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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 1:42:37 GMT -5
The other day, someone wrote something in a post that shocked me a bit. And is been on my mind. They said that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I have never heard anything like this before. And I don't understand why God would take his wrath out on a completely innocent man, his holy son, when he was doing Gods will.
Can someone who believes this, please explain what they mean by this and what it says in the scriptures? I've got no one else to ask, as I don't really know anyone around me who believes this.
Thank you beforehand
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:50:26 GMT -5
The other day, someone wrote something in a post that shocked me a bit. And is been on my mind. They said that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I have never heard anything like this before. And I don't understand why God would take his wrath out on a completely innocent man, his holy son, when he was doing Gods will. Can someone who believes this, please explain what they mean by this and what it says in the scriptures? I've got no one else to ask, as I don't really know anyone around me who believes this. Thank you beforehand My God my God why hast though forsaken me if He hadn't He would have taken it out on man and then none of us would have been here
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 1:57:50 GMT -5
The other day, someone wrote something in a post that shocked me a bit. And is been on my mind. They said that God took his wrath out on Jesus. I have never heard anything like this before. And I don't understand why God would take his wrath out on a completely innocent man, his holy son, when he was doing Gods will. Can someone who believes this, please explain what they mean by this and what it says in the scriptures? I've got no one else to ask, as I don't really know anyone around me who believes this. Thank you beforehand My God my God why hast though forsaken me if He hadn't He would have taken it out on man and then none of us would have been here Thank you Virgo for answering, But I don't believe God did forsake him. He was always with Jesus. God sent an angel and strengthened Jesus before he went in the cross. I believe that that Jesus saying that, would only be in reference to the 22 psalm, and the Jews that murdered Jesus would have known that psalm. So they would have realised it was him it was about. Also another reason I know God didn't forsake Jesus is because just before Jesus died. He said father into your hands I commend my spirit, He was speaking to God because God was with him. So God didn't forsake Jesus. He would never leave him nor forsake him!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:57:30 GMT -5
My God my God why hast though forsaken me if He hadn't He would have taken it out on man and then none of us would have been here Thank you Virgo for answering, But I don't believe God did forsake him. He was always with Jesus. God sent an angel and strengthened Jesus before he went in the cross. I believe that that Jesus saying that, would only be in reference to the 22 psalm, and the Jews that murdered Jesus would have known that psalm. So they would have realised it was him it was about. Also another reason I know God didn't forsake Jesus is because just before Jesus died. He said father into your hands I commend my spirit, He was speaking to God because God was with him. So God didn't forsake Jesus. He would never leave him nor forsake him! Matt 27 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I can only go by what i read in the Bible
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 3:10:58 GMT -5
Thank you Virgo for answering, But I don't believe God did forsake him. He was always with Jesus. God sent an angel and strengthened Jesus before he went in the cross. I believe that that Jesus saying that, would only be in reference to the 22 psalm, and the Jews that murdered Jesus would have known that psalm. So they would have realised it was him it was about. Also another reason I know God didn't forsake Jesus is because just before Jesus died. He said father into your hands I commend my spirit, He was speaking to God because God was with him. So God didn't forsake Jesus. He would never leave him nor forsake him! Matt 27 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I can only go by what i read in the Bible Ok we'll have to agree to disagree on that, because i truly can't see God who is ever loving forsaking Jesus as he's dying, when it's the time he needed him most, when he had never sinned, I believe he would have been strengthening him. It doesn't make sense to me. Thanks for explaining what you believe though. Is that the only scripture that people read that they believe points to God taking his wrath out on Jesus that you know of, or is the there more? Thanks again If I don't reply straight away it's because I'm getting ready for the meeting. Thanks though
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Post by Admin on Jul 5, 2015 7:05:57 GMT -5
My God my God why hast though forsaken me if He hadn't He would have taken it out on man and then none of us would have been here It is a very good question, and I'm impressed with your answer virgo.
