How, When, and Where did the 2x2 Church Start?

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Since this is the beginning of a brand new year, I thought a thread dealing with the stories related to the Truth Fellowship  early beginnings was in order.   Any comments?

www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/howstart.php   

Stories About The Beginning ~ How When Where did the 2x2 Church start?   (Revised Oct. 4, 2015)

[faune]

The INTRODUCTION to this chapter on the beginnings of the 2x2's also provides food for thought.  I'm sure you can attest to some of these stories yourself heard at conventions and special meetings in the past.    


"You might also have heard various stories, explanations, analogies or even denials of the stories of others.


Workers often emphasize how their method and doctrine are the same the world over. So it is surprising when they do not all give the same answers to these questions--far from it. The Questioner is given a wide variety of answers--even answers that conflict with other workers' statements. To the question WHO STARTED THIS WAY? you may be told it was God, Jesus, Wm Irvine, a group of men; it doesnt matter; or I don’t know.


As to WHEN WAS IT STARTED? Or what was the startup date? Some answers have been: from before world began; when Jesus sent out the disciples 2 and 2; in the New Testament; around 1900; it was planned by God before the foundation of the world; it doesnt matter; or I don’t know.


For a location for WHERE DID IT START? you may be told in Heaven, in Ireland, in Scotland, in Galilee, Armenia, Switzerland, Italy, in the heart of God; it doesn't matter; or I don’t know.


Perhaps the question that generates the most variety of answers is WHO WAS WILLIAM IRVINE? You maybe told that he was just a worker; a man used of God; a prophet; a man highly favored of God; a man God “raised up,” or I never heard of him.


In attempting to discover WHAT BECAME OF WILLIAM IRVINE? you may hear that he lost his anointing, became mentally unbalanced; had the misfortune to lose his mind; was a womanizer; became too proud and lifted up in himself; or that he had to be eliminated, removed, ousted, dispelled, excommunicated, etc.


As to HOW WAS IT STARTED? some say it was by a man’s revelation; others say it was restarted or restored by a man or some men; while others maintain that Jesus started it in the New Testament; or I don't know.


Regarding WHO WM. IRVINE HEARD IT FROM? the answers given may be: from Willie Gill’s family; through Irvine's sister; from the underground remnant; by revelation from God; it doesn't matter; or I don't know.


The following quotes are by workers and friends from all over the world. One would expect their statements to be similar and certainly not to oppose each other. Notice how the answers vary considerably...while coming from followers claiming their church is "the same the world over." These two hymns are sometimes quoted to suport the idea that the 2x2church is the same worldwide: 335 - No East or West; and No. 11 - Jesus is the same."    (Cont'd...)

[faune]

The section of this chapter which deals with EVASIVE EXPLANATIONS given by the workers I found rather insightful. Have you ever heard of any of these explanations given by the workers at 2x2 Conventions or Special Meetings in the past?

EVASIVE EXPLANATIONS: 


Analogies:

TTT Editor's NOTE: A comparison of two items is called an "analogy." The Bible is full of analogies--a parable is an analogy. Comparisons are extremely useful tools that help illustrate points about a previously unknown idea or concept. The two items being compared must be in the same class; otherwise, the value of an analogy is for illustration purposes only. An analogy cannot disprove historical facts. Click Here to learn more about Analogies

Dan Hilton: "We shall consider three illustrations. First, Gen. 1:12...wheat seed. Wheat has always been wheat. If you. were a wheat farmer, and I was a wheat seed merchant and you came to me to obtain a truckload of wheat seed, it would not be necessary for me to put into your hand a historical brochure with a written record of when and where that wheat has been grown in past years in several states and countries of Europe and the near East and back to the garden of Eden, for that wheat seed to grow wheat. Every wheat seed a is a living historical brochure of wheat clear back to Gen. 1:12.

"And so the spiritual lesson is: Jesus said in Luke 0:11, "The seed is the word of God." The word of God has always been the same seed. Whether anyone believes and receives the seed of the word of God makes no difference in this respect, for God's truth is God's truth if no body believes and receives it or a few do or many do. As with wheat seed, there could have been times in the centuries of time there may have been no wheat seed planted. but it was still wheat seed. And if farmers took wheat out of the granary and planted it again there would be wheat growing and harvested again in the world.

"So it may have been there were times in centuries past if there was no one in the earth believing and receiving the seed of the word of God for a time and then God was able to raise up true ministers like Jesus established to sow the seed of the word of God, then there would be the godly harvest in the world again. It is just that simple certain." Dan Hilton, West Coast USA Worker, deceased

* * * * *


"Look at it like this. I have no idea who my great-great-grandfather was, but I know that he had to exist, because here I am today. We know how life begets life and it is the same spiritually. I do not believe in some form of apostolic succession--that would be like the Catholic church. People might build their faith on that, but I would like to believe that the friends and ministry did come down through history that way. " [Eldon Kendrew, Canadian Worker, in personal visit w/John & Shawna Mitchell 6/4/95]

"It's like a seed. No, better yet, it's like your great-grandmother's recipe. You are looking through your great-grandmother's recipe box and you find a recipe for what you think is a cake that she used to always make that was just wonderful and you wonder, "Is this the one?" So you make it and YES! It tastes just exactly the same. It doesn't matter if the recipe has been lost in the box for years and years; you know that it is the recipe for the same cake because it tastes the same." [Eldon Kendrew, Canadian Worker in personal visit w/John & Shawna Mitchell 6/4/95]

"The scripture teaches that God's way began in eternity. The Lord possessed me, speaking of Jesus, in the beginning of His way before His works were. That's what's began, Dale. One of the simplest answers that I can give is that it began when 2 and 2 became 4...That's right. It began with God and it has always been, 2 and 2 have always been 4. And I could go back in my experience, maybe for when I first knew that 2 and 2 was 4, but that's not when 2 and 2 became 4. And I could go back in my mother's experience when it likely first became aware to her that 2 and 2 was 4, but that wasn't when it became 4. So we can go back and we don't have to trace it generation to generation back to the beginning. The fact that we find 2 and 2, 4 today helps me to appreciate that it was in the beginning." [Willis Propp, Alberta, Canada Overseer, April, 1992, visit with Dale & Joyce Wesenberg.]

"It's true that we can trace the fellowship in this land back to the old country, we can go back that far, but I can't go farther back in my memory or the memory of others beyond the twentieth century. I can't go back, but I'm not worried about that at all. We often use this illustration: when we see wheat today that compares with the wheat that is found in the tombs of the Egyptian pharaohs, and it's basically the same though it varies slightly but basically it's wheat the same as it was then. Because it's wheat we don't have to worry about all the generations that brought it to our generation. It's wheat that compares with the original. And this truth produces what this bible tells us. And you see that everywhere. [Willis Propp, Alberta, Canadian Overseer, April 12, 1992 spoken to Dale and Joyce Wesenberg in Alberta, Canada]


Diversions:

"I am not answering these questions, because I don't believe to do so would profit you. 80 years ago I decided to go forth and preach as Jesus sent the Apostles...I find it more profitable to exercise my mind to seek to abide in Jesus, as said in John 15, rather than tracing the origin of the little streams that made up the river which we have enjoyed travelling on." Letter by George Walker, dated November 27, 1979, deceased Eastern USA Overseer who pioneered the group in America.

