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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 24, 2015 15:12:55 GMT -5
Hot off the press! Just added to TTT: Account of Divisions & Purges in Alaska and Montana - involving Bob Ingram, Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather and Everett Swanson. First paragraphs... This Account concerns three brother Workers born and raised in the State of Montana: 1. John R. Starkweather, born in 1924, son of John and Katie Starkweather, entered the work in Montana in 1954, age 30; 2. E. Truitt Oyler, born in 1946, son of Enos and Bette Oyler, entered in the work in Montana in 1963, age 21; His first companion was John Starkweather; 3. Walter J. Oyler, Truitt’s oldest brother, was born in 1940, entered the work in Montana in 1961, when he was about 20 years old. All three men had entered the work in their native state and were preaching in Montana under the Overseer Tom Lyness. Tom was an Irishman who professed in Ireland in 1902, entered the work in 1903, and came to Canada in 1905. In 1915, Tom was the first Worker who began preaching in Montana where he stayed until his death in 1970, age 87 years. Tom and his sister Annie are buried in Manhattan, Montana and share the same tombstone. (View Tombstone) Upon Tom's death in 1970, the field of Montana and Northern Wyoming were combined with Oregon/ Southern Idaho under the responsibility of Howard Mooney. In 1967, when Truitt had been in the work about three years, he and his companion John were discussing the scripture. They were unaware that sister Worker (possibly Blanche Curtis) was also in the house overhearing them until she came into the room where they were talking. She was very upset and did not agree with their interpretation. From childhood on, these three men had sat in gospel missions held by early Workers, such as Tom Lyness, his sister Annie, Nellie Williams, Vernon Myers and others. According to sources who were in a position to know, but spoke to the author under the condition of anonymity, Truitt asserted they heard the doctrine the sister workers questioned preached by Tom Lyness and other early workers et. al. and that what the three men taught was no different; i.e. that Jesus was divine and could not sin. On the other hand, the sister Worker believed Jesus was human just like she was. Many but not all Friends and Workers believe that Jesus could have sinned and lost his salvation, but was only able to live a sinless life by the power of the Holy Spirit and suffering, self denial and by cutting off sinful thoughts and lust in his mind. This sister Worker became very determined that Truitt, Walter and John would be put out of the work and she eventually succeeded. They were accused of believing and teaching “false doctrine” also called “divisive doctrine.” Their alleged beliefs came to be commonly known as “Truitt’s Doctrine,” but few knew exactly what that doctrine really entailed. Truitt’s Doctrine was reported to have been some or all of the following: that Jesus was divine, that Jesus could not be tempted to sin, that Jesus was God, the doctrine of “Original Sin” related to the doctrine of “The Fall,” and perhaps more. Their beliefs will be discussed more fully below. To read the rest, click here: Chapter 29
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Post by Mary on Apr 24, 2015 17:51:48 GMT -5
It sounds like the Trinitarians are the ones being burned at the stake in the 2x2s. A bit like religious purging. One for the Je suis Charlie thread not to mention eaves dropping.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 18:40:01 GMT -5
Ah, the Tale Bearer is at it, again. And that's a Fact.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 19:07:29 GMT -5
So if something is a "fact" then it isn't a tale? Tale Bearers LOVE facts - that makes the tale juicy.
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Post by Gene on Apr 24, 2015 19:14:43 GMT -5
So if something is a "fact" then it isn't a tale? Tale Bearers LOVE facts - that makes the tale juicy. Bert, what do you see as the negatives about publishing the facts about the Truitt et. al. doctrine and its fallout?
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 24, 2015 19:23:23 GMT -5
Senior workers taught the Triune God in 1980-2015s. Leo Stancliff, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.Nate - did you read this part of Chapter 29 written by Everett? Are you sure Everett was supposed to be included in your list above? FACTS OF CHRIST'S HUMAN NATURE by Everett Swanson, Bozeman Montana October 10, 1991 Heb 2:9 "Jesus was made a little lower than the angels." If he were only divine he would definitely have been on a higher level. Heb. 2:10 He was made "perfect through sufferings". Jesus was not ready made. In Lk. 2:50 he "increased". In Heb. 5:8 he "learned obedience", vs 9 "being made perfect". This is proof of a human nature because a process was taking place. Heb. 2:16 "Seed of Abraham". Gen. 1:12. Seed can only produce after its kind. He had the identical nature of Abraham which was human. Human life has human nature. Heb. 2:17 "Wherefore it behooved (essential) him to be made like unto his brethren". If he isn't like us in human nature he failed because he said he would be as us and so it happened. Heb. 2:18 He "suffered being tempted". God cannot be tempted James 1:13 but Christ could. He suffered because of human desire, and in all things, 4:15. Heb. 5:7 He prayed for himself that he would be saved from the 2nd death and was heard because he feared. When he took the human nature he could have lost his salvation, so he wept and prayed. Phil. 2:8 "He humbled himself and became obedient". If he was only spiritual this would be totally unnecessary 1 Tim. 2:5 The "man" Jesus Christ. This word in the G reek means human nature. Jesus called himself the Son of man. Mt. 4:1 The spirit wanted Jesus to be tempted. Satan tried for 40 days. Both God and Satan knew Jesus could be defeated but he conquered. Rev. 3:21 Jesus overcame after a struggle and wants us to also. We also can overcome in the struggle.