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Post by Admin on Jul 5, 2015 7:11:24 GMT -5
Some food for thought on the wrath of God. www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr5eUvGsSY0At about the 40 min mark, the preacher says the wrath of God is "why we have the cross of Christ. Because we'll not understand the cross of Christ until we understand the wrath of God".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 7:11:54 GMT -5
Hi Mary, Well, if you don't believe that God turned away from Jesus and as a result he died both a physical and spiritual death, then unfortunately you don't believe Jesus died for your sins, or that he took your place, or that he took your and everyone else's guilt upon himself, and took our punishment upon himself, so that you could be blameless and thereby worthy and saved. This unfortunately is the gospel story and the foundation of Christianity. It's rather weird. Turning the truth that you are guilty and Jesus is innocent, into you are innocent and Jesus is guilty. But then after the charade, God brushes that all aside and justifiably raises him up from the dead because the first part was all ridiculous anyway, although at least it put an end to animal sacrifices and scapegoats, Jesus being the last and ultimate one. Sorry to have to put it so bluntly. I think though that you are in the vanguard of those who will rewrite Christianity's precepts, and straighten this lie out.
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Post by Admin on Jul 5, 2015 8:18:48 GMT -5
Is that the only scripture that people read that they believe points to God taking his wrath out on Jesus that you know of, or is the there more? Mary, there are lots of verses and I'm sure others will provide some. Many of those verses throughout scripture (OT and NT including words of Jesus) have to do with drinking from the cup of God's wrath or God's judgement. There are 4 cups in the Passover tradition, which we know that Jesus celebrated. The themes of judgment and salvation that are woven together in the Passover story are somehow embodied in the imagery of the cups. E.g. Jer. 25:15, Matthew 20:22, Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42, Rev. 14:10. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us" and Galatians 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us". Even among F&W it will be interesting to see the range of beliefs about the cross and wrath and redemption. Bottom line, it's all about God's amazing love for you and me: My Lord, what love is this That pays so dearly That I, the guilty one May go free! Amazing love, O what sacrifice The Son of God given for me My debt he pays, and my death he dies That I might live, that I might live www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lla89XoyBE
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 5, 2015 9:13:18 GMT -5
Thanks for your good question. For myself, the thought of Jesus being our "propitiation" , answers that question. God, being a JUST God, cannot simply overlook sin. Christ , the ONLY sinless one took our sins , ,and became the propitiation for us. Our "justification" for sin, cost Jesus His life. I think, years ago , that after a person was executed for a crime, the understanding was that the crime (sin) was now "justified", and the law was fulfilled. Alvin Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. What is propitiation? Answer: The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him. The necessity of appeasing God is something many religions have in common. In ancient pagan religions, as well as in many religions today, the idea is taught that man appeases God by offering various gifts or sacrifices. However, the Bible teaches that God Himself has provided the only means through which His wrath can be appeased and sinful man can be reconciled to Him. In the New Testament, the act of propitiation always refers to the work of God and not the sacrifices or gifts offered by man. The reason for this is that man is totally incapable of satisfying God’s justice except by spending eternity in hell. There is no service, sacrifice or gift that man can offer that will appease the holy wrath of God or satisfy His perfect justice. The only satisfaction, or propitiation, that could be acceptable to God and that could reconcile man to Him, had to be made by God. For this reason God the Son, Jesus Christ, came into the world in human flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin and make atonement or “propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17). The word propitiation is used in several key verses to explain what Jesus accomplished through His death on the cross. For example, in Romans 3:24-25 we see that believers in Christ have been “justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed." These verses are a key point in Paul’s argument in the Book of Romans and are really at the heart of the Gospel message. In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul has made the argument that everybody, both Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the atonement or payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice, foretold in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament, that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s perfect life, His death on the cross, and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a Holy God. The wonderful truth of the Gospel message is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). The only way for God’s wrath against sinful man to be appeased and for us to be reconciled to God is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way. This truth is also communicated in 1 John 2:2; “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” An important part of Christ’s saving work includes deliverance from God’s wrath that the unbelieving sinner is under, because Jesus’ atonement on the cross is the only thing that can turn away God’s divine wrath. Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation. They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment (Romans 2:5). There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins Read more: www.gotquestions.org/propitiation.html#ixzz3f7Xl911Z
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 5, 2015 10:28:16 GMT -5
Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, points to this also 4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
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Post by jondough on Jul 5, 2015 11:37:44 GMT -5
I see this just a little differently than many of you, and can see where Mary is coming from;
Think of it like this. Your little brother just prior to church goes out and gets filthy dirty. Big brother sees him, and knows Dad and Mom are going to be furious. Big brother cleans him up quickly with his own clothing - which are perfectly clean. Mom and Dad take little brother to church, but have to leave big brother behind because he is left filthy (they know why). They are not angry with big brother for cleansing little bro, and their anger for little bro is gone because he is perfectly clean by the time they see him. Big bro feels left behind as he has never been separated like this - ever.
