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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 12:49:52 GMT -5
I am going to send a e mail to the overseer of our state asking that guidelines be put in place to protect children from CSA and to also have parents involved in setting it up.I am asking any others that feel strongly about this also to write a e mail or send a letter to your overseer in this regard.I know some will say that I should read so many others efforts of trying the same to no avail. The more pressure we put on them the more they will have to acknowledge us and change,that is how I feel.
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Post by rational on Jan 26, 2016 23:38:43 GMT -5
I am going to send a e mail to the overseer of our state asking that guidelines be put in place to protect children from CSA and to also have parents involved in setting it up.I am asking any others that feel strongly about this also to write a e mail or send a letter to your overseer in this regard.I know some will say that I should read so many others efforts of trying the same to no avail. The more pressure we put on them the more they will have to acknowledge us and change,that is how I feel. Shouldn't this be an educational program directed at the parents? If you are serious in your quest to protect children, and I sense you are, why not target the people who are most likely to be responsible for child abuse? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 8:08:13 GMT -5
I am going to send a e mail to the overseer of our state asking that guidelines be put in place to protect children from CSA and to also have parents involved in setting it up.I am asking any others that feel strongly about this also to write a e mail or send a letter to your overseer in this regard.I know some will say that I should read so many others efforts of trying the same to no avail. The more pressure we put on them the more they will have to acknowledge us and change,that is how I feel. Shouldn't this be an educational program directed at the parents? If you are serious in your quest to protect children, and I sense you are, why not target the people who are most likely to be responsible for child abuse? No not just at parents,absolutely workers to. Children are exposed to male workers in a variety of settings and has been involved in CSA.When male workers come to sleep over at our house I sleep in my children's bedroom. No I am not paranoid but precaution is better then cure. But what if they are teenagers how do I explain to them that I want to sleep with them when male workers are around ? And I love those male workers that are sincere and don't have Devilish motives when they show interest in children,but unfortunately the wicked one's don't have a notice on there heads. |
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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2016 10:52:51 GMT -5
No not just at parents,absolutely workers to. Children are exposed to male workers in a variety of settings and has been involved in CSA.When male workers come to sleep over at our house I sleep in my children's bedroom. Understandable. I was suggesting that abuse at the hands of the workers is a less frequent than abuse at the hands of family. Put your efforts where it will do the most good.I believe that children need to be educated from a very early age (perhaps starting at 2 or 3) regarding the issues of sexual abuse. If your children are teens and they have not been taught what is and what is not acceptable and do not know that yelling is appropriate and that they have the right to say "No!" to the unwanted advances of any adult then they are in danger. The danger will not always be in their room(s). It sounds you need to teach your children that they can say "No!" as loudly as they need to when they are uncomfortable with the advances of anyone. This is what I meant by teaching the parents. If children are taught what is and what is not acceptable behavior and they are given permission to reject any behavior with which they are not comfortable you have reduced the need to try to control the behavior of the workers. People who molest children are very good at what they do and very good at reducing fears in the guardian(s) of the child. I have worked with them and they cannot be picked out of a crowd. Certainly addressing the issue with the workers is needed but trying to control the behavior of others in this issue does not have a high success rate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 14:56:29 GMT -5
No not just at parents,absolutely workers to. Children are exposed to male workers in a variety of settings and has been involved in CSA.When male workers come to sleep over at our house I sleep in my children's bedroom. Understandable. I was suggesting that abuse at the hands of the workers is a less frequent than abuse at the hands of family. Put your efforts where it will do the most good. The bottom line is that there should be guidelines protecting children from whoever and that is done in most churches that I have come across so why not in our fellowship were things have been handled wrongly in the past concerning CSA ? I believe that children need to be educated from a very early age (perhaps starting at 2 or 3) regarding the issues of sexual abuse. If your children are teens and they have not been taught what is and what is not acceptable and do not know that yelling is appropriate and that they have the right to say "No!" to the unwanted advances of any adult then they are in danger. The danger will not always be in their room(s). Yes obviously children need to be taught ,I don't know how many causes that involves CSA the children weren't taught about what is appropriate and what is not.And these children would have been manipulated by these dirt bags especially if that involved threatening the lives of there families or of the child itself. It sounds you need to teach your children that they can say "No!" as loudly as they need to when they are uncomfortable with the advances of anyone. This is what I meant by teaching the parents. If children are taught what is and what is not acceptable behavior and they are given permission to reject any behavior with which they are not comfortable you have reduced the need to try to control the behavior of the workers. People who molest children are very good at what they do and very good at reducing fears in the guardian(s) of the child. I have worked with them and they cannot be picked out of a crowd. Certainly addressing the issue with the workers is needed but trying to control the behavior of others in this issue does not have a high success rate. The bottom line is to get these perverts out of the work and not make excuses for them and keep them in the work were they can harm children again. And also to teach other workers not to keep quiet when they see warning signs. There is great "safe ministry courses" that the workers can learn from. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 15:51:03 GMT -5
