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Post by Ed on Sept 18, 2015 12:26:53 GMT -5
This is a favorite phrase for many who want to control the sheep of God. How much time did Christ spend telling people to obey? Think about it.
True saving faith is inevitably followed by works of obedience, which verify our faith. So maybe we are saved by obedience? Not a chance. Ps 130:3 If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? The answer is no one, because no one can be obedient enough.
1 Sam 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”
This is a common verse among leaders who promote submission to their authority but this verse is found only in the old testament; it’s not repeated in the new. Important concepts are typically repeated, e.g. Deut 6:5 and Matt 22:37. It isn’t repeated because Christians are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14-15
Please don’t misunderstand, obedience is important but Jesus is the only one who has ever made it to heaven by works of obedience. The roll call in Heb 11 of people who are in heaven is a list of people justified by faith not by obedience. That is a different gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of obedience, instead, it is a gospel of grace. Acts 20:24
The gospel of obedience can be deceptively attractive.
“There is nothing that gives a more spuriously clean conscience than following rules, even with a total lack of real faith and charity.” -C.S. Lewis
Yes, God does want us to be obedient to his Word but he cares about our motives. People are obedient for different reasons. It is possible to obey because of fear of hell. It is possible to obey because we think that’s what God wants. It is possible to obey because we love God. Which do you think a God who likes to be called “Father” would prefer?
God commands us to love Him but how can we love a God who only loves us if we are obedient? Is this how your parents treated you? If so, you’ve had a hard life.
Christians love and worship God because he has first loved us, not because we are something special (honest heart, etc) but in spite of our deadly sin infection. Eph 2:1 This Gospel represents unmerited favor and it requires faith to believe in such a God. Fortunately, God is the giver of every good gift and our faith and salvation are attributed to him alone as a free gift. Rom 5:15-16, 18
Rom 5:7-9 “For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him”.
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law”. Rom 3:28
The righteousness of God can be ours! And it is through faith alone in the blood of Jesus Christ. This is truly good news because no one can be justified by obedience. Faith in His blood is better than obedience.
"God's mercy is so great that it forgives great sins to great sinners, after great lengths of time, and then gives great favors and great privileges, and raises us up to great enjoyments in the great heaven of the great God. It is undeserved mercy, as indeed all true mercy must be, for deserved mercy is only a misnomer for justice." -Charles Spurgeon
Mercy triumphs over judgment. Jam 2:13b
My hope and confidence are in the blood of Jesus Christ, shed to justify the ungodly, and in the New Covenant proclaimed in his Word. What are you trusting in?
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Post by howitis on Sept 18, 2015 12:47:02 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts here Ed, I like your last paragraph...'My hope and confidence are in the blood of Jesus Christ, shed to justify the ungodly, and in the New Covenant proclaimed in his Word. What are you trusting in?' Jesus blood was sacrifice......so perhaps our obedience must come first.......?
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Post by howitis on Sept 18, 2015 13:25:02 GMT -5
Still thinking about this...... Jesus was the supreme sacrifice, can't help but think we're left with obedience!
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2015 14:15:53 GMT -5
How well I remember the many times the workers stressed the importance of obedience without questioning their authority. However, when you read through the New Testament, you find an entirely different picture regarding the "shepherds over the flock" in the advice given by the apostles. I'm reminded of what Peter said about this in 1 Peter 5:3 and also what Jesus said directly to his disciples in Matthew 20:25, as shown below. biblehub.com/matthew/20-25.htm Matthew 20:25 What Jesus had to say about authority figures.
biblehub.com/1_peter/5-3.htm I Peter 5:3 ~ What Peter had to say about "lording it over the flock."
biblehub.com/2_corinthians/1-24.htm 2 Corinthians 1:24 ~ What Paul had to say about lording it over one's faith.
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Post by fixit on Sept 18, 2015 14:19:55 GMT -5
Please don’t misunderstand, obedience is important but Jesus is the only one who has ever made it to heaven by works of obedience. The roll call in Heb 11 of people who are in heaven is a list of people justified by faith not by obedience. That is a different gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of obedience, instead, it is a gospel of grace. Acts 20:24 (Underlining mine) I agree that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of grace. Is it not a gospel of obedience as well? Why do you think it's an either/or situation? Can you not see obedience at work even in the verse you quoted? Acts 20:22 “And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.
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Post by fixit on Sept 18, 2015 14:27:10 GMT -5
How well I remember the many times the workers stressed the importance of obedience without questioning their authority. However, when you read through the New Testament, you find an entirely different picture regarding the "shepherds over the flock" in the advice given by the apostles. I'm reminded of what Peter said about this in 1 Peter 5:3 and also what Jesus said directly to his disciples in Matthew 20:25, as shown below. biblehub.com/matthew/20-25.htm Matthew 20:25 What Jesus had to say about authority figures.
biblehub.com/1_peter/5-3.htm I Peter 5:3 ~ What Peter had to say about "lording it over the flock."
