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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 10:36:50 GMT -5
Know what you mean. I just about didn't but since it was from my sister I thought I had better know what I was talking about when she decides to 'discuss' it with me. It was hard for me for personal reasons and it absolutely saddens me that my sister thinks its the way things should be. I truly don't know what to say when she brings the subject up, and she will. Sometimes even the people closest to us are daft about how painful certain topics can be, despite knowing things we have experienced...I'm sorry. It really sucks to have to deal with that on top of dealing with the core issue. Something that would hurt less if it came from an aquaintence--although that kind of thing can make us realize how little closeness we actually have with people who should be important, and we should be important for. You don't have to discuss it with her just because you feel bad for her situation...she needs to understand it's an off-limits topic for you. Maybe that would get her thinking to help herself anyway... Ugh. This sounds so bossy! Just mean to let you know I empathize. I certainly understand what you mean and I don't think it's bossy at all. The thing is I have never told my birth family about my rape or the physical abuse in my first marriage. I just haven't talked about it with them. It was something that happened to me before I met them, so she had no idea how personal this subject was for me in that sense. My thoughts still remain that if she believes this stuff how must it be for her? I don't think her husband is like that but I certainly don't know that he isn't. I don't know them that well. I do know from little remarks she has made over time that she feels the wife's place in the home is one of submissiveness. I have never seen my BIL rule over her though. He's a pretty nice guy, in public anyway.
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 10:40:12 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Yes I suppose this is true. I guess I reacted to it so negatively because of my past history. On the other hand, I really don't see my sister as all that happy but that might be due to other things and not that. I guess what I am really dreading is having a conversation with her over this and I might just take withlove's advice and tell her I don't want to talk about it. That we see things different and just leave it like that.
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 12:11:21 GMT -5
Sometimes even the people closest to us are daft about how painful certain topics can be, despite knowing things we have experienced...I'm sorry. It really sucks to have to deal with that on top of dealing with the core issue. Something that would hurt less if it came from an aquaintence--although that kind of thing can make us realize how little closeness we actually have with people who should be important, and we should be important for. You don't have to discuss it with her just because you feel bad for her situation...she needs to understand it's an off-limits topic for you. Maybe that would get her thinking to help herself anyway... Ugh. This sounds so bossy! Just mean to let you know I empathize. I certainly understand what you mean and I don't think it's bossy at all. The thing is I have never told my birth family about my rape or the physical abuse in my first marriage. I just haven't talked about it with them. It was something that happened to me before I met them, so she had no idea how personal this subject was for me in that sense. My thoughts still remain that if she believes this stuff how must it be for her? I don't think her husband is like that but I certainly don't know that he isn't. I don't know them that well. I do know from little remarks she has made over time that she feels the wife's place in the home is one of submissiveness. I have never seen my BIL rule over her though. He's a pretty nice guy, in public anyway. Ah, ok. I hope it works out for the best for you and for her.
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 12:14:54 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure.
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Post by rational on May 22, 2015 13:01:32 GMT -5
Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. Happiness is one of those words that could have a different meaning for different people. Maybe there is no need to wake up to anything. As with most situations in life people will continue on as long as the cost does not outweigh the benefit. And sometimes if the benefits are good, excess costs can be overlooked. It sounds like snow was previously in a very different situation.
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 13:21:52 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. withlove, it is altogether possible for my sister to not be entirely happy with being submissive, but sees it as doing what God wants her to do and that is one of the things she totally lives for. She has a very conservative interpretation of the bible, is a creationist, etc. So it would be considered a 'cross to bear' if she did have any dislike to being submissive. She would have made an excellent martyr. Very black and white when it comes to the Bible and it's interpretation.
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Post by emy on May 22, 2015 13:36:59 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not!
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 13:58:41 GMT -5
Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not! Emy, been remarried for almost 24 years now. Such a different experience!!! I can't believe I tried to make my 1st marriage work for 12 years! I don't know what my sister would be interested in to be truthful. I am a little concerned for her now actually. I really don't know what she had in mind sending it to me. I never thought it might be a reaching out if that is what you mean?
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Post by emy on May 22, 2015 18:43:52 GMT -5
If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not! Emy, been remarried for almost 24 years now. Such a different experience!!! I can't believe I tried to make my 1st marriage work for 12 years! I don't know what my sister would be interested in to be truthful. I am a little concerned for her now actually. I really don't know what she had in mind sending it to me. I never thought it might be a reaching out if that is what you mean? Yes, that's what I meant.
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 19:20:00 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Thankfully people have changed the world for the better by speaking out against unethical beliefs. Many used to believe that slavery was scriptural.
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Post by Gene on May 22, 2015 19:26:17 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Thankfully people have changed the world for the better by speaking out against unethical beliefs. Many used to believe that slavery was scriptural. I have a friend who is a lawyer with Actors Equity, the labor union for Broadway actors and stage managers (and who gets me free tickets to shows!) He is working on a case to demand that "experimental" shows pay their actors, as opposed to the current arrangement by which actors work for free to get experience. I questioned why he would do that, when it's clearly an agreement between the actor and the show for the actor to work for free. His answer: We're a labor union. We believe people should be paid for their labor. The moral of the story: Even if Person A and Person B agree to a particular arrangement, the arrangement is not necessarily moral.
