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Post by Lee on Feb 12, 2016 12:44:33 GMT -5
Theists maintain the universe is causative, and in one manner or another, have trimmed their sails. Atheists want to blow around with the wind, and would us all. As is usual for you, Lee, you haven't the foggiest idea about atheists.
Of course. No one should expect clarity from fog.
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Post by rational on Feb 12, 2016 16:54:06 GMT -5
As is usual for you, Lee, you haven't the foggiest idea about atheists. :D
Of course. No one should expect clarity from fog. And, speaking only for myself, your responses are perfect examples of foggy thinking. But, as you said, I didn't expect clarity from you. As you said: Theists maintain the universe is causative, and in one manner or another, have trimmed their sails.and I feel this is correct. You look at the universe, throw in a god of the gaps, and think you have a solution. Some who might be more skeptical look at the universe and actually want answers to the questions they ask other than "God did it!" It will be interesting to see the spin applied to the things that come out of the detection of gravity waves. The implication of Galileo looking through a telescope observing the planets did not seem to be a big thing at first but look at the fallout and the backtracking the church had to do.
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Post by Lee on Feb 19, 2016 3:05:25 GMT -5
Check this out
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Post by snow on Feb 23, 2016 14:12:29 GMT -5
Could the reason we are interested in being on this board, the Truth Meetings Board ('The Truth'), is because it is a board about a topic in which we are all related by one common denominator?
That common denominator is a belief known here as F&W's or 2x2's. ('The Truth'). Some are still in the church, some out & some went to other churches, some of us just out.
I find it interesting that those still in often "debate" differences amongst themselves. Those out, "debate" what is wrong with the 2x2's vs their new church.
It is also interesting to note that all of those in or out, but still consider themselves to be Christians, don't argue that the others should not participate on this board.
However, when an atheist says anything, -even though we were once affiliated with that same group, -suddenly we become persona non grata.
Umfolozi, can you explain why some people like yourself seem to feel that we who are atheists should not participate in the discussion?
DMG ~ Your comment regarding a common denominator among folks once associated with the 2x2's I found most interesting, since I have noticed myself that a number of folks leaving the 2x2's have become atheists compared to moving on to another church environment. Could it possibility be the labeling of ALL churches outside the 2x2's as being false that contributes to this phenomena? Speaking for myself, I know how 30 years in the 2x2's affected me overall and when I left over burn-out, I also was very apprehensive about venturing out into the church world due to the negative conditioning received by workers over the years. However, I did manage to overcome this apprehension and eventually found a church that was a good fit for me after some years of searching.
Personally, I couldn't help wondering how those "old tapes" from meeting days hindered my advancement? But, as I learned to identify what the Bible really taught on issues compared to the workers, I was astounded by how much I was deceived over the years by 2x2 teachings and traditions. Perhaps it's just hard letting go of all these lies and admitting to ourselves that we have been "duped" by a cultish group that makes such a transition so hard? Honestly, I feel if we did a poll of how many became atheists after the 2x2's, I believe the numbers would be exceedingly high compared to those who went on to other churches.
Also, let's not forget those who simply became irreligious after departing the 2x2's and lost all interest in proceeding further as a result of their involvement with the 2x2's. Surely, such statistics should speak for themselves regarding the lack of basic Christian teaching received within the 2x2's due to another gospel message surrounding the workers' own Perfect Way affecting the end results?
Finally, in closing, I feel the diversity on this board makes for a good learning experience for all who participate. The variety of opinions shared as a result is truly thought provoking. Without this freedom to express yourself, this board would probably become boring over time and not a place desired to hang out in the future. JMT
While agree with you about most of this, I don't agree that atheists just haven't found the 'right' church yet. Why aren't you going to a mosque? Have you not found the 'right' one yet? Or is it more to do with the fact that you do not see how Islam can be the 'true' religion? For me, there is absolutely no way it's possible to believe any religion is true for many many well thought out reasons. So for me, it isn't because I haven't found the 'right' church or mosque or temple. It's because it makes no sense to me that such a being exists. There may be something that is larger and more intelligent, in fact it wouldn't be hard to imagine, but the characterization of most Gods in most religions is usually a being that judges and either rewards or punishes. The likelihood of this being true, imo, is so low. I have posted a rather long video of Sam Harris on my What I learned today thread. He says it well I think.
