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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 1, 2015 19:10:55 GMT -5
I think a lot of people on here have no idea what a concordance is. A concordance is nothing more than a list of words to be found in a specific publication -- nothing more. The only thing one will ever find in Strong's Concordance (or at least the one I have) is words from the KJV of the Bible. It won't work for any other version of the Bible, because it's not a concordance to any other version. A concordance doesn't make any pretense of presenting doctrine, history, fact, fiction, culture, translation, or any such thing -- nothing other than finding specific words in the specific book. If the word's not in the KJV of the Bible, it will not, and will never, appear in the Strong's Concordance of the KJV Bible. Concordances are not updated. When a new version appears, then it's time for another concordance for the new version. I've compiled a number of concordances -- you don't have to research anything to do that. All you need is ONE book and a word processor. By coincidence, I even compiled a concordance for a book that I could not read. Not difficult. From the Strong's web site: The Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is the most complete, easy-to-use, and understandable concordance for studying the original languages of the Bible. Combining the text of the King James Version and New American Standard Bibles with the power of the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons, any student or pastor can gain a clear understanding of the Word to enrich their study. That's a promising advertising blurb. But my Strong's Concordance says nothing about the New American Standard Bible. However, a claim that an "English" concordance has great value for studying ancient Greek and Hebrew is really kind of silly. Likewise, the expectation that the perceived "power of the Greek and Hebrew Lexicon" is going to manifest itself in the selection of vocabulary by the English translators of the KJV. Of course, the blurb will thoroughly convince the naïve that the concordance is indeed something more than just a simple list of words.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 1, 2015 19:13:20 GMT -5
Dmg So you are one 'old crone'? not drone? I still maintain you are also in possession of awesome on line palm reading and misfortune telling skills. I await your next post with further misfortune that you wish to palm off on me. I'm not sure who is the best at it. Your or our resident koine greek papyri theologian/linguist from out west. You both are quite amusing and lively in handing out pleasant encouraging and appreciative compliments to me. Doesn't seem age or ill health has hampered either of you yet in that! No, I'm a "crone."
Both definitions describe me.
CRONE
1. An old woman considered to be ugly; a hag. I am 83 & gravity has taken it's toll.
My face sags, so I certainly am no beauty!
Ah! but you should have seen me when I was young! 2. A woman who is venerated for experience, judgment, and wisdom.
Actually I know that you don't believe it but sometimes I am also this! And I'm really none of these:
DRONE:
1. the male of the honeybee and other bees, stingless and making no honey.
2. an unmanned aircraft or ship that can navigate autonomously, without human control or beyond line of sight: a radio-controlled drone.
3. a person who lives on the labor of others; parasitic loafer.
4. a drudge.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 1, 2015 19:21:19 GMT -5
But Strong's is more than just a concordance, right? It also includes a Hebrew/Greek lexicon? Yes, the BIG edition of the concordance will include many of the Greek or Hebrew words that the English words are supposed to be translated from. That's called a lexicon, but it's hardly even a satisfactory reference for studying Greek. There's no room in an English concordance to explain the variations in meaning between Greek terms used in different centuries. Those kinds of things happen in highly specialized language research studies, who already have outdated even the NIV translation. What you get from a concordance will be as much Greek as the one sentence I can pronounce very well in Vietnamese -- and nothing else.
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Post by rational on Jul 1, 2015 19:46:26 GMT -5
That's a promising advertising blurb. But my Strong's Concordance says nothing about the New American Standard Bible. What version do you have? Have you tried the new version of Strong's? Isn't this the way your version of Strong's works? You look up the English word and it links to the text from which it was translated. What about it didn't you like? The way words were highlighted and noted with the appropriate Strong number? Or the way the source being looked at could be easily switched between two versions of the bible? What led you to believe it was just a simple list of words?
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Post by snow on Jul 1, 2015 20:42:22 GMT -5
Dmg So you are one 'old crone'? not drone? I still maintain you are also in possession of awesome on line palm reading and misfortune telling skills. I await your next post with further misfortune that you wish to palm off on me. I'm not sure who is the best at it. Your or our resident koine greek papyri theologian/linguist from out west. You both are quite amusing and lively in handing out pleasant encouraging and appreciative compliments to me. Doesn't seem age or ill health has hampered either of you yet in that! No, I'm a "crone."
