago. Commonly, "literal" becomes "the way our 21st century minds understand things," which distorts of the original intent of the writer. That being said, the Bible does not claim to explain things scientifically, but it does make claims that definitely "cannot be," according to our "rational," "scientific" outlook. It comes down to what we see as being "absolute" - the scientific method or the Word. A major issue for me, as for many, was the idea of a six-day creation. However, as Witness Lee points out, while Genesis 1:1 states that God created the heaven and earth, the same verse states that the earth " became void and without form (not "was"). This one verse basically covers an initial creation and subsequent chaos, Biblically attributed to Satan's rebellion. Genesis 1 then goes on to narrate the "remaking" of the earth, as a place for humanity, and does not intend a literal six days, but relates things in an order that teaches certain "truths." There's lots more to this, but the point I am making here is that although it is making claims about the purpose and meaning of the earth, it is not asking me to disbelieve the obvious evidence of a much older earth. I am veering from the thread's topic of Frank Viola's book, and I have not read further in his writings. I liked Viola's basic idea regarding home churches, but he presents a very autonomous church. Nee and Lee, while stressing the autonomous administration of the local church in each city, take it further, recovering Paulʻs writing on the body of Christ, and the indwelling, transforming Spirit. This has brought Paul's writings - which always seemed so hazy - into focus for me. Additionally, neither Nee nor Lee taught that Christians in other groups are "wrong," or "unsaved." They emphatically state that a practice such as home churches does not make persons right or wrong, but that they can facilitate the flow of the Spirit, issuing in transformation of humans, and ultimately the melding together of God and humanity in the New Jerusalem. It was interesting to revisit this thread this evening... Thanks for for bumping this thread. I went to the Amazon page and below is a quote from the book/author. I like it because it articulates what I have often felt/believed. People will argue all day about the provenance of a "new" Monet painting being discovered but the Bible seems to either be taken (sometimes) as absolute truth or absolute bunk. I see it more as; everything from God is/was pure at one point until we got our grubby mitts on it and twisted it to fit our small little minds. Now I've got to suss out the truth and point of the original words. "to take the Gospels literally as history or biography is to utterly miss their inner spiritual meaning." |
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Post by nathan on Nov 4, 2018 9:44:50 GMT -5
Thank you for your comments, mr42. I have read a fair amount of both Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's writings since I last posted in this thread, and find that both of them take "literalness" to a point I would have been uncomfortable with two years ago. Commonly, "literal" becomes "the way our 21st century minds understand things," which distorts of the original intent of the writer. That being said, the Bible does not claim to explain things scientifically, but it does make claims that definitely "cannot be," according to our "rational," "scientific" outlook. It comes down to what we see as being "absolute" - the scientific method or the Word. A major issue for me, as for many, was the idea of a six-day creation. However, as Witness Lee points out, while Genesis 1:1 states that God created the heaven and earth, the same verse states that the earth " became void and without form (not "was"). This one verse basically covers an initial creation and subsequent chaos, Biblically attributed to Satan's rebellion. Genesis 1 then goes on to narrate the "remaking" of the earth, as a place for humanity, and does not intend a literal six days, but relates things in an order that teaches certain "truths." There's lots more to this, but the point I am making here is that although it is making claims about the purpose and meaning of the earth, it is not asking me to disbelieve the obvious evidence of a much older earth.
Neanderthal and Denisovan Genomes | Ed Green
Published on Oct 7, 2015
Recent discoveries have radically changed our view of human evolution. In 2014, genome sequences harvested from Neanderthal bones confirmed that around 40.000 years ago Homo Neanderthalis not only came in contact with Homo Sapiens (modern humans), but also mated with them to produce fertile offspring.
Fossil and genetic evidence indicate that Neanderthals and modern humans evolved from a common ancestor between 350.000 and 400.000 years ago. As a result of a period of crossbreeding that may have taken some 10.000 years, nowadays Neanderthal-derived DNA accounts for an estimated 1–4% of the Eurasian genome, but it is significantly absent or uncommon in the genome of most Sub-Saharan African people. In Oceanian and Southeast Asian populations, there is a relative increase of Denisovan-derived DNA. An estimated 4–6% of the Melanesian genome is derived from Denisovans.
The Neanderthal contributions are peppered across the genome, and different people have different Neanderthal genes. Some of these genes are involved in functions such as battling infections and coping with a lack of sunlight. No evidence of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA has been found. This form of DNA is located outside the cell nucleus and is therefore transmitted by the mother only.
The question is how the interactions took place: Were they hostile in nature? Did they steal women and murder the men, like some tribes living in very remote areas still do today, as well as primates like gorilla's and chimpansees? Or did intercourse happen peacefully as a result of mutual attraction and curiosity?
In 2015, extensive research of human fossils that were unearthed years earlier in the Fuyan Caves in Daoxian in Southern China showed that modern humans already lived there 100.000 years ago. This indicates that Homo Sapiens presented itself in Asia much earlier than previously thought.
Although some were guessing this already, it was still a big surprise for many others. It's a fairly revolutionary idea because the 'common opinion' until recently was that Homo Sapiens evolved from about 200.000 to 150.000 years ago in Africa and traveled through the Middle East to colonize the world only about 50.000 to 60.000 years ago. This is called the Out of Africa (OOA) theory.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoXwQ_H3bRs
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Post by intelchips on Nov 10, 2018 8:54:45 GMT -5
Thank you for your comments, mr42. I have read a fair amount of both Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's writings since I last posted in this thread, and find that both of them take "literalness" to a point I would have been uncomfortable with two years ago. Commonly, "literal" becomes "the way our 21st century minds understand things," which distorts of the original intent of the writer. That being said, the Bible does not claim to explain things scientifically, but it does make claims that definitely "cannot be," according to our "rational," "scientific" outlook. It comes down to what we see as being "absolute" - the scientific method or the Word. A major issue for me, as for many, was the idea of a six-day creation. However, as Witness Lee points out, while Genesis 1:1 states that God created the heaven and earth, the same verse states that the earth " became void and without form (not "was"). This one verse basically covers an initial creation and subsequent chaos, Biblically attributed to Satan's rebellion. Genesis 1 then goes on to narrate the "remaking" of the earth, as a place for humanity, and does not intend a literal six days, but relates things in an order that teaches certain "truths." There's lots more to this, but the point I am making here is that although it is making claims about the purpose and meaning of the earth, it is not asking me to disbelieve the obvious evidence of a much older earth.