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Post by faune on Feb 23, 2016 18:52:35 GMT -5
DMG ~ Your comment regarding a common denominator among folks once associated with the 2x2's I found most interesting, since I have noticed myself that a number of folks leaving the 2x2's have become atheists compared to moving on to another church environment. Could it possibility be the labeling of ALL churches outside the 2x2's as being false that contributes to this phenomena? Speaking for myself, I know how 30 years in the 2x2's affected me overall and when I left over burn-out, I also was very apprehensive about venturing out into the church world due to the negative conditioning received by workers over the years. However, I did manage to overcome this apprehension and eventually found a church that was a good fit for me after some years of searching.
Personally, I couldn't help wondering how those "old tapes" from meeting days hindered my advancement? But, as I learned to identify what the Bible really taught on issues compared to the workers, I was astounded by how much I was deceived over the years by 2x2 teachings and traditions. Perhaps it's just hard letting go of all these lies and admitting to ourselves that we have been "duped" by a cultish group that makes such a transition so hard? Honestly, I feel if we did a poll of how many became atheists after the 2x2's, I believe the numbers would be exceedingly high compared to those who went on to other churches.
Also, let's not forget those who simply became irreligious after departing the 2x2's and lost all interest in proceeding further as a result of their involvement with the 2x2's. Surely, such statistics should speak for themselves regarding the lack of basic Christian teaching received within the 2x2's due to another gospel message surrounding the workers' own Perfect Way affecting the end results?
Finally, in closing, I feel the diversity on this board makes for a good learning experience for all who participate. The variety of opinions shared as a result is truly thought provoking. Without this freedom to express yourself, this board would probably become boring over time and not a place desired to hang out in the future. JMT
While agree with you about most of this, I don't agree that atheists just haven't found the 'right' church yet. Why aren't you going to a mosque? Have you not found the 'right' one yet? Or is it more to do with the fact that you do not see how Islam can be the 'true' religion? For me, there is absolutely no way it's possible to believe any religion is true for many well thought out reasons. So for me, it isn't because I haven't found the 'right' church or mosque or temple. It's because it makes no sense to me that such a being exists. There may be something that is larger and more intelligent, in fact it wouldn't be hard to imagine, but the characterization of most Gods in most religions is usually a being that judges and either rewards or punishes. The likelihood of this being true, imo, is so low. I have posted a rather long video of Sam Harris on my What I learned today thread. He says it well I think. Snow ~ Glad to see you back posting again! I honestly don't believe there is any such animal as the "the one true church." However, I do believe it's possible to find a healthy church environment that edifies and builds you up spiritually, if you persist in seeking the same. The world is full of all kind of ideas about God and the number of denominations only give proof to this fact. However, church is a community of people who share like beliefs and becomes like a second family to many. But, there is no such entity as a Perfect Church or Perfect Way and anybody who claims such are deluding themselves. In addition, I do understand how it's hard to believe in any supernatural deity behind the universe after once being "burned" by some aberrant religious group claiming to have the corner on salvation. The number it does on you takes years to recovery and heal emotionally. That's something I can speak from experience, too.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 23, 2016 19:24:02 GMT -5
While agree with you about most of this, I don't agree that atheists just haven't found the 'right' church yet. Why aren't you going to a mosque? Have you not found the 'right' one yet? Or is it more to do with the fact that you do not see how Islam can be the 'true' religion? For me, there is absolutely no way it's possible to believe any religion is true for many well thought out reasons. So for me, it isn't because I haven't found the 'right' church or mosque or temple. It's because it makes no sense to me that such a being exists. There may be something that is larger and more intelligent, in fact it wouldn't be hard to imagine, but the characterization of most Gods in most religions is usually a being that judges and either rewards or punishes. The likelihood of this being true, imo, is so low. I have posted a rather long video of Sam Harris on my What I learned today thread. He says it well I think. Snow ~ Glad to see you back posting again! I honestly don't believe there is any such animal as the "the one true church." However, I do believe it's possible to find a healthy church environment that edifies and builds you up spiritually, if you persist in seeking the same. The world is full of all kind of ideas about God and the number of denominations only give proof to this fact. However, church is a community of people who share like beliefs and becomes like a second family to many. But, there is no such entity as a Perfect Church or Perfect Way and anybody who claims such are deluding themselves. In addition, I do understand how it's hard to believe in any supernatural deity behind the universe after once being "burned" by some aberrant religious group claiming to have the corner on salvation. The number it does on you takes years to recovery and heal emotionally. That's something I can speak from experience, too. Faune, being "burned" by being in the 2x2's is NOT the reason that I realized that their is NO evidence for a "supernatural being" called a "god!"