Both definitions describe me.
CRONE
1. An old woman considered to be ugly; a hag. I am 83 & gravity has taken it's toll.
My face sags, so I certainly am no beauty!
Ah! but you should have seen me when I was young! 2. A woman who is venerated for experience, judgment, and wisdom.
Actually I know that you don't believe it but sometimes I am also this! And I'm really none of these:
DRONE:
1. the male of the honeybee and other bees, stingless and making no honey.
2. an unmanned aircraft or ship that can navigate autonomously, without human control or beyond line of sight: a radio-controlled drone.
3. a person who lives on the labor of others; parasitic loafer.
4. a drudge.
For me you are the woman who is venerated for experience, judgement and wisdom and you will never come close to the definition of 'drudge'.
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Post by snow on Jul 1, 2015 20:47:10 GMT -5
Wait wait Gene! I take exception to this statement of yours!!!! "By the way, thank GOD rational and yourself that we've moved beyond discussing whether or not the OP is relevant! Apparently, it is!!!!!" Here is my take on it: The thread has forgotten those irreverent irrelevant dusty old egyptian papyri papers that Dennis loves but nobody (including Dennis) understand the relevance of. It's all about Strongs now. Strongs that Denny had audacity to denigrate and blaspheme against in his open post. I don't think Dennis denigrated or blasphemed against it. Here is what he said: One reason Strong's (originally published 1890) is not considered totally reliable is that (although for me it is a wonderful work) it was compiled just before the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's that have so helped in translation of old Greek documents since then. So he said it wasn't totally reliable, which is likely true, but in fact he states 'ALTHOUGH FOR ME IT IS A WONDERFUL WORK'. So from that I understood it to mean that he thinks highly of it.
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Post by rational on Jul 1, 2015 20:58:46 GMT -5
Wait wait Gene! I take exception to this statement of yours!!!! "By the way, thank GOD rational and yourself that we've moved beyond discussing whether or not the OP is relevant! Apparently, it is!!!!!" Here is my take on it: The thread has forgotten those irreverent irrelevant dusty old egyptian papyri papers that Dennis loves but nobody (including Dennis) understand the relevance of. It's all about Strongs now. Strongs that Denny had audacity to denigrate and blaspheme against in his open post. The relevance of any discovered ancient text is obvious. Not sure why @dennisj thought that Strongs would not be updated with the new findings but he is correct in believing if you had an original edition that it might not be as reliable as a new edition. The importance of finding old texts and their value can be seen in discoveries like the Rosetta stone. I too am not sure of the relevance of the OP other than to point out that an old edition of Strongs would not be as accurate as a more up to edition. By the same reasoning a chemistry textbook published in the 1800s would not be as accurate as one published in 2015. I am not certain of the controversy but it looked like an example of people not taking the high road.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 1, 2015 21:40:15 GMT -5
That's a promising advertising blurb. But my Strong's Concordance says nothing about the New American Standard Bible. What version do you have? Concise printed edition. No -- the print edition doesn't do that. In any case, I was responding to the comment that it was a good tool for learning Greek. What you describe doesn't really "teach" anyone anything about Greek, unless they have a section that first of all teaches the Greek (and Hebrew) alphabets. At best, it's a tool for someone fluent in Greek. About the content of the concordance -- I didn't say I disliked anything. About the blurb -- it's not the teaching tool it leads people to believe it is. But I do recognize that some people actually do think that's how one learns a language. I've not tried it, but it sounds like someone is an exceptionally good concordance editor. Concordances, like dictionaries, are lists of words -- in alphabetical order, first of all. It's what you do with the words in the list that make it either a concordance or a dictionary. For a concordance, you add the link to the word in the book you are indexing. For a dictionary, you add the meanings of the word ... in the same language. For a bilingual dictionary, you have two lists. One lists all the words in language A and gives as many translations as possible in language B, and the other lists all the words in language B and gives all the possible translations in language A. I doubt the Strong's Concordance includes such a second list. I am certain what you find in that concordance is the concordance feature with a modified version of one side of a bilingual version. A proper bilingual version is most often at least as big as any concordance I've seen. Furthermore -- people don't learn languages from dictionaries -- all they learn is words. I'm still trying to figure out what people think new discoveries of ancient documents can do to change anything in a concordance to the Bible. The concordance to the Bible can have no more connection to any other writings than it has with the Qur'an. I use my concordance all the time, but it's the last place I'd look for anything other than where to find the word in the Bible.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 1, 2015 23:21:38 GMT -5
