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Post by selah on Jul 14, 2006 13:11:29 GMT -5
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harry
New Member
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Post by harry on Jul 14, 2006 14:33:33 GMT -5
wonder what you are trying to imply?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2006 14:48:19 GMT -5
Probably she is implying that "If the shoe fits, wear it". Don't depair-- learn from it.
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Post by selah on Jul 14, 2006 16:04:01 GMT -5
wonder what you are trying to imply? There is no implication. I am outright saying that there are leaders who can lead you away from God's will. It is good to be prepared with a strategy when you come face to face with this very real trial. I have encountered some of these "lying leaders" within the f&w system and in other denominations as well. This is an interesting article, and helpful for avoiding the pitfalls of lying leaders. That's why I posted it. Blessings, Linda
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Post by mrleo on Jul 14, 2006 16:16:38 GMT -5
The only thing I disagreed with was the sweeping statement that the minister's spouse must be complicit. I'm sure there are spouses who are just as trusting and as easily taken in as any congregation member.
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Post by Second Glance on Jul 14, 2006 17:35:09 GMT -5
wonder what you are trying to imply? There is no implication. I am outright saying that there are leaders who can lead you away from God's will. It is good to be prepared with a strategy when you come face to face with this very real trial. I have encountered some of these "lying leaders" within the f&w system and in other denominations as well. This is an interesting article, and helpful for avoiding the pitfalls of lying leaders. That's why I posted it. Blessings, Linda But suppose David Kowalski is himself a lying leader who is publishing this to divert your attention with the hope that you will not learn his modus (or modi) operandi? He could be luring you right into a trap.
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Post by selah on Jul 14, 2006 18:10:22 GMT -5
Well, since I have no intention of following David Kowalski, that wouldn't work. I've found it very liberating to know that I can examine teaching without following the teacher. I can even believe the teaching without following the teacher.
The only one I follow and completely trust 100% is Jesus Christ. Every single other teacher is human just like me. I know that even with the best intentions, I can still be in error and so can anyone else. While I can and do develop an element of trust in some teachers, I always maintain my right and responsibility to weigh whatever I hear or read.
Few teachers will ask us to conform without question, but the ones who do can be persuasive. It does us good to be prepared and able to identify them.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by selah on Jul 14, 2006 18:22:17 GMT -5
The only thing I disagreed with was the sweeping statement that the minister's spouse must be complicit. I'm sure there are spouses who are just as trusting and as easily taken in as any congregation member. yes, i agree with what you've said.
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Post by prue on Jul 14, 2006 23:22:37 GMT -5
Hi Selah. Bert and Prue here
We read you link, and like it. We have added some ...
Charismatic preachers - charisma leads to emotion, and emotional control often leads to demagoguery. Charismatic leaders increase their stature and repudiate the weak and humble vessels who seek their own decrease.
Financial gain - preachers who gain materially are more tempted to exploit their situation.
The charmer - flatters the congregation rather than speaking about Christ. And it is the vision of Christ which gives us no ground for personal flattery.
Ignorance - don't encourage people to read their bibles. Simply quote from it, and based sermons on bible stories as if the people have not/need not, read it themselves. Distract people with outside issues, ie social justice, racism, multi-culturalism etc.
Thinking - refer to "critical thinking skills" rather than simple faith in the gospel. Pretend the gospel is about thinking rather than feeling.
Community control - the preacher stays in his or her community without moving on. This encourages social control.
Slippery slope morality - keep the congregation by making it easy by relaxing biblical scruples, ie it doesn't matter what you wear if your heart is right. It doesn't matter if you mock, ridicule or attack others as long as you have a good reason. Divorce doesn't matter anymore. The pleasure of the world spoken about in the bible don't include anything in our more righteous world today. The straight and narrow way was only for Jesus' followers. The Cross is a piece of jewellery.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 14, 2006 23:31:32 GMT -5
Hmmm, let's apply these categories......
1) Charismatic preachers - winsome speakers who enthrall their listeners with stories of other countries, and how such-and-such reprofessed just before they died.
2) Financial gain - a system that has absolutely no open accountability to the congregation is rife for temptation and abuse
3) Charmer - flatters the group into thinking they are the only right ones, the special ones who obey Jesus and everyone else is deceived
4) Ignorance - don't encourage people to really study their bibles. Supply filters instead so whatever the Bible says has to be reshaped
5) Thinking - nup...can't apply this one at all
6) Community control - threaten people with stories of such-and-such who wanted to go out and taste the world and died in a car accident and now faces a lost eternity
7) Slippery slope morality - it's okay to lie, psychologically abuse people, blaspheme the H.S. etc as long as it's in the name of "The Way"
Yep. Apart from category 5 I can see lots of applicability.
