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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2015 1:35:22 GMT -5
100% true 100% true 100% false DM, you are the one trying to say that God's job is to fix character defects. It's not, okay? Millions of A.A. members are trying to explain that by learning to trust a Higher Power, they are able to conquer what they have tried multiple times and failed via other methods. Perhaps you've seen other ways work as well, but their solution...and it works by the millions, after finding failure in anything else they tried...is a Higher Power. Are you calling these millions of people liars? I would say that the results from those trusting in the higher power have been shown to be on the low side - some studies show about a 5% success rate. I don't think the people are lying - I think the organization is misrepresenting it's success rates. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 15, 2015 11:00:44 GMT -5
But you are missing the mpart about God 'as we understand him'. Atheists and agnostics also rely in a higher power in AA, without needing that higher power to mean God 'as other people understand him'. AA provides a support group of people for the alcoholic that other groups do not. People that can be called at any time if the day or night who are there to support those who are trying to shake the need to drink.
One person started out believing the table he sat at to be his higher power. He could see it and touch it. He went on to become a Christian, after living his life as a non-believer. Last I knew, he was about 29 years so er.
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Post by matisse on Dec 15, 2015 11:29:05 GMT -5
But you are missing the mpart about God 'as we understand him'. Atheists and agnostics also rely in a higher power in AA, without needing that higher power to mean God 'as other people understand him'. AA provides a support group of people for the alcoholic that other groups do not. People that can be called at any time if the day or night who are there to support those who are trying to shake the need to drink. One person started out believing the table he sat at to be his higher power. He could see it and touch it. He went on to become a Christian, after living his life as a non-believer. Last I knew, he was about 29 years so er. I used the AA 12 step model, not for recovery from alcoholism but as a template for some work I did with a therapist. I found a secular version that made no references to God - or even a "Higher Power" . For me, the "spiritual resources" (the book's alternative to the term "Higher Power") came to mean community and interpersonal connection. There was something transformative about compiling an "inventory" (for me, that meant anything and everything I felt any shame about) and then trusting another human being with this knowledge abut me. I found that it helped me to begin forgiving myself for being human, and forgiving others for being human as well. (As a side note, I have wondered if shame and forgiveness would have figured so significantly in my process had I been raised in a different tradition.) |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 15, 2015 14:13:02 GMT -5
In a very loose definition of religion, you may be right, DM. Certainly not using a common definition of religion. There is no worship of a god, no consensus between members on what higher power exists. A.A. is clear that it does not matter what you believe, it only matters that you are able to find something to believe and trust.
Actually, I think belief in a distant, authoritarian God is more of an obstacle than a help. Catholics sometimes have trouble in A.A., lol...sometimes their God is more interested in punishing than helping. It's hard to shift this type of believer from religion to spirituality. Many atheists do well in A.A., because the baggage of a predefined God isn't there.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 15, 2015 14:28:55 GMT -5
Rational, it's tricky measuring successes. You can't "fix" an alcohol addiction; you endure it, live with it, not give in to it on a daily basis. For example, many people are in and out of A.A. When following the principles they are successful; when not, they are not. They are successful when inside, unsuccessful when outside. Do we measure success by the number of days they drink vs. the number they don't?
I think the whole A.A. thing is mysterious to people who aren't close to it, in much the way someone born an atheist can't comprehend the point of church. The higher power brings meaning, purpose, courage, comfort...all the things we go to church for. I am constantly blown away by the similarities between A.A. fellowship and the F&Ws.
But what does this mean? It means the chosen higher power isn't important; belief in and reliance upon something bigger than yourself is.
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2015 14:49:46 GMT -5
In a very loose definition of religion, you may be right, DM. Certainly not using a common definition of religion. There is no worship of a god, no consensus between members on what higher power exists. A.A. is clear that it does not matter what you believe, it only matters that you are able to find something to believe and trust. Actually, I think belief in a distant, authoritarian God is more of an obstacle than a help. Catholics sometimes have trouble in A.A., lol...sometimes their God is more interested in punishing than helping. Many atheists do well in A.A., because the baggage of a predefined God isn't there. I am not sure this works well for people of any belief. With a 95% first year dropout rate the numbers quoted by the AA organization are doubtful. Of course mandated AA attendance does boost the numbers but at what cost? If you had diabetes and the doctor told you that the treatment involved accepting that you are powerlessness, surrendering to a higher power, and following that up by praying for removal of your defects of character I am guessing you’d would look for a second opinion. Of course then you would be accused of being in denial and not 'working the steps'. Should it happen that you succeeded in getting your disease under control without following the steps there is a chance you would be dismissed as a 'sweet diabetic' (rather than a 'dry drunk'). AA does work for some people but there is rarely a box that all people fit into. For an look at AA from a different point of view a book called The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry by Dr. Lance Dodes supplies evidence that shows we may have been going down the wrong path for the past 75 years. |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 15, 2015 15:07:39 GMT -5
That is correct rational, A.A. is far from easy and doesn't fit with all people. Just like no religion is best for all people.