Rational,the statistics that I got say's 30% of CSA are committed by family members and 60% by someone the child trusts witch would include the workers obviously. So there is then a higher chance of it just being someone the child trust.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2016 18:14:17 GMT -5
Rational,the statistics that I got say's 30% of CSA are committed by family members and 60% by someone the child trusts witch would include the workers obviously. So there is then a higher chance of it just being someone the child trust. Don't bother telling the workers anything. Call the police. They will teach the workers everything they need to know, and they'll take the police more seriously than they will take you. Be an example for victims. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2016 18:16:26 GMT -5
Rational,the statistics that I got say's 30% of CSA are committed by family members and 60% by someone the child trusts witch would include the workers obviously. So there is then a higher chance of it just being someone the child trust. Don't bother telling the workers anything. Call the police. They will teach the workers everything they need to know, and they'll take the police more seriously than they will take you. Be an example for victims. Sorry, I'm not presently a 2x2 -- but that's what I did when I WAS a 2x2.  |
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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2016 19:37:40 GMT -5
The bottom line is to get these perverts out of the work and not make excuses for them and keep them in the work were they can harm children again. And also to teach other workers not to keep quiet when they see warning signs. There is great "safe ministry courses" that the workers can learn from. I thought the bottom line was protect children from abuse. Making children aware of the possibility of abuse and educating them about potential abuse and how to deal with it will result safer environment for the children regardless of the possibility of 'missing' a potential abuser. There are very few cases of a child molester being identified prior to the abuse of that first child. I am suggesting that instead of attempting to identifying all potential abusers as a solution, teach the potential victim how to react to the initial attempts of abuse. |
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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2016 19:54:01 GMT -5
Rational,the statistics that I got say's 30% of CSA are committed by family members and 60% by someone the child trusts witch would include the workers obviously. So there is then a higher chance of it just being someone the child trust. According to the National Association of Adult Survivors of Child Abuse 90 percent of child sexual abuse victims know the perpetrator in some way. Family members account for 68 percent of that 90%. 68% by family members and 22% by people known to the victim. Removing the workers as a possible abusers only addresses a portion of the 22%. I was suggesting addressing problem to have the largest impact on protecting children. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2016 19:57:31 GMT -5
The bottom line is to get these perverts out of the work and not make excuses for them and keep them in the work were they can harm children again. And also to teach other workers not to keep quiet when they see warning signs. There is great "safe ministry courses" that the workers can learn from. I thought the bottom line was protect children from abuse. Making children aware of the possibility of abuse and educating them about potential abuse and how to deal with it will result safer environment for the children regardless of the possibility of 'missing' a potential abuser. There are very few cases of a child molester being identified prior to the abuse of that first child. I am suggesting that instead of attempting to identifying all potential abusers as a solution, teach the potential victim how to react to the initial attempts of abuse. Some people think that sex education is all about "getting to it". What they don't understand is that if they keep their kids heads stuck in the sand they'll never know what's happening at their other end -- say nothing about knowing how to prevent anything. |
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Post by withlove on Jan 27, 2016 23:46:57 GMT -5
Why can't people talk to their kids and to the workers? Not sure why anyone would be limited to one or the other unless they are childless.
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Post by rational on Jan 28, 2016 2:14:23 GMT -5
Why can't people talk to their kids and to the workers? Not sure why anyone would be limited to one or the other unless they are childless. They can. They should. I was addressing the original post that was suggesting sending email to the workers with no mention of parent/child education. |
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Post by kittens on Jan 28, 2016 2:59:27 GMT -5
Rational,the statistics that I got say's 30% of CSA are committed by family members and 60% by someone the child trusts witch would include the workers obviously. So there is then a higher chance of it just being someone the child trust. According to the National Association of Adult Survivors of Child Abuse 90 percent of child sexual abuse victims know the perpetrator in some way. Family members account for 68 percent of that 90%. 68% by family members and 22% by people known to the victim. Removing the workers as a possible abusers only addresses a portion of the 22%. I was suggesting addressing problem to have the largest impact on protecting children. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 8:00:37 GMT -5
I suggest a combination approach of what you suggest and I suggest (and witch many others suggest also) would help in preventing CSA and when it occurs deal with it according to the law and Bible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 8:07:57 GMT -5
Right if I know about it that should be the approach but what about those that I don't know about how do I try and protect them ? As far as I can see guidelines will help in those cases. Nobody will have a excuse that they didn't know.