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Post by prue on Jul 14, 2006 23:42:56 GMT -5
hey Rob! You seem to be on-line everytime I pass this way! Bert p.s. we are getting RAIN here in NSW, the paddocks are pools of water ... how is it up there in Qld?
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IQ
Senior Member
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Post by IQ on Jul 14, 2006 23:46:20 GMT -5
Hmmm, let's apply these categories...... 1) Charismatic preachers - winsome speakers who enthrall their listeners with stories of other countries, and how such-and-such reprofessed just before they died. 2) Financial gain - a system that has absolutely no open accountability to the congregation is rife for temptation and abuse 3) Charmer - flatters the group into thinking they are the only right ones, the special ones who obey Jesus and everyone else is deceived 4) Ignorance - don't encourage people to really study their bibles. Supply filters instead so whatever the Bible says has to be reshaped 5) Thinking - nup...can't apply this one at all 6) Community control - threaten people with stories of such-and-such who wanted to go out and taste the world and died in a car accident and now faces a lost eternity 7) Slippery slope morality - it's okay to lie, psychologically abuse people, blaspheme the H.S. etc as long as it's in the name of "The Way" Yep. Apart from category 5 I can see lots of applicability. Ha, arent you clever, try thinking up these on your own next time...
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Post by Rob O on Jul 14, 2006 23:49:38 GMT -5
Hi Pruebert,
We have some rain. Don't know how much yet. It isn't heavy or sustained though so won't make any difference to our water supplies!!!!
----------------
As an aside, looks like I need some more troll repellent.
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Post by prue on Jul 14, 2006 23:56:12 GMT -5
1) Charismatic preachers - winsome speakers who enthrall their listeners with stories of other countries, and how such-and-such reprofessed just before they died. Yes, such stories are all through the bible, and they would have been spoken about when they actually happened. Phillip would have told all about the eunuch he met. But that's not charisma.2) Financial gain - a system that has absolutely no open accountability to the congregation is rife for temptation and abuse Yes, money given to workers is worker's money, and is used for the gospel, not for cars, houses or worker's retirement farms.3) Charmer - flatters the group into thinking they are the only right ones, the special ones who obey Jesus and everyone else is deceived Jesus and his followers said they were the only ones - but it wasn't flattery.4) Ignorance - don't encourage people to really study their bibles. Supply filters instead so whatever the Bible says has to be reshaped Urging people to read their bibles each day, and having bible subjects is a wonderful in understanding the bible.5) Thinking - nup...can't apply this one at all er...6) Community control - threaten people with stories of such-and-such who wanted to go out and taste the world and died in a car accident and now faces a lost eternity No-one should connect a car accident to someone who left. It says in the psalms that many who hate God lead prosperous lives.7) Slippery slope morality - it's okay to lie, psychologically abuse people, blaspheme the H.S. etc as long as it's in the name of "The Way" physchological abuse here is what some call it who really are abusing themselves.Yep. Apart from category 5 I can see lots of applicability.
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Post by Rob O on Jul 15, 2006 0:05:54 GMT -5
Pruebert, my point is that any generalizations levelled against non-F&Ws usually equally apply to them. It appears you also agree on some level. However, the two groups (1) the redeemed who spend eternity with God, and (2) the F&W's
are not co-extensive sets. Set 1 includes some from set 2. But set 2 does not contain all of set 1.
You are reasonably smart. I just hope one day you figure out that one can completely reject membership of set 2 and yet still firmly belong to set 1.
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jumper
New Member
ultimate freedom
Posts: 27
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Post by jumper on Jul 15, 2006 1:19:27 GMT -5
Well, since I have no intention of following David Kowalski, that wouldn't work. I've found it very liberating to know that I can examine teaching without following the teacher. I can even believe the teaching without following the teacher. The only one I follow and completely trust 100% is Jesus Christ. Every single other teacher is human just like me. I know that even with the best intentions, I can still be in error and so can anyone else. While I can and do develop an element of trust in some teachers, I always maintain my right and responsibility to weigh whatever I hear or read. Few teachers will ask us to conform without question, but the ones who do can be persuasive. It does us good to be prepared and able to identify them. Blessings, Linda i agree.. leaders are great and i believe inspired from god. however god wants us to take that and that and examine it. it is the examination that makes it our own and makes it work in our life. it also allows us to reject things that are false.
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Post by selah on Jul 15, 2006 11:18:58 GMT -5
AMEN!
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