Getting back to the topic: This may sound absurd, but I think it's important. Another attribute of God is that he doesn't show himself to everybody. Many people just don't feel spiritual (that there exists something bigger than they) and never will.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 15, 2015 17:52:02 GMT -5
But you are missing the part about God 'as we understand him'. Atheists and agnostics also rely in a higher power in AA, without needing that higher power to mean God 'as other people understand him'. AA provides a support group of people for the alcoholic that other groups do not. People that can be called at any time if the day or night who are there to support those who are trying to shake the need to drink. One person started out believing the table he sat at to be his higher power. He could see it and touch it. He went on to become a Christian, after living his life as a non-believer. Last I knew, he was about 29 years so er.
I realize that phrase, "as we understand him" is there, -however, how can you possibly see the other phrases as NOT referring to the "higher power" as the Christian god?
For instance, these phrases: "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." (capital G--)
"Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs." (again, capital G--)
" Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character." (again, capital G--)
"Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings." (capital H--)
"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." (Praying?) (conscious contact with God?) (His will ?)
"requires you to commit to some kind of spiritual practice. That practice could be anything from prayer, to meditation, to reading scripture." ( "Scripture?" What scripture?)
You do realize that I did NOT write this wording myself.
It came directly from the A.A. Alcoholic Anonymous 12 steps program.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 15, 2015 18:05:06 GMT -5
In a very loose definition of religion, you may be right, DM. Certainly not using a common definition of religion . There is no worship of a god, no consensus between members on what higher power exists. A.A. is clear that it does not matter what you believe, it only matters that you are able to find something to believe and trust. Actually, I think belief in a distant, authoritarian God is more of an obstacle than a help. Catholics sometimes have trouble in A.A., lol...sometimes their God is more interested in punishing than helping. It's hard to shift this type of believer from religion to spirituality. Many atheists do well in A.A., because the baggage of a predefined God isn't there.
Then why are all those phrases that refer to the "higher power" all in very specific Christian words?
How could an atheist possibly "do well" with all those words about a god hanging over their head?
Do you have any statistics as to the number, even one atheist, -who did well?
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Post by SharonArnold on Dec 15, 2015 18:23:09 GMT -5
Many people just don't feel spiritual (that there exists something bigger than they) and never will. In my exiting years (early 1990’s) I read Gerald Schroeder’s book “Genesis and the Big Bang Theory: The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible”. A physicist, and Orthodox Jew, he wrote it (at least in part) in anticipation of his young son’s questions, if I remember correctly. In this book, he makes a heroic attempt to reconcile the Biblical account of creation with Modern Science. One of the interesting ideas I came away with was his proposal that hominids existed on earth long before God breathed the “breath of life” into man and where man became “a living soul”. The implication (to my mind) was that there might still be human-like creatures walking the face of the earth, who do not have souls. Now, this does not particularly align with my current world view, but my mind still returns to it when I observe some of the interactions on this board. |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 15, 2015 18:38:17 GMT -5
Do you have any statistics as to the number, even one atheist, -who did well? [/b][/font][/quote] My fiance's sponsor and best friend is an atheist. She has learned that in AA-speak, "God" is shorthand for "higher power" and doesn't get all bent out of shape about it. May I recommend that you pick up a copy of the Big Book to satisfy your questions about AA ... it's all there. |
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Post by Gene on Dec 15, 2015 18:39:36 GMT -5
Many people just don't feel spiritual (that there exists something bigger than they) and never will. ... there might still be human-like creatures walking the face of the earth, who do not have souls. Now, this does not particularly align with my current world view, but my mind still returns to it when I observe some of the interactions on this board. I wonder if there's a way to run a poll to determine which participants on this board are human, and which are human-like creatures who do not have souls.... |
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Post by Yes on Dec 26, 2015 20:41:11 GMT -5
A very good friend of mine who has since passed away from jaundice shared his testimony when he was going through alcohol treatment
He said that they were giveing up on him,
It was strapped to the bed about 40 years ago when they thought that was the way to help them but the cure rate was close to zero most people died going through detox strapped to their bed.
As he lay there struggling against the straps and hearing the doctors say that he wouldn't make it till morning he realized he needed help and he told me he said ,god if you're there take this craving away for me and (he snapped his finger )and said of just like that his craving was gone hundred percent cured . The next morning the doctors were amazed they couldn't believe he was still alive and even feeling well and in his own mind
I don't think he touched another drop for 40 years as he felt/ know he couldn't handle it again that's just what he told me speaking from his heart he was a very kind person , very unpretentious. and not what you or anyone would consider a religious person
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 27, 2015 4:53:06 GMT -5
Do you have any statistics as to the number, even one atheist, -who did well? [/quote] So, it is my guess that there wasn't any other programs available to her at that time so she just rationalized the same way that religionists rationalize to convince themselves that it is a "higher power" that has helped them.
