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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 18:47:21 GMT -5
Mary posted a link to the CARM website where it's claimed that Jesus will eternally remain as a man.
My understanding is that Trinitarian dogma makes Jesus God so that he can be worshipped.
Yet they've also made him eternally man.
I'm puzzled that it's considered OK to worship a Trinitarian godhead that includes a human component, yet it's unacceptable to worship Jesus the son of God without making him God.
Do all Trinitarians believe Jesus will eternally remain as a man?
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 18:53:49 GMT -5
Here's Mary's post with the quote from the CARM website. The underlining on Mary's post is mine. From the CARM website: The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error.Trinitarians came up with a convoluted theory that they admit is a mystery, then condemn those who stick with a simpler Biblical understanding and call it "human reasoning"!!! The CARM website which you refer to believes in the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the Word (God) who became a man. He added human nature to His divine nature. He is both human and divine and, therefore, has two natures. Yet, He is one person--not two. He is not part God and part man. He is presently a man, one person, with two natures where one nature is wholly God and the other wholly man. (Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:5-13; John 1:1-3, 14). Jesus will eternally remain as a man and intercedes for us eternally as a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Heb. 6:20; 7:25). Is there anything a professing person can find wrong in the statement of beliefs which CARM adheres to? carm.org/statement-faith
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 20:26:24 GMT -5
Mary posted a link to the CARM website where it's claimed that Jesus will eternally remain as a man. My understanding is that Trinitarian dogma makes Jesus God so that he can be worshipped. Yet they've also made him eternally man. I'm puzzled that it's considered OK to worship a Trinitarian godhead that includes a human component, yet it's unacceptable to worship Jesus the son of God without making him God. Do all Trinitarians believe Jesus will eternally remain as a man? Trinitarian dogma really? You seem to categorise every belief that doesn't accord with your own as Trinitarian dogma! Of course, you're allowed to do that It might have something to do with the incarnation The following link may interest some. matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2011/05/who-is-jesus-now/From your link: Who is Jesus now? He is truly God and truly man, and so one day like him we will be truly human. What a great hope!Do you actually believe this stuff Ross??? Do you worship someone who is truly man???
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 0:16:39 GMT -5
From your link: Who is Jesus now? He is truly God and truly man, and so one day like him we will be truly human. What a great hope!Do you actually believe this stuff Ross??? Do you worship someone who is truly man??? Yes, just like you do every week when you sing this hymn or the many others that worship Jesus who is truly man and truly God. “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) Probably the only difference on this point between you and I is that I will admit to doing it. You think I'm wrong to worship the man Christ Jesus without including him in a man-made trinity. I think you're wrong to worship a Trinity that is part human. I guess that makes us even.
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 0:27:14 GMT -5
Yes, just like you do every week when you sing this hymn or the many others that worship Jesus who is truly man and truly God. “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) Probably the only difference on this point between you and I is that I will admit to doing it. You think I'm wrong to worship the man Christ Jesus without including him in a man-made trinity. I think you're wrong to worship a Trinity that is part human. I guess that makes us even. And I'm confused lol! I've never heard that Jesus is in the flesh in heaven and is a man! Where is that in the bible?
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 0:50:56 GMT -5
You think I'm wrong to worship the man Christ Jesus without including him in a man-made trinity. I think you're wrong to worship a Trinity that is part human. I guess that makes us even. And I'm confused lol! I've never heard that Jesus is in the flesh in heaven and is a man! Where is that in the bible? Don't feel bad for being confused - the trinity is "a mystery". We are not called to comprehend, simply to believe. I think what they're saying is that one of a three-person trinity changed forever to became 100% God and 100% man. It seems strange that folks worship a trinity that is 100% man - or is it that one of the three persons is 100% man?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 0:57:50 GMT -5
And I'm confused lol! I've never heard that Jesus is in the flesh in heaven and is a man! Where is that in the bible? Don't feel bad for being confused - the trinity is "a mystery". We are not called to comprehend, simply to believe. I think what they're saying is that one of a three-person trinity changed forever to became 100% God and 100% man. It seems strange that folks worship a trinity that is 100% man - or is it that one of the three persons is 100% man? Dunno, but I've never heard anything like that before do the people who believe in the trinity believe Mary is the mother of God also? Because they also believe that Jesus is God like the RCC? So they must do? It all does get a bit confusing doesn't it!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 1:35:43 GMT -5
Don't feel bad for being confused - the trinity is "a mystery". We are not called to comprehend, simply to believe. I think what they're saying is that one of a three-person trinity changed forever to became 100% God and 100% man. It seems strange that folks worship a trinity that is 100% man - or is it that one of the three persons is 100% man? I've never met anyone who worships a trinity! I've met a lot of people who worship God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit though. Christians all over the world do this! But you say that they are the trinity because they are all God! So you worship the trinity? How can you say you don't?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 1:37:12 GMT -5
Before Jesus incarnation as the Son of man, he was God in heaven with the Father before creation of the Universe as John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Prior Jesus earthly birth he exist as God. After Jesus incarnation as the Son of man and the Son of God then he became eternally man. Jesus has two natures within Him as God and man... Now, Eternally as God and Man.