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 21:26:09 GMT -5
Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not! I would suggest that "I wanna so we gotta" would be a definite turn off and only increase the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. That's just my opinion of course, and I can't speak for others - least of all women!
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 21:30:23 GMT -5
Thankfully people have changed the world for the better by speaking out against unethical beliefs. Many used to believe that slavery was scriptural. I have a friend who is a lawyer with Actors Equity, the labor union for Broadway actors and stage managers (and who gets me free tickets to shows!) He is working on a case to demand that "experimental" shows pay their actors, as opposed to the current arrangement by which actors work for free to get experience. I questioned why he would do that, when it's clearly an agreement between the actor and the show for the actor to work for free. His answer: We're a labor union. We believe people should be paid for their labor. The moral of the story: Even if Person A and Person B agree to a particular arrangement, the arrangement is not necessarily moral. Which is a reason to ban the public wearing of the niqab and burqa in Western countries.
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Post by applesandbacon on May 22, 2015 21:58:59 GMT -5
It's amazing what people get up to under the "christian" umbrella. You might find the Free Jinger forum interesting. People there talk about christian fundamentalism in all it's short comings, with a huge emphasis on the Duggars and the quiverfull movement. Some fringe groups discussed on that site use the bible to portray BDSM as "christian domestic discipline" and justify group sex. (it's polygamy! Just like in the OT!) There's a christian lid to fit every pot, I guess.
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 22:48:25 GMT -5
Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. Happiness is one of those words that could have a different meaning for different people. Maybe there is no need to wake up to anything. As with most situations in life people will continue on as long as the cost does not outweigh the benefit. And sometimes if the benefits are good, excess costs can be overlooked. It sounds like snow was previously in a very different situation. People can be convinced they are happy until they get out of a situation and come to terms with how awful they were treated and felt. Then they experience this "THIS is what happiness is" moment.
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 22:55:56 GMT -5
Like snow says about her sister...those women may not actually be happy with that situation, even if they believe it is the right way to live. It may not do much good to talk about it if the belief is so strong...it may be something they have to wake up to entirely on their own...not sure. If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not! Mitigating unwanted sex sounds really sad. Proactive, but depressing and demeaning..."how can I make myself less unhappy while he does this?" Probably I should read the article but I can't bring myself to do that. Just going on the meaning of mitigating here. REPLACING the method with a method of getting the wife fully enthusiastic would be better.
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Post by emy on May 22, 2015 23:24:19 GMT -5
If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not! Mitigating unwanted sex sounds really sad. Proactive, but depressing and demeaning..."how can I make myself less unhappy while he does this?" Probably I should read the article but I can't bring myself to do that. Just going on the meaning of mitigating here. REPLACING the method with a method of getting the wife fully enthusiastic would be better. Mitigating was just my word and it's definitely not an ideal word! Communication is encouraged, but there are facets of the article that didn't appeal - and I didn't read it all! After 45 years, hubby and I should have it pretty well worked out!
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Post by withlove on May 22, 2015 23:29:47 GMT -5
Mitigating unwanted sex sounds really sad. Proactive, but depressing and demeaning..."how can I make myself less unhappy while he does this?" Probably I should read the article but I can't bring myself to do that. Just going on the meaning of mitigating here. REPLACING the method with a method of getting the wife fully enthusiastic would be better. Mitigating was just my word and it's definitely not an ideal word! Communication is encouraged, but there are facets of the article that didn't appeal - and I didn't read it all! After 45 years, hubby and I should have it pretty well worked out! Hahaha good to know. Congrats on that!
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Post by ellie on May 23, 2015 9:04:46 GMT -5
If we read the whole article (I didn't - just skimmed headlines), we can see that there are ways to mitigate that "I wanna so we gotta" method. It includes working on what causes the "I DON'T wanna" feeling. PS. Snow, are you presently married? I'm thinking not? Maybe your sister would be interested in ideas from you how to change the submissive relationship. ... Or maybe not! Mitigating unwanted sex sounds really sad. Proactive, but depressing and demeaning..."how can I make myself less unhappy while he does this?" Probably I should read the article but I can't bring myself to do that. Just going on the meaning of mitigating here. REPLACING the method with a method of getting the wife fully enthusiastic would be better. That's how I feel. That it's sad and demeaning. The couple may, of course, feel differently, but to me it feels like the woman is being objectified rather than seen as a whole person. It just seems unnecessary. I don't want to be rude, but there are outlets other than by a man taking sex from his wife. This seems to be about power more than sexual gratification.
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Post by ellie on May 23, 2015 9:07:32 GMT -5
snow all the best for the conversation whatever you decide.
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Post by rational on May 23, 2015 9:24:13 GMT -5
The moral of the story: Even if Person A and Person B agree to a particular arrangement, the arrangement is not necessarily moral. This would seem to require universal morality. Or the question of 'Whose morality?' jumps right up.
