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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 11:02:00 GMT -5
Beth on every occasion I back up my beliefs with scripture. In fact I only use scripture itself, NOT other peoples' interpretations or explanations. I deliberately REMAIN within scripture. The trouble is that all I get is this type of accusation/remarks. So far NO ONE has had the courage to properly address what I write (except perhaps Nathan with his myriad of copy and pastes and youtubes). I try to give "meanings" to scripture I quote but no one responds with their understandings of these things.At least THREE times recently I have beseeched people NOT to believe what I say but to make oneself approved of God and to diligently seek these things out for themselves, like the noble Bereans did. Search the scriptures to see if things are so. We need to approach them with in a proper condition before God and to put every other thought or influence to one side, using an unbiased and contrite mind. I cannot ask anyone to do more than that. I would like you to show me one occasion where my beliefs have not been backed up by scripture. Can you do it? How do you interpret John 8:58 where Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." In that verse not only is He claiming pre-existence to Abraham but also using the same name God gave Himself in Exodus... Jesus is speaking on behalf of the Father. I could type screeds to put my point across but on the occasion have posted the below link as I believe this person explains things better than I can. Please note, this is not for 2x2's. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo2bKdlKyC4
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 11:34:24 GMT -5
Why does Jesus tell Satan, that one should worship only God, but never corrected anyone the many times he was worshipped? He accepted the worship of many people! If he was not God, this would be blasphemous, and then he was clearly not sinless, and then was not the perfect sacrifice...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 12:06:20 GMT -5
Why does Jesus tell Satan, that one should worship only God, but never corrected anyone the many times he was worshipped? He accepted the worship of many people! If he was not God, this would be blasphemous, and then he was clearly not sinless, and then was not the perfect sacrifice... As with many things in the Bible we must consider "context." I had a better article dealing with your question but seem to have lost it? However, this one should go some way towards providing you with an answer? www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christ
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 12:33:02 GMT -5
Ah yes, I'm sure you have plenty of resources to support your argument. However, I will continually go back to scripture. I'm sure you have an explanation for John 1, and Romans 1, Matt 1, and Revelation 1 and the myriad of other scriptures in the book that point to his Lordship. Obviously scripture isn't enough for you.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 13:22:12 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 17:02:41 GMT -5
Ah yes, I'm sure you have plenty of resources to support your argument. However, I will continually go back to scripture. I'm sure you have an explanation for John 1, and Romans 1, Matt 1, and Revelation 1 and the myriad of other scriptures in the book that point to his Lordship. Obviously scripture isn't enough for you. I believe I have posted about "two" outside sources in recent times? With due respect, I think if you go back over my posts you will see that I am at the forefront of those who use scripture to support my beliefs. Do you want to continue with John 1?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 17:30:28 GMT -5
Fair play to the author. He states the narrative is his "opinion" and admits he could be wrong. However, NOT once does the author use Jesus' reactions to such events. On one occasion when a man addressed Jesus as "good master," Jesus quizzed him, "why callest me good? There is none that is good save God the Father (paraphrased). In everything Jesus directed the honour and glory to God the Father. He tells us clearly that of himself he could do nothing, but by the Father!" What many fail to appreciate is that Jesus is a human being who has 100% submitted himself to God the Father and that it is God who is working through him. Jesus clearly tells us that his words and deeds were not his own but the Father's. In Jesus there are two personages. His own and God the Father. Jesus said that those who saw him, saw the Father. They saw the express image of God. God revealed himself through Jesus. You worship God through Jesus, not worship Jesus as God! Today, Jesus rules over the universe in his glorified human body on behalf of and at the right hand of Almighty God. As a result of what he achieved God has enthroned him and given him all power in heaven and on earth until he eventually defeats all his enemies, the last of which is death. Then he returns that power to his Father and his God, the Almighty God. By virtue of his position Jesus reigns today as Mighty God, but he is not the Almighty God. That remains his Father and his God.