"It was before my time, (Ben) Klepzig says, "No one here claims to have started it." Owner of Georgetown, Texas, convention grounds, The Sunday Sun, Georgetown, Texas July 14, 1991.

"Personally, I have never been taken up with endless genealogies or other things that Paul warned against in I Tim. 1:3-4. My satisfaction is in the fact that the Lord has given to me all that he has promised." Howard Mooney, Oregon Overseer

"I always say don't criticize unless you have something better to offer. I haven't heard that they have anything better to offer." Mary Hasper, deceased Worker, Bellingham Herald.

"I don't regard it as hidden information. I've known about it for years--what makes you think it has been hidden?" Jim Price, 1990, Texas & SD Worker

"Some friends have asked me about our history. There is no profit in that. That's not what our faith and foundation should be in. The rock of our foundation, the beginning of our faith, is in the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus Christ." Overseer from Michigan, at Hunter North Dakota Conv. about 1998.


It's Not Important (Minimizing Significance):

"It all happened over 100 years ago, how could it matter now?"
"The history of this fellowship isn't doctrine."
"What difference does it make?"
"It isn't relevant today."
"Now why are you worrying about that? You don't need to concern yourself about that at all."
"Well, everything has to begin sometime...."

"So what if the truth came from Greece, Italy or Macedonia to England. What does it matter, the fact is it came, and we are ever so grateful. Why would I waste precious time pondering where they came from and how?"

"There was no reason to tell you! Why would we tell you something like that. It is a matter of faith." Eldon Kendrew to Mitchells 6/4/95

"You sound rather disturbed about something to do with a man called William Irvine. I do believe he served God in sincerity and truth at one time. What happened I've never asked because our life doesn't really revolve round any person but around Jesus...I'm sure your faith isn't built on the rights or wrongs of men but the simple right or truth in Jesus...Don't worry needlessly about things really that don't come into this matter of our salvation." Helen Phimister (Scotland Worker), Letter dated June 15, 1995

"It doesn't really matter. All that matters is that we are building on the same foundation as Christ, and we know we are." Lorraine Lerwick, Worker

"Irvine's founding role is of little consequence, for we alone follow the true pattern of the original apostles, and the early church." Gordon McNabb (The Secret Sect)


Denials & Omissions:

"This is NOT made by a man! So get that out of your head!" Frank Porter, 1995

"Oh no, this way didn't start 95 years ago. It started in the very heart of God." David Leonhardt, 1996

"Many men have started many different religions, but this faith that we believe in--we don't know who started it. But keep yourselves sanctified so that if anyone should question you concerning this faith, that you can give them the right answers." Gilbert Richter, Worker Overser,1990 Seneca, IL conv.
"I advise you to drop your investigation." Edward Blair to Jim Vail

Q: "How did the first worker get saved? "
A: "That's a good question."
Woman asked one of the older brother workers if he had heard of Wm Irvine.
The worker: "Well, I don't think I can talk about him..."
The woman: "Well, have you heard of him or haven't you?"
The worker: "I can't hear you very well, my hearing is getting so bad."

"Some have asked when this way first got started. I don't know the answer to that. All I know is that in MY family it started in 1904, when Irvine Weir came to California." Harry Brownlee, Hunter, ND conv., 1995. TTT Editor's Note: Harry Brownlee's parents, Clyde & Grace, were the first to profess in the Western USA. His father even went to preach temporarily with Irvine Weir who was in CA without a companion.)

"Q:. Would you kindly give me the origin and history of your organization?
Ans:. The religious world has passed through many stages of apostasy and reformation, since Christ and His apostles established Christianity upon the earth, but we have no reason to think, nor right to say that God has not at all times been able to preserve a true seed in the world, a seed or people who have always looked beyond form or schism and creed back to the Way and Truth of Christ. Back to Christianity in its purity and simplicity, back to the living Christianity which was very much more than a creed, back to the Christ-like humble sacrificing ministry as exemplified in the New Testament apostles, back to a Christianity which refused all conformity to the world.

But (perhaps as a sign that the world is nearing the return of the Lord to the earth) there has in recent years been a very real and distinct turning of the minds and hearts of men and women towards its simplicity and purity of early Christianity. This is undoubtedly attributable to what we may call the modernization of Christianity, the lack of clear unequivocal preaching of the Gospel of Christ, the tendency of holding only a head belief in Christ, instead of a faith which leads to true discipleship, questionable ways of raising money for religious work, flirtation with the world in its pleasures, sins and fashions, and other things which the Bible says would prevail in the last days.

The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or number of men but is the result of reaching after Truth, during a number of years, of many men. Many no doubt have been unwilling for the sacrifice, when their minds were turned back to the lowly way of Christ, but others have been willing to sacrifice everything in their desire to get back to the simplicity and sincerity of the early Christianity and to lead others to do likewise.

This is our aim--it is heartily welcomed by some but hated by others. This is as simply as I can put the case although our desire to follow the one Lord and to preach his Gospel binds us into a very real fellowship, we have neither any headquarters on earth nor a Headman . Our preachers are all on the same level (as Christ said they should be) and so we desire to be known only as Christians or followers of Christ." [37 Questions & Answers by Overseer of South Australia & New Zealand, Willie Hughes, April 23, 1931]

THE RESTORATION CONCEPT


It was restored, regenerated, restarted, revived, reborn, resurrected, resurfaced, jump-started, raised up again, all of which mean to bring back after an interval or decline.

Irvine's experiment to "restore" or "revive" or "jumpstart" God's true way to earth wasn't a novel or unique approach. During the early 19th century, many other religious leaders embraced the same ideal and goal to restore the primitive New Testament church and return to the faith and practices of the Apostolic Age. This time period in religious history is even known as "The Restoration Movement" because of the great number of movements to commence in the 19th century which emphasized the common goal of restoring New Testament Christianity. Religious history books recording events in this time period reveal that, far from being unique, Irvine's restoration ideals were actually quite commonplace at that time.

[faune]

I found this section rather intriguing, because some of the older workers actually admitted the 2x2's only go back to 1897 and the British Isles, including George Walker.  
 Sorry, Nathan, but this section on workers' explanations doesn't agree with your succession story down through the ages. 

WHERE did it Start?

It Started in the British Isles & America:

According to the 1942 Statement by George Walker to U.A. Selective Service (FIRST Eastern USA Overseer, deceased): "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America .. became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples...and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel".