God the Father has NEVER lived in a man body to receive a human nature like Jesus did so He/the Father is only Eternally God.
So Nathan, you think Jesus is in the flesh in heaven?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 1:47:33 GMT -5
You think I'm wrong to worship the man Christ Jesus without including him in a man-made trinity. I think you're wrong to worship a Trinity that is part human. I guess that makes us even. I like your way with words I think you or anyone is are wrong to worship someone - whether human or divine or both - who they believe not to be God. My view is based on umpteen dozen Bible verses but particularly Exodus 34:14 and Luke 4:8. Like most Christians I know, I worship God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yes, the Son is incarnate - there shouldn't be any dispute about that. It's a fact that I can't change! And a crucial part of salvation! So, a couple of questions: Do you worship the divine and everlasting Lord Jesus? If yes, how do you deal with the Bible verses that I've mentioned - ignore them and hope they go away? If no, do you simply not sing those hymns each week and encourage others to stop when they get to those parts. It would make your hymn singing interesting but it would be consistent with a "no" answer. Both of those verses in Luke and exodus are telling us to worship God not Jesus! Also Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Were told to worship God and him alone!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 1:50:32 GMT -5
Dunno, but I've never heard anything like that before do the people who believe in the trinity believe Mary is the mother of God also? Because they also believe that Jesus is God like the RCC? So they must do? It all does get a bit confusing doesn't it! Don't be confused - 99.9% of Christians worship God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's not an RCC thing - it's Christian. The Son took on flesh - a fairly important part in salvation history! Yes, if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Mary was Jesus' natural mother, it should be fairly evident that Mary is the natural mother of God in the flesh. No different that any other mother except she was favoured by the Lord God and was chosen by the Father, was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit and bore and gave birth to the Son. No wonder Mary could say to the Lord: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour, because He has looked with favour on the humble condition of His slave. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed, because the Mighty One has done great things for me, and His name is holy. I'm a Christian in that I follow Christ, and believe in God and love him with all my heart. Not because I believe in the trinity!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 1:52:27 GMT -5
So Nathan, you think Jesus is in the flesh in heaven? Yes, Jesus has the resurrection body with flesh which we/Christians will all receive the same type of resurrection bodies when He returns from the sky.
Jesus said to Thomas in John 20:26-28 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Nathan flesh and blood can't enter heaven. And how can Jesus enter into our hearts if he has a human body?
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 1:54:28 GMT -5
From your link: Who is Jesus now? He is truly God and truly man, and so one day like him we will be truly human. What a great hope!Do you actually believe this stuff Ross??? Do you worship someone who is truly man??? Yes, just like you do every week when you sing this hymn or the many others that worship Jesus who is truly man and truly God. “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) Probably the only difference on this point between you and I is that I will admit to doing it. Does that make me dishonest in your opinion?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:01:26 GMT -5
Nathan flesh and blood can't enter heaven. And how can Jesus enter into our hearts if he has a human body? This is NOT human flesh and blood body which he lived with for 33 1/2 yrs but Jesus has the Resurrection Body! that can appear and disappear at will, eat, and the disciples can touch him. This NEW resurrection body will NEVER die again. it doesn't have the ache and pains. Christians will receive the New Resurrection bodies when Jesus returns to earth to reign.What? What in earth? Well I've never heard that before. Only from the JWs
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:02:52 GMT -5
Nathan flesh and blood can't enter heaven. And how can Jesus enter into our hearts if he has a human body? This is NOT human flesh and blood body which he lived with for 33 1/2 yrs but Jesus has the Resurrection Body! that can appear and disappear at will, eat, and the disciples can touch him. This NEW resurrection body will NEVER die again. it doesn't have the ache and pains. Christians will receive the New Resurrection bodies when Jesus returns to earth to reign.What do you think the new resurrected bodies are? Have you no understanding Nathan? You've been a leader of your people!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:07:40 GMT -5
Every Christian I have ever met believes that Jesus is returning to rule and reign on earth for 1,000 years. Jesus has returned Mary, Jesus said it will be fulfilled in that generation and Jesus doesn't lie!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:25:30 GMT -5
Jesus has returned Mary, Jesus said it will be fulfilled in that generation and Jesus doesn't lie! Jesus hasn't return to reign the 1000 yrs on the earth with His people, YET!.... But when He does return, EVERY eye will SEE Jesus him appear in the sky! even him that pierce him.