Again, the main point is, I don't believe God's wrath was on Jesus, although Jesus suffered and took upon himself our dirtiness in order to save us from God's wrath. God knew what Jesus did for us. God could not be a part of this dirtiness is why he had to separate himself from his own son. But it was the only way we could be clean.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 5, 2015 12:25:56 GMT -5
Appreciate each one's thoughts. No analogy is perfect . Charles Prices shared one, that went along these lines. You are driving along , too fast, and you get a ticket for speeding. You stand before the judge, and because he is a JUST judge, and the law states there is a fine for speeding , he can't just say , well , you were not speeding really, etc. , we just forget about it, and let you go. The problem is , you were speeding, and there is a fine for that, BUT you as the guilty one, do not have the finanaces or the means to pay the fine, and the judge is a just judge and can't just ignore it , and the law needs to be upheld. At a standstill, a third party steps in, with the resources and ability to pay the fine for me , and the just judge accepts payment from , the third party, the fine is paid and the law upheld. The verdict, Alvin Kroeker, GUILTY, - FINE- $100 dollars- PAID in full, by a third party , and I am FREE . Alvin
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 14:48:15 GMT -5
Thanks for your good question. For myself, the thought of Jesus being our "propitiation" , answers that question. God, being a JUST God, cannot simply overlook sin. Christ , the ONLY sinless one took our sins , ,and became the propitiation for us. Our "justification" for sin, cost Jesus His life. I think, years ago , that after a person was executed for a crime, the understanding was that the crime (sin) was now "justified", and the law was fulfilled. Alvin Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. What is propitiation? Answer: The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him. The necessity of appeasing God is something many religions have in common. In ancient pagan religions, as well as in many religions today, the idea is taught that man appeases God by offering various gifts or sacrifices. However, the Bible teaches that God Himself has provided the only means through which His wrath can be appeased and sinful man can be reconciled to Him. In the New Testament, the act of propitiation always refers to the work of God and not the sacrifices or gifts offered by man. The reason for this is that man is totally incapable of satisfying God’s justice except by spending eternity in hell. There is no service, sacrifice or gift that man can offer that will appease the holy wrath of God or satisfy His perfect justice. The only satisfaction, or propitiation, that could be acceptable to God and that could reconcile man to Him, had to be made by God. For this reason God the Son, Jesus Christ, came into the world in human flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin and make atonement or “propitiation for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2:17). The word propitiation is used in several key verses to explain what Jesus accomplished through His death on the cross. For example, in Romans 3:24-25 we see that believers in Christ have been “justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed." These verses are a key point in Paul’s argument in the Book of Romans and are really at the heart of the Gospel message. In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul has made the argument that everybody, both Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the atonement or payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice, foretold in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament, that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s perfect life, His death on the cross, and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a Holy God. The wonderful truth of the Gospel message is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). The only way for God’s wrath against sinful man to be appeased and for us to be reconciled to God is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way. This truth is also communicated in 1 John 2:2; “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” An important part of Christ’s saving work includes deliverance from God’s wrath that the unbelieving sinner is under, because Jesus’ atonement on the cross is the only thing that can turn away God’s divine wrath. Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation. They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment (Romans 2:5). There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins Read more: www.gotquestions.org/propitiation.html#ixzz3f7Xl911ZThank you all for your answers, I'll go through them one by one and read them, it may take me a while. Either way I believe God knows the sincerity of our hearts and we need to be denying ourselves and loving God with all our hearts. And giving him a clean heart to enter and do his work through I from the bits I have read through I noticed Alvin that you said there is no gift or sacrifice that man can offer to appease God. But there is! and I don't see it as appeasing I God, but pleasing God. We can sacrifice our lives, by giving up the works of the world and flesh. And following Jesus denying Satan and enduring to the end. Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. I haven't read your whole post yet Alvin, but I will. Thank you all for replying. It will take me a while and go through everyone's posts and read the scriptures but my heart tells me God wouldn't want his innocent son sacrificed for our guilt and make him guilty when he's innocent? It makes no sense to me. I see the scripture saying about Jesus being made sin for us meaning he came into sinful flesh and he suffered the sins of the flesh denying them and denied Satan completely putting the flesh and the world to death ( death to self) within him thus Satan never lived at all the heart of Jesus so he overcame Satan and suffered right to the end of his life, even the death on the cross showing Gods holy love and mercy from his heart to everyone, he was perfect and poured out love even to his persecutors! My mum said a good thing yesterday, she said that Jesus' heart was so full of love, that when he asked God to forgive them he was so pure and innocent he had already forgiven them himself. Even whilst dying on the cross! But God does have wrath, although its not to his people that follow him and do what's right, it's to his people that know him and deny him and do wrong and purposely sin. When they know what's right and wrong and go against God. Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, And Gods wrath doesn't come upon the innocent and Jesus was innocent, we will suffer like everyone does in this world, because Satan is here. But Christ will give us strength to overcome him, if we believe and keep our faith. God said "Behold this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased!" Not this is my sinful son whom needs crucified. God wanted him to live, but he knew Satan would put him to death and prophesied this though his prophets in the OT. And Jesus was willing to go through it because he wanted to show us how to live to bring us back to God, because he loves us and the teachers before him had gone wrong! It says at the end of acts 3 Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Jesus came to show us how to live and turn us from our iniquities Jesus says in John 18 why he came into the world and he didn't say it was to be crucified for sins To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Jesus came to bring us the truth, and that truth was in his life and in his words. Not his death on the cross. Anyway I'll read through your posts over the next day or so, between my hectic life of being a wife mum and Nana. Thank you all again for giving up your time to answer me
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 14:57:27 GMT -5
First of all, if God made everything why would he be happy with us denying what he made for us, the world and flesh?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 15:26:16 GMT -5
First of all, if God made everything why would he be happy with us denying what he made for us, the world and flesh? Because we sin, and he wants us to allow Christ and let the holy spirit into our hearts and show us our sins and help clean our hearts. God wants our hearts clean so we can be brought back to him, and then we can be used to bring him to others. The thing I believe is, that we're here for a test. And Satan is here to test us. He's a stumblingblock. And he'll do anything he can to try and separate us from God he's a liar and has been from the beginning. But we have to keep our faith in God and endure to the end of our lives to be saved. I feel we must have done something to be put into this sinful flesh, and the only way back to God is denying the world and fleshly sins that Satan brings into our hearts. And the way to overcome him is through the strength of Christ and by allowing the holy spirit into our heart. And following Jesus. Because he showed us the way, and narrow is way to life, but broad is the way to destruction. And the broad way is following the world and living to please ourselves not God!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 15:29:51 GMT -5
First of all, if God made everything why would he be happy with us denying what he made for us, the world and flesh? God made the world and the flesh human bodies so we can live on the earth. Humans bodies are meant to be temporary dwelling place.... BUT for us humans to live in heaven and be with God, we must be born again by the Spirit of God. We need heavenly resurrection bodies to live in heaven/kingdom of God. Jesus explained this in John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
Human body/flesh and blood can't inheret/live in the kingdom of God. Just like Human bodies can't go to the moon and other planets without special space suits to survive there.