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gells
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Hi sorry
Feb 4, 2016 17:37:33 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 17:37:33 GMT -5
No. I looked up the arguments against it. It's a stretch and includes adding to and twisting scripture. it clearly says the word was god, was with God, and was made flesh and dwelt among us. That's all I need to know. I don't need a vain explanation of what John actually meant. John meant what he said. And if you need some more modern explanation of what he meant, then go for it. But technically all we need is scripture to interpret scripture. I posted an article to refute how worship doesn't mean worship, although clearly you didn't read it or simply don't care. We can continue with the verse and the Greek word, because your article proved nothing. The writers of the New Testament used the same word for worship for when Jesus told satan that one only worships the lord as when he accepted worship from other men. So ignore it all you want and find ways around what is actually written all you want. it has been translated many times, but I believe that God has control over the scriptures and there are no errors in his word. As it says itself, it's inerrant. I don't believe that any outside interpreters are necessary. If they were, it wouldn't be inerrant.
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gells
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Hi sorry
Feb 4, 2016 17:57:39 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 17:57:39 GMT -5
Actually, you actually fail to understand that we do believe that he was 100% man.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 18:32:57 GMT -5
Actually, you actually fail to understand that we do believe that he was 100% man. How can something be 200%?
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gells
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Hi sorry
Feb 4, 2016 18:40:30 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 18:40:30 GMT -5
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3... This chapter and those before it speak extensively about how men are sinners. All men. Jews and Gentiles. Jesus was a Jew. How can Jesus be a sacrifice if he is only a man? That would mean that he's a sinner. But we know he couldn't be. Because then he couldn't be a worthy sacrifice. So which is it? Does scripture contradict itself?
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gells
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Hi sorry
Feb 4, 2016 18:44:27 GMT -5
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 18:44:27 GMT -5
Going off that same chapter, it talks about how no one does good not one. So Jesus must have been saying that about himself, so chapter the 3 must be speaking of him too, right? Oh wait. That doesn't work.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 18:45:15 GMT -5
No. I looked up the arguments against it. It's a stretch and includes adding to and twisting scripture. it clearly says the word was god, was with God, and was made flesh and dwelt among us. That's all I need to know. I don't need a vain explanation of what John actually meant. John meant what he said. And if you need some more modern explanation of what he meant, then go for it. But technically all we need is scripture to interpret scripture. I posted an article to refute how worship doesn't mean worship, although clearly you didn't read it or simply don't care. We can continue with the verse and the Greek word, because your article proved nothing. The writers of the New Testament used the same word for worship for when Jesus told satan that one only worships the lord as when he accepted worship from other men. So ignore it all you want and find ways around what is actually written all you want. it has been translated many times, but I believe that God has control over the scriptures and there are no errors in his word. As it says itself, it's inerrant. I don't believe that any outside interpreters are necessary. If they were, it wouldn't be inerrant. John most certainly meant what he said. The word most certainly WAS God, but the word WASN'T Jesus! Deut. 18.18 tells us clearly how the word was made flesh. God was speaking to Moses. Think! I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Jesus never claimed that he, himself, was the word of God. He most definitely John 12.49 is one of several places where Jesus tells us that his words are not his own, but are the Father's words (word of God) Jesus denies he is the "word!" He expresses the Father's word! For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.This is sup[ported many other places in scripture. Hebrews 1 for example: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SonStraight from scripture. No twisting. And there's loads more!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 18:54:09 GMT -5
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3... This chapter and those before it speak extensively about how men are sinners. All men. Jews and Gentiles. Jesus was a Jew. How can Jesus be a sacrifice if he is only a man? That would mean that he's a sinner. But we know he couldn't be. Because then he couldn't be a worthy sacrifice. So which is it? Does scripture contradict itself? I'm not doing your homework for you. Your next lesson is Romans Chapter 5. Who decides what God wants? Us or God? The Bible is clear that Jesus was without sin. That is why he was the perfect sacrifice. He was 100% obedient to God!