Good verses Faune. We should obey God. When the Lord is our shepherd we shall not want. Proverbs 29:Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe. 26 Many seek an audience with a ruler, but it is from the Lord that one gets justice.
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2015 14:29:18 GMT -5
Please don’t misunderstand, obedience is important but Jesus is the only one who has ever made it to heaven by works of obedience. The roll call in Heb 11 of people who are in heaven is a list of people justified by faith not by obedience. That is a different gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of obedience, instead, it is a gospel of grace. Acts 20:24 (Underlining mine) I agree that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of grace. I disagree that it's not a gospel of obedience. Why do you think it's an either/or situation? Can you not see obedience at work even in the verse you quoted? Acts 20:22 “And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace. Fixit ~ I believe what Ed was trying to bring out was that obedience was a by-product of our faith out of gratitude for God's grace towards us? We do not earn salvation through our obedience to leaders. It's a free gift and there's nothing we can do to earn it. Also, leaders are to be examples to the flock, not "lord it over" the flock. When you read about the Pharisees in Matthew 23, it becomes pretty clear what these leaders were doing to the flock that got Jesus' attention. They were not concerned with the welfare of their flock, but more with their power and control over them, which brought Jesus' rebuke of their practices. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23 Matthew 23 ~
Pharisees as "rule keepers" and "taskmasters."
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Post by fixit on Sept 18, 2015 15:01:47 GMT -5
Faith and works go together...
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Post by rational on Sept 18, 2015 15:08:02 GMT -5
People are obedient for different reasons. It is possible to obey because of fear of hell. It is possible to obey because we think that’s what God wants. Aren't these one and the same?Don't do what god wants and end up in hell. Why is fearing hell as a reason for following the rules considered a negative?
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Post by LouiseKeating on Sept 18, 2015 19:03:49 GMT -5
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
i love these words -- lots wont even obey a pedestrian traffic signal these days
and where we Gods people once came from walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience
and is this a picture of our times? But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away.
yes --- from such people turn away
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 18, 2015 20:02:57 GMT -5
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. i love these words -- lots wont even obey a pedestrian traffic signal these days and where we Gods people once came from walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience and is this a picture of our times?But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away. yes --- from such people turn away I am often amazed at how people see the present times as a prophecy the "last days" & "perilous times," -when history shows so many (if not most) past eras have been horribly worst than present times!
Our consideration of human rights, our advancement in health issues have never been as great as they are now!
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Post by LouiseKeating on Sept 18, 2015 20:08:25 GMT -5
when the bible talks about last times it isnt interested in wars or health or the environment it is concerned for peoples love of God things dont really improve in the world they just change --- we eat better but now we have massive increase in obesity and diabetes 2 we have fewer wars now but when we do they are so much bigger
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 18, 2015 20:36:48 GMT -5
when the bible talks about last times it isnt interested in wars or health or the environment, it is concerned for peoples love of Godthings dont really improve in the world they just change --- we eat better but now we have massive increase in obesity and diabetes 2 we have fewer wars now but when we do they are so much bigger It is still about how people ACT according to their perceived "love of God," as well as which god they love an any given time in the history of mankind.
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Post by LouiseKeating on Sept 18, 2015 20:38:18 GMT -5
the bible isnt interested in the gods of this world --- it never was we have to act as jesus acted === he is our example, or should be
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Post by fixit on Sept 18, 2015 21:07:50 GMT -5
the bible isnt interested in the gods of this world --- it never was we have to act as jesus acted === he is our example, or should be Jesus left an interesting example in what to do about the corruption of religious leaders...
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 18, 2015 21:11:16 GMT -5
the bible isnt interested in the gods of this world --- it never was we have to act as jesus acted === he is our example, or should be OK.
If you don't want to pay any attention to all the gods of the world & time, -do you want to consider the bible as the moral standard of behavior?
