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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 5, 2015 14:39:31 GMT -5
Some great examples of feeling the touch of God already in the first thread!
I know that most people have already settled upon an explanation for their God-experiences. Will believers be of any more help in an objective search than those who have already decided there is nothing beyond materialism?
In other words, are any of us capable of taking a step back to describe our religious or spiritual experiences without postulating about their cause, or are our particular set of beliefs so integrated into our experiences that we cannot participate open-mindedly? I doubt anyone seriously imagines their religion is the only one that offers comfort/awe/Spirit-bathing/etc., so I'm talking about the difference between saying "I prayed to Jesus and he heard me and sent an angel to strengthen me" and "I fell to my knees in prayer and immediately a feeling of calmness came over me."
So, an open invitation: Any believers who will share experiences in objective terms, or any disbelievers who have God-like mysteries they haven't yet explained?
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Post by placid-void on Dec 5, 2015 18:44:08 GMT -5
Some great examples of feeling the touch of God already in the first thread! I know that most people have already settled upon an explanation for their God-experiences. Will believers be of any more help in an objective search than those who have already decided there is nothing beyond materialism? In other words, are any of us capable of taking a step back to describe our religious or spiritual experiences without postulating about their cause, or are our particular set of beliefs so integrated into our experiences that we cannot participate open-mindedly? I doubt anyone seriously imagines their religion is the only one that offers comfort/awe/Spirit-bathing/etc., so I'm talking about the difference between saying "I prayed to Jesus and he heard me and sent an angel to strengthen me" and "I fell to my knees in prayer and immediately a feeling of calmness came over me." So, an open invitation: Any believers who will share experiences in objective terms, or any disbelievers who have God-like mysteries they haven't yet explained? DD, I am interested in your binary view of contributors to the search, believers & non-believers. Do you have a point of view about the possible contribution of agnostics to the search? |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 5, 2015 19:38:03 GMT -5
My bias will draw fire, yknot, but my experience is actually that only the undecided are much help. Both believers and disbelievers have too limited a view of God (and often an agenda, if they're on forums) to want to dig very deep. So...there, I've offended 98% of the population, there goes our search!  |
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Post by SharonArnold on Dec 5, 2015 20:27:44 GMT -5
My bias will draw fire, yknot, but my experience is actually that only the undecided are much help. Both believers and disbelievers have too limited a view of God (and often an agenda, if they're on forums) to want to dig very deep. So...there, I've offended 98% of the population, there goes our search! I think your categorizations are incorrect. It is not a matter of being a believer/non-believer/undecided. It is a matter of having an open enough mind to make an effort to understand what others are trying to say. Egos can get in the way of everyone, regardless the label they wear. We all have them, and they can show up at the most unexpected moments. I've always liked this definition: "True humility is knowing that you may learn something in the very next moment that will change how you see things forever." |
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Post by placid-void on Dec 5, 2015 21:39:44 GMT -5
My difficulty at this juncture revolves around vocabulary and definitions. I do not equate undecided and agnostic. To be undecided implies having the knowledge to render one capable of distinguishing and choosing between two or more alternatives. My personal understanding is that an agnostic is a person that believes that there is knowledge and wisdom beyond the understanding of man. Unable to know, an agnostic chooses not to decide between human categories of beliefs. This is my present conception of agnosticism and I am comfortable with this belief system at this time.
As SharonArnold has pointed out above: I "may learn something" participating in the conversations of these threads "that will change how I see things forever."
Believe it or not I have had such experiences in my secular life on numerous occasions!