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Post by Mary on Apr 24, 2015 20:10:27 GMT -5
I also wonder about Nathan saying that Alan Richardson believes in the triune God. I have seen nothing of this. What has been posted is that he said Jesus was divine. Saying something is divine is not saying they are God or part of the triune God. The angels and all manner of heavenly things are divine but they are not God.
Oh please not!! not another thread on the trinity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 20:11:37 GMT -5
I wished they went after CSA as hard as they did the "false doctrine" espoused by Olyers and Starkweather. And to act like false churches have discord and they don't have it!!!! Seems like the Pacific NW US and SW Canada had a lot of problems beginning in the late 1980s and peaking with the Alberta-Willis Propp-Jim Knipe excommunications in 1999. And then Ms.Magowan was ousted from the work in SK while the Masseys were indirectly axed in Sweden in 2001.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 20:55:19 GMT -5
2x2s generally don't believe in the trinity. Where I come from, the doctrine of the trinity is looked upon very unfavorably. I've heard only one worker say "We believe in the trinity", and his junior worker vehemently denied the trinity to be true. If one does believe in the trinity , they should expect to be looked at unfavorably in this movement. NathanB said above, something to the effect of people not 'understanding the Godhead' and not being properly taught.' I look at it from the other side of the coin. I think they have been properly taught, and the do understand.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 24, 2015 21:57:18 GMT -5
Please please please do not hijack this thread to discuss the trinity. If you do not honor my request, I will request that your posts be removed.
These men were NOT expelled from the work for believing the trinity concept and they do/did not believe Jesus is God.
They believed that it was impossible for Jesus to sin.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 23:17:15 GMT -5
Hot off the press! Just added to TTT: Account of Divisions & Purges in Alaska and Montana - involving Bob Ingram, Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather and Everett Swanson. First paragraphs... This Account concerns three brother Workers born and raised in the State of Montana: 1. John R. Starkweather, born in 1924, son of John and Katie Starkweather, entered the work in Montana in 1954, age 30; 2. E. Truitt Oyler, born in 1946, son of Enos and Bette Oyler, entered in the work in Montana in 1963, age 21; His first companion was John Starkweather; 3. Walter J. Oyler, Truitt’s oldest brother, was born in 1940, entered the work in Montana in 1961, when he was about 20 years old. All three men had entered the work in their native state and were preaching in Montana under the Overseer Tom Lyness. Tom was an Irishman who professed in Ireland in 1902, entered the work in 1903, and came to Canada in 1905. In 1915, Tom was the first Worker who began preaching in Montana where he stayed until his death in 1970, age 87 years. Tom and his sister Annie are buried in Manhattan, Montana and share the same tombstone. (View Tombstone) Upon Tom's death in 1970, the field of Montana and Northern Wyoming were combined with Oregon/ Southern Idaho under the responsibility of Howard Mooney. In 1967, when Truitt had been in the work about three years, he and his companion John were discussing the scripture. They were unaware that sister Worker (possibly Blanche Curtis) was also in the house overhearing them until she came into the room where they were talking. She was very upset and did not agree with their interpretation. From childhood on, these three men had sat in gospel missions held by early Workers, such as Tom Lyness, his sister Annie, Nellie Williams, Vernon Myers and others. According to sources who were in a position to know, but spoke to the author under the condition of anonymity, Truitt asserted they heard the doctrine the sister workers questioned preached by Tom Lyness and other early workers et. al. and that what the three men taught was no different; i.e. that Jesus was divine and could not sin. On the other hand, the sister Worker believed Jesus was human just like she was. Many but not all Friends and Workers believe that Jesus could have sinned and lost his salvation, but was only able to live a sinless life by the power of the Holy Spirit and suffering, self denial and by cutting off sinful thoughts and lust in his mind. This sister Worker became very determined that Truitt, Walter and John would be put out of the work and she eventually succeeded. They were accused of believing and teaching “false doctrine” also called “divisive doctrine.” Their alleged beliefs came to be commonly known as “Truitt’s Doctrine,” but few knew exactly what that doctrine really entailed. Truitt’s Doctrine was reported to have been some or all of the following: that Jesus was divine, that Jesus could not be tempted to sin, that Jesus was God, the doctrine of “Original Sin” related to the doctrine of “The Fall,” and perhaps more. Their beliefs will be discussed more fully below. To read the rest, click here: Chapter 29 what's hot of the press? something from 100,50,40,30,20 years ago?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 23:20:50 GMT -5
Ah, the Tale Bearer is at it, again. And that's a Fact. NOT tale bearer, Bert! It's 2x2 historical fact I was there myself and witnessed some of these things unfolded. Thanks, Cherie for posting Montana & Alaska situation, it gives us a bird's eye view.that's right it is historical, we live today and are responsible for today not something historical from a million years ago
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 23:26:23 GMT -5
It sounds like the Trinitarians are the ones being burned at the stake in the 2x2s. A bit like religious purging. One for the Je suis Charlie thread not to mention eaves dropping. The early workers (William Irvine, John Long, etc) and many of senior workers in the past, and today taught the Trinity/Triune God. We have Dennis J. who have testified the Godhead was taught during the 1960-70s... George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Mable Gibson,
Senior workers taught the Triune God in 1980-2015s. Leo Stancliff, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.
