Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 23:36:17 GMT -5
"Exe'ism" here means a philosophy common to some former 2x2 members. This philosophy holds that exes are people who "saw the light" and left their church. Where did this "light" come from? Many would have you believe it was from God himself. They speak about "praying" about these things, or God "showing" them something, reading a select verse in the bible etc..
It sounds as if they have found a higher truth, something which goes back to Jesus.
But could true Exe'ism simply go back to Irvine?
Irvine was a man who made all sorts of claims about himself, a man who wanted, like the worker Diotrephes in 3 John 9-12, "preeminence." Irvine was a man who, like the worker Demas in 2 Timothy 12, "loved this present world." From his latter day cigarette smoking I take it that Irvine didn't believe in "works" either. Most church people in his day saw smoking as a sin, and he would have appeared to even them as a "worldly" person. And he wanted to find fault and bad mouth other people.
Some here will quote Irvine or his fellow travelers in a way they would never quote Jesus. Some read the Secret Sect as if it's their bible. Others want to "research" Irvine. And rarely, very rarely, will they talk about what they have found outside of the humble little house churches they left.
So yes, I do believe that Irvine IS a Founder. But a founder of what?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 22, 2015 3:47:50 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 12:02:30 GMT -5
Exe-ism isn't an organized group with an organized agenda, structure, creed or set of beliefs. There are formerly professing saints who : A. believe truth is the only way but they aren't willing B. Believe the truth isn't for them but have little interest in discussing it on a forum C. Believe Truth is a cult but want to stress that they are "glad they aren't bitter like some folks" D. Believe the Truth is a cult and needs to be outlawed, regulated and exposed in every way possible. E. Weren't involved in the group long enough to know how they feel about it and could really care less about the group. And varying degrees of the above
Bert, which group above are you discussing? I am sure John Long was the first former member as Wm. Irvine kicked him out of the "work" around 1901.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 2:02:20 GMT -5
Yes, Irvinism isn't a group, it's a philosophy. I know just one Irvinist - she attended our meeting some years ago, on and off. I found her a little unsettling, to be honest. We learned later she left her meeting after reading The Secret Sect. We weren't surprised.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2015 2:21:49 GMT -5
Yes, Irvinism isn't a group, it's a philosophy. I know just one Irvinist - she attended our meeting some years ago, on and off. I found her a little unsettling, to be honest. We learned later she left her meeting after reading The Secret Sect.We weren'tsurprised. I'm sure you must have found her unsettling, since she no doubt knew where, when, & by whom that 2x2's were started!
And of course you didn't want to believe it!
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Mar 23, 2015 3:22:32 GMT -5
She had found out the truth about the truth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 4:08:43 GMT -5
Yes, Irvinism isn't a group, it's a philosophy. I know just one Irvinist - she attended our meeting some years ago, on and off. I found her a little unsettling, to be honest. We learned later she left her meeting after reading The Secret Sect.We weren'tsurprised. I'm sure you must have found her unsettling, since she no doubt knew where, when, & by whom that 2x2's were started!
And of course you didn't want to believe it!
If I were a referee in this match, I would caution you for punching under the belt, nasty. You slipped that one in very slyly.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2015 4:40:15 GMT -5
I'm sure you must have found her unsettling, since she no doubt knew where, when, & by whom that 2x2's were started!
And of course you didn't want to believe it!
If I were a referee in this match, I would caution you for punching under the belt, nasty. You slipped that one in very slyly. Then I' m glad you aren't a referee because I don't think you understand what "punching under the belt" means.
I was Just explaining why you found the lady "unsettling."
I have encountered many 2x2's "unsettled" and I am not trying to be facetious about it.
To be deceived by the beginnings or the "TRUTH," aka 2X2'S, has hurt a lot of very kind & decent people & is in no way "funny" or humorous.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Mar 23, 2015 4:59:07 GMT -5
I thought the original workers did not plan to start a church now i see they did. Re Nathan saying Long was axed because he sent converts to existing churches.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 5:04:55 GMT -5
If I were a referee in this match, I would caution you for punching under the belt, nasty. You slipped that one in very slyly. Then I' m glad you aren't a referee because I don't think you understand what "punching under the belt" means.