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Post by rational on Jan 28, 2016 9:29:26 GMT -5
The way workers interact with the friends children ( eg being in the house with them all the time, sitting them on their lap to read stories etc) and the way children are taught to interact with the workers (eg call them Uncle etc) I would say the workers could be classed very much as family members. Adults holding children in their laps and reading to them is good for the children. I never understood the practice of calling unrelated people 'Uncle' nor adding that title even for related people. I don't call my brother "Brother Uriah" or my cousin "Cousin Zebediha". I have a name and I encourage people use it. For some reason people are taken aback when my 2-year old grand child addresses me by name. I don't get it.And this is why educating the parents and children should be the first place to start. The problem with trying to make children safe is that you do not know who is not safe until some action has been taken. Then, for that child, it is too late. Sure you might have implemented a procedure that will prevent that one criminal from continuing to abuse other victims but that does not address that first victim.I agree. If you did suspect something was wrong you could stop it. People who abuse are very skillful in making everyone feel very much at ease.The problem is not only that they have more access but that they are placed on a pedestal by many of the parents and, at least historically, the adult guardians found it difficult to believe that the same people who they were trusting to get them to eternal life were also molesting their children. Perhaps the most important thing is that the lines of communication need to be kept open between children and parents/guardians. Too many times the stories of abuse include the idea that the childen felt they could not report the incident to their parents or, if they did, the parents did not believe them. The children need to be taught that no one is above suspicion and the adults need to realize this as well. Children need to be taught, in very clear terms, what is and what is not acceptable behavior of anyone. This is not the time to use ambiguous euphemisms when you are explaining to children. Calling a penis a penis makes the subject very clear to everyone. They also need to know that they can report anything to their parents/guardians without fear of censure.I grew up in a home where there were a lot of workers coming and going. I do not remember ever being left alone in the care of the workers.What??? I have heard that this was a common practice and I should be excited they are gracing us with their presence! I guess I need to have a discussion regarding this so-claimed 'time honored' custom of moving in with relatives! |
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Post by rational on Jan 28, 2016 10:32:54 GMT -5
I suggest a combination approach of what you suggest and I suggest (and witch many others suggest also) would help in preventing CSA and when it occurs deal with it according to the law and Bible. I would suggest that this is a criminal issue and it should be dealt with as a criminal issue. The bible is mute on child abuse. Anything regarding the spiritual side of criminal acts should be addressed after the authorities have been notified and have advised those involved regarding contact/communication with the accused as well as with the victim and victim's family. The RCC, F&W, and a numerous other churches have tried the spiritual/biblical approach and the results were less than satisfactory. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 13:44:37 GMT -5
I suggest a combination approach of what you suggest and I suggest (and witch many others suggest also) would help in preventing CSA and when it occurs deal with it according to the law and Bible. I would suggest that this is a criminal issue and it should be dealt with as a criminal issue. The bible is mute on child abuse. Anything regarding the spiritual side of criminal acts should be addressed after the authorities have been notified and have advised those involved regarding contact/communication with the accused as well as with the victim and victim's family. The RCC, F&W, and a numerous other churches have tried the spiritual/biblical approach and the results were less than satisfactory. Yes of course if CSA is suspected we should give it over in the hands of the law. I am not suggesting in any way that we try and handle it ourselves. And yes the Bible speaks very clearly against sexual immorality which (some one kindly send me a message to let me know that I am misspelling some words,keep in mind English is my second language) would include CSA. |
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Post by rational on Jan 28, 2016 14:22:12 GMT -5
I would suggest that this is a criminal issue and it should be dealt with as a criminal issue. The bible is mute on child abuse. Anything regarding the spiritual side of criminal acts should be addressed after the authorities have been notified and have advised those involved regarding contact/communication with the accused as well as with the victim and victim's family. The RCC, F&W, and a numerous other churches have tried the spiritual/biblical approach and the results were less than satisfactory. Yes of course if CSA is suspected we should give it over in the hands of the law. I am not suggesting in any way that we try and handle it ourselves. And yes the Bible speaks very clearly against sexual immorality which (some one kindly send me a message to let me know that I am misspelling some words,keep in mind English is my second language) would include CSA. Can you name some of the biblical references that speak against ciold abuse of any kind? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 14:24:38 GMT -5
Yes of course if CSA is suspected we should give it over in the hands of the law. I am not suggesting in any way that we try and handle it ourselves. And yes the Bible speaks very clearly against sexual immorality which (some one kindly send me a message to let me know that I am misspelling some words,keep in mind English is my second language) would include CSA. Can you name some of the biblical references that speak against ciold abuse of any kind? I said it speaks against sexual immorality which would include CSA. |