I believe Truitt got into trouble for teaching "the impeccable sin" getting Christ's nature and Jesus nature mixed up. Unfortunately, Many of the overseers, senior workers in 1980s did NOT believe Jesus is God so that didn't help the situation. The 2x2 Overseers believe the Trinity is Roman Catholic Church doctrine and is the Devil's doctrine so it had to be STAMPED out. In their minds God refers ONLY to the Father, the confusion came from both camps Truitt's and the 2x2 overseers during this time. I was in the work in Bozeman, Montana field 1990-91 with Gary Paul when Truitt came down from Alaska and stayed at his parents home.
Impeccability sin (Roman Catholic Church doctrine)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeccability
could you please quote what Leo Stancliff, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson taught of the Triune God ? i have never heard Stan Chamberlain or Alan Richardson speak of the triune God
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 23:31:44 GMT -5
that's right it is historical, we live today and are responsible for today not something historical from a million years ago The past history connects to today's history of the friends and workers why they believe the way they do NOW! Learn from the PAST history so we Don't repeat the same mistake again. if we are learning from God history has no place if we are learning from man, history is all he has
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 23:32:41 GMT -5
could you please quote what Leo Stancliff, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson taught of the Triune God ? i have never heard Stan Chamberlain or Alan Richardson speak of the triune God John Wegter has a good and a clear understanding of the Triune God/Godhead. Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Immanuel means "God with us.") The scriptures contain many names and titles given to the Lord Jesus, such as the ones included in these verses. The more we understand the many aspects of His nature and the unique roles that He plays in the experience of mankind, the better we can glorify Him, as He so richly deserves. The better we know Him, the more we love and appreciate Him for who He is in His infinite, eternal, divine nature as well as for the greatness of the work He has accomplished. As a child growing up with constant exposure to God's word and the message of the Lord Jesus, I most often thought of Him as the Son of God, since that is a description that the scripture often uses to refer to Him. As years passed, however, I began to see that at times the scriptures refer to Jesus simply as "God" -- as in the above verses from Isaiah -- instead of "Son of God". This seemed a paradox, and is a point of great confusion for people who persist in thinking according to the familiar human patterns. We find it hard to understand how someone could ever be both God and God's Son at the same time. However, the infinity of God's nature is definitely not limited as our human mind is limited. As we open ourselves to His guidance and teaching, His Spirit enables us to see beyond what the human spirit can perceive. "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) It helps us to grasp more about God when we understand that "God" is not necessarily used as a proper name denoting one particular individual as we think of individuals, but is rather one particular spirit or nature. For this reason that "God" can refer not only to the eternal Father, but also to His Son, our Lord Jesus. Again, we need to lay aside human thinking patterns as we contemplate the unique nature of the Lord Jesus. Though He was conceived miraculously in the womb of His virgin mother by the Holy Spirit, He was not half-human, half-divine, as we would normally think of human beings that possess a part of their father's nature and a part of their mother's. Jesus was all divine, possessing all of the nature of His Father, as well as being all human, possessing all of our nature. Several scriptures help us understand this truth: "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9) "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." (Philippians 2:6-7) "He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." (Hebrews 2:17) now stan and alan please
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 0:46:57 GMT -5
Virgo, Jesus is 2,000 years old and some of the words in the Bible are thousands of years older than that so why do you follow Jesus and what is written in the Old Book. After all your fellowship and any words the workers say are thousands of years younger than that. Yours is an attempt to shut people up. Why - what are you ashamed or afraid of? Why listen to the workers if you do not like what they preach? Surely you read old convention notes or do you just take out what you want and discard what you don't like. duh i was speaking of the fellowship not about what God teaches us, oh i miss the eyes roll smiley
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Post by Mary on Apr 25, 2015 0:50:56 GMT -5
But your church claims to be based on the 2,000 year old fellowship of Jesus and his followers. Going back in history is very important to your fellowship.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 1:02:17 GMT -5
But your church claims to be based on the 2,000 year old fellowship of Jesus and his followers. Going back in history is very important to your fellowship. yes it is based on the fellowship of Jesus and his followers which is not history but is very much alive today, Christ is not dead
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Post by Mary on Apr 25, 2015 2:03:21 GMT -5
Your fellowship was dead for nearly 2,000 years. So why bother trying to copy something from 2,000 years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 3:04:08 GMT -5
Your fellowship was dead for nearly 2,000 years. So why bother trying to copy something from 2,000 years ago. fellowship with the Christ has never been dead, how could it?