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Post by SharonArnold on Dec 5, 2015 21:49:53 GMT -5
My difficulty at this juncture revolves around vocabulary and definitions. I do not equate undecided and agnostic. To be undecided implies having the knowledge to render one capable of distinguishing and choosing between two or more alternatives. My personal understanding is that an agnostic is a person that believes that there is knowledge and wisdom beyond the understanding of man. Unable to know, an agnostic chooses not to decide between human categories of beliefs. This is my present conception of agnosticism and I am comfortable with this belief system at this time. As SharonArnold has pointed out above: I "may learn something" participating in the conversations of these threads "that will change how I see things forever." Believe it or not I have had such experiences in my secular life on numerous occasions! I had the same thought of "agnostic" vs "undecided" when I wrote my post, but chose to not make the distinction. I think a valid categorization would be "open-minded" vs "closed-minded". And, from what I have seen on this board, the believers/non-believers/agnostics/undecided would populate both categories on a surprisingly equal basis. |
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Post by placid-void on Dec 5, 2015 21:55:10 GMT -5
I think a valid categorization would be "open-minded" vs "closed-minded". And, from what I have seen on this board, the believers/non-believers/agnostics/undecided would populate both categories on a surprisingly equal basis. |
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Post by withlove on Dec 6, 2015 3:04:33 GMT -5
My personal understanding is that an agnostic is a person that believes that there is knowledge and wisdom beyond the understanding of man. As SharonArnold has pointed out above: I "may learn something" participating in the conversations of these threads "that will change how I see things forever." I feel this same way, as a believer. I have hope that we can follow DD's rules, with some trial and error.  |
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2015 9:54:25 GMT -5
]DD, I am interested in your binary view of contributors to the search, believers & non-believers. Do you have a point of view about the possible contribution of agnostics to the search? Agnostic theists or agnostic atheists? An atheist lacks faith in God, believes there is no god, or lacks awareness of gods. An agnostic either believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a god or is noncommittal on the issue. An agnostic theist is an interesting position. |
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Post by rational on Dec 6, 2015 10:09:30 GMT -5
I had the same thought of "agnostic" vs "undecided" when I wrote my post, but chose to not make the distinction. Before you decide to box people a clear definition of the box would be helpful. In terms of a deity, I don't think belief is something a person can control. This week I was thinking about this question and, having no memory of ever believing in god, I realized that I could not even imagine what it woud be like to be a believer. I am sure that it is the same for a believer. This is not something that can be determined like which is the best model of car to buy. In the terms proving if there is or is not a god everyone is an agnostic (unless someone is holding back some very interesting verifiable evidence) and the characterization becomes meaningless. |
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Post by placid-void on Dec 6, 2015 11:15:52 GMT -5
Rational, you raise several subtle and interesting points. I need a little time to reflect on your points and hope to respond later today or tomorrow.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 7, 2015 19:34:10 GMT -5
So far it would appear that believers have had no more impressive God-experiences than agnostics. (Nobody has stepped up to the invitation in this thread.) Why believe, then?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2015 20:22:02 GMT -5
So far it would appear that believers have had no more impressive God-experiences than agnostics. (Nobody has stepped up to the invitation in this thread.) Why believe, then? In my experience, believers on the TMB tend to focus on/be more comfortable with posting about what they believe or what the bible says than posting about personal experiences with God. Also, in my experience, belief in God (at least among those born and raised within the 2x2 system) is something which is (first) taught with personal experiences with God only coming afterwards (if they come at all). It is worth remembering that the primary basis for the beliefs of most believers here is the bible rather than God and their understanding of God therefore tends to be based primarily on the character described in the bible rather than on personal experience with an entry which is wholly and completely separate from the bible. This may explain why many are more comfortable discussing the bible or their beliefs than they are sharing personal experiences. I did note that the one believer who has contributed here made a statement along the lines of .... If there is a God, it will turn out to be the God of the bible. I guess the key challenge for a believer who wishes to participate in a serious search for God is to try to begin to think of God outside of the constraints of the bible. Matt10 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 0:13:16 GMT -5
So far it would appear that believers have had no more impressive God-experiences than agnostics. (Nobody has stepped up to the invitation in this thread.) Why believe, then? you put conditions on our testimonies in your invitation not really appealing... |
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Post by Guest4 on Dec 8, 2015 5:04:00 GMT -5
I think that no matter who we are or what we believe , when we experience Love we are experiencing our Creator/G-D
We may have very personal experiences.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 8, 2015 6:10:42 GMT -5
