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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 12:21:14 GMT -5
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Post by SharonArnold on May 20, 2015 13:55:11 GMT -5
On the weekend I watched an episode of The Learning Channel's "Submissive Wives Guide to Marriage". Interesting that a show like this is also a product of our times. But I think there is a conservatism to parts of the US, that one does not necessarily encounter in Canada. In the show, I found the female of the couple who had been practicing the submissive marriage thing, rather calculating and manipulative. At least parts of their relationship almost seemed more like a business transaction than anything. But isn't there an old saying about marriage being a form of prostitution? That thought crossed my mind several times as I watched. As far as the couple in the episode that was being introduced to the concept of a submissive marriage was concerned, it was turning out to be a positive thing. However, if one does not have a job, getting out of bed in the morning and learning to do a few things throughout the day that make you a somewhat contributing human being (I.e., feed your kids, clean your house, etc), is bound to have a positive effect on one's life. It would not have had to be framed within the "submissive wife" concept.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 14:52:38 GMT -5
Wow! I hope this guy is not taken too seriously. He's had 15 years experience of marriage, and that includes a divorce and remarriage. I hope he makes his views clear to any woman before she marries him. It seems that he views a wife as a 24/7 prostitute. A man should take sex from his wife? Even if she yields grudgingly? What kind of a relationship is that? The issue being discussed here is about whether a man should take sex from his wife IF and ONLY IF she yields to his request for sex, even though she does so grudgingly and is not really in the mood, or does not feel he has earned it.
...if she yields (even grudgingly), you ought to take it. Do not feel bad and don’t let her make you think you being selfish for wanting sex with her, when the truth from God’s perspective is that she is the one being both rebellious and selfish.
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Post by blacksheep on May 20, 2015 15:23:14 GMT -5
On the other hand, (if the OT account is to be believed), look what happened when Sarai got her handmaiden to fill in for her with Abram....and the whole world is still paying for that one today.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 16:31:12 GMT -5
my first thought was what happens when the wife is in the mood but the husband is not. there is not a lot a husband can do if hes is not in the mood....
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:17:43 GMT -5
On the weekend I watched an episode of The Learning Channel's "Submissive Wives Guide to Marriage". Interesting that a show like this is also a product of our times. But I think there is a conservatism to parts of the US, that one does not necessarily encounter in Canada. In the show, I found the female of the couple who had been practicing the submissive marriage thing, rather calculating and manipulative. At least parts of their relationship almost seemed more like a business transaction than anything. But isn't there an old saying about marriage being a form of prostitution? That thought crossed my mind several times as I watched. As far as the couple in the episode that was being introduced to the concept of a submissive marriage was concerned, it was turning out to be a positive thing. However, if one does not have a job, getting out of bed in the morning and learning to do a few things throughout the day that make you a somewhat contributing human being (I.e., feed your kids, clean your house, etc), is bound to have a positive effect on one's life. It would not have had to be framed within the "submissive wife" concept. No, taking care of children and cleaning the environment one lives in does not at all mean submissive. It's practical and useful and something I did all the time when there was no man around. I think women being the weaker sex and owned by men for a long time had to find other ways to have some power and unfortunately it was likely manipulation and sex they used. That is why it makes more sense to have an equal and respectful relationship so that one doesn't feel like they need to use those techniques. An open and healthy relationship doesn't need to use manipulation to balance things out. I have noticed one of my sisters that believes she needs to be submissive uses a passive-aggressive type stance. She makes it look like she is submissive but then does things that 'just happen accidentally'.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:31:46 GMT -5
Wow! I hope this guy is not taken too seriously. He's had 15 years experience of marriage, and that includes a divorce and remarriage. I hope he makes his views clear to any woman before she marries him. It seems that he views a wife as a 24/7 prostitute. A man should take sex from his wife? Even if she yields grudgingly? What kind of a relationship is that? The issue being discussed here is about whether a man should take sex from his wife IF and ONLY IF she yields to his request for sex, even though she does so grudgingly and is not really in the mood, or does not feel he has earned it.
...if she yields (even grudgingly), you ought to take it. Do not feel bad and don’t let her make you think you being selfish for wanting sex with her, when the truth from God’s perspective is that she is the one being both rebellious and selfish.Most everything he said made me just want to puke! Talk about using the bible to justify abuse. I agree with your assessment that he seems to view wives as 24/7 prostitutes. It's only grudgingly okay to not make her have sex if she respectfully and submissively asks for a delay. Right. I predict another divorce in his future ...