Actually, I would love to have one of those first printings of an AA book, Some of them sell for thousands of dollars; like $10,000 & more at times. |
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Post by Yes on Dec 27, 2015 8:51:13 GMT -5
Paraphrasing, I would say God is, and He rewards those that seek to know what He will reward , my definition .  ? |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 27, 2015 11:23:02 GMT -5
Why not ask instead of guessing, dm?
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Post by rational on Dec 27, 2015 12:37:15 GMT -5
If a higher power is being credited with the success rate of AA it raises the question of why the success rate is so low. A 95% dropout rate before the first year is poor.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 27, 2015 13:01:50 GMT -5
If a higher power is being credited with the success rate of AA it raises the question of why the success rate is so low. A 95% dropout rate before the first year is poor. Might it be lack of belief? Again, the AA Big Book credits belief, and recognizes that what you believe in doesn't matter, so long as the believed-in strength is greater than your own. Even Jesus credited the recipient's faith, not God, for his success in healing. |
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Post by Yes on Dec 27, 2015 13:19:13 GMT -5
Possibly the more desperate the person is,
they are easier to help??
If I don't think it is critical , and I don't think
I can be helped, then likely won't be helped, jmo
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Post by joanna on Dec 27, 2015 20:17:39 GMT -5
How do we define "God"?
This is obviously a reference to the god of Abraham, one of the thousands of gods created by ancient people who were striving to make sense of their world.
If one of the billion hindus was asked this question they would define "gods"; a muslim would talk of allah and someone who opposes the patriarchal tone of the Hebrew bible would speak of the god of El (the creator) also referred to as YHWH (Yahweh) wife, Asherah, who was edited out to validate male dominion. The consequences of biblical patriarchy are dire.
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Post by Lee on Dec 27, 2015 21:09:52 GMT -5
So its a man thing. I hate men. I wish I were a woman.
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Post by Lee on Dec 27, 2015 21:14:50 GMT -5
The healthy or healthier believe in something. Their belief ranges from God to themselves but they do. The common denominator of drunks is a loss or abandonment of faith in everything.
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Post by matisse on Dec 28, 2015 2:28:14 GMT -5
The healthy or healthier believe in something. Their belief ranges from God to themselves but they do. The common denominator of drunks is a loss or abandonment of faith in everything. So you agree that one does not have to believe in "God" to be healthy? |
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Post by Lee on Dec 28, 2015 2:50:28 GMT -5
Relatively. Perfect health cannot be dissected from a study of God.
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Post by Gene on Dec 28, 2015 6:28:51 GMT -5
How do we define "God"? This is obviously a reference to the god of Abraham, one of the thousands of gods created by ancient people who were striving to make sense of their world. If one of the billion hindus was asked this question they would define "gods"; a muslim would talk of allah and someone who opposes the patriarchal tone of the Hebrew bible would speak of the god of Abraham's wife, Asherah, who was edited out to validate male dominion. The consequences of biblical patriarchy are dire. Joanna, I think you've taken too narrow a view of the question. I didn't think the question was an obvious reference to the god of Abraham. In fact, just the opposite: This phrase in the OP opened my mind to the possibility of a very broad definition of god: |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2015 9:52:46 GMT -5
Asherah? Abraham's wife? Possibly someone needs to get their myths accurate, before they try teaching them to others?!
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Post by joanna on Dec 28, 2015 19:36:06 GMT -5
@dennisj my apologies as it was meant to be Yahweh (the god of the Hebrew bible) not Abraham. Biblical scholars have discovered that the ancient Israelites originally worshiped Asherah and El / YHWH as a pair. This Jewish Archive link tells more about these discoveries & there are other sources. Gene I considered that the use of a proper noun in the original question inferred a specific "God" and on this forum most accept it is usually the one mentioned in the Hebrew bible. If the question is encouraging a generic interpretation then maybe "How do we define god(s)?' would be the go? |
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Post by Gene on Dec 28, 2015 19:53:56 GMT -5
@dennisj my apologies as it was meant to be Yahweh (the god of the Hebrew bible) not Abraham. Biblical scholars have discovered that the ancient Israelites originally worshiped Asherah and El / YHWH as a pair. This Jewish Archive link tells more about these discoveries & there are other sources. Gene I considered that the use of a proper noun in the original question inferred a specific "God" and on this forum most accept it is usually the one mentioned in the Hebrew bible. If the question is encouraging a generic interpretation then maybe "How do we define god(s)?' would be the go? I may be mistaken about the intent of the OP, but without regard to the intent, I would encourage all readers to interpret the word "God" or "god" however they wish.... and then tell us how they define it! |
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