I think that no matter who we are or what we believe , when we experience Love we are experiencing our Creator/G-D We may have very personal experiences. I agree, all love is from God. Because God is love. I believe the bible is teaching us how to be closer to him. And if we love him with all our hearts souls mind and strength then that love will pour out that we will show that love to all we meet. If we truly love God and give our heart to him then we will love our neighbour as ourselves because we will be guided by the spirit. Jesus said... This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends If we love God, then we will lay down our lives and bring this love of God to others and the love of God in our hearts, will overcome the sin inside. Because, he that is in his people is greater than he that is in the world! |
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2015 8:31:16 GMT -5
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends As noble as this sounds couldn't a suicide bomber claim that they were sacrificing their lives for the good of their friends? Twisted, perhaps, but consider a situation where your friends were being attacked by the heathens/infidels and you eliminate the them, and yourself, to save your friends. Is that demonstrating the 'greatest love'? |
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Post by Guest4 on Dec 8, 2015 10:16:42 GMT -5
As noble as this sounds couldn't a suicide bomber claim that they were sacrificing their lives for the good of their friends? Twisted, perhaps, but consider a situation where your friends were being attacked by the heathens/infidels and you eliminate the them, and yourself, to save your friends. Is that demonstrating the 'greatest love'? what is your take on this example? |
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Post by maryhig on Dec 8, 2015 10:25:12 GMT -5
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends As noble as this sounds couldn't a suicide bomber claim that they were sacrificing their lives for the good of their friends? Twisted, perhaps, but consider a situation where your friends were being attacked by the heathens/infidels and you eliminate the them, and yourself, to save your friends. Is that demonstrating the 'greatest love'? Hi rational! :-) Laying down your life doesn't mean mean dying naturally. It means death to self. Jesus said, when praying to God, not my will, but thy will be done. He laid down his life for God. And as we lay down our lives, we don't live to please ourselves but give our hearts to God, and Christ by the spirit can live through us, showing God to all around. By his death we are reconciled to God, but by his life we are saved! Jesus said in John 21 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me When we don't know God we live our lives to please ourselves, but when God has hold of our hearts we live to please him and die to the flesh. And by this death, we glorify God, because the spirit is changing our hearts and we show Christ in our lives. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 8, 2015 10:54:05 GMT -5
And now.... We have a change in the rules here. First belivers and atheists were to be excluded from participating, and now both are arguing from their belief/non-belief.
I think the ground rules were to share our personal experiences here in a search for God, not to use the bible to make our point as to why we believe as we do.
Our personal stories as to why we found/abandoned/changed our belief is what is allowed here I think. DD will let us know.
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2015 11:28:51 GMT -5
Hi rational! :-) Laying down your life doesn't mean mean dying naturally. It means death to self. I don't think you can support your claim. Laying down your life for friends means you would be willing to die for them. Death to self offers nothing to your friends so it could hardly be considered an act of love. |
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Post by maryhig on Dec 8, 2015 11:49:09 GMT -5
Hi rational! :-) Laying down your life doesn't mean mean dying naturally. It means death to self. I don't think you can support your claim. Laying down your life for friends means you would be willing to die for them. Death to self offers nothing to your friends so it could hardly be considered an act of love. Death to self offers the most important thing to all those around you. It offers them a chance to know the holy spirit of God, and Christ who dwells in the hearts of his people. Anyway, I think it looks to others like we're arguing and going off topic, so I won't discuss this here anymore. Even though me and you don't argue, we discuss :-D |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 8, 2015 13:43:02 GMT -5
And now.... We have a change in the rules here. First belivers and atheists were to be excluded from participating, and now both are arguing from their belief/non-belief. I think the ground rules were to share our personal experiences here in a search for God, not to use the bible to make our point as to why we believe as we do. Our personal stories as to why we found/abandoned/changed our belief is what is allowed here I think. DD will let us know. DD thinks love qualifies as a God-experience. However, I'd prefer to read personal experiences at this point. |
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Post by maryhig on Dec 8, 2015 13:56:36 GMT -5
And now.... We have a change in the rules here. First belivers and atheists were to be excluded from participating, and now both are arguing from their belief/non-belief. I think the ground rules were to share our personal experiences here in a search for God, not to use the bible to make our point as to why we believe as we do. Our personal stories as to why we found/abandoned/changed our belief is what is allowed here I think. DD will let us know. DD thinks love qualifies as a God-experience. However, I'd prefer to read personal experiences at this point. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail your thread! I have had experiences, a couple that have shocked me to the core. I've written one of them on here before a while ago, so I've just found it, and copied and pasted it here. I hope that's ok. All the rest is my copied post, I'll try and answer any questions. Ok this is one of the things that has happened to me, I've always had faith. But this one was more for my son but helped me also! Ok here goes, it's taken me lots of courage to write this. Because I know I'll probably be ridiculed! But anyway, I know in my heart I'm telling the truth! I've always had a strong faith in God, I haven't always gone to meetings though as I've said before, we've been allowed to choose whether to go or not, so I would go to the odd one, then not go for a while, and so it went on, but I've always had faith and prayed to God. Anyway. One afternoon my son was sitting on the sofa with me, just me and him. No one else there. He was 18 and very inquisitive. He asked me how is God everywhere? I said I don't know he just is, but him being young he never let up and carried on. Come on mum as if! God can't be everywhere at once? So he's listening to me now? I said yes! He looked at me in a puzzled way, and I could see him thinking about it. Anyway I carried on the rest of my day as normal and forgot our conversation. Later that evening I went to the meeting, my son came with me. I've said about my uncle before. He was a strong man of God. And he could talk for hours without even opening the Bible. It would just all flow out of him. He was amazing to hear, and he was a very humble man! Anyway we were all sitting down and he was reading a passage from the bible. When all of a sudden he stopped, looked up and pointed to my son and said "good question, how is God everywhere?" my son sat bolt upright, neither of us had mentioned it to anyone else and had both forgotten about our conversation! The rest of the meeting were looking at each other asking what was going on, and that no one had asked that! Anyway he then turned to my son and said this. Can you see a satellite? My son said no! My uncle then said yet it is there, and it's always sending out a signal. But unless you have a receiver (television) to receive the signal then you won't be able to see the picture. He said every house can receive and show a different picture. He said the receiver is like your heart. God is everywhere, but you have to receive him. If you don't have the right heart, you won't see him and you won't see the whole picture and you won't be able to live it out and show that picture to others! That is how God is everywhere! Then he just carried on reading and talking about the chapter he was reading, as if my son had just asked him! We hadn't said a word. I asked my son had he mentioned it to anyone, he said no, he hadn't spoken a word about what we had discussed! We were amazed! God has heard my son! My uncle used to tell us that the people of God are like pictures, he said about the proverb, apples of gold in pictures of silver. He said the apples of Gold is fruit from God, it's revelation in the heart it's like gold it's priceless! And God's people are the pictures of silver! Because they're showing the world a picture of God if we live right! I never understood this, when I was younger, but I do now! Because I've seen God in my own heart! |
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Post by rational on Dec 8, 2015 15:27:04 GMT -5
And now.... We have a change in the rules here. First belivers and atheists were to be excluded from participating, and now both are arguing from their belief/non-belief. The claim was made that when you experience love you experience god. The discussion with maryhig has nothing to do with a belief in god but rather a way to identify god. Someone expressed the idea that experiencing love was experiencing god. My personal experience is why I have yet to change my belief in god. My personal story is that experiencing love had not provided insight to god nor any hint that what I had experienced existed outside of my being. |
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Post by jondough on Dec 8, 2015 20:54:43 GMT -5
I also thought we believers were not wanted here. When I posted, I was asked if "I was sure I should be here".
I do have a personal experience. Was leading a very destructive life in many ways. Never thought I could be a Christian. It looked like an impossible life for me.
One night in my room, a very real voice - so real it might as well had been audible told me that I was at the crossroads of life. Either I made the decision right then and there to take one road or the other. What ever decision I made would be final. I had never prayed before in my life until that night I dropped to my knees. I have never since, had a God experience as real as that night. It was totally unexpected, and came out of no-where.
I made the decision to go down the different road than I was on. I am learning still today what that road entails.
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Post by placid-void on Dec 10, 2015 10:51:38 GMT -5
Good morning everyone.
Rational, I apologize for not responding more promptly as promised, life intervened.
I have reflected on your two posts of 12/6 and reconsidered my thoughts as I read them. I have concluded that my responses would distract from the flow of these threads and add little to the substance of the conversation. Perhaps some other time the opportunity will arise for us to discuss your perspectives. Thanks for being patient with this anti-climatic response.
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Post by bubbles on Dec 13, 2015 6:00:05 GMT -5
Some great examples of feeling the touch of God already in the first thread! I know that most people have already settled upon an explanation for their God-experiences. Will believers be of any more help in an objective search than those who have already decided there is nothing beyond materialism? In other words, are any of us capable of taking a step back to describe our religious or spiritual experiences without postulating about their cause, or are our particular set of beliefs so integrated into our experiences that we cannot participate open-mindedly? I doubt anyone seriously imagines their religion is the only one that offers comfort/awe/Spirit-bathing/etc., so I'm talking about the difference between saying "I prayed to Jesus and he heard me and sent an angel to strengthen me" and "I fell to my knees in prayer and immediately a feeling of calmness came over me." So, an open invitation: Any believers who will share experiences in objective terms, or any disbelievers who have God-like mysteries they haven't yet explained? Thought provoking questions diet. Im asking myself do I have an agenda? The difference in the two statements you make. Clearly prayer comforts people. They could be the same experience just described differently. Im too super spiritual to answer objectively...  |
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