It Started in IRELAND:

In 1976, Therald Sylvester personally arranged for Joshua Gamble from Ireland to make the whole round of conventions on the West Coast in America, including Walla Walla, WA, Gilroy, CA and Casa Grande, AZ conventions, and asked Joshua to publicly mention the subject at each convention, with the purpose of trying to dispel the "continuous unbroken chain" myth. Evidently Therald thought that the word of someone from "where it all happened" would have more weight. He mentioned William Irvine's name along with the names of several other early workers. Joshua made it clear that there was no continuous ministry going out in this fashion and no recognizable fellowship of this type before the late 1890s. Several have reported hearing Joshua Gamble mention this from the platform. [Joshua Gamble is the uncle of Thomas Gamble, current Ireland Overseer]

"Since early workers followed a Scottish preacher in Ireland before the turn of the 20th century, they have spent their lives traveling from home to home with little more than their clothes, Lewis said." William Lewis, (Southern USA Overseer) quote from in the Minneapolis Star Tribune 11/2/86.

"The light of the truth has been kept burning over the ages and then ignited into flame in Ireland about 100 years ago."

It was started in Ireland and Scotland: Los Angeles Times 9/13/82: "Richard Wulf, 27, a Two-by-Two worker in Mexico for two years, was asked about this apparent suppression of the sect's origins. 'Near the turn of the century God raised up Godly men in Ireland and Scotland,' Wulf acknowledged. 'We respect them and what they established. But we don't hold to that history and line of succession.' Added Kennedy, a worker spokesman, 'Now we're not following these men, but the New Testament fellowship.'"

"Ireland is the only country where workers weren't imported, but rather exported." Letter of Sydney Holt, California Worker, June 27, 1985 (Click Here to read Sydney Holt's Letters)

"Some have asked about the beginning of this way. In 1897, there were two workers that came to Ireland." Dan Sherick, Worker, Boyden, IA Conv, Sept 8-11, 1995.

"Ninety years ago, a letter came from Ireland. We heard about those with no home, no name, etc. Forty people made their choice. Sixteen went out in the work--that was the beginning...There is not a country not open to the gospel now. It is the most marvelous thing ever to happen." ["Ninety years ago" = 1987 Minus 90 years = 1897]   Funeral Service for Erling Omdal, Oct. 6, 1987, Eagle Bend, Minnesota, spoken by Garrett Hughes (deceased USA Worker Overseer)

"I was in S.A. about 30 years ago and there were only 4 of the S.A. countries that had workers having mtgs then. Every country there is doing real well for the Gospel now and it's surely a way of what is going around the world over now in our day. It surely speaks of what began 90 years ago and has gone the world around." Letter of Garrett Hughes, August 1, 1988

Garrett Hughes also made numerous references from convention platforms in his last years relative to "the beginning of days," first workers, first conventions, etc. One in particular was at Hunter, North Dakota in 1988, 1989 or 1990. And Garrett would know about these things since his Grandparents were some of the very first to profess in Ireland, in the mission where 40 professed and 16 went in the work. His mother's brother, Willie Gill, became Overseer of England and her two sisters, Emma and Jennie Gill, were the very first sister workers to go out preaching in Irvine's new movement. All three of her siblings went in the work in 1900 and are shown on the 1905 Workers List. Garrett's parents Fred & Mary Ann (Gill) Hughes professed through Wm Irvine in North Dakota.

"It has also been very encouraging to be in a number of the homes of the saints. We are constantly reminded that it was from this cradle that many of our early workers came to us, and so many of these older saints remember them well and have been able to give me interesting details of their early days. Most of the older ones are gone now. Like in our field, a new generation is carrying on the work." Howard Mooney from Oregon USA visiting Fermanagh, Ireland Convention in June 24-27, 1970(?)

"Some people are saying that this fellowship began in Ireland 100 years ago. Well, that's true, but what's important is OUR beginning - when WE (personally) first found Jesus." Dellas Linneman at W. Aust conv."

[faune]

Jan 3, 2016 12:10:48 GMT -5 NathanB said:

We read and heard all kinds of different answers from the workers for years, because hardly anyone was there from the beginning themselves. Most the early workers, today workers and the friends are guessing about the beginning when and how it all started. John Long was excommunicated in 1907; William Irvine left the ministry and fellowship after 1918; and Edward Cooney was also excommunicate in 1928... The ONLY ones really knew the answers were the Bill, Jack, and their 3 sisters Carroll's family. They were there from the start and continue faithfully unto the end and died as 2x2s. I wish they had written down their (Jack and May) beginning experiences as a Faith Mission members in 1897 through William Irvine's gospel meeting as a Faith Mission Pilgrim/worker preacher... then how and when all of them became 2x2 workers.

Thanks, goodness of Goodhand early account and John Long's diary we were able to put many of the pieces of the puzzle together of our 2x2 history beginning.

Nathan ~ Yes, John Long was excommunicated in July 1907 and he attested himself to the 2x2 movement beginning with Wm. Irvine and himself (his first companion) as being 10 years ago within his Journal where he relays his uncomfortable experience at convention before his removal.

www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/3longjohn.php#1907   John Long's Journal ~ 1907

THE EXCOMMUNICATION

Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, ten years ago.

Men raised up of God to do a special work such as John, ran often into zeal and extremes in fulfilling their mission; and God uses extraordinary men and effort to deliver souls, and to reap the harvest. He used Martin Luther with an iron will to fight the battle of the reformation; also he used George Fox to fight ritualism; but in doing so he swung the pendulum to the opposite extreme of rejecting the ordinances. I have no doubt that God used William Irvine to witness against clericalism; but in doing so he ran into the opposite, in going beyond truth when he preached that every clergyman is a false prophet and unsaved. Because I tried to correct him, and did not accept all he said as truth, I became unpopular among the workers. He remained that year in the British Isles, and every where he went he preached that the clergy were unsaved men going to Hell. He believed that it would be iniquity to believe a thing and not preach it; or to preach it in one place and not in another; that only made him the more faithful in his error; and the less open to take correction from any well wishing servant of the Lord.

All who were in the Go-Preacher fellowship, and came under its teaching knew that there was much in its external obedience to the word that was superior to all other movements in the world; therefore, it appealed to those who received the truth with pleasure; nevertheless, in the internal and Spiritual aspects of truth, there may have been others superior to them. Being taken up so much with the external and legal side of truth, I believe about that time, they neglected the internal and Spiritual. It’s very remarkable that at that time, or one year sooner, originated another movement in Los Angeles, America, who emphasized the Spiritual side. God does raise up one movement to supply the lack and correct the errors of another.

The Lord says, “In measure when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind,” Isa. 27:8. The definite article [“the”] used in such a narrow way as The truth, The way, The Testimony, Etc. unto the exclusion of all other sects and missions outside their own became at that time very common. They “unChristianized” all Christians outside themselves; and refused fellowship with them, and I could not go that length conscientiously; and indeed the instructions of Christ, given in Matthew Ten to His Apostles appears to be so contrary to that belief and spirit that it must have been blindness on the part of Irvine and Cooney not to have seen it; but he knew well enough they had got into a trap, as was manifest from one address at the convention in which he said it was good to err on the opposite side of the world. Measuring regeneration by the life of Christ and not by the Atonement; by the external conformity and not by an internal experience was one of the causes of the error.