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:32:25 GMT -5
On the other hand, (if the OT account is to be believed), look what happened when Sarai got her handmaiden to fill in for her with Abram....and the whole world is still paying for that one today. That is true! ha!
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:35:51 GMT -5
my first thought was what happens when the wife is in the mood but the husband is not. there is not a lot a husband can do if hes is not in the mood.... Well it does say and he quotes Paul, that the husband also should not withhold sex from the wife so.... If she wants sex then he has to do something or he's breaking the rules too. Which is why this whole thing is impractical as well as looney tunes imo. I wonder though, if he respectful and is submissive enough in his mannerisms when he asks to not have sex that she may grant him a delay...
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Post by matisse on May 20, 2015 18:57:55 GMT -5
my first thought was what happens when the wife is in the mood but the husband is not. there is not a lot a husband can do if hes is not in the mood.... Nice try! There are plenty of ways for a man to give a woman sexual pleasure even if not all of his body parts are cooperating.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 20:13:22 GMT -5
my first thought was what happens when the wife is in the mood but the husband is not. there is not a lot a husband can do if hes is not in the mood.... These days, he can pop a pill Wally.
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jj
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Post by jj on May 21, 2015 2:41:37 GMT -5
What a load of bs! The man who wrote that would beneit greatly from some more education, travel and general life experience to broaden his pitifully narrow mind!
On another note I find it scary that such attitudes still exist in some circles.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 3:36:02 GMT -5
Is that blog for real? That's an outrageous twisting of the scriptures. How could anybody seriously think that kind of behaviour is Christian? That verse doesn't mean a wife (or husband) has to be available on demand, 24/7.
If that man was in a loving relationship the question of 'demanding his rights' wouldn't even arise. Talk about a passion-killer!
"Wives obey your husbands" isn't going to work if you leave out the "husbands love your wives" part. A loving, considerate husband doesn't bully his wife or make unreasonable demands.
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Post by bubbles on May 21, 2015 4:15:15 GMT -5
Snow What disturbed me it was about having and taking sex. What about making love? When two people love each other they make love. Making love includes many things like tenderness romance flirting laughter sensitivity. Not demanding what you think belongs to you or your right to possess and use for your own selfish satisfaction. The communion of sexual intimacy is something that needs to be communicated and discussed. Often women have a good reason not to just put it out. Overwork tiredness. Sickness. I think some men are selfish. Arrogant. A man who really cares will make sure the woman is pleasured first then I am told his pleasure is increased 100 fold because she responds well. Mutual satisfaction and gratification is how it should be so that both are fulfilled. Not one making demands on the other.
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Post by ellie on May 21, 2015 8:48:41 GMT -5
I am really annoyed now. This is disgraceful.
Wonder how many people enjoy sex while aware that their partner is not in the mood? Sounds awfully close to rape if you ask me.
Some weird stuff in here about earning sex as well.
Good grief.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 9:00:27 GMT -5
I am really annoyed now. This is disgraceful. Wonder how many people enjoy sex while aware that their partner is not in the mood? Sounds awfully close to rape if you ask me. Some weird stuff in here about earning sex as well. Good grief. Yes, it totally sounds like violation. And he sounds like a complete nutter.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 21, 2015 9:23:32 GMT -5
I can't believe anyone would write something like that, then publish it. Then act so serious and authoritarian answering the comments. Pretty narcissistic IMO.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 21, 2015 9:37:02 GMT -5
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Post by rational on May 21, 2015 9:49:50 GMT -5
Most everything he said made me just want to puke! Talk about using the bible to justify abuse. I agree with your assessment that he seems to view wives as 24/7 prostitutes. It's only grudgingly okay to not make her have sex if she respectfully and submissively asks for a delay. Right. I predict another divorce in his future ... I don't think he was using the bible to justify his behavior. The bible was doing that on its own. The text is there. People today expend a lot of effort explaining why the literal text of bible does not need to be followed to the letter. I Corinthians 7:4-5 is quite clear. Of course, assigning a 'higher' meaning is one way out of following along.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 11:13:47 GMT -5
Is that blog for real? That's an outrageous twisting of the scriptures. How could anybody seriously think that kind of behaviour is Christian? That verse doesn't mean a wife (or husband) has to be available on demand, 24/7. If that man was in a loving relationship the question of 'demanding his rights' wouldn't even arise. Talk about a passion-killer! "Wives obey your husbands" isn't going to work if you leave out the "husbands love your wives" part. A loving, considerate husband doesn't bully his wife or make unreasonable demands. It is for real and what really saddens me is it was sent to me by one of my sisters who believes this stuff. My birth family are Baptists and Creationists and are constantly trying to convert me and help me see the error of my ways. So this really struck home for me just what they do believe. I don't ask much because over the time since I met them, they have let me know some of the stuff they believe and I'm not sure I want to know. This one really bothered me so I thought I would share it here and see what other Christians believe this, if any.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 11:15:45 GMT -5