Human flesh cannot enter heaven, but the kingdom of God can enter human flesh thus we are entering into the kingdom of God here on earth once Gods spirit is within us, this is being born of the spirit! Being born of the spirit happens here on earth
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 15:44:45 GMT -5
Human flesh cannot enter heaven, but the kingdom of God can enter human flesh thus we are entering into the kingdom of God here on earth once Gods spirit is within us, this is being born if the spirit! And being born of the spirit happens here on earth Maryh, both of us are saying the same thing. That is good to see both of us believe the same on this. It's OK to disagree because we are on different levels and stages of understanding on our journey... It's good to hear, read others thoughts, ideas, and belief...Oh sorry it must be the way I'm reading it! and yes I'm glad we are agreeing on this
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 5, 2015 15:45:14 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=coR_MANuXKQLynda grew up in inner city , Washington, daughter of former gangster....... Lynda Randle sings song, "I'm Free", So long I had searched for life's meaning, Enslaved by the world and my greed; Then the door of the prison was opened by love, For the ransom was paid - I was free. Refrain I'm free from the fear of tomorrow, I'm free from the guilt of the past; For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song, I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I'm free from the guilt that I carried, From that dull empty life I'm set free; For when I met Jesus, He made me complete, He forgot how foolish I used to be. Refrain I'm free from the fear of tomorrow, I'm free from the guilt of the past; For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song, I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I'm free from the fear of tomorrow, I'm free from the guilt of the past; For I've traded my shackles for a glorious song, I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last! I'm Free! Praise the Lord! Free at last!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 16:13:16 GMT -5
Appreciate each one's thoughts. No analogy is perfect . Charles Prices shared one, that went along these lines. You are driving along , too fast, and you get a ticket for speeding. You stand before the judge, and because he is a JUST judge, and the law states there is a fine for speeding , he can't just say , well , you were not speeding really, etc. , we just forget about it, and let you go. The problem is , you were speeding, and there is a fine for that, BUT you as the guilty one, do not have the finanaces or the means to pay the fine, and the judge is a just judge and can't just ignore it , and the law needs to be upheld. At a standstill, a third party steps in, with the resources and ability to pay the fine for me , and the just judge accepts payment from , the third party, the fine is paid and the law upheld. The verdict, Alvin Kroeker, GUILTY, - FINE- $100 dollars- PAID in full, by a third party , and I am FREE . Alvin Hello sts, My problem with this and similar analogies is that it just perpetuates, confuses the issue, and attempts to justify the obviously false accusation and blatant inversion of the truth. I'm reminded of one ex's web site, where an example like this would fit, that he calls The Lying Truth. As some here would say, at some point you can't continue to justify the unjustifiable. To me, the straight truth is, if you repent, God will forgive. That is, if God is as just as alleged. One wonders why the need for the elaborate hoax. Does anybody think anybody is fooled? Especially God? Sometimes I wonder why Christians are so hard hearted that they feel we all need to accept a God and a story like this one, on top of repentance, before they believe you can be legitimately forgiven/saved? It gets even more bizarre with the ritual drinking of his blood and eating him, but perhaps some will come to their senses if they think about that one.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 5, 2015 16:24:18 GMT -5
Hi there, Ettu, Not quite sure what you're saying, but I agree, with your statement, if you repent , (change your mind), God forgives. Alvin
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Post by placid-void on Jul 5, 2015 16:27:27 GMT -5
Appreciated the deep and focused conversation on this thread.