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 18:59:19 GMT -5
Read those verses again, Ram. God says that he will give his words to Moses... His words. He doesn't refer to it as The Word. Notice that every time John says it, it is capitalized. He is clearly making a distinction here. God gave his words to many prophets, but John1:14 clearly speaks that it refers to Jesus. I'll will type out the whole thing for you: 15. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth. 15. John bare witness of him and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that comes after me is preferred before me.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:02:45 GMT -5
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3... This chapter and those before it speak extensively about how men are sinners. All men. Jews and Gentiles. Jesus was a Jew. How can Jesus be a sacrifice if he is only a man? That would mean that he's a sinner. But we know he couldn't be. Because then he couldn't be a worthy sacrifice. So which is it? Does scripture contradict itself? I'm not doing your homework for you. Your next lesson is Romans Chapter 5. Who decides what God wants? Us or God? The Bible is clear that Jesus was without sin. That is why he was the perfect sacrifice. He was 100% obedient to God! How can he be 100% obedient to God, when it clearly says no man can be?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:04:16 GMT -5
Read those verses again, Ram. God says that he will give his words to Moses... His words. He doesn't refer to it as The Word. Notice that every time John says it, it is capitalized. He is clearly making a distinction here. God gave his words to many prophets, but John1:14 clearly speaks that it refers to Jesus. I'll will type out the whole thing for you: 15. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth. 15. John bare witness of him and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that comes after me is preferred before me. Your talking nonsense. God is telling Moses that he will raise up a Prophet (Jesus), LIKE Moses, from amongst his brethren , into whom HE WOULD PUT HIS WORDS. This is regularly corroborated by Jesus himself, Hebrews 1 and many other places. Sorry, but I am getting a tad weary with this. Please take time to read, study, ask God. Don't be so keen to go for the reflex action. When you have done that we might consider further dialogue. Study Romans 5 to get you back on track with things there also.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:05:01 GMT -5
I've read Romans 5. Just read it again,
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:09:50 GMT -5
I apologize for reading the Deuteronomy passage too quickly. However, it doesn't diminish what John said. Jesus did have Gods words. That doesn't mean he wasn't the Word.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:10:55 GMT -5
I'm not doing your homework for you. Your next lesson is Romans Chapter 5. Who decides what God wants? Us or God? The Bible is clear that Jesus was without sin. That is why he was the perfect sacrifice. He was 100% obedient to God! How can he be 100% obedient to God, when it clearly says no man can be? Where does the Bible say that no man can be? Don't you believe in God's power to raise up a human being, give him his spirit and preserve him? God's standards are the "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God!" That is 100% obedience to God. Adam and Eve lived by that before they disobeyed God. Some think they were obedient for 100 years of more, but I don't know? Anyway, where Adam failed, God raised up Jesus to succeed. Adam was created carnal man who walked with God in 100% obedience in the Garden of Eden. until he fell away. He was regularly in the presence of God. Jesus was sent just like Adam but as the quickening spirit. He was born with the Spirit of God, whereas the rest of us were not. We have to accept Christ and be "born again" with this same spirit. We too then become like Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:13:01 GMT -5
I apologize for reading the Deuteronomy passage too quickly. However, it doesn't diminish what John said. Jesus did have Gods words. That doesn't mean he wasn't the Word. Jesus clearly tells us the words that are not his own but the Father's. That clearly tells us that Jesus was not the word itself. God spoke "through" Jesus. Jesus confirms things himself when he tells us that the Father gives him the things to say. After Pentecost every Christian has this same privilege.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:13:58 GMT -5
I've read Romans 5. Just read it again, Thanks. Jesus = man!
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:16:14 GMT -5
You are ignoring the scripture I am referring to.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:18:33 GMT -5
You are ignoring the scripture I am referring to. Which one? It's getting very late where I am. I'm struggling to keep up with you!
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:20:33 GMT -5
The verses following John 1:14
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:21:12 GMT -5
I never said Jesus wasn't a man. He had to be.
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gells
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Post by gells on Feb 4, 2016 19:23:55 GMT -5
And Romans 3:9-18 ( Not one does good. This must be why Jesus apparently rebuked a man for calling him good.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:31:59 GMT -5
Actually, you actually fail to understand that we do believe that he was 100% man. How can something be 200%? Because it's God and He can do anything He wants. But really, in all seriousness...do you have to be able to fully explain and understand everything about God to believe in Him, to believe something to be true? I watched the video, I didn't understand his point. I don't really think many who argue against the trinity really understand what it really is that trinitarians believe. Maybe if you explain what the trinity means to you, that would be helpful. I brought up that verse not really addressing the trinity, but more addressing your disbelief in Jesus' eternal existence.
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