For me you are the woman who is venerated for experience, judgement and wisdom and you will never come close to the definition of 'drudge'. Thanks, snow.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 2, 2015 5:24:42 GMT -5
As someone who has been professing for over 30 years, I am embarrassed by the sarcasm and tone exhibited by review005, if he is a worker as some say. I cannot reconcile the sarcastic writing with the teachings of Jesus. An invitation to talk with Dennis, even if it would only end up being agreement to disagree, was declined in a most ungracious way. The denigration of academics and theologians was out of line - what sort of people compiled Strong's? Illiterate and uneducated people? And was Ryries uneducated? Most of the New Testament was written by one of the most educated theologians of his time. And Jesus himself sat at the feet of the scholars learning, and could not have recited as much of the old Hebrew scrolls if he was uneducated.
In lurking over the last few months, all I have seen is put downs, and an argumentative style of writing, which brings out not the best, but the worst in people.
Why do so many Christians like to kick each other when in fact they should be thinking the best of each other, and building up the good.
It is only natural for people who have decided to leave a group, church or club to continue to see reasons to validate their decision. Especially such a life changing one. They should not be criticised for it. Building bridges, such as having a coffee, rather than burning them is what I would see as being the more appropriate action. Even if it is merely to show that Love is the Kingdom's banner.
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Post by rational on Jul 2, 2015 7:07:23 GMT -5
What version do you have? Concise printed edition. That will make hyperlinked text difficult to use! I think the teaching was not learning Greek or Hebrew but to show the definition(s) of the Greek and/or Hebrew words that were in the original. I think the teaching being referred to was the link to the meanings of words in the original language and not how to read the original language.Sounds like the new version fits all of the above. I don't think there is an implication from Strings publisher that you will be able to learn a language. That would be correct if Strongs was just a word list linking the words used in the bible but it has the additional function of linking the words in the bible to the original text as well providing a definition for these words. As more is learned about the use of these words at the time when the manuscripts were created the definitions can be refined. Other uses can be informative. For example you could learn the english word 'virgin' is found in the bible 33 times but the Hebrew word for virgin is found in the bible 50 times but is translated differently: virgin 38, maid 7, maiden 5. You could also learn that the word translated as virgin in Isaiah 7:14 is a different Hebrew word than the one used for virgin in Genesis but that Hebrew word does occur in the bible 7 times as: virgin 4, maid 2, damsels 1. It is defined as: 1.) virgin, young woman a. of marriageable age b. maid or newly married (There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin) But then the Greek word translated as virgin in Matthew has the following definitions: a marriageable maiden a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man one's marriageable daughter Interesting to see how the translators applied different meanings to the same original word. A maze of little twisty passages. Not sure why you would not use the other resources that the reference book has to offer.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 2, 2015 9:05:41 GMT -5
In lurking over the last few months, all I have seen is put downs, and an argumentative style of writing, which brings out not the best, but the worst in people. Why do so many Christians like to kick each other when in fact they should be thinking the best of each other, and building up the good. It is only natural for people who have decided to leave a group, church or club to continue to see reasons to validate their decision. Especially such a life changing one. They should not be criticised for it. Building bridges, such as having a coffee, rather than burning them is what I would see as being the more appropriate action. Even if it is merely to show that Love is the Kingdom's banner. Did you happen to read the "Cult to Christ" thread? professing.proboards.com/thread/22956/new-book-cult-christ The only solution I can see is to quit posting and reading because what some exes are stuck