When I went to the south of Ireland before the convention, I was surprised to find most of the Go-Preacher fellowship against me; and it was heart-rending to find oneself rejected, despised, and betrayed by many of my own friends and countrymen; who set the report going that I was disloyal to William Irvine; that report went up like a whirlwind to the convention held at Crocknacrieve, Ballinamallard, near Enniskillen, in the domain of John West. Among my friends at Cloughjordan was one Goodhand Pattison, a man who meant well; he tried to expostulate with me, to be careful, as it would not be for the better if William Irvine and I separated, we being the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement.

JULY, 1907: At that time, there would be upwards of 500 Go-Preacher Evangelists, including Brothers and Sisters, out fully in the work. They had already laboured in the British Isles, the United States, Nova Scotia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. Converts and workers, including coloured people, were present at that convention. From time to time, Roman Catholics were converted and odd ones went out on the work. Truth was maintained and prayer, praise and preaching were ministered as on former occasion with heavy debates.

William Irvine asked me to speak at one of the meetings, with the planned object of denouncing me before the audience because I believed that there were clergymen born again. The denunciations were so strong it was unbearable for a man of principle and conscience to take it, without demanding from him his authority and justice in doing so. When I did, he said that they would have a meeting for me to prove to them that John Wesley was a saved man; and that there are saved clergymen. I was cut to the heart. I sought comforters but found none. I had to wander out and in alone; nevertheless, when earthly comforters failed the Comfort of the Holy Spirit was very real in my soul; and I felt that the Lord Jesus, whow as my Advocate with the Father was pleading for me at the right hand of God.

Had I known that my time was drawing near leaving the fellowship and separation was so near, I would have made a stronger defensive address and protest against error; but knowing how God used William Irvine in the past; and that I had got much blessing through his testimony in my own life and work, it made me more lenial and forbearing towards him than I otherwise would; however, it may be that God preserved me to that hour to witness against an extreme scarcely equaled in the annals of the history of the Christian Church.; and not be so lenient with them; but that arose from past experience and fellowship.

My defensive address was short, but to the point. I warned against strange fire, and believing an untruth. I showed how, through faith in the Lord Jesus, John Wesley received the witness of the Spirit in his soul; also when it went to works, we all come short of the labours of that Godly man. none of them yet was as self denial as he was; I also added that I was not opposed to a true witness against wrong, but a false one. I was seconded by Goodhand Pattison of/from Cloughjordan/but the whole conference stood up to express their belief that there was no clergyman born again; then William Irvine said, "See the majority is against you, John." Then he denounced me again with two untrue accusations. One that I never got on well with any worker (no doubt taking advantage of the rupture between me and John Reyston). The other that I lived for years on his testimony. Unto these I said but little and let the thing pass by. But if God used him to open up my way in Scotland; God used me to open up his way in Ireland; and during the ten years since the revival began with very little exception, I was in lodgings; and hard put to it at times and received very little financial help from him. I was too quiet for William Irvine, and he was a warrior and an able conversationalist.

Then Irvine tested the meeting and asked all those who believe that there are clergymen born again? And there were only two stood up, namely Pattison and I. Then he asked all those who believe that there never was or never could be a clergyman born again to stand up, and every one of them stood up, except two, and there were fully 200 people present. Then Irvine warned me not to visit any saint’s house, but to go on fresh ground for myself, and if I came back after twelve months believing that clergymen were saved, they would look upon me as being unsaved too; that cut the last thread of my fellowship with them, so I left in tears.

Many years have passed away; and time did much to correct extremes; yet I cannot say that the Go-Preacher mission from that time ever did the same soul saving work that characterized the original years of the work. They still exist in an exclusive manner and are more careful in preaching, and modified in their tone. Of the wrong done to me at that time, there has been not public confession or acknowledgement; it severed me from some of my near relatives; and robbed me of my privilege, namely the right of fellowship in the mission I helped to start.

Many persons thought that when I left the Go-Preachers, I would give up the work; or give up portions of the truth; but praise the Lord, all that I held then which was scripturally right, I still hold fast; and this year of grace 1923 finds me still preaching the Gospel, and fully in the Lord’s work and a Go-Preacher, though not in fellowship with them (Nov. , 1941).

1. The Bible’s my guide, for it’s God’s precious Word,
Revealing the will of my Saviour and Lord.
No truth it contains should we ever withhold,
But publish it far with a zeal that is bold.

2. The world is my parish, I’ll preach through it all,
And tell of our Saviour who saves from the fall
The Jew and the Gentile, the rich and the poor,
There’s pardon in Jesus for them to be sure.

3. The people may wonder at such a campaign
And raise opposition that causeth much pain,
But sinners repenting and trusting the Blood,
Shall find full salvation and peace with the Lord.

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote two erroneous statements:
1) William Irvine, Jack, Bill, May Carrolls were Faith Mission preacher in 1897.
and
2) John Long was a Methodist preacher in 1897.

CORRECTIONS:

1)  Jack and Bill Carroll were never Faith Mission preachers.
Their sister May Carroll became a FM worker on October 11, 1899 and left in 1903.

2) John Long was NEVER a Methodist preacher. 
He was appointed a Methodist Colporteur on September 3, 1895 and resigned in November, 1898.
A colporteur is a seller of Methodist literature...NOT a preacher.

[faune]

Jan 3, 2016 13:07:35 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Nate wrote two erroneous statements:
1) William Irvine, Jack, Bill, May Carrolls were Faith Mission preacher in 1897.
and
2) John Long was a Methodist preacher in 1897.

CORRECTIONS:

1)  Jack and Bill Carroll were never Faith Mission preachers.
Their sister May Carroll became a FM worker on October 11, 1899 and left in 1903.

2) John Long was NEVER a Methodist preacher. 
He was appointed a Methodist Colporteur on September 3, 1895 and resigned in November, 1898.
A colporteur is a seller of Methodist literature...NOT a preacher.

Nathan ~ Cherie is right here.  Perhaps you need to check out John Long's Journal entries for 1897 for some clarification? 

www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/1longjohn.php#1872

1897
JANUARY, 1897: I visited Killaloe and Scarif, and Mountshannon. I called at a priest's house, who received me very rashly, he told me that the Douay Testament was got up by a society of damned heretics to proselytize! I was in great danger of my life, and got to prayer privately and the fear of the Lord was upon the village so that I escaped unhurt and went to Tully.

FEBRUARY, 1897: I went to Ennis, where I had the fellowship of the Presbyterian Colporteur, and we had some good success. There I first heard of William Irvine, a Faith Mission Pilgrim who had newly come to evangelize in the County Clare. I heard that he was a wonderful man of God, remarkable for saying, "Praise the Lord," no matter what happened. At that time, Charles Cronhelm, the Methodist Minister of Kilrush, had asked him there for a Mission.

MARCH, 1897: The Faith Mission was founded in Scotland by J. G. Govan, a Christian gentleman, in 1886 for the evangelization of country districts in Scotland and Ireland. The Evangelists, who have the name of Pilgrims, went out two by two. William Irvine was then one of their staff. He was born in Kilsyth, Scotland about the year 1861. He was a collier manager for William Beard and Company, and was converted under the preaching of John McNeill, in Motherwell, in 1893. In nine months after he gave up his situation to go fully on the Lord's work. After spending two years in the Bible Training Institute, Glasgow, he joined the Faith Mission, then he went to preach in County Antrim, from whence he was sent by J. G. Govan to the South of Ireland to evangelize, and to thrust out workers into the harvest fields.