It simply is NOT that I am having to "take years to recovery and heal emotionally."
You seem to believe that eventually some of us will just "recover, heal" & will become Christians again!
It simply won't happen for me unless I become senile!
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Post by faune on Feb 23, 2016 19:49:35 GMT -5
Snow ~ Glad to see you back posting again! I honestly don't believe there is any such animal as the "the one true church." However, I do believe it's possible to find a healthy church environment that edifies and builds you up spiritually, if you persist in seeking the same. The world is full of all kind of ideas about God and the number of denominations only give proof to this fact. However, church is a community of people who share like beliefs and becomes like a second family to many. But, there is no such entity as a Perfect Church or Perfect Way and anybody who claims such are deluding themselves. In addition, I do understand how it's hard to believe in any supernatural deity behind the universe after once being "burned" by some aberrant religious group claiming to have the corner on salvation. The number it does on you takes years to recovery and heal emotionally. That's something I can speak from experience, too. Faune, being "burned" by being in the 2x2's is NOT the reason that I realized that their is NO evidence for a "supernatural being" called a "god!"
It simply is NOT that I am having to "take years to recovery and heal emotionally."
You seem to believe that eventually some of us will just "recover, heal" & will become Christians again!
It simply won't happen for me unless I become senile!
DMG ~ I was mainly speaking for myself above. However, how we heal from religious deception may be differ for others and lead down a completely different road altogether due to knowledge gained. I don't fault you in any way for your choice as I realize the process is different for every person in recovery from a bad religious experience, whether it be within the 2x2's or some other aberrant group making wild claims about their belief system. Personally, I don't feel any animal exists such as a "one and only true church" in this world, which is greatly misleading in itself when such claims are made.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 23, 2016 23:50:16 GMT -5
Faune, being "burned" by being in the 2x2's is NOT the reason that I realized that their is NO evidence for a "supernatural being" called a "god!"
It simply is NOT that I am having to "take years to recovery and heal emotionally."
You seem to believe that eventually some of us will just "recover, heal" & will become Christians again!
It simply won't happen for me unless I become senile!
DMG ~ I was mainly speaking for myself above. However, how we heal from religious deception may be differ for others and lead down a completely different road altogether due to knowledge gained. I don't fault you in any way for your choice as I realize the process is different for every person in recovery from a bad religious experience, whether it be within the 2x2's or some other aberrant group making wild claims about their belief system. Personally, I don't feel any animal exists such as a "one and only true church" in this world, which is greatly misleading in itself when such claims are made.
Faune, -I don't think that you understand yet what I mean. I do NOT consider the 2x2's as any more of an "aberrant group," than any as any other Christian group!
Definition of aberrant 1 : straying from the right or normal way 2 : deviating from the usual or natural type :
How are the 2x2's any more "straying from the right or normal way" than any other Christian church?
How are the 2x2's any more "deviating from the usual or natural type" than any other Christian church?