in a rut doing goes WAY beyond "continue to see reasons to validate their decision". Reading the oft repeated judgmental lies and misrepresentations can make a person pretty pragmatic. I just responded to an exe who called the fellowship a "A cold callous compassionless cult". LIke that is breaking news we have never heard before. That is no different than calling me, personally, cold, callous, and compassionless. I suppose leaving TMB would be what Paul means when he says to not partake if it causes a brother to offend. If I didn't post I would not cause them to offend by saying stuff like that. But then if they didn't post the over-the-top judgmental lies and misrepresentations they do they wouldn't cause me to offend - with comments that seem to cause them to say even more offensive things - that cause me to pragmatically partake in the conversation and offend again. Yes, the only option seems to be to shut up. But, should the over-the-top offensive lies and misrepresentations not be questioned? Maybe not - they will have to answer for what they say and write, it's not really my problem. There - I made it to cold, callous, and compassionless. Great. And it's your fault!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 2, 2015 16:32:00 GMT -5
Other uses can be informative. For example you could learn the english word 'virgin' is found in the bible 33 times but the Hebrew word for virgin is found in the bible 50 times but is translated differently: virgin 38, maid 7, maiden 5. You could also learn that the word translated as virgin in Isaiah 7:14 is a different Hebrew word than the one used for virgin in Genesis but that Hebrew word does occur in the bible 7 times as: virgin 4, maid 2, damsels 1. It is defined as: 1.) virgin, young woman a. of marriageable age b. maid or newly married (There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin) But then the Greek word translated as virgin in Matthew has the following definitions: a marriageable maiden a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man one's marriageable daughter Interesting to see how the translators applied different meanings to the same original word. A maze of little twisty passages. Not sure why you would not use the other resources that the reference book has to offer. This is surely something that will not be appearing in print form, but linking up to other's work is certainly a very smart move. The wonders of the information age.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 2, 2015 17:25:46 GMT -5
In lurking over the last few months, all I have seen is put downs, and an argumentative style of writing, which brings out not the best, but the worst in people. Why do so many Christians like to kick each other when in fact they should be thinking the best of each other, and building up the good. It is only natural for people who have decided to leave a group, church or club to continue to see reasons to validate their decision. Especially such a life changing one. They should not be criticised for it. Building bridges, such as having a coffee, rather than burning them is what I would see as being the more appropriate action. Even if it is merely to show that Love is the Kingdom's banner. Did you happen to read the "Cult to Christ" thread? professing.proboards.com/thread/22956/new-book-cult-christ The only solution I can see is to quit posting and reading because what some exes are stuck in a rut doing goes WAY beyond " continue to see reasons to validate their decision". Reading the oft repeated judgmental lies and misrepresentations can make a person pretty pragmatic. I just responded to an exe who called the fellowship a "A cold callous compassionless cult". LIke that is breaking news we have never heard before. That is no different than calling me, personally, cold, callous, and compassionless. I suppose leaving TMB would be what Paul means when he says to not partake if it causes a brother to offend. If I didn't post I would not cause them to offend by saying stuff like that. But then if they didn't post the over-the-top judgmental lies and misrepresentations they do they wouldn't cause me to offend - with comments that seem to cause them to say even more offensive things - that cause me to pragmatically partake in the conversation and offend again. Yes, the only option seems to be to shut up. But, should the over-the-top offensive lies and misrepresentations not be questioned? Maybe not - they will have to answer for what they say and write, it's not really my problem. here - I made it to cold, callous, and compassionless. Great. And it's your fault!
Jessie, I feel no necessity for me to have to give any "reasons to validate" or prove my decision to leave.
No more than you, Jesse, need to give "reasons to validate," or prove YOUR decision to stay!
The person that felt the fellowship was "A cold callous compassionless cult," possibly had an experience that gave them good reason for feeling that way. What I don't understand is why you feel that they were PERSONALLY calling YOU that?
Is those that have left any more judgmental than those that denounce them for leaving?