I removed from Ennis to Corofin; while there I had a letter from Charles Cronhelm, to go over to Kilrush for a week end, as he had two Faith Mission Evangelists having meetings and he would like me to meet with them. Unto that invitation I responded and went and spent the week end in the fellowship of William Irvine.

He had announced for a Magic Lantern address, in order to influence the Roman Catholic people to come into the little Methodist Chapel, to hear singing, and the Gospel message. The lantern refused to work that night for something had went wrong with it, and had to give the address without the aid of the Lantern slides and pictures, so he turned it into a sermon. Some Romans were in the meeting and the Evangelist [Wm Irvine] spoke with great vehemence, love and power; placing Catholic and Protestants on the same natural condition, namely all are sinners, all need Salvation or Regeneration; and all can be saved through believing with their heart; and confessing with their mouth the Lord Jesus. His remarks were founded on Mat 16:16-19; and Rom 10:9-10. Unclean spirits cried out of some, and others were convicted, helped and blessed. After the meeting I was introduced to him; then he took me down a street, where he put tracts under doors in the homes, and dropped them on the footpath, so as that I got afraid of hostility rising; however the people stood it well. Next day being the Sabbath, he took me where we had private prayer together, and God blessed my soul with renewed strength.

On Monday, I left Kilrush, and went to Lisdoonvarna, and he [Wm Irvine] left soon after and went back to Queenzieburn, Kilsyth, to see his sick mother, who at that time gave herself to Jesus. In either secular or religious matters, he was a born leader of men; he was a holy man, and practical. In personal dealing, he was preeminently the best conversationalist I ever met, and skilful in soul winning. He had a marvellous insight into the deep things of God's word, and like his Master, was an apt teacher of all who received the truth with pleasure. He always set forth the cross, and was a swift witness against all pride, vainglory and hypocrisy; he was severe on Christians, but merciful to sinners. In prayer, praise, and preaching he excelled in joy, liberty, and power. He was very much opposed and misunderstood by religious people; nevertheless, the common people liked him and heard him gladly. He got for his Call to Service that Scripture "Behold I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth, thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shall make the hills as dust," Isaiah 41:15

While in Lisdoonvarna I was denounced by the priest from off the altar for selling the Scriptures. I had to leave the town and go to Miltown Malbay. A saved sister who lived in the house where I was lodging, prayed for me and said that God would judge the man who meddled with me; her words came true, for that week the priest was struck down with rheumatism and died soon after. I hope he found mercy from Him who willeth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he turn from his way and live.

APRIL, 1897: As time went on, by experience I was finding out that Rome does not and cannot tolerate the reading of the Bible. The growing hardness of the people against Colporteurs; their refusing to buy any books from them; their constant allusion to their priest's denunciations from the altar, also ordering them to burn the Testaments; all this showed the growing hostility of the people buying and reading the Scriptures. I have met very few Roman Catholics lovers of daily reading the Bible. How can they? And do the things they do, and believe the doctrines held and taught by their church. Every Roman bows to the altar, and occasionally to the image of Mary and Jesus; worships the Blessed Virgin, believes in Purgatory and transubstantiation. Because societies judged the work by sales, and pressed on the books, I was feeling more and more the bondage of the work, but how to be set free, I knew not; however God Himself designed a way.

Out of the land of Egypt
Redeemed by precious Blood
Led by the hand of Moses
Straight through the red sea flood.
Not by the great sea border
But by the desert sand
The Lord God led his people
To seek the promised land.

He gave them living water
Out of the solid rock
For Jacob's son and daughter
A great and precious flock.
No enemies could touch them
Jehovah stood between
And never since creation
Was such a desert scene.

He rained them bread from heaven.
They ate of angels food.
He wrote upon the tables
A law both just and good.
A shining fire did lead them
By night upon the way
Also a cloudy pillar
Before them went by day.

For forty years they wandered
Within the wilderness
Although the Lord was angry
He helped them in distress.
They were preserved from danger
Kept by God's mighty hand
Until they came to Canaan
The blessed promised land.

MAY, 1897: During the days spent in that work I had many tiresome journeys; sometimes I walked twenty miles a day. Feeling the need of a rest, I went to Limerick city where the journeys were not so long. While there I underwent a severe trial for lack of money; during the delay I spent a day in prayer and fasting, and I received a very definite anointing of the Holy Spirit, and some money came in next day by post.

He came from His home in the glory
To live and to die on the tree,
And now I delight in the story
Of Jesus the Saviour for me.
I know I am safe in His keeping,
His child in His care may depend.
He never will leave or forsake me
Because well, you see He's my friend.

No matter what trials befall me
He owns me His child and He seals
Henceforth not a servant He calls me
His word, and His will, He reveals.
What He sends to the sinner I claim it
I can on His promise depend
And why should I fear then to name it
Because well, you see He's my friend.

Ashamed of myself, not my Saviour
A sinner Redeemed by His grace,
And now through His Blood, I find favour
Enjoying the simile of His face.
And now I delight in His service
My joy till the journey shall end
You ask Why I witness He frees us,
Because well, you see He's my friend.

JUNE, 1897: I left the city and sailed down to river Shannon for Kilkee. On board the ship, I again met with William Irvine on his return journey from Scotland, to Tarbert, County Kerry. He was very humble and homesick, but very loving and happy. At Tarbert Quay we parted with the agreement that we should write to each other. While in Kilkee, I had an excellent time of prayer and fasting. Peter Greer, the Methodist Minister then in charge, had to go to the Conference in Cork, and he left me to undertake his place in the Methodist Church till he came back, so I got an opportunity of preaching the Gospel. After that I removed to Tarbert and lodged in the same house with William Irvine and Fred Tapp for two weeks.

JULY, 1897: In Tarbert, where he had a mission, and scattered much tracts, he was suffering reproach; nevertheless, he was very happy, but at times repining over the Spiritual laxity of the churches; and was spending much time in prayer for a revival. I went very far out into the country, and succeeded in selling some Testaments. On my return Irvine, encouraged by my success, under the power of a special anointing, filled a bag with Testaments, and went into the country at twilight and sold thirteen, and when he could not get money he took eggs instead, and returned home at eleven o'clock at night.

He was out of an opening, and one day when he was praying, it was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, to write to Goodhand Pattison, the Cloughjordan Methodist Steward about an opening for a mission. That letter resulted in him getting permission from William Whittaker, the Methodist Minister, to have the use of Nenagh Methodist Church.



CHAPTER 5
1897-THE REVIVAL
AUGUST, 1897: I left Tarbert, and went to my Aunt Kate Davis, in Ballyheigue, where I spent two weeks. William Irvine and Fred Tapp left also and went to Spanish Point, and from there to Nenagh where THE REVIVAL BEGAN. After we left Tarbert we were all denounced by the priest from off the altar. From Ballyheigue, I removed to Tralee. I left there for home, greatly discouraged for lack of money. I purposed to give up the work but to love Jesus as much as ever. In one week I returned to it again, being encouraged by the friendly counsel of some who wished me well.