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 2:30:40 GMT -5
Actually in my thread about CSA I did specifically asked that only current 2x2 members participate. Not everyone pays close attention to thread titles. If you look through archived threads with titles requesting limited participation, you will find "violations" come from all directions. 😄
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 2:32:36 GMT -5
I'm going to be a bit cynical here and say that without atheists on the board 90% of the interesting posts on this board would disappear. Christians just love to tell the story ... heard it all before. It's atheists that can think in new and original ways, which is great in that the world keeps spitting up new and original problems. Without atheists, or let's say, Christian doubters, I don't think there would be any progress in the world. Religious people, Christians or Muslims, Hindu's not so much, often trust in solutions and ideas that have had their day. Want to fall into a pit, then blindly follow a cookie-cutter Christian; it says so right in the Bible. What is generally true in the world, is also true on this board. The atheists on this board tend to be dispassionate, articulate, progressive and objective. By the way, I am not one. ...there you go!🙄😄
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 2:35:30 GMT -5
I just scroll past much of the atheists verbiage. But the atheists are kinda cute😁
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Post by benar on Feb 19, 2020 4:35:23 GMT -5
I just scroll past much of the atheists verbiage. But the atheists are kinda cute😁 Is this a sign of a closed mind?
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Post by ant_rotten on Feb 19, 2020 6:37:27 GMT -5
Why does atheist find this board so attractive ? It deals mostly with topic's that they don't believe in,is there not enough atheist boards/discussion sites on the internet ?And even when one asks that only current 2x2 members participate in a debate,some will still poke there noses in. Atheists are welcome here. There are other sites that ban atheists. I can speak from experience 😉
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 9:55:32 GMT -5
I just scroll past much of the atheists verbiage. But the atheists are kinda cute😁 Is this a sign of a closed mind? There are many things I WANT to have a closed mind to.
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 12:10:25 GMT -5
Is this a sign of a closed mind? There are many things I WANT to have a closed mind to. You have a closed mind to God. You have a closed mind to things that are important to other people on these boards. Not just a closed mind, but an angry tone. Yes I have a closed mind, thank goodness, to some things, but is it possible for you to see YOURSELF in what bothers you about others? It seems not. That takes a lot of honesty and that kind of honesty doesn't make us LOOK good.
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Post by benar on Feb 19, 2020 17:32:52 GMT -5
There are many things I WANT to have a closed mind to. You have a closed mind to God. You have a closed mind to things that are important to other people on these boards. Not just a closed mind, but an angry tone. Yes I have a closed mind, thank goodness, to some things, but is it possible for you to see YOURSELF in what bothers you about others? It seems not. That takes a lot of honesty and that kind of honesty doesn't make us LOOK good. What do you think an open mind is? Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. If one is not interested in examining the evidence against one's position, then one is truly closed-minded. You may accuse me of other things, but closed-minded I am not. Give me evidence of a god and I will have no choice but to believe.
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 19:00:34 GMT -5
You have a closed mind to God. You have a closed mind to things that are important to other people on these boards. Not just a closed mind, but an angry tone. Yes I have a closed mind, thank goodness, to some things, but is it possible for you to see YOURSELF in what bothers you about others? It seems not. That takes a lot of honesty and that kind of honesty doesn't make us LOOK good. What do you think an open mind is? Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. If one is not interested in examining the evidence against one's position, then one is truly closed-minded. You may accuse me of other things, but closed-minded I am not. Give me evidence of a god and I will have no choice but to believe. We must have FAITH, and if we don't have faith, we cannot understand. Hebrews 11:3 KJV Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. If we have no faith, there is nothing anyone can do to give us the evidence that we think we need to believe. Hebrews 11:6 KJV But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. And so if we have a closed mind to the scriptures also then there's no point in anyone trying to convince us of anything about God at all. You say "Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it" Well then I guess that means I have an open mind after all because I simply do not allow myself to believe your claims that do not have sufficient evidence to satisfy my belief. Trying to reason with anyone about God that has no faith is like trying to describe color to someone who is blind.