There were a lot of things happened in the Universe before God created Adam and Eve. In Rev. 12:7-9 It talks about there was a WAR in heaven between God and His angels fought against Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels. The wars in heaven is still going in the heaven, throughout the trillions galaxies, and on earth.... It will come to a great CLIMAX at the Final battle of Armageddon/in Israel between God's army Vs. Satan's army Rev. 16:16-21.
Science unlike religion is always seeking new answers to bring understanding out of the chaos. Answers that fit the model before us. Thus, the latest cosmology model is now looking to eliminating the singularity and predict that the universe had no beginning. It existed forever as a kind of quantum potential before ‘collapsing’ into the hot dense state we call the Big Bang. Unfortunately many armchair scientists now think that means ‘no singularity’ thus, ‘no big bang.’ Which is totally the wrong idea. |
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Post by Lee on Nov 10, 2018 9:34:33 GMT -5
That is how I understand now, Six-days creation was NOT a literal Six days, but relates things in an ORDER that teaches certain "Truths." It's TRUE that Adam and Eve were created by God 6000 yrs ago in the Garden of Eden, but the earth our Milky Way galaxy, and Solar system has been here for billions of years.
There were a lot of things happened in the Universe before God created Adam and Eve. In Rev. 12:7-9 It talks about there was a WAR in heaven between God and His angels fought against Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels. The wars in heaven is still going in the heaven, throughout the trillions galaxies, and on earth.... It will come to a great CLIMAX at the Final battle of Armageddon/in Israel between God's army Vs. Satan's army Rev. 16:16-21.
Science unlike religion is always seeking new answers to bring understanding out of the chaos. Answers that fit the model before us. Thus, the latest cosmology model is now looking to eliminating the singularity and predict that the universe had no beginning. It existed forever as a kind of quantum potential before ‘collapsing’ into the hot dense state we call the Big Bang. Unfortunately many armchair scientists now think that means ‘no singularity’ thus, ‘no big bang.’ Which is totally the wrong idea. God's eternal so eternal big bangs. Did I just say that? |
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Post by shushy on May 28, 2020 17:29:47 GMT -5
It should be obvious to anyone who studies the history of religions, that Christianity has been built on many other religions from the past, including Pagan.
It seems that people must need a religion to keep them afloat and it doesn't matter much which one.
But of course even when built on preceding churches along the way, -it still doesn't stop people from arguing and actually fighting each other as to which church today is the TRUE church!
When we were in Rome the history of the San Clemente church was really very interesting along this line.
San Clemente is really three different worship sites built one on top of the other; -the lowest was a mithraeum.
There are two Christian basilica's, one on top of the other and the third worship site under those two was a worship site of Mithras !
Central to the main room of the sanctuary ( to Mithras) was found an altar, in the shape of a sarcophagus, and with the main cult relief of the tauroctony (the image of Mithras slaying a bull) on its front face.
One might argue that that was just physical, outward structure, but Christianity also embraced many of the pagan beliefs into their doctrine as well!
But no matter how one tries to get a clean, unadulterated, actual Christianity that goes all the ways back to the one on the "shores of Galilee" -you are simply not going to find it!
Even Paul & the apostles at Jerusalem could not agree.
[/fon
Many old church buildings are covered with symbols of sexuality and fertility. |
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Post by BobWilliston on May 28, 2020 18:47:50 GMT -5
It should be obvious to anyone who studies the history of religions, that Christianity has been built on many other religions from the past, including Pagan.
It seems that people must need a religion to keep them afloat and it doesn't matter much which one.
But of course even when built on preceding churches along the way, -it still doesn't stop people from arguing and actually fighting each other as to which church today is the TRUE church!
When we were in Rome the history of the San Clemente church was really very interesting along this line.
San Clemente is really three different worship sites built one on top of the other; -the lowest was a mithraeum.
There are two Christian basilica's, one on top of the other and the third worship site under those two was a worship site of Mithras !
Central to the main room of the sanctuary ( to Mithras) was found an altar, in the shape of a sarcophagus, and with the main cult relief of the tauroctony (the image of Mithras slaying a bull) on its front face.
One might argue that that was just physical, outward structure, but Christianity also embraced many of the pagan beliefs into their doctrine as well!
But no matter how one tries to get a clean, unadulterated, actual Christianity that goes all the ways back to the one on the "shores of Galilee" -you are simply not going to find it!
Even Paul & the apostles at Jerusalem could not agree.
[/fon
Many old church buildings are covered with symbols of sexuality and fertility. But they cur the penis off David. |
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Post by intelchips on Jun 20, 2020 17:38:31 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 20, 2020 22:12:15 GMT -5
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Jun 21, 2020 7:26:31 GMT -5
I disagree that people use religion as a float...haha thats hilarious
In every human there is a need to connect.
We are emotional beings they have proved a child will die if it isnt touched,held, cuddled.
Believing in a higher power, acknowledging Christ as saviour is an individual personal relationship connecting reconciling with the father.
It isnt anyone elses business.
I believed from age 3yr when i had an encounter.
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