The Revival began in a town which was mostly a Roman population, under very unfavourable circumstances; owing to bad attendances, the Methodist Church was closed, as the Protestants in that town were few in number. At his [Wm Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present. He fought the battle and won the victory alone in prayer with God in his lodging, when God gave him that promise; "And lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee." Acts 27:24. The Protestant School Mistress, Sister Oakley, was the first to get saved; altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus.

SEPTEMBER, 1897: During that month I visited Portumna and Borrisokane. Pastor Nesbitt resigned the superintendency of the Colportage work and Pastor Merrick accepted it. The society paid me the debt which enabled me to buy a second hand bicycle; it turned out to be of great use to me during the Revival Days that followed. At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted; they had a brother, Bill Carroll, who was a steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath. Through their instrumentality they got the use of the School House in Rathmolyon for a mission for William Irvine, where forty persons got converted; most of them afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work. The Episcopal minister and his daughter attended the meetings and were sympathetic; he said that God sent that man in answer to his mother's prayers; who prayed for the conversion of every member of that congregation. The humility, love, self denial, compassion, humour, etc. of the Evangelist, also his complete abandonment to God won the affections of all who came in contact with him.

[CherieKropp]

John Long was a seller of Methodist literature and a preacher himself. He was still selling books/literature when he was a 2x2 worker, and many of the workers didn't like what he was doing selling literatures.
What do you base this statement on:

He was still selling books/literature when he was a 2x2 worker, and many of the workers didn't like what he was doing selling literatures.

John Long was never an ordained Methodist preacher.

1901, JUNE 6: Edward Cooney’s last appointment before he entered the work full time was to attend the wedding of Bill Carroll and Margaret Hastings held in Borrosokane, Co. Tipperary. They were married on June 6, 1901. They entered the work in 1903 as married couple.

See Wedding Photo in TTT Photo Gallery:  www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=348.

[faune]

Here's a little history on the RESTORATION MOVEMENT of the 19th Century, which included such groups as the Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons, and finally the 2x2's at the close of that century. This was the final explanation given for the 2x2's in this chapter regarding restoring the New Testament Church or Primitve Christianity back to its roots.

What I find rather amusing is that the 2x2's, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and Herbert Armstrong's World Church of God and The Way International all refer to themselves as "the Truth" among themselves.

THE RESTORATION MOVEMENT


Various Christian men yearned to restore the church to its original state, and to return to the simple teaching of the Bible alone for the Christians' guide and rule. They believed the church needed more than reform or repair. Various men began working independently of each other toward their goal for the church to return to the essential marks of the primitive New Testament church of the Apostolic Age. They abandoned all man-made creeds, traditions, confessions, teachings and doctrines. They called themselves "Christians" only, but did not believe they were the only Christians. They took no name for their teachings, and considered this return to primitive Christianity a movement, not a new denomination or sect.


They were committed to the restoration principle and the maintenance of New Testament Christianity. They were committed to the inspiration and authority of Scripture and their ambition was "to do Bible things in Bible ways." One of their more familiar mottoes was: "Where the Scripture speaks, we speak; where the scripture is silent, we are silent."


The names of some of these men were Alexander Campbell, Thomas Campbell, Walter Scott, Barton Warren Stone. Their restoration work was the beginning of the three churches known today as The Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, and The Church of Christ. For some pioneers, and others who have been prominent in the Restoration Movement, see the Encyclopedia Britannica or www.gotquestions.org/Restoration-movement.html


The movement started by Wm Irvine included many of these same principles. Many others began moves back to the basics of Christianity which evolved into churches. The churches differ in their perspective of what particulars in the New Testament church and ministry they chose to emphasize. Like the 2x2 Church, several other religious movements also hold the belief that no one on earth for eighteen centuries has understood the Bible until their particular self-proclaimed leader was "raised up to restore" the correct or true interpretation of God's truth, will and way to mankind through his/her personal "revelations."


Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, claimed the Bible had been so badly distorted by human error and mortal mind that she alone had been inspired by God to "restore" its correct interpretation to mankind.


Charles T. Russell, founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, launched an attack against the teachings of Christianity, proclaiming all evangelists, pastors and teachers to be dead wrong; that he alone correctly understood God's will, the long-lost truths of the Bible, and he "restored" God's real intent in the Bible to mankind.


Herbert W. Armstrong, founder of the Worldwide Church of God, claimed to have received one-man "revelations" in which God "restored" through him the true gospel of Christ which was not taught for nineteen and a half centuries, making the Worldwide Church of God the one and only true church of God.


Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of The Way International, claimed in the early 1950's that God spoke directly to him and gave him the first accurate knowledge of the Bible since the first century; that true Christianity was lost early in church history, and God gave him the job of "restoring" the gospel message today.


Joseph Smith, founder of Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints (Mormons), claimed that every church was corrupt, their creeds an abomination to God, and that he alone had been chosen to "restore" Christ's kingdom on earth. Smith claimed God and Jesus both appeared to him, gave him divine revelation, continued to give him progressive revelation, and appointed him as His "prophet." Some of his "revelations" were preserved in books to which the Mormons religiously adhere, along with the Bible.


All these religious leaders claimed that God broke through hundreds of years of silence to speak through each of them and them only at long last. Could it not be appropriately added to the above list:


William Irvine, founder of the church without a name (or of "Christian Conventions"), believed he alone had been divinely anointed to "restore" God's true way to earth, claiming every other way, church, ministry and preacher led to a lost eternity, and that the church he founded was God's ONLY true way on earth. "


Why is Irvine's self-proclaimed "revelation," or experiment more reliable or superior than those of the others? ALL these individuals claimed that they too received a "revelation." What makes Irvine's "revelation" true and the others supposedly "false?"

[faune]

For anyone who might be interested in checking out this succession story theory, which is another yarn circulating regarding the 2x2's, you might want to check out this Google book on line by Kevin Daniel, entitled "Reinventing the Truth" ~ especially Chapters 3 & 4, which refutes with viable evidence a number of these allegations regarding a 2x2 succession story down though the centuries, which Nathan likes to repeat oftentimes on TMB.


books.google.com/books?id=7y04X8o6JOIC&pg=PR7&lpg=PR7&dq=Reinventing+the+Truth+by+kevin+daniel&source=bl&ots=AIIpsJ7YgO&sig=gImN0juoVLe6_rVeya3dcK-ScHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigmeGR5ovKAhUS82MKHbBNCtQQ6AEIOjAJ#v=onepage&q=Reinventing%20the%20Truth%20by%20kevin%20daniel&f=false

Reinventing the Truth by Kevin Daniel (free on-line Google book)

[faune]

I realize a discussion relating to Cornelius Jaenen's book will probably follow on this succession theory relating to the 2x2's, so here's a link to a thread started by Cherie back in 2010 that deals quite well with this subject for anybody who might be interested in reviewing it.

professing.proboards.com/thread/15451    Cornelus Jaenen's

Post by CherieKropp on Feb 3, 2010 at 11:53am

Nate is referring to this document I posted on another thread which was written to Wikipedia by Dr. J:


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:02:38 -0500 (EST)
From: cornelius jaenen
Subject: CHRISTIANS

I have the E-mail; that was forwarded from the History department at the University of Ottawa where I am an Emeritus Professor long retired but active in graduate and post-doctoral studies, etc. I have noted carefully your research and thoughts and will confess there was a brief period when I too thought there was an unbroken apostolic succession of "workers" from the first century to our day.