It advocated such acts as these, genocide, slavery, making women property, stoning people etc,.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 19, 2015 16:48:34 GMT -5
This is a favorite phrase for many who want to control the sheep of God. How much time did Christ spend telling people to obey? Think about it. True saving faith is inevitably followed by works of obedience, which verify our faith. So maybe we are saved by obedience? Not a chance. Ps 130:3 If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? The answer is no one, because no one can be obedient enough. 1 Sam 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.” This is a common verse among leaders who promote submission to their authority but this verse is found only in the old testament; it’s not repeated in the new. Important concepts are typically repeated, e.g. Deut 6:5 and Matt 22:37. It isn’t repeated because Christians are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14-15 Please don’t misunderstand, obedience is important but Jesus is the only one who has ever made it to heaven by works of obedience. The roll call in Heb 11 of people who are in heaven is a list of people justified by faith not by obedience. That is a different gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of obedience, instead, it is a gospel of grace. Acts 20:24 The gospel of obedience can be deceptively attractive. “There is nothing that gives a more spuriously clean conscience than following rules, even with a total lack of real faith and charity.” -C.S. Lewis Yes, God does want us to be obedient to his Word but he cares about our motives. People are obedient for different reasons. It is possible to obey because of fear of hell. It is possible to obey because we think that’s what God wants. It is possible to obey because we love God. Which do you think a God who likes to be called “Father” would prefer? God commands us to love Him but how can we love a God who only loves us if we are obedient? Is this how your parents treated you? If so, you’ve had a hard life. Christians love and worship God because he has first loved us, not because we are something special (honest heart, etc) but in spite of our deadly sin infection. Eph 2:1 This Gospel represents unmerited favor and it requires faith to believe in such a God. Fortunately, God is the giver of every good gift and our faith and salvation are attributed to him alone as a free gift. Rom 5:15-16, 18 Rom 5:7-9 “For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him”. “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law”. Rom 3:28 The righteousness of God can be ours! And it is through faith alone in the blood of Jesus Christ. This is truly good news because no one can be justified by obedience. Faith in His blood is better than obedience. "God's mercy is so great that it forgives great sins to great sinners, after great lengths of time, and then gives great favors and great privileges, and raises us up to great enjoyments in the great heaven of the great God. It is undeserved mercy, as indeed all true mercy must be, for deserved mercy is only a misnomer for justice." -Charles Spurgeon Mercy triumphs over judgment. Jam 2:13b My hope and confidence are in the blood of Jesus Christ, shed to justify the ungodly, and in the New Covenant proclaimed in his Word. What are you trusting in? My trust and faith is in the power of my god. I also strongly believe that mercy triumphs over judgement. Mainly through what I have seen working with people. Love the spurgeon quote. Obedience can mean many things. As believers loving and serving our god sometimes we think sacrifice is better. It isnt the case. Experientially the difference can be enlightening.
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Post by howitis on Sept 19, 2015 16:54:17 GMT -5
The bible simply says obedience is better than sacrifice (or sometimes more to be desired), I don't feel that one negates the other, just that one is 'better', both have a place and part in our service to God.
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Post by fred on Sept 19, 2015 17:32:25 GMT -5
The bible simply says obedience is better than sacrifice (or sometimes more to be desired), I don't feel that one negates the other, just that one is 'better', both have a place and part in our service to God. And what is sacrifice? If I go without something in order to serve another, and my motivation is love and compassion, is that a sacrifice?
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Post by howitis on Sept 19, 2015 17:53:09 GMT -5
Guess you have to work it out fred, some may say you're playing 'martyr'.
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Post by Ed on Sept 19, 2015 21:34:44 GMT -5
Thank you.
Here's Leslie White's reply; "I agree and have for many years. Faith without works is dead. Also works without faith is dead. We need to keep it simple."
The Bible doesn't say works without faith is dead. Jesus said a good tree can't bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit. Yet I'm confident Leslie would judge me as lost simply because I don't attend meetings.