Revelation 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! AmenSo he lied when he said all will be fulfilled in that generation then?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:37:49 GMT -5
So he lied when he said all will be fulfilled in that generation then? Jesus doesn't lie... Most of the time, we don't understand what he was saying... Can you show me the verses you think Jesus lied, and let us take a look at what he said there. Thanks.He doesn't lie Nathan, so he came back in that generation!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:43:56 GMT -5
He doesn't lie Nathan, so he came back in that generation! Show me the verses in the Bible, so we know what you're talking about.... Jesus came back in that generation. We know Jesus hasn't come back to reign with people on the earth for 1000 yrs YET!Hasn't he? So he's not in our hearts?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 2:59:12 GMT -5
Hasn't he? So he's not on our hearts? The Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit dwell in our hearts right now. I am talking about the DAY and time when Jesus will return to earth in his New Resurrection Body! to reign on the earth with his followers for 1000 yrs.
Paul wrote in I Cor. 15:23-28 But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
We are resurrected now, and we are raised with him when he is raised in our hearts. And we are born again thus being a new person. The old man has passed away and we start our new life in God. Nathan, I can explain all that, but I've already said too much. You must believe what is right in your heart!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 3:08:18 GMT -5
We are resurrected now, and we are raised with him when he is raised in our hearts. And we are born again thus being a new person. The old man has passed away and we start our new life in God. Nathan, I can explain all that, but I've already said too much. You must believe what is right in your heart! ~~ We received Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit in our hearts when we're born again. But We haven't received the New Resurrection bodies YET! We need the New Resurrection bodies to reign with Christ 1000 yrs and to live in heaven with the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. A thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years in the lord? What do you think he meant when he said that, that generation will not pass before all is fulfilled! I believe there is a natural and a spiritual meaning to the bible. You will believe what's right in your heart!
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 3:29:35 GMT -5
A thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years in the lord? What do you think he meant when he said that, that generation will not pass before all is fulfilled! I believe there is a natural and a spiritual meaning to the bible. You will believe what's right in your heart! I know the 1000 yrs reign could NOT be a literal the 1000 yrs as we humanly know it. However, the reigning of Christ and with His people on the earth will take place definitely! We don't know exactly how long the reigning part with human understanding but God know how long the time is.
Where do you get the verses and what was Jesus apply it to.... that generation will NOT pass before all is fulfilled?
Matthew 24:34 it's also in Luke Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. And I believe Jesus! Nathan I'm not getting into this with you, I've already said too much. It's an open forum. If I was face to face I would talk to you. But I'm not writing the deeper meanings of God on the internet. I've already said too much on here
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Post by Mary on May 19, 2015 5:28:47 GMT -5
I think saying something is a mystery does not mean they don't understand it. The trinity to me is easy to understand. I only know of 2 understandings of the trinity. Those who believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one being or those who believe the 3 are separate but together make God. God having 3 parts. The first is Catholic teaching and maybe Anglican. The second other mainstream churches. Baptist etc. From the CARM website: The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error.Trinitarians came up with a convoluted theory that they admit is a mystery, then condemn those who stick with a simpler Biblical understanding and call it "human reasoning"!!! Back to the opening post. fixit you are the one who first posted something from the CARM website. I had not heard of them until you quoted them.
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 5:32:36 GMT -5
Someone else posted from the CARM site first. Ross perhaps? This is where you posted that Jesus will remain eternally a man: Jesus Christ is the Word (God) who became a man. He added human nature to His divine nature. He is both human and divine and, therefore, has two natures. Yet, He is one person--not two. He is not part God and part man. He is presently a man, one person, with two natures where one nature is wholly God and the other wholly man. (Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:5-13; John 1:1-3, 14). Jesus will eternally remain as a man and intercedes for us eternally as a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Heb. 6:20; 7:25). Is there anything a professing person can find wrong in the statement of beliefs which CARM adheres to? carm.org/statement-faith
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 5:34:57 GMT -5
I still don't understand how "orthodox Christians" can justify worshipping a god who is 100% eternally a man.
Only God is to be worshipped, the Trinitarians say.
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 5:52:59 GMT -5
Jesus Christ is the Word (God) who became a man. He added human nature to His divine nature. He is both human and divine and, therefore, has two natures. Yet, He is one person--not two. He is not part God and part man. He is presently a man, one person, with two natures where one nature is wholly God and the other wholly man. (Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:5-13; John 1:1-3, 14). Jesus will eternally remain as a man and intercedes for us eternally as a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Heb. 6:20; 7:25). Is there anything a professing person can find wrong in the statement of beliefs which CARM adheres to? carm.org/statement-faithYes Mary. I don't believe Jesus will remain eternally 100% man. Do you?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 8:37:05 GMT -5
I know the 1000 yrs reign could NOT be a literal the 1000 yrs as we humanly know it. However, the reigning of Christ and with His people on the earth will take place definitely! We don't know exactly how long the reigning part with human understanding but God know how long the time is.
Why do you not think it can be literally 1000 years? I don't see why it can't. And you believe a lot of stuff that I find impossible to swallow The description of the first resurrection in Revelations 20 makes it clear that those who don't worship the beast or have his mark will live and reign for a thousand years, and that the devil will be bound for those same 1000 years.
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Post by Mary on May 19, 2015 8:46:44 GMT -5
And he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker.
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