One of the workers who disabused me of that idea was Stanley Lee, our overseer in Manitoba at the time. Of course, I then paid much more attention to the teaching given by Jack Carroll, George Walker, and especially Wilson Reid.

The write-up under my name you refer to is unscientific and undocumented and should not be in circulation. I encourage you to read carefully, in short sections at a time or it becomes undigestable, "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship..." that sets out from documents the nature of the early church [not always what restorationists have imagined] and a "chain of witnesses" of efforts over the centuries to restore, regain, reconstitute, renew, retain, etc. the original faith.

There was no unbroken consistent line of "workers" from the first century to our day [even the Roman Catholic succession is tenuous at times] but the Spirit was always working in the world to retain faith until Jesus returns. And so there were almost certainly "true believers" in every age and century somewhere but not in the sense of a constant visible community or fellowship.

I have tried to formulate from the mediaeval documents the characteristics of such a spiritual people and tradition. "Hold fast the tradition you have been taught." Faith expresses itself in an ideal, a life-style, not always through a visible institution and hierarchy such as our fellowship at present since 1897.

We are grateful that there has been this full restoration in our day, but our faith is not based on our organization or an unbroken lineage. We and what we believe is not the Way - Jesus is still THE WAY and He is THE TRUTH.

Warmest greetings and good wishes,

Cornelius J. Jaenen


Please note most specifically that Cornelius himself admits that his "Following Up..." statement "is unscientific and undocumented and should not be in circulation." We should remember that even the most learned and professional scholar still has his or her bias, and that historical "facts" can be selected and presented in such a way to support any hypothesis. If Cornelius is the "foremost authority" on the historical question, as another editor has written in the article, we should recognize as he himself has stated, that our present fellowship does not date back before the 1897 start date. He calls our fellowship a "full restoration" and not a "continuation." Eddie Tor 23:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


From Wikipedia Talk: ChristianConventions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Christian_Conventions#Cornelius_Jaenen.27s_role_as_church_historian

[blandie]

Lets not also forget that john long not only pointed to 1897 in his diary but he also gave the 1897 date when he wrote to the editor of the 'heresies exposed' book:

Mr. John Long has written us that he was the man who obtained for William Irvine 'the first opening for a mission in Nenagh, August, 1897.' That 'William Irvine is the name of the original leader of the Go-Preachers. Irvine Weir was one of the first staff of preachers who emigrated to America; these two names seem to have got mixed up.' He declares that the movement dates from 1897.

[CherieKropp]

Jan 3, 2016 14:57:50 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Jan 3, 2016 14:52:25 GMT -5 blandie said:

Lets not also forget that john long not only pointed to 1897 in his diary but he also gave the 1897 date when he wrote to the editor of the 'heresies exposed' book:

The Faith Mission was/is an Inter-denomination group they work mission meetings with different Protestants denomination churches... In 1897 William Irvine, the Faith Mission pilgrim/preacher shared an Inter-denomination mission with the Methodist, preacher John Long.... In 1897 William Irvine and John Long shared the same pulpit as fellow preachers. They didn't start a 2x2 sect in 1897! That came later... the Ball got rolling around 1898-99 the 2x2 sect officially came about after 1901 when William Irvine left the Faith Mission permanently.

Please show us where this is found in John Long's Journal: In 1897 William Irvine and John Long shared the same pulpit as fellow preachers.

John Long considered himself to be “under” Irvine. He wrote: "I first met William Irvine...in the Methodist Church, Kilrush, County Clare, where he was having a mission. I was greatly blessed under his ministry and fellowship, and I used influence to get him openings which resulted in his holding a mission in the Methodist Church, Nenagh, County Tipperary, where a revival began in August, 1897. That Revival was the origin of the Go Preacher fellowship. Whole households got converted.” (Life & Ministry of Edward Cooney by Patricia Roberts p12-13)

That particular Revival was conducted by Wm Irvine. The Methodist building in Nenagh where Irvine preached his highly successful Revival Mission wasn’t what drew people, nor was it the building that encouraged the people to convert. It was the life and message of Wm Irvine. There is no written evidence that Long, a young Methodist Colporteur (a seller of Methodist literature) at that time, preached in either of these two early missions.

Possibly the first time John Long had a part in Irvine’s missions was at the meetings held at Borrisokane and Cloughjordan, for he wrote that "in both of them, I was asked to speak. I was very nervous and kept looking to the Lord for a message, and God gave me revelation, liberty, and power, and began to establish my way in presence of the Brethren.” (John Long’s Journal, January, 1898)

[CherieKropp]

Update: I have completed my written Review of Dr. Jaenen's book.

Currently someone quite knowledgeable of Christian history and 2x2 history is reviewing my review and will soon return it to me.

I plan to post it on TTT and TLC Website within the next month.

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote:
I shouldn't have said they preached in the same church because I wasn't there. It was my guess... John Long used his influence as a Methodist preacher and get an opening in the Methodist church for William Irvine, a Faith Mission preacher to have his gospel meeting in Nenagh, 1897.

You didnt correct your statement far enough...John Long was never a recognized, ordained Methodist preacher.

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote:  That was why John Long called a Methodist Colporteur: Definition of colporteur in the Legal Dictionary ... notes that those recruited as Methodist preachers typically came from uneducated, humble backgrounds, ...

So what if Methodist preachers came from uneducated, etc. backgrounds???
That has nothing to do with John Long.
 
BECAUSE  John Long wasnt a Methodist preacher--no matter what his background.

He was a Methodist colporteur. 
There were no other Methodist openings he qualified for...when he wanted to go in the Lord's work

A Methodist colporteur is not the same office as a Methodist preacher.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2016 11:48:16 GMT -5 faune said:

Since this is the beginning of a brand new year, I thought a thread dealing with the stories related to the Truth Fellowship  early beginnings was in order.   Any comments?

www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/howstart.php   

Stories About The Beginning ~ How When Where did the 2x2 Church start?   (Revised Oct. 4, 2015)

here's a good story

it started when the hand of God moved upon the heart of man to correct and revive truth

[blandie]

Jan 3, 2016 14:51:16 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement.

Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same.

So, this is from wiki -

It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9]

And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots.

Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Paul the apostle-> Vaudois/Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers

I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th century, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation. Here is a list of other Holiness denominations in the UK and America that began during or around that time.