At the end of the day, I am led back to 1 Corinthians 2:11
"For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
Methinks it might be best for me to refocus my reflections back on how I am doing with the love I show my neighbor. (Accompanied by own spirit within me.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 16:37:46 GMT -5
Hi there, Ettu, Not quite sure what you're saying, but I agree, with your statement, if you repent , (change your mind), God forgives. Alvin Hi Alvin, Thanks, I think you've got it.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 16:50:32 GMT -5
What I don't understand is how people think God is testing us. I think if there is a God and he made everything giving us life in flesh and blood bodies that it makes more sense that he wants us to enjoy them. To live the life he gave to the fullest. I don't think we did something bad to get us put in flesh and blood. It makes more sense that being able to experience the physical world would just be a different experience than the ethereal world which is likely what you would experience when you're dead? Making one bad and one good seems to negate the whole reason for living imo. The way I see it, life is to be experienced in all of it's various aspects. I don't think some devil was put here to tempt us. We are what we are and I think we should be celebrating our humanness because it allows us to experience the physical world. It makes no sense to me to say God made this beautiful physical existence only to have us deny it.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 17:10:16 GMT -5
Appreciated the deep and focused conversation on this thread. At the end of the day, I am led back to 1 Corinthians 2:11 "For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." Methinks it might be best for me to refocus my reflections back on how I am doing with the love I show my neighbor. (Accompanied by own spirit within me.) But don't you think that if we have the spirit of God within us, that his spirit will guide us and reveal Gods thoughts to our hearts, guiding us in our lives? We won't know everything, but he will teach us what we need to know! Also, I agree with looking at ourselves first, it's wrong to judge another because we are sinners. Only God can judge because only God knows what the depths of our hearts are like. We judge on outward appearances. But God looks deeper than our flesh. I also agree about loving our neighbour, but if we love God first and allow Christ into our heart, then Gods spirit will show us our own sins, and if we have faith and follow Jesus, he will cleanse our hearts and give us a strong conscience which we should be listening to, and if we are living right, and following the way of Jesus, then loving our neighbour should come naturally!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 5, 2015 17:22:32 GMT -5
What I don't understand is how people think God is testing us. I think if there is a God and he made everything giving us life in flesh and blood bodies that it makes more sense that he wants us to enjoy them. To live the life he gave to the fullest. I don't think we did something bad to get us put in flesh and blood. It makes more sense that being able to experience the physical world would just be a different experience than the ethereal world which is likely what you would experience when you're dead? Making one bad and one good seems to negate the whole reason for living imo. The way I see it, life is to be experienced in all of it's various aspects. I don't think some devil was put here to tempt us. We are what we are and I think we should be celebrating our humanness because it allows us to experience the physical world. It makes no sense to me to say God made this beautiful physical existence only to have us deny it. It's not to deny our existence, its to deny sin. Greed, hardness, spite, cruelty, hatred, selfishness, wickedness, backbiting, lust, fornication, etc. These are what we have to deny, these are the flesh. And we have to replace them with kindness, compassion, generosity, and most importantly, love! Love will cover all these things!
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2015 17:24:53 GMT -5
What I don't understand is how people think God is testing us. I think if there is a God and he made everything giving us life in flesh and blood bodies that it makes more sense that he wants us to enjoy them. To live the life he gave to the fullest. I don't think we did something bad to get us put in flesh and blood. It makes more sense that being able to experience the physical world would just be a different experience than the ethereal world which is likely what you would experience when you're dead? Making one bad and one good seems to negate the whole reason for living imo. The way I see it, life is to be experienced in all of it's various aspects. I don't think some devil was put here to tempt us. We are what we are and I think we should be celebrating our humanness because it allows us to experience the physical world. It makes no sense to me to say God made this beautiful physical existence only to have us deny it. It's not to deny our existence, its to deny sin. Greed, hardness, spite, cruelty, hatred, selfishness, wickedness, backbiting, lust, fornication, etc. These are what we have to deny, these are the flesh. And we have to replace them with kindness, compassion, generosity, and most importantly, love! Love will cover all these things! They are all matters of the flesh . . . human/animal nature.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 17:28:49 GMT -5
What I don't understand is how people think God is testing us. I think if there is a God and he made everything giving us life in flesh and blood bodies that it makes more sense that he wants us to enjoy them. To live the life he gave to the fullest. I don't think we did something bad to get us put in flesh and blood. It makes more sense that being able to experience the physical world would just be a different experience than the ethereal world which is likely what you would experience when you're dead? Making one bad and one good seems to negate the whole reason for living imo. The way I see it, life is to be experienced in all of it's various aspects. I don't think some devil was put here to tempt us. We are what we are and I think we should be celebrating our humanness because it allows us to experience the physical world. It makes no sense to me to say God made this beautiful physical existence only to have us deny it. It's not to deny our existence, its to deny sin. Greed, hardness, spite, cruelty, hatred, selfishness, wickedness, backbiting, lust, fornication, etc. These are what we have to deny, these are the flesh. And we have to replace them with kindness, compassion, generosity, and most importantly, love! Love will cover all these things! In other words, embrace the good aspects of who we are? Okay I can get behind that. In fact it is what makes sense actually. But I don't see the other side of me as a sinful side. It is just the duality of who I am and I can choose which one I wish to be. Thankfully I don't need to believe in a God or an afterlife to do this.
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