I was Just explaining why you found the lady "unsettling."
I have encountered many 2x2's "unsettled" and I am not trying to be facetious about it.
To be deceived by the beginnings or the "TRUTH," aka 2X2'S, has hurt a lot of very kind & decent people & is in no way "funny" or humorous.
Ok, that's putting me in my place, by the way I am a boxing fan and I do know what punching under the belt means. No offence taken, though; just a light hearted attempt that failed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 8:31:45 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, I wrote that I found this particular person "unsettling" NOT because she read a book on the Secret Sect (I have several copies myself) but on her general manner twenty years before she went looking for a book.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Mar 23, 2015 10:24:49 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, I wrote that I found this particular person "unsettling" NOT because she read a book on the Secret Sect (I have several copies myself) but on her general manner twenty years before she went looking for a book. Several copies? Are you one of those people that I read about who went and purchased all the copies available locally so others wouldn't read them? Naughty boy.... you were supposed to burn them......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 16:07:34 GMT -5
No I had a copy but couldn't find it when I began on the TMB. So I purchased another copy because I couldn't be bothered searching for it.
nb. I doubt people would buy up and burn copies of that book - good sales lead to print re-runs, don't they?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2015 17:53:01 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, I wrote that I found this particular person "unsettling" NOT because she read a book on the Secret Sect (I have several copies myself) but on her general manner twenty years before she went looking for a book. I understood that it was "NOT because she had read a book The Secret Sect."
You called her an Irvinist. - I was wondering why you called her an Irvinist? Had you heard about Irvine before The Secret Sect was published ? Did Perhaps she know something about the beginnings of the "TRUTH," (AKA, 2X2'S,) twenty years before the the book The Secret Sect was published and by her talking about it perhaps that was what was "unsettling" for you, -rather than her general manner?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2015 18:46:23 GMT -5
from your post: "I didn't like how the 2x2 workers preached about Jesus he was clearly not enough for salvation according to most workers - you needed a lot more than just Jesus) and I found the folk in the humble little house churches nice but very confused when it came to who Jesus was."
I do not see the confusion that you state is in the 2x2's. It is simply not true that the workers preach , "Jesus was clearly not enough for salvation."
(as I've said before I have reams of convention notes which state otherwise.)
Leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" was withheld from us is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. I don't see any necessity to drum up other reasons where one tries to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 23, 2015 19:18:35 GMT -5
from your post: "I didn't like how the 2x2 workers preached about Jesus he was clearly not enough for salvation according to most workers - you needed a lot more than just Jesus) and I found the folk in the humble little house churches nice but very confused when it came to who Jesus was."
I do not see the confusion that you state is in the 2x2's. It is simply not true that the workers preach , "Jesus was clearly not enough for salvation."
(as I've said before I have reams of convention notes which state otherwise.)
Leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" was withheld from us is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. I don't see any necessity to drum up other reasons where one tries to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church.
Yes, but unless they say that the workers didn't teach Christ right, they can't back Irvine Grey's statement that they are a 'dangerous cult'.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2015 22:59:02 GMT -5
I do not see the confusion that you state is in the 2x2's. It is simply not true that the workers preach , "Jesus was clearly not enough for salvation."
(as I've said before I have reams of convention notes which state otherwise.)
Leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" was withheld from us is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. I don't see any necessity to drum up other reasons where one tries to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church.
Yes, but unless they say that the workers didn't teach Christ right, they can't back Irvine Grey's statement that they are a 'dangerous cult'. ehum.... never thought of that. That is a good point.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Mar 23, 2015 23:14:18 GMT -5
I consider it to be a dangerous cult but am unsure if the teaching about Jesus is correct or not. But I may be a minority in that regard.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 24, 2015 1:55:43 GMT -5
I do not see the confusion that you state is in the 2x2's. It is simply not true that the workers preach , "Jesus was clearly not enough for salvation."
