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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 18:30:37 GMT -5
Mary, 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 8 support the physical resurrection of Jesus. I'm not sure what you are pointing out in these passages. In fact, I'd pay particular attention to 1 Corinthians 15:12-18. If Christ isn't raised from the dead (his physical body), then your faith is vain. What you suppose happened to his body? Did it remain in the grave? Was it stolen by his disciples? Did it evaporate? I'm not being snide. I'm seriously wondering what you think happened to his physical body. And, how do you get a resurrection if the body isn't raised? You also did not explain Luke 24:39. What was the big deal about the disciples running to the tomb and finding it empty if Jesus hadn't physically rose from the dead? Why did the Roman soldiers take the money from the priests and perpetuate the lie that the disciples had stolen the body? Why the empty tomb? What's so hard to believe that Jesus rose physically from the dead?
I'm not saying he didn't physically rise then, but it does say that he wasn't for risen from the dead until after the deciples saw him rise for the third time. Or is that a lie in the bible? I'm talking about his second coming! Everyone is waiting for him to rise in the flesh. We are the flesh he is risen in! As i said, whether it will happen naturally well I don't know but maybe we will be alive to see. But I believe he has risen spiritually! Also I don't believe that he is in the flesh in heaven. I believe he is in the spirit! Romans 8 refers to death to self! Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. It sounded as if you didn't think he hadn't physically rose from the dead. John 21:14 reads, "This was the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after he had risen from the dead." The KJV uses archaic language that can be misunderstood this day and age. Romans 8 isn't speaking of the 'body' when it's speaking of 'the flesh.' It's speaking of sin. It's speaking of the fruit of the flesh. One key verse is Romans 8:6, "For the mind of the flesh is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." God doesn't expect us to give up the physical body. The physical body isn't the problem. The problem is our mentality. Are we minding the things of the flesh (sin?) or are we minding the things of Christ. We can be 'out of the flesh' even when we are alive here on earth. "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if the spirit of God dwells in you." Romans 8:9. We have to be renewed by the spirit of God. This happens when we are born again. We aren't expected to shed the literal flesh of our bodies to escape from 'the flesh.' Just as Jesus was 'in the spirit' when he was alive, and just as John the Baptist had the spirit before he was even born, we can have the spirit now, even though we are clothes in flesh.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 18:32:31 GMT -5
This isn't my opinion, but it's the bible's opinion: the human body of Jesus is in heaven, while he is spiritually everywhere. Just as we can't comprehend how God is everywhere, yet it's said He's in heaven, so also we can't comprehend how Jesus is everywhere, yet he's physically in heaven. You don't have to understand it to believe it. I don't understand physics, but I know physics is a fact. I don't understand advanced algebra, but I know it's a fact. I don't understand how this computer works that I'm operating, but I know that this communication is a fact. I don't understand a lot of things, but I go with them anyway. You don't have to understand this stuff. But you do have to believe what the bible says, especially when it comes to things so fundamental as the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. That was a central theme of his whole message, MaryH. I think that the real question isn't HOW he can be physically in heaven, but WHERE IS HIS BODY if he isn't physical?
Mark you have to believe what you will, but I don't believe there is any flesh in heaven. Flesh is an abomination to God. God is spirit, so is Christ. This is how I believe from my heart. You must follow yours! Right I'm off to bed, it's 12.30 am Have a good sleep, Maryhig. Pleasant dreams.
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Post by maryhig on May 26, 2015 18:37:12 GMT -5
I'm not saying he didn't physically rise then, but it does say that he wasn't for risen from the dead until after the deciples saw him rise for the third time. Or is that a lie in the bible? I'm talking about his second coming! Everyone is waiting for him to rise in the flesh. We are the flesh he is risen in! As i said, whether it will happen naturally well I don't know but maybe we will be alive to see. But I believe he has risen spiritually! Also I don't believe that he is in the flesh in heaven. I believe he is in the spirit! Romans 8 refers to death to self! Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. It sounded as if you didn't think he hadn't physically rose from the dead. John 21:14 reads, "This was the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after he had risen from the dead." The KJV uses archaic language that can be misunderstood this day and age. Romans 8 isn't speaking of the 'body' when it's speaking of 'the flesh.' It's speaking of sin. It's speaking of the fruit of the flesh. One key verse is Romans 8:6, "For the mind of the flesh is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." God doesn't expect us to give up the physical body. The physical body isn't the problem. The problem is our mentality. Are we minding the things of the flesh (sin?) or are we minding the things of Christ. We can be 'out of the flesh' even when we are alive here on earth. "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if the spirit of God dwells in you." Romans 8:9. We have to be renewed by the spirit of God. This happens when we are born again. We aren't expected to shed the literal flesh of our bodies to escape from 'the flesh.' Just as Jesus was 'in the spirit' when he was alive, and just as John the Baptist had the spirit before he was even born, we can have the spirit now, even though we are clothes in flesh.