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Post by rational on Jan 28, 2016 18:13:29 GMT -5
Can you name some of the biblical references that speak against child abuse of any kind? I said it speaks against sexual immorality which would include CSA. I am not a biblical scholar but I am having trouble finding any thing in the bible that addresses CSA. You say 'sexual immorality' covers it but I don't see how. Leviticus 18:6-23 addresses sexual immorality as problems regarding consanguinity and affinity. Later on there are prohibitions against men laying with other men as they lay with women and some language regarding men and women and the fact that copulating with beasts would defile the participants. Including animals did not seem to be as big a problem as other men. Given that the bible says adultery is the kiss of death it also seems to be OK if the man engaged in sexual relations with a female slave, a prostitute, or the handmaid of his wife (as long as his wife said "OK"). But, be that as it may, most of the sexual immorality in the bible seems to be directed at the male having sex with someone who is not his wife. For the record, I think it is immoral for anyone to abuse a child. I think it is also criminal. I believe you do as well. It is immoral whether you can find verses in the bible that can be interpenetrated to speak out against it but the best that Jesus could do was to state men who lusted after a woman was committing adultery in his heart, whatever that means. But then, as a guide, Jesus had a text that was OK with with a man selling his daughter, people like Lot were held up as examples of good men, and David was praised after he committed adultery and had the husband murdered. I am not sure that the bible and the lessons contained therein are much help in CSA cases. The important thing is that steps, any steps, are taken to protect children, as well as adults, from abuse. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 28, 2016 18:32:23 GMT -5
I suggest a combination approach of what you suggest and I suggest (and witch many others suggest also) would help in preventing CSA and when it occurs deal with it according to the law and Bible. Following the Bible could range anywhere from stoning the perpetrator to death, to excusing him. Unfortunately. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 28, 2016 18:34:14 GMT -5
Can you name some of the biblical references that speak against ciold abuse of any kind? I said it speaks against sexual immorality which would include CSA. Adult sexuality, not child molestation. |
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Post by ellie on Jan 29, 2016 7:47:18 GMT -5
I am going to send a e mail to the overseer of our state asking that guidelines be put in place to protect children from CSA and to also have parents involved in setting it up.I am asking any others that feel strongly about this also to write a e mail or send a letter to your overseer in this regard.I know some will say that I should read so many others efforts of trying the same to no avail. The more pressure we put on them the more they will have to acknowledge us and change,that is how I feel. I love your enthusiasm  but I don’t think that everyone in the fellowship will be as enthusiastic about this as you. Sending a letter like this might change your experience in meetings. The time might come when you would not want to be a part of the fellowship any more. So apologies for my tactlessness, but in case, have you planned the path you and your family might take if you were to leave the fellowship? All the best with the letter |
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Post by kittens on Jan 29, 2016 11:26:32 GMT -5
I am going to send a e mail to the overseer of our state asking that guidelines be put in place to protect children from CSA and to also have parents involved in setting it up.I am asking any others that feel strongly about this also to write a e mail or send a letter to your overseer in this regard.I know some will say that I should read so many others efforts of trying the same to no avail. The more pressure we put on them the more they will have to acknowledge us and change,that is how I feel. I love your enthusiasm but I don’t think that everyone in the fellowship will be as enthusiastic about this as you. Sending a letter like this might change your experience in meetings. The time might come when you would not want to be a part of the fellowship any more. So apologies for my tactlessness, but in case, have you planned the path you and your family might take if you were to leave the fellowship? All the best with the letter |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 11:45:27 GMT -5
Umfolozi I love your enthusiasm but I don’t think that everyone in the fellowship will be as enthusiastic about this as you. Sending a letter like this might change your experience in meetings. The time might come when you would not want to be a part of the fellowship any more. So apologies for my tactlessness, but in case, have you planned the path you and your family might take if you were to leave the fellowship? All the best with the letter I said much the same on "The 'Do Nothing' approach of some 2x2 members". I don't want to discourage her in any way but forewarned is forearmed. I hope umfolozi has a very strong personality and can cope with whatever gets thrown at her. I also hope she gets strong support from the friends around her. I appreciate your in put but I have trouble in understanding why a overseer would be upset about a reasonable request and also a Biblical one,because protecting those that can't stand up for themselves would be Biblical.I have not met or experienced many unreasonable workers so therefore don't have a fear in approaching them. |
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Post by rs on Jan 29, 2016 15:50:58 GMT -5
Umfolozi, like ellie I love what you want to do - please let us know how you get on
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but I don’t think that everyone in the fellowship will be as enthusiastic about this as you. Sending a letter like this might change your experience in meetings. The time might come when you would not want to be a part of the fellowship any more. So apologies for my tactlessness, but in case, have you planned the path you and your family might take if you were to leave the fellowship? All the best with the letter