As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make Irvine the first leader/ overseer/ head worker of the movement. Founder? I've just never liked that word in connection with the f&w movement. Nathan's selection of posts in the early part of this thread shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, IMO. Now, for Nathan's benefit, Holiness began with John Wesley's work and preaching on Christian Perfection, and Wesley's ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area by the Moravian church which is a movement that was influenced by the Waldensians/ Vaudois.

Will I. was steeped in presbyterian calvinism - and not in holiness ideas - in both his upbringing and his conversion and his bible education. Will I. rejected wesley and preached him into hell and Will I. moved away from faith mission and keswick because of their holiness tendencies and excommunicated john long because he wouldn't give up holiness ideas. Even if some early workers had some holiness ideas the revivalist and emphasis on public outreach that are such strong characteristics of holiness movements was discarded by 2x2-ism long ago. The holiness movement is still around in the methodists and pentecostals and others - john long went into that after Will I. booted him - so why does 2x2-ism still regard them as false and not in fellowship with their believers? So are the moravians and waldensians - the ones who didn't stay with the rcc - but they too are rejected by 2x2-ism as false. Theres also plenty of actual documents from folks who were around at the time pointing to Will I. being the founder of 2x2-ism and pointing to the year 1897 - theres john long's statements and Will I.'s statements and sworn statements by workers cooney and mcclung and newspaper and other accounts from that time. Whats the point of trying to make out it was a different date based on conjecture flying in the face of facts or making out that it was somebody besides irvine that started it based on guesswork?

Those types of rationalizations don't change the basic fact that 2x2-ism only traces back to around 118 years when it was cobbled together by a man - or men for those who dismiss the solid evidence that Will I. started and led it through its early growth period. Those tales don't do anything to excuse or make go away the lies - intentional and just repeating the falsehoods - that have been told to coverup the truth about the beginnings. Maybe its just trying to blur the facts or cast doubts on the solid evidence or encourage a myth that parkers and others got the whole thing wrong when they've given an accurate account based on evidence? Its odd to see such a fuss made over details that have been established in facts and completely lost sight of the big picture - 2x2-ism's history claims that it is the modern survival of the new testament church is false and it does have a documented history and it doesn't go back to the shores of galilee and it is a relatively new denomination and it doesn't trace to any chain of movements or any successionist chain of apostles that goes back to christ.

Every christian movement says it goes back to christ and 2x2-ism isn't any different or better in that way. Inventing a new lightbulb doesn't mean your lightbulb goes back to thomas edison or to the start of electricity or that because the bible mentions lightning that means god moved you to build a new model of lightbulb - all you did was build a new model after your own design.

[Deleted]

It's been confirmed. The 2x2s started as an offshoot of the Bogomils. Finally, something that explains all the kid-diddling among 2x2s.

[blandie]

Jan 3, 2016 20:59:53 GMT -5 NathanB said:

I will repeat this the starting date of 2x2 1897 is false. There was NO 2x2 preacher or the friends in 1897.

I think john long and Will I. were there and they said 1897. So did other early workers who would have known and repeating some newly minted claim that 1897 is false some 118 years later doesn't show that they were wrong.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2016 21:08:00 GMT -5 @simpleton said:

It's been confirmed. The 2x2s started as an offshoot of the Bogomils. Finally, something that explains all the kid-diddling among 2x2s.

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote: William Irvine recruited John Long to become the Faith Mission preacher/Pilgrim, and was accepted in 1898 by John Govan, the founder. However, John Long declined and he decided to be Faith Mission Prayer Union member 1898-1915 instead. Eventually, John Long became a 2x2 worker after 1900-1907.

That is correct--except the 1905 Workers List shows Long as entering the work in 1899 (not 1900).

[blandie]

Jan 3, 2016 21:59:42 GMT -5 NathanB said:

William Irvine Faith Mission Inter-denomination preacher and John Long, a Methodist non-ordain preacher were together at the Methodist church in 1897.

Yes, they were wrong with the starting date, they were close but NOT exactly about the starting date for 2x2 1897. They didn't know the full story.

Faith mission was not and is not a church - there wasn't anything that prevented Will I. from preaching his own new religion and also doing work for faith mission. You are making a big mistake in putting up the false dichotomy that someone has to belong to faith mission and cannot at the same time participate in another church - thats not how faith mission works. Preachers in other churches did preaching for both their own churches and also did work for faith mission - still do - and it wasn't any different for Will I. What set off the big split was Will I. using his faith mission position to recruit people away from other churches to his own. Prior to that there was no incompatibility with Will I. doing faith mission work on one hand and also directing the new 2x2-ism movement. Will I. and john long and all the others weren't wrong with the date that was consistently given - they were there.

[Grant]

One does not have to belong to a group to attend their prayer meetings. They are open interdenominational for anyone to attend. It's the same with Keswick conventions. Next you will be saying they were members of Keswick so couldn't have been 2x2s at the same time.

The Faith Mission did not practice communion or baptism because they were not a church. They were a group of preachers from churches. The Faith Mission were not a denomination but their preachers represented many denominations. They were interdenominational. They stuck to their calling of being preachers and not a denomination. The workers started out like that but soon turned into a denomination.

[blandie]

Jan 3, 2016 23:06:44 GMT -5 NathanB said:

John Long became Faith Mission Prayer union member in 1898-1915... the 1905 workers list is incorrect for John Long entering the 2x2 work in 1899. Whenever John Long became 2x2 worker he still kept his Faith Mission Prayer union membership after he was excommunicated from the 2x2 worker in 1907. William Irvin left the Faith Mission 12/1900. William Irvine became 2x2 worker after 12/1900.

Wrong again. You are making participating with faith mission and participating or ministering with another church mutually exclusive - like enuf said the two things are not mutually exclusive.

Please try to grasp the concept of faith mission NOT being a church and faith mission prayer unions NOT being churches - they weren't and never were. It is very odd that you haven't yet grasped this simple concept in how faith mission was set up.

[Grant]

FM was not a church Nathan. They were a missionary organization. They were preachers who preached in the open air and in churches. Of course they had prayer meetings. It does not make them a church. It seems that their prayer meetings were open meetings for people to pray for the work.

See them as a group of workers who belong to many churches. The FM workers are not there to bring people to their church because they don't have one. They work with a number of churches. They aren't there to form a denomination but work with the existing ones.

If i was to join the FM I would do it with the blessing of my church. I would not be changing denominations by joining the FM I would go their to join their outreach/ missionary program me. I would attend a church on a Sunday

[Grant]

I added more to my post above Nathan while you were posting yours.

FM is not a church, it is a missionary organization. Can't you see the difference?

A bible college does not make it a church. It makes it a Bible College. It is interdenominational meaning anyone from any church can go qnd study there. It caters for those who belong to churches which certainly does not make it a church or denomination. It works with many churches.

[Grant]

Now you are getting it. It is not a church but a place for people to train in ministry, go out preaching or however you want to get involved.

Interdenominational meaning they serve the wider Christian community. You could go to Bible College and you would still belong to your own church. You would not be joining the FM church as they are not one. Where ever there are groups of Christians they pray. Christians can get together to pray regardless of what church or denomination they go to. Fm have prayer meetings too.