Mark before I go, I know that the flesh is sin! So it will never enter the kingdom of God. In any form! But the kingdom can enter into flesh when it is cleansed from sin! Otherwise Gods holy spirit can't enter into our hearts. Goodnight, it's been interesting speaking with you
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 18:39:47 GMT -5
What's so hard to believe that Jesus rose physically from the dead?
Maybe physics? Which, and I have this on good authority, while we may not understand it, we know it's a fact. God created physics. He can do what He wants with the laws of physics. There's so much that science, scientists, and Christians don't understand about the laws of nature. I don't believe that physical resurrection is contrary to the laws of science. All things in God's own timing.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 18:41:53 GMT -5
It sounded as if you didn't think he hadn't physically rose from the dead. John 21:14 reads, "This was the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after he had risen from the dead." The KJV uses archaic language that can be misunderstood this day and age. Romans 8 isn't speaking of the 'body' when it's speaking of 'the flesh.' It's speaking of sin. It's speaking of the fruit of the flesh. One key verse is Romans 8:6, "For the mind of the flesh is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." God doesn't expect us to give up the physical body. The physical body isn't the problem. The problem is our mentality. Are we minding the things of the flesh (sin?) or are we minding the things of Christ. We can be 'out of the flesh' even when we are alive here on earth. "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if the spirit of God dwells in you." Romans 8:9. We have to be renewed by the spirit of God. This happens when we are born again. We aren't expected to shed the literal flesh of our bodies to escape from 'the flesh.' Just as Jesus was 'in the spirit' when he was alive, and just as John the Baptist had the spirit before he was even born, we can have the spirit now, even though we are clothes in flesh.
Mark before I go, I know that the flesh is sin! So it will never enter the kingdom of God. In any form! But the kingdom can enter into flesh when it is cleansed from sin! Otherwise Gods holy spirit can't enter into our hearts. Goodnight, it's been interesting speaking with you Good night, Maryhig. I do understand what you are saying. You've given me a lot to think about also.
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Post by Gene on May 26, 2015 18:45:18 GMT -5
Maybe physics? Which, and I have this on good authority, while we may not understand it, we know it's a fact. God created physics. He can do what He wants with the laws of physics. There's so much that science, scientists, and Christians don't understand about the laws of nature. I don't believe that physical resurrection is contrary to the laws of science. All things in God's own timing.
I understand.
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Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 5:10:04 GMT -5
Do we believe God can put a body back together than has been cremated? Yes, completely. God who has created us can do anything. Plenty of Christians (including 2x2 Christians) have been cremated by choice, by country law or by circumstance (burned in a fire, burned at the stake...) Great! Then you won't have a problem with Jesus being a spirit in heaven, rather than a man in heaven.
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Post by Mary on May 27, 2015 6:05:40 GMT -5
Don't know about Ross but I wouldn't have a problem with it but Scripture seems to say otherwise.
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Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 12:45:27 GMT -5
Great! Then you won't have a problem with Jesus being a spirit in heaven, rather than a man in heaven. According to the book of Revelation chapters 1-3 Jesus Christ didn't appeared a spirit, which we can't see in heaven but a Man/God in His glorious form/body. John saw and heard the voice of Jesus speaking to him. Rev. 1:10-19
On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.“Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
So fixit and Maryh. did John the apostle see the Spirit of Jesus in heaven or a heavenly bodily resurrection of Jesus in chapter 1-3?
Clearly John didn't physically "see" everything he wrote about in the book of Revelation. Do you think he physically "saw" the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God? (It was 1400 miles, or 2,200 kilometres, square).
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Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 13:07:04 GMT -5
Clearly John didn't physically "see" everything he wrote about in the book of Revelation. Do you think he physically "saw" the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God?(It was 1400 miles, or 2,200 kilometres, square). ~~ We will find out when we get there. So, you think you think it was a spirit of Jesus? Wow! I didn't know spirit can wear clothes, and have physical appearances of a human. You wrote that John didn't physically "SEE" everything but John said he saw someone like the Son of man... John was there and you were NOT.
Well, we read 24 elders bow and worship God in heaven. Who do you know that can see spirits bow down?Who do you know that can see a voice speaking to him? Do you think a man holds seven stars in his right hand, and a sword coming out his mouth?
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Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 18:50:43 GMT -5
Clearly John saw a man with a physical body. He even felt his hand on him. We are not talking about the New Jerusalem, we are saying does Jesus look like a Spirit or a man with a heavenly body. Jesus touched and talked to him. Even if Jesus hadn't touched John, John still saw what Jesus looked like the same as he saw what the New Jerusalem looked like. There's a lot of metaphor in the book of Revelation. Do you think everything in the Revelation happened on the Isle of Patmos?