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Post by benar on Feb 19, 2020 19:17:46 GMT -5
What do you think an open mind is? Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. If one is not interested in examining the evidence against one's position, then one is truly closed-minded. You may accuse me of other things, but closed-minded I am not. Give me evidence of a god and I will have no choice but to believe. We must have FAITH, and if we don't have faith, we cannot understand. Hebrews 11:3 KJV This is circular reasoning. Please educate yourself as to what this entails. It will help you to avoid all sorts of unsubstantiated claims. Faith is the excuse given when there is no evidence. Is there any position one cannot take on faith? The above assertion is no more convincing than claiming you simply cannot see the truth that Vishnu is the one true god because you don't have faith in Vishnu. Do you see the problem with this kind of circular reasoning? I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If you have a few minutes, watch the video I presented you with. Open mindedness is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. The evidence well and truly warrants it. But either way, you misunderstand the burden of proof. The onus is on the one making the claim. You claim there is a very specific god acting in our lives. It is up to you to prove this, not non-believers to dis-prove this. Remember, you cannot simply fall back on 'faith', as we can show that anything can be believed on faith, whether it's true or not; so faith is not a reliable means of determining what is true. For that, we need evidence.
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 19:33:48 GMT -5
We must have FAITH, and if we don't have faith, we cannot understand. Hebrews 11:3 KJV This is circular reasoning. Please educate yourself as to what this entails. It will help you to avoid all sorts of unsubstantiated claims. Faith is the excuse given when there is no evidence. Is there any position one cannot take on faith? The above assertion is no more convincing than claiming you simply cannot see the truth that Vishnu is the one true god because you don't have faith in Vishnu. Do you see the problem with this kind of circular reasoning? I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If you have a few minutes, watch the video I presented you with. Open mindedness is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. The evidence well and truly warrants it. But either way, you misunderstand the burden of proof. The onus is on the one making the claim. You claim there is a very specific god acting in our lives. It is up to you to prove this, not non-believers to dis-prove this. Remember, you cannot simply fall back on 'faith', as we can show that anything can be believed on faith, whether it's true or not; so faith is not a reliable means of determining what is true. For that, we need evidence. I am NOT looking for EVIDENCE for ANYTHING. You are. I DON'T CARE if that means I have a closed mind or an open mind or a whatever mind. I have FAITH. You do NOT. That means no matter how many videos I watch of your so-called evidence, it will do absolutely zero for my faith in God and faith doesn't REQUIRE evidence. Faith comes from God I can't give it to you. Try praying to God that He will give you evidence. He WILL. But then, you would have to have an open mind towards HIM, which is probably the whole problem in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 19:52:45 GMT -5
You have a closed mind to God. You have a closed mind to things that are important to other people on these boards. Not just a closed mind, but an angry tone. Yes I have a closed mind, thank goodness, to some things, but is it possible for you to see YOURSELF in what bothers you about others? It seems not. That takes a lot of honesty and that kind of honesty doesn't make us LOOK good. What do you think an open mind is? Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. If one is not interested in examining the evidence against one's position, then one is truly closed-minded. You may accuse me of other things, but closed-minded I am not. Give me evidence of a god and I will have no choice but to believe. thats not really the definition of open mindedness...
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Post by iam on Feb 19, 2020 20:13:07 GMT -5
What do you think an open mind is? Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. If one is not interested in examining the evidence against one's position, then one is truly closed-minded. You may accuse me of other things, but closed-minded I am not. Give me evidence of a god and I will have no choice but to believe. thats not really the definition of open mindedness... Even if it was it really doesn't mean anything.imo.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 19, 2020 20:23:15 GMT -5
I'm quite confused about why anyone would think that "faith" is a source of understanding.