(as I've said before I have reams of convention notes which state otherwise.)
Leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" was withheld from us is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. I don't see any necessity to drum up other reasons where one tries to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church.
Plenty of folk have left because the beginnings were hidden. Plenty of folk have left because of doctrinal reasons in at least 4 key areas: 1. Who is Jesus - the 2x2's along with other Christian sects almost universally reject His deity, other christian churches do not. 2. How am I saved - in the 2x2's it is by repenting, having faith in Christ, professing through the workers, being baptised by the workers, living a good life, obeying what the workers say and enduring unto the end. It is faith plus works. Justification and salvation do not occur until after a person dies and a person should have no assurance of salvation in this life. In the vast majority of other Christian churches it is by the grace of God we are saved, repenting and turning to Christ and trusting in His death in our place and His resurrection. At that point we are justified and saved as the Scripture clearly indicates. But the workers don't like that because in their view it's not enough. 3. The role of the ministry - in the 2x2's the ministers decide whether a person can enter the Kingdom. They also decide when a person is worthy to be baptised. If a person doesn't profess through a worker they do not enter in. The worker places themselves as a mediator between God and man. The role of a minister in other Christian churches is to preach the gospel and the Word and pastor the flock - it is not to act as an intermediary or arbiter ofGod's grace. 4. Exclusivity - I think this point is well known. I could go on but I will stop. I can assure that there are thousands of people around the world who have left the 2x2 group because of the wrong doctrine that is taught by workers. The 2x2's do NOT reject the deity of Jesus.
I am beginning to think that you weren't listening very well at conventions.
All the conventions where I went it was also preached that it was "by the grace of God we are saved, repenting and turning to Christ and trusting in His death in our place and His resurrection."
I have never heard any worker who placed "themselves as a mediator between God and man." In fact it was preached against when denouncing Catholic doctrine which states the priests are "mediators between God and man."
As I said before, leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" were not told us, -is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. However, some of the people who left & went to ANOTHER Christian church don't seem satisfied with that.
They keep trying to find "doctrinal reasons" to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church. Yet, you find the same people often disagreeing with one another on church doctrine right here on this board-just as you did with Maryhig !
That is the reason that there are so many different denominations of the Protestant Christan religion. It has always been so.
Luckily, at least these days when you differ here on this board, -you just keep telling one another to do what is right for you!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 24, 2015 2:09:45 GMT -5
Plenty of folk have left because the beginnings were hidden. Plenty of folk have left because of doctrinal reasons in at least 4 key areas: 1. Who is Jesus - the 2x2's along with other Christian sects almost universally reject His deity, other christian churches do not. 2. How am I saved - in the 2x2's it is by repenting, having faith in Christ, professing through the workers, being baptised by the workers, living a good life, obeying what the workers say and enduring unto the end. It is faith plus works. Justification and salvation do not occur until after a person dies and a person should have no assurance of salvation in this life. In the vast majority of other Christian churches it is by the grace of God we are saved, repenting and turning to Christ and trusting in His death in our place and His resurrection. At that point we are justified and saved as the Scripture clearly indicates. But the workers don't like that because in their view it's not enough. 3. The role of the ministry - in the 2x2's the ministers decide whether a person can enter the Kingdom. They also decide when a person is worthy to be baptised. If a person doesn't profess through a worker they do not enter in. The worker places themselves as a mediator between God and man. The role of a minister in other Christian churches is to preach the gospel and the Word and pastor the flock - it is not to act as an intermediary or arbiter ofGod's grace. 4. Exclusivity - I think this point is well known. I could go on but I will stop. I can assure that there are thousands of people around the world who have left the 2x2 group because of the wrong doctrine that is taught by workers. The 2x2's do NOT reject the deity of Jesus.
I am beginning to think that you weren't listening very well at conventions.
All the conventions where I went it was also preached that it was "by the grace of God we are saved, repenting and turning to Christ and trusting in His death in our place and His resurrection."