Would you please show the actual posts by exes which you say are "lies ?"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 17:32:01 GMT -5
Review 005, maybe you can get helpful stuff from these threads to give you some bread at the conventions this summer, I don't know. Do you preach with the same style that you write messages on TMB?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 2, 2015 17:51:44 GMT -5
Jessie, I feel no necessity for me to have to give any "reasons to validate" or prove my decision to leave.
No more than you, Jesse, need to give "reasons to validate," or prove YOUR decision to stay!
The person that felt the fellowship was "A cold callous compassionless cult," possibly had an experience that gave them good reason for feeling that way. What I don't understand is why you feel that they were PERSONALLY calling YOU that?
Is those that have left any more judgmental than those that denounce them for leaving?
Would you please show the actual posts by exes which you say are "lies ?"
I'm part of the group of people magpie called "a cold callous compassionless cult" - how could I not be included? And if the phrase is not true what is it? I suppose the solution is here; -->> Let There Be Peace.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 2, 2015 17:52:59 GMT -5
Review 005, maybe you can get helpful stuff from these threads to give you some bread at the conventions this summer, I don't know. Do you preach with the same style that you write messages on TMB? Better yet, give us your convention schedule and I could see if I could identify you if I listened really carefully.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 2, 2015 18:03:54 GMT -5
Jessie, I feel no necessity for me to have to give any "reasons to validate" or prove my decision to leave.
No more than you, Jesse, need to give "reasons to validate," or prove YOUR decision to stay!
The person that felt the fellowship was "A cold callous compassionless cult," possibly had an experience that gave them good reason for feeling that way. What I don't understand is why you feel that they were PERSONALLY calling YOU that?
Is those that have left any more judgmental than those that denounce them for leaving?
Would you please show the actual posts by exes which you say are "lies ?"
I'm part of the group of people magpie called "a cold callous compassionless cult" - how could I not be included? And if the phrase is not true what is it? I suppose the solution is here; -->> Let There Be Peace. Because it has been one person's experience doesn't not make it true for all such groups nor true for all the people in that group!
It would seem to me that the bigger question for the person in that group would be to ask what was it about that person's experience that caused them to feel that way.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 2, 2015 18:11:42 GMT -5
I'm part of the group of people magpie called "a cold callous compassionless cult" - how could I not be included? And if the phrase is not true what is it? I suppose the solution is here; -->> Let There Be Peace. Because it has been one person's experience doesn't not make it true for all such groups nor true for all the people in that group!
It would seem to me that the bigger question for the person in that group would be to ask what was it about that person's experience that caused them to feel that way.Exactly DMG, then why say something that is not true? I think there needs to be some serious self-reflection, I think the people saying things that are not true and severe misrepresentations have some responsibility to figure out why they feel moved to do so. >> Let There Be Peace. <<
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 21:28:34 GMT -5
Did you happen to read the "Cult to Christ" thread? professing.proboards.com/thread/22956/new-book-cult-christ The only solution I can see is to quit posting and reading because what some exes are stuck in a rut doing goes WAY beyond " continue to see reasons to validate their decision". Reading the oft repeated judgmental lies and misrepresentations can make a person pretty pragmatic. I just responded to an exe who called the fellowship a "A cold callous compassionless cult". LIke that is breaking news we have never heard before. That is no different than calling me, personally, cold, callous, and compassionless. I suppose leaving TMB would be what Paul means when he says to not partake if it causes a brother to offend. If I didn't post I would not cause them to offend by saying stuff like that. But then if they didn't post the over-the-top judgmental lies and misrepresentations they do they wouldn't cause me to offend - with comments that seem to cause them to say even more offensive things - that cause me to pragmatically partake in the conversation and offend again. Yes, the only option seems to be to shut up. But, should the over-the-top offensive lies and misrepresentations not be questioned? Maybe not - they will have to answer for what they say and write, it's not really my problem. here - I made it to cold, callous, and compassionless. Great. And it's your fault!
Jessie, I feel no necessity for me to have to give any "reasons to validate" or prove my decision to leave.
No more than you, Jesse, need to give "reasons to validate," or prove YOUR decision to stay!