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Post by Gene on May 23, 2015 10:03:23 GMT -5
The moral of the story: Even if Person A and Person B agree to a particular arrangement, the arrangement is not necessarily moral. This would seem to require universal morality. Or the question of 'Whose morality?' jumps right up. Well that's easy. Mine, of course.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:24:49 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset? There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs. Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this? I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs? Thankfully people have changed the world for the better by speaking out against unethical beliefs. Many used to believe that slavery was scriptural. You were also a sinner if you were left handed.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:35:14 GMT -5
It's amazing what people get up to under the "christian" umbrella. You might find the Free Jinger forum interesting. People there talk about christian fundamentalism in all it's short comings, with a huge emphasis on the Duggars and the quiverfull movement. Some fringe groups discussed on that site use the bible to portray BDSM as "christian domestic discipline" and justify group sex. (it's polygamy! Just like in the OT!) There's a christian lid to fit every pot, I guess. I was reading the school curriculum of the home schooling of the Duggar children and I don't think we should be blaming Josh but more his parents for what they taught their children. www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/22/unbelievable-the-duggars-alleged-homeschool-curriculum-calls-sexual-abuse-a-gift-image/My sister who sent me that blog has 4 children and all of them are part of the quiverful movement. My sister home schooled all her children until the upper grades then they went to a very conservative Christian school. Now all my nieces and nephew home school their children. I wonder what curriculum they used now that I see what is out there. Maybe the curriculum is more restricted in Canada, but I somehow don't think so. I attended my youngest nieces grad from the Christian school and all the principal could talk about was sending out 3 blood brides for Christ into the world. There were only 3 girls graduating that year, small school.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:39:04 GMT -5
snow all the best for the conversation whatever you decide. Thanks Ellie. I will definitely need to think this one over. Usually it's just emails trying to get me to give my life to Jesus so I won't go to hell. I can deal with those. This one blew me away. Could be Emy is right about her reaching out, but I don't know. If she is I have to think it's unconsciously because she is in total denial about most things.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 12:04:53 GMT -5
Well I guess my question about the Duggars and my niece/nephews backing the Duggars has been answered. It also answers my unconfirmed thought about where they got quiverful from. My niece who is pregnant with child 5 just posted this and made the comment that it was very well written. www.theblaze.com/contributions/the-duggars-arent-hypocrites-progressives-are/I do agree with the hypocrite aspect to some degree. None of us have gone through life without making a mistake.
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Post by applesandbacon on May 23, 2015 12:50:53 GMT -5
It's amazing what people get up to under the "christian" umbrella. You might find the Free Jinger forum interesting. People there talk about christian fundamentalism in all it's short comings, with a huge emphasis on the Duggars and the quiverfull movement. Some fringe groups discussed on that site use the bible to portray BDSM as "christian domestic discipline" and justify group sex. (it's polygamy! Just like in the OT!) There's a christian lid to fit every pot, I guess. I was reading the school curriculum of the home schooling of the Duggar children and I don't think we should be blaming Josh but more his parents for what they taught their children. www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/22/unbelievable-the-duggars-alleged-homeschool-curriculum-calls-sexual-abuse-a-gift-image/My sister who sent me that blog has 4 children and all of them are part of the quiverful movement. My sister home schooled all her children until the upper grades then they went to a very conservative Christian school. Now all my nieces and nephew home school their children. I wonder what curriculum they used now that I see what is out there. Maybe the curriculum is more restricted in Canada, but I somehow don't think so. I attended my youngest nieces grad from the Christian school and all the principal could talk about was sending out 3 blood brides for Christ into the world. There were only 3 girls graduating that year, small school. I agree. The kids don't know anything different, although once they get to be a certain age and have been exposed to "the world" I feel they have a responsibility to figure things out for themselves.
The thing that I find sad and a little amusing is that somewhere along the way, someone made a lifestyle choice and decided to use a religion to justify that choice and impose it on others. That is what Bill Gothard did with ATI and IBLP (the brand of Christianity the Duggars follow.) For instance, you know how the Duggar women all have their hair down and curled around their faces? That hairstyle is actually encouraged by leadership as a method of "framing the countenance (face)" and seems to be Bill Gothard's physical preference. The high, babyish voice the women use is also encouraged for female adherents.
I'm not saying folks shouldn't be able dress or talk or wear their hair however they want, or prefer certain sexual partners or practices over others (as long as it's legal!) But it gets weird when a religious leader tries to impose his preferences on people as the only way to please God. That's the feeling I'm getting from the blog post: It's just BDSM stuff translated into Christian as "biblical gender roles".
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Post by rational on May 23, 2015 16:41:47 GMT -5
I agree. The kids don't know anything different, although once they get to be a certain age and have been exposed to "the world" I feel they have a responsibility to figure things out for themselves. I don't think so. Give me a child until he is seven, and I will show you the manJesuit maximOne of the possible disadvantages of home schooling is the single point of view.
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