I have never heard any worker who placed "themselves as a mediator between God and man." In fact it was preached against when denouncing Catholic doctrine which states the priests are "mediators between God and man."
As I said before, leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" were not told us, -is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. However, some of the people who left & went to ANOTHER Christian church don't seem satisfied with that.
They keep trying to find "doctrinal reasons" to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church. Yet, you find the same people often disagreeing with one another on church doctrine right here on this board-just as you did with Maryhig !
That is the reason that there are so many different denominations of the Protestant Christan religion. It has always been so.
Luckily, at least these days when you differ here on this board, -you just keep telling one another to do what is right for you!
You're right DMG I think I've said that enough, but sometimes you feel you have to keep explaining yourself because you say something and it gets bypassed. Like I keep saying I don't think it's anything I do, it's God in the heart that gets us right. But then some will say is not our works it's nothing to do with us! But anyway, DMG we all have our beliefs you have yours, I have mine only joking
|
|
|
Post by blacksheep on Mar 24, 2015 6:25:28 GMT -5
Ross, I'm not familiar with "Summer Letter". Where can I find it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 16:39:16 GMT -5
That particular woman I call an "Irvinist" because she used Irvine to justify herself. Others who leave the meeting I haven't called Irvinists - they just liked football, movies, got tired of meetings etc..
Remember once after a meeting she told everyone that people who use God's name in vain (ie "Jesus Christ its hot"! or "Oh for God's sake, what now"?) "make my blood boil." Someone then said something to make us all laugh,and she blurted out, "Oh for God's sake!"
There was this d.e.a.t.h.l.y..... s.i.l.e.n.c.e.....
She was often like that. You couldn't talk to her long without her running someone down. And missing meetings. So it was no surprise when she went hunting for books about her church. Now she could run us all down. We keep in touch with her. But she seems to be a rather miserable person. Any reference to Jesus and she retreats to the ol' Irvine Excuse.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 25, 2015 0:54:35 GMT -5
The 2x2's do NOT reject the deity of Jesus.
I am beginning to think that you weren't listening very well at conventions.
All the conventions where I went it was also preached that it was "by the grace of God we are saved, repenting and turning to Christ and trusting in His death in our place and His resurrection."
I have never heard any worker who placed "themselves as a mediator between God and man." In fact it was preached against when denouncing Catholic doctrine which states the priests are "mediators between God and man."
As I said before, leaving the TRUTH because the beginnings of the "TRUTH" were not told us, -is quite a good enough reason for someone to leave. However, some of the people who left & went to ANOTHER Christian church don't seem satisfied with that.
They keep trying to find "doctrinal reasons" to justify their reason for leaving and going to another Christian church. Yet, you find the same people often disagreeing with one another on church doctrine right here on this board-just as you did with Maryhig !
That is the reason that there are so many different denominations of the Protestant Christan religion. It has always been so. Luckily, at least these days when you differ here on this board, -you just keep telling one another to do what is right for you!
We'll just have to have different views. All workers I think would say Christ is divine but they reject His deity.I have heard a number of sermons over the years when it is expressly said that God gives His message to the workers who give it to the people. Of course, they don't say they are a mediator but there actions and preaching indicate that this is the role they play (eg exclusivity, can't profess other than a worker etc) We don't have to find doctrinal reasons - the Secret Sect, Summer Letter, TTT etc etc etc is littered with examples of where 2x2 doctrine is quite different to Christian doctrine and teaching. The facts speak for themselves - many have left for doctrinal reasons. I can understand from an atheistic standpoint that it might seem like a lot of religious hoo haa but to Christians it is important. Most Protestant denominations major on the majors. You can forget the "atheistic " slam.
Because I don't believe in a god or gods now, doesn't change what I know about THE "TRUTH," OR THE "WAY" or what is called here, the 2x2's or the more lately, the FW's.
In fact, maybe I can see better than you because I didn't go to a different Christian denomination and therefore don't find any need to justify myself by denouncing the "TRUTH."