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 19:05:50 GMT -5
God created physics. He can do what He wants with the laws of physics. There's so much that science, scientists, and Christians don't understand about the laws of nature. I don't believe that physical resurrection is contrary to the laws of science. All things in God's own timing.
I understand. Oh good, now can you explain it to me?
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 19:07:45 GMT -5
Clearly John didn't physically "see" everything he wrote about in the book of Revelation. Do you think he physically "saw" the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God?(It was 1400 miles, or 2,200 kilometres, square). ~~ We will find out when we get there. So, you think you think it was a spirit of Jesus? Wow! I didn't know spirit can wear clothes, and have physical appearances of a human. You wrote that John didn't physically "SEE" everything but John said he saw someone like the Son of man... John was there and you were NOT.
Well, we read 24 elders bow and worship God in heaven. Who do you know that can see spirits bow down?Sure they can. Ever heard of ghosts? You do believe in ghosts, don't you?
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Post by Gene on May 27, 2015 19:08:45 GMT -5
Oh good, now can you explain it to me? Can I get back to you on that?
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Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 19:20:30 GMT -5
So, you think you think it was a spirit of Jesus? Wow! I didn't know spirit can wear clothes, and have physical appearances of a human. You wrote that John didn't physically "SEE" everything but John said he saw someone like the Son of man... John was there and you were NOT.
Well, we read 24 elders bow and worship God in heaven. Who do you know that can see spirits bow down? Sure they can. Ever heard of ghosts? You do believe in ghosts, don't you? I think it's aliens that Nate is an authority on. Do aliens have ghosts Nathan?
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 19:27:53 GMT -5
Sure they can. Ever heard of ghosts? You do believe in ghosts, don't you? I think it's aliens that Nate is an authority on. Do aliens have ghosts Nathan? True. It just seemed somewhat related so....
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Post by snow on May 28, 2015 9:55:14 GMT -5
Nate the question wasn't about what was in heaven, but whether spirits wore clothes, remember? Ghosts wear clothes and they are spirits, right?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 10:36:09 GMT -5
Jesus did say that he had flesh and bone after his resurrection, and the disciples touched his pierced hands and side after his resurrection. Either he was 'pulling the wool over their eyes' by making him think he was physical when he was really a spirit, or he was really a physical man. I'm not attempting to pick on Maryhig, but I think that perhaps I'm not understanding her thoughts on this. Does Maryhig think that the physical body of Jesus was changed from matter to spirit? Or does she think that the body of Jesus is still dead; or evaporated perhaps? I'm truly curious as to what she thinks to the physical body of Jesus. I understand where she is coming from. I didn't mean to be too confrontational with her on this. I truly do wish to understand where she's coming from on this matter.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 10:40:52 GMT -5
Sure they can. Ever heard of ghosts? You do believe in ghosts, don't you? I think it's aliens that Nate is an authority on. Do aliens have ghosts Nathan? Ghosts are spirits. The KJV uses the word 'ghost'. I'm not so sure that spirit is purely non-physical. We think of spirit as being purely non-physical because traditionally we say 'we can't see a spirit.' But, that's not necessarily true. If water can be physical (ice), fluid (water) or vapor (steam/fog) then perhaps a spirit can change according to its environment. That's why I'm wondering what Maryhig thinks about the body of Jesus in the tomb. Does she think that physical body of Jesus was spiritualized? I'd have no problem with that idea.
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Post by snow on May 28, 2015 10:45:58 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MatterMatter is made of atoms. Then you have quantum physics where particles can be a wave when not observed. The bible clearly is not a complete book and so much was not understood when it was written. Not sure why that is because God is supposed to be all knowing, but there it is.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 11:44:25 GMT -5
Not sure what point you're making, Snow. No one truly understands physics or any of the laws of nature. If they claim to, they're fibbing. The last I recall the bible was written so that people could approach God in. His way. It wasn't written to be a science book, or to teach physics. No one is trying knock science here. But, we are t silly enough to attempt to limit the laws that God created either. Scientist have no firm comprehension about their field. I had to smile when I read on the internet news this morning that Lucy may not be my mother after all.
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Post by snow on May 28, 2015 12:22:04 GMT -5
I don't know why they wear clothes Nate, but all the pictures posted of ghosts have them wearing clothes and you said spirits couldn't wear clothes. All I was pointing out was that spirits do wear clothes because ghosts wear clothes. Wasn't talking about Moses or Elijah because I have no idea what anyone saw if anything at all. Just to be clear, I don't believe in ghosts either but was trying to discuss this at a the level where people do believe in ghosts and other spirits such as angels etc.
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