The person that felt the fellowship was "A cold callous compassionless cult," possibly had an experience that gave them good reason for feeling that way. What I don't understand is why you feel that they were PERSONALLY calling YOU that?
Is those that have left any more judgmental than those that denounce them for leaving?
Would you please show the actual posts by exes which you say are "lies ?"
Great post Dmg. Maybe Jesse should take the time to message Magpie & find out what his experiences have been. Also would be interested in actual posts by ex's that Jesse feels are lies !
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 3, 2015 3:03:28 GMT -5
Because it has been one person's experience doesn't not make it true for all such groups nor true for all the people in that group!
It would seem to me that the bigger question for the person in that group would be to ask what was it about that person's experience that caused them to feel that way. Exactly DMG, then why say something that is not true? I think there needs to be some serious self-reflection, I think the people saying things that are not true and severe misrepresentations have some responsibility to figure out why they feel moved to do so. You haven't posted the actual statements where someone has stated something not true!
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Strong's
Jul 3, 2015 12:30:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Gene likes this
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 3, 2015 12:30:00 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 3, 2015 18:36:35 GMT -5
Well then, JESSIE! Quit claiming something is TRUE and then not want to show why!
There CAN NOT be "Peace" when people accuse other people of something they didn't do & then just say, "I'm not in the mood for that anymore!"
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 3, 2015 19:26:10 GMT -5
Well then, JESSIE! Quit claiming something is TRUE and then not want to show why!
There CAN NOT be "Peace" when people accuse other people of something they didn't do & then just say, "I'm not in the mood for that anymore!" I was in the mood before redback's thread >> Let There Be Peace. << I changed my mind, am I allowed to do that? If you really need proof look around here on TMB, on the WF&E board, on TLT or VOT, I think you are honest and smart enough to figure it out.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 4, 2015 2:26:05 GMT -5
Well then, JESSIE! Quit claiming something is TRUE and then not want to show why!
There CAN NOT be "Peace" when people accuse other people of something they didn't do & then just say, "I'm not in the mood for that anymore!" I was in the mood before redback's thread >> Let There Be Peace. << I changed my mind, am I allowed to do that? If you really need proof look around here on TMB, on the WF&E board, on TLT or VOT, I think you are honest and smart enough to figure it out. You just don't get it, Jessie.
You keep saying that people say things that are "not true."
Often they are stating their feelings.
There needs to be some "serious self-reflection" by you & others as to why some people feel this way instead of just saying that it isn't true what they are saying.
You also talk about "responsibility." Some of the "responsibility" lies with those that remain within the **TRUTH** (as we called it) as why some people feel as they do.
You keep saying, << Let There Be Peace, >> like some kind of at mantra but it won't work by just saying it.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 4, 2015 3:11:02 GMT -5
Dennis, I am rather lacking in education but I understood the meaning of your excellent post quite easily. It is sad to see though, that some with a better understanding are always looking to belittle others. Their posts speak volumes about themselves.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 4, 2015 3:15:33 GMT -5
Prior to the discovery of those ancient Koine Greek papyri, some (admittedly only a few, as I recall) of those Greek words have revealed themselves more clearly by their ussage to those studying them. If you need to know specifically which ones, are you not equally able now with this knowledge to discover that for yourself, especially since you consider me to "spew" such things out? Do you "get it" now?
So what relevance does the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's have to do witha) illiterate followers of Jesus Christ living in a 3rd world country in the 21st century orb)even a literate follower of Jesus Christ in a developed country in the 21st century?
I don't understand the point or relevance for posting this information on TMB? Obviously there is a point and there is relevance; it's just that you haven't enlightened us yet. Regarding the coffee. Look I'm sorry but your last posts and their content hardly stir enthusiasm in me for that. Mr Review, a better question to ask yourself might be, "What relevance am I, Mr Review to anyones salvation"?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 5:32:45 GMT -5
There's this old saying,"Nationalism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." I often think that could be applied to academia. So if someone inpugns your standard of behavior you can say to them (or even yourself) for instance, "You are telling ME what is right or wrong? ME who has a Masters in Aramaic and did a Ph.D. in the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls?" I have met people like that.
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