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 25, 2015 8:59:49 GMT -5
Chapter 29 of my book is hot off the press---it is now fully complete and posted on TTT. Contains details of 10 Divisions in the 2x2 church throughout the years... the last Division/Purge added was the controversy over the "divisive doctrine" and excommunication of Truitt & Walter Oyler, John Starkweather; and the accompanying Purges in AK and by Everett Swanson in Montana. This is the first time all these details have ever been put together chronologically and made public. First time these facts have been revealed as to what really happened to these men, by whom and why. John Starkweather was convinced of his beliefs to the point that he was willing to go from being King of Texas (Overseer) to being a school janitor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 9:16:05 GMT -5
Cherie, in my opinion, again you've recorded well, and contrary to most everyone else posting here, if not all, Truitt and I were companions. In addition, spent time with Walter, Truitt, and John on a tent building project.
You sum up their position very well. My perception at the time was they were denying Yahu'shuah's humanity, with which I disagreed then as I would now.
In my opinion they were, all three, very fine men. Very capable, charming (a quality which I do not have, and never did have) intelligent, sincere.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 9:25:08 GMT -5
Please please please do not hijack this thread to discuss the trinity. If you do not honor my request, I will request that your posts be removed. These men were NOT expelled from the work for believing the trinity concept and they do/did not believe Jesus is God. They believed that it was impossible for Jesus to sin. Cheri It sounded like the trinity WAS the subject of the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 9:36:02 GMT -5
I don't get why some higher ups try to push their doctrine on others. Why not pray for the Olyers or Mr, Starkweather and hope they get a true revelation and be done with it? Why cause so much unrest and divisions in the Kingdom?? Men like Messrs Holt, Tenniswood, Swanson, Mooney, etc. caused far more divisions in the Kingdom by being heavy handed. To think it was possible for Jesus to have sinned would be like saying God's work isn't complete? Since Jesus came from above, then why would God have sent someone on the earth to sin? God hates sin and the Redeemer wouldn't have sinned.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 25, 2015 9:50:13 GMT -5
Please please please do not hijack this thread to discuss the trinity. If you do not honor my request, I will request that your posts be removed. These men were NOT expelled from the work for believing the trinity concept and they do/did not believe Jesus is God. They believed that it was impossible for Jesus to sin. Cheri It sounded like the trinity WAS the subject of the thread. I don't understand how you could say/think that...IF you have read the Account. Have you?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 10:36:21 GMT -5
Cheri It sounded like the trinity WAS the subject of the thread. I don't understand how you could say/think that...IF you have read the Account. Have you? Yes, I read it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 10:39:53 GMT -5
"They were accused of believing and teaching “false doctrine” also called “divisive doctrine.” Their alleged beliefs came to be commonly known as “Truitt’s Doctrine,” but few knew exactly what that doctrine really entailed. Truitt’s Doctrine was reported to have been some or all of the following: that Jesus was divine, that Jesus could not be tempted to sin, that Jesus was God, the doctrine of “Original Sin” related to the doctrine of “The Fall,” and perhaps more. Their beliefs will be discussed more fully below." Sounds like a disagreement over the trinity doctrine to me. Apparantly, others on this board took it to be a thread regarding the nature of Jesus also.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 10:47:44 GMT -5
Cheri, Regarding your post: As you know, this sort of thing is not peculiar to the fellowship. Around 350 A.D. the Church convened and excommunicated the Arians for NOT believing in the trinity. At the time, the Church really had no trinitarian formula. The council met and created a 'creed' to explain their doctrine of God. Those who didn't agree were disfellowshipped. I read the book WHEN JESUS BEDCAME GOD also. Very good historical account, and probably pretty accurate. The question really is this: Do the elders and workers have the right to dictate doctrine?
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