Snow What disturbed me it was about having and taking sex. What about making love? When two people love each other they make love. Making love includes many things like tenderness romance flirting laughter sensitivity. Not demanding what you think belongs to you or your right to possess and use for your own selfish satisfaction. The communion of sexual intimacy is something that needs to be communicated and discussed. Often women have a good reason not to just put it out. Overwork tiredness. Sickness. I think some men are selfish. Arrogant. A man who really cares will make sure the woman is pleasured first then I am told his pleasure is increased 100 fold because she responds well. Mutual satisfaction and gratification is how it should be so that both are fulfilled. Not one making demands on the other. You nailed it Bubbles! Exactly, what about love? No self respecting man should feel good about having to demand sex anyway.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 11:18:18 GMT -5
Yes, I get things like this from them occasionally when they think I could learn something I guess. They usually don't comment and I have got so I don't respond. These kinds of posts have gotten less over time, but I still receive the odd one. This one was very disturbing for me. Thank you also, for the link Jesse. Good to see this isn't the norm.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 11:24:19 GMT -5
Most everything he said made me just want to puke! Talk about using the bible to justify abuse. I agree with your assessment that he seems to view wives as 24/7 prostitutes. It's only grudgingly okay to not make her have sex if she respectfully and submissively asks for a delay. Right. I predict another divorce in his future ... I don't think he was using the bible to justify his behavior. The bible was doing that on its own. The text is there. People today expend a lot of effort explaining why the literal text of bible does not need to be followed to the letter. I Corinthians 7:4-5 is quite clear. Of course, assigning a 'higher' meaning is one way out of following along. Yes, I see what you mean. I found it quite disturbing. Maybe I'm more sensitive to this kind of thing because of my background which is why I posted it here to see if I was over reacting. I really wonder how anyone can believe this stuff, but the sister that sent it to me does believe she is to be submissive in her role in the family. She thankfully is married to a really nice guy who hopefully doesn't take advantage of her beliefs.
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Post by withlove on May 21, 2015 16:01:53 GMT -5
The title in the link is enough to make me ill so I can't read it. Selfish is so not the correct word.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 17:20:36 GMT -5
The title in the link is enough to make me ill so I can't read it. Selfish is so not the correct word. Know what you mean. I just about didn't but since it was from my sister I thought I had better know what I was talking about when she decides to 'discuss' it with me. It was hard for me for personal reasons and it absolutely saddens me that my sister thinks its the way things should be. I truly don't know what to say when she brings the subject up, and she will.
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Post by fixit on May 21, 2015 18:55:36 GMT -5
Snow, I think the answer to the question asked in the link is-a-husband-selfish-for-having-sex-with-his-wife-when-she-is-not-the-mood/ is YES!
Insisting on it will likely keep her not in the mood, and that can only be bad for the relationship.
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Post by withlove on May 21, 2015 22:08:11 GMT -5
The title in the link is enough to make me ill so I can't read it. Selfish is so not the correct word. Know what you mean. I just about didn't but since it was from my sister I thought I had better know what I was talking about when she decides to 'discuss' it with me. It was hard for me for personal reasons and it absolutely saddens me that my sister thinks its the way things should be. I truly don't know what to say when she brings the subject up, and she will. Sometimes even the people closest to us are daft about how painful certain topics can be, despite knowing things we have experienced...I'm sorry. It really sucks to have to deal with that on top of dealing with the core issue. Something that would hurt less if it came from an aquaintence--although that kind of thing can make us realize how little closeness we actually have with people who should be important, and we should be important for. You don't have to discuss it with her just because you feel bad for her situation...she needs to understand it's an off-limits topic for you. Maybe that would get her thinking to help herself anyway... Ugh. This sounds so bossy! Just mean to let you know I empathize.
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Post by rational on May 22, 2015 6:27:47 GMT -5
It would appear that there are some people who support this kind of thinking. It is what they believe. If the couple is happy to live in this kind of environment why are so many people upset?
There are beliefs that many hold that seem strange to those who do not hold those beliefs.
Other than the fact that some do not support this view and believe that the bible, while actually supporting this belief, means something different to them what do people find so revolting about this?
I don't support it in any way but if they are adults who believe this is the way they want to structure their lives why speak out against their beliefs?
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