My observation of people of faith is that their understanding is at least as varied and fragmented and haphazard in their apparent understanding of anything as are people who are considered faithless.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 21:13:40 GMT -5
Always have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 20, 2020 1:12:18 GMT -5
There are many things I WANT to have a closed mind to. You have a closed mind to God. You have a closed mind to things that are important to other people on these boards. Not just a closed mind, but an angry tone. Yes I have a closed mind, thank goodness, to some things, but is it possible for you to see YOURSELF in what bothers you about others? It seems not. That takes a lot of honesty and that kind of honesty doesn't make us LOOK good. If I see myself in others on here, (and many times I do) -it is because I once believed in the same kind of religious doctrine as they still do.
Is that "honest" enough for you?
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 20, 2020 1:32:12 GMT -5
There are many things I WANT to have a closed mind to. You have a closed mind to God. You have a closed mind to things that are important to other people on these boards. Not just a closed mind, but an angry tone.' Yes I have a closed mind, thank goodness, to some things, but is it possible for you to see YOURSELF in what bothers you about others? It seems not. That takes a lot of honesty and that kind of honesty doesn't make us LOOK good. Iam, did you even watch the video on what it means to have a closed mind? It tells us how a closed mind works, -that it refuses to look at new evidence and be willing to change one's mind it the evidence is valid.
You accuse us of having a "closed mind to God." Not true for me and many others here.
I professed for at least 40 years of my life.
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Post by benar on Feb 20, 2020 6:04:09 GMT -5
What do you think an open mind is? Having an open mind is not simply allowing yourself to believe any claim that comes your way, it is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. If one is not interested in examining the evidence against one's position, then one is truly closed-minded. You may accuse me of other things, but closed-minded I am not. Give me evidence of a god and I will have no choice but to believe. thats not really the definition of open mindedness... What is the definition, Wally?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 6:07:54 GMT -5
thats not really the definition of open mindedness... What is the definition, Wally? Open-minded definition, having or showing a mind receptive to new ideas or arguments....it does not say anything about not being fooled or not allowing yourself to believe any claim coming your way...
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Post by benar on Feb 20, 2020 6:13:29 GMT -5
This is circular reasoning. Please educate yourself as to what this entails. It will help you to avoid all sorts of unsubstantiated claims. Faith is the excuse given when there is no evidence. Is there any position one cannot take on faith? The above assertion is no more convincing than claiming you simply cannot see the truth that Vishnu is the one true god because you don't have faith in Vishnu. Do you see the problem with this kind of circular reasoning? I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If you have a few minutes, watch the video I presented you with. Open mindedness is being willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it. The evidence well and truly warrants it. But either way, you misunderstand the burden of proof. The onus is on the one making the claim. You claim there is a very specific god acting in our lives. It is up to you to prove this, not non-believers to dis-prove this. Remember, you cannot simply fall back on 'faith', as we can show that anything can be believed on faith, whether it's true or not; so faith is not a reliable means of determining what is true. For that, we need evidence. I am NOT looking for EVIDENCE for ANYTHING. You are. I DON'T CARE if that means I have a closed mind or an open mind or a whatever mind. I have FAITH. You do NOT. That means no matter how many videos I watch of your so-called evidence, it will do absolutely zero for my faith in God and faith doesn't REQUIRE evidence. Faith comes from God I can't give it to you. Try praying to God that He will give you evidence. He WILL. But then, you would have to have an open mind towards HIM, which is probably the whole problem in the first place. What was that about an angry tone? You seem to have missed the point that faith is not a reliable method to determine truth. Let's take Muslims for example. You and I both know they're wrong, but there are something like 1.2 billion of them, and a large portion I imagine use faith, just the way you do, to determine their religion is correct. If they proudly assert that they do not require evidence, only faith, they will continue to believe that which is untrue. If you are using the same method to determine your religion is right, perhaps you are in the same boat as the Muslims. That's why we require evidence, not faith, to determine what is actually true. Our own feelings and personal bias has no bearing on what is objectively true. The video contained no actual evidence of anything. It certainly was not an attempt at putting forward evidence to disprove your god. It is actually telling us how an open vs closed mind works. Your last sentence tells me you did not read my previous reply properly. If you'd watched the video, you would understand why.
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