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Post by howitis on Sept 19, 2015 21:57:31 GMT -5
Not sure who Lesley White is, a worker I guess, but to me its not his judgement you need to worry about. 'Other sheep I have, who are not of this fold, them also I must bring....', so to me the 'fold' is not complete, there are those within who are unfruitful, those without who are clearly destined for the 'fold', but are not within......Gods call.....no one else's!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 22:47:31 GMT -5
This is a favorite phrase for many who want to control the sheep of God. How much time did Christ spend telling people to obey? Think about it. True saving faith is inevitably followed by works of obedience, which verify our faith. So maybe we are saved by obedience? Not a chance. Ps 130:3 If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? The answer is no one, because no one can be obedient enough. 1 Sam 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.” This is a common verse among leaders who promote submission to their authority but this verse is found only in the old testament; it’s not repeated in the new. Important concepts are typically repeated, e.g. Deut 6:5 and Matt 22:37. It isn’t repeated because Christians are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14-15 Please don’t misunderstand, obedience is important but Jesus is the only one who has ever made it to heaven by works of obedience. The roll call in Heb 11 of people who are in heaven is a list of people justified by faith not by obedience. That is a different gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of obedience, instead, it is a gospel of grace. Acts 20:24 The gospel of obedience can be deceptively attractive. “There is nothing that gives a more spuriously clean conscience than following rules, even with a total lack of real faith and charity.” -C.S. Lewis Yes, God does want us to be obedient to his Word but he cares about our motives. People are obedient for different reasons. It is possible to obey because of fear of hell. It is possible to obey because we think that’s what God wants. It is possible to obey because we love God. Which do you think a God who likes to be called “Father” would prefer? God commands us to love Him but how can we love a God who only loves us if we are obedient? Is this how your parents treated you? If so, you’ve had a hard life. Christians love and worship God because he has first loved us, not because we are something special (honest heart, etc) but in spite of our deadly sin infection. Eph 2:1 This Gospel represents unmerited favor and it requires faith to believe in such a God. Fortunately, God is the giver of every good gift and our faith and salvation are attributed to him alone as a free gift. Rom 5:15-16, 18 Rom 5:7-9 “For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him”. “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law”. Rom 3:28 The righteousness of God can be ours! And it is through faith alone in the blood of Jesus Christ. This is truly good news because no one can be justified by obedience. Faith in His blood is better than obedience. "God's mercy is so great that it forgives great sins to great sinners, after great lengths of time, and then gives great favors and great privileges, and raises us up to great enjoyments in the great heaven of the great God. It is undeserved mercy, as indeed all true mercy must be, for deserved mercy is only a misnomer for justice." -Charles Spurgeon Mercy triumphs over judgment. Jam 2:13b My hope and confidence are in the blood of Jesus Christ, shed to justify the ungodly, and in the New Covenant proclaimed in his Word. What are you trusting in? I think you are confusing obedience to workers with obedience to God. are you not being obedient to God when you believe in Jesus Christ like he asked us to do?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Sept 19, 2015 23:50:55 GMT -5
I think you are confusing obedience to workers with obedience to God. are you not being obedient to God when you believe in Jesus Christ like he asked us to do? While professing, and as a worker, I of course heard numerous exhortations to obedience (and I suppose I spoke on it at times), but it never occurred to me that workers were telling me or anyone else to obey them, the workers. And I certainly never had it in mind when I spoke on it! Confrontation by and obedience to the word of God is a constant theme of both the old and new testaments. Law reveals man's inability to obey; grace enables obedience. I certainly do not claim more than a faulty, hesitating, partial obedience, but I shudder to think of life without the confrontation of God's word bringing into question every thought, every word, every action, bringing the possibility of obedience and blessing. .
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2015 3:17:20 GMT -5
The bible simply says obedience is better than sacrifice (or sometimes more to be desired), I don't feel that one negates the other, just that one is 'better', both have a place and part in our service to God. And what is sacrifice? If I go without something in order to serve another, and my motivation is love and compassion, is that a sacrifice? Well, I'm not too interested in what other people might think. Take your own close family for example. Quite often I have to change my plans, have an economic impact, toil long hours in order to help my children or grandchildren. I do this without giving it a second thought, not grudgingly as I love my family and count it a joy to do. I do not in any way perceive this to be a sacrifice, and what others may think or say is not my business. I believe God wishes us to behave the same way to any who cross our path in life. I would hazard a guess that you feel the same way.
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Post by howitis on Sept 20, 2015 3:54:44 GMT -5
Well that's good then fred, and as obedience is better than sacrifice, I guess through that God leads you to what your sacrifice is
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Post by Ed on Sept 21, 2015 8:18:38 GMT -5
I think you are confusing obedience to workers with obedience to God. are you not being obedient to God when you believe in Jesus Christ like he asked us to do? While professing, and as a worker, I of course heard numerous exhortations to obedience (and I suppose I spoke on it at times), but it never occurred to me that workers were telling me or anyone else to obey them, the workers. And I certainly never had it in mind when I spoke on it! Confrontation by and obedience to the word of God is a constant theme of both the old and new testaments. Law reveals man's inability to obey; grace enables obedience. I certainly do not claim more than a faulty, hesitating, partial obedience, but I shudder to think of life without the confrontation of God's word bringing into question every thought, every word, every action, bringing the possibility of obedience and blessing. . Thanks for your reply Alan. Obedience is a great springboard to the Gospel. I like what you wrote, "Law reveals man's inability to obey; grace enables obedience". While professing, I believed I was being obedient because I believed and did everything the workers preached. I went to all the meetings and "took part" in every one, etc, etc. I took it all in even believing outsiders were bound for hell. What came first, the chicken or the egg? The chicken, of course! Grace preceded obedience, even partial obedience.
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Post by xna on Sept 21, 2015 10:29:06 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of this ...
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