That statement, "All workers I think would say Christ is divine but they reject His deity" is an inane example. It is one & the same and it reminds me of nothing less than, "You blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."
If all of these sources, the Secret Sect, Summer Letter, TTT are "littered" with examples of where 2x2 doctrine is so different to Christian doctrine, then perhaps you can give some examples less inane than that example.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 25, 2015 1:14:19 GMT -5
That particular woman I call an "Irvinist" because she used Irvine to justify herself. Others who leave the meeting I haven't called Irvinists - they jus t liked football, movies, got tired of meetings etc.. Remember once after a meeting she told everyone that people who use God's name in vain (ie "Jesus Christ its hot"! or"Oh for God's sake,what now"?)"make my blood boil." Someone then said something to make us all laugh,and she blurted out, "Oh for God's sake!" There was this d.e.a.t.h.l.y..... s.i.l.e.n.c.e..... She was often like that. You couldn't talk to her long without her running someone down. And missing meetings. So it was no surprise when she went hunting for books about her church. Now she could run us all down. We keep in touch with her. But she seems to be a rather miserable person. Any reference to Jesus and she retreats to the ol' Irvine Excuse. Oh, I see, it was you who called her ""Irvinist!""
You haven't quoted her as saying anything about Irvin!
Did she actually ever say anything where she "used Irvine to justify herself?"
PS. Yes, of course that is the reason we all left the meetings is because we all just wanted to go to football games, the movies, wear make up, cut our hair, wear pants etc. etc. Oh, and I forgot some, get a radio or TV.
At least that is what we were told is the reason we left. Whatever could there have been any other reason!
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Mar 25, 2015 1:31:41 GMT -5
Exclusivsm is a Heresy.. Workers? The coverups of theological truths? 1 Corinthiane 9,V5/6,,,,Ephesians $,V11/12....ETC. Holy Spirit NOT the 3rd part of one GOD? Now lies!!!! No names#$%^&*? Celibate demands$%^&*/?,Power to ostracise and judge even on dress,,COVERUPS for decades of mind control,CRIMINAL CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE!!!! And at court cases o/seer covering up for 12 known victims of Barry,cause they were #$%^&* scared of the reprocusions of peers and WORKERS.Is this the lot that claim that Workers prejudge their followers as worthy or unworthy of their Heaven,as they think worldwide that all other believers are not worthy,of Gods Grace & Redemption? Victim of worker abuse 1940s & 1950s is me--I can assure you to mention the problem caused so much further pain,to know you were not invited to a 21st birthday party near home,as you were becomming one of those to hard to handle truth challengers with truth.Remember the 21 Coptic Christians beheaded in Lybia was because they believed in Salvation was through Jesus. See why exclusivism is a lie and HERESY.You as 2x2s must believe these 21 are now in HELL?
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Mar 25, 2015 1:32:49 GMT -5
Exclusivsm is a Heresy.. Workers? The coverups of theological truths? 1 Corinthiane 9,V5/6,,,,Ephesians $,V11/12....ETC. Holy Spirit NOT the 3rd part of one GOD? Now lies!!!! No names#$%^&*? Celibate demands$%^&*/?,Power to ostracise and judge even on dress,,COVERUPS for decades of mind control,CRIMINAL CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE!!!! And at court cases o/seer covering up for 12 known victims of Barry,cause they were #$%^&* scared of the reprocusions of peers and WORKERS.Is this the lot that claim that Workers prejudge their followers as worthy or unworthy of their Heaven,as they think worldwide that all other believers are not worthy,of Gods Grace & Redemption? Victim of worker abuse 1940s & 1950s is me--I can assure you to mention the problem caused so much further pain,to know you were not invited to a 21st birthday party near home,as you were becomming one of those to hard to handle truth challengers with truth.Remember the 21 Coptic Christians beheaded in Lybia was because they believed in Salvation was through Jesus. See why exclusivism is a lie and HERESY.You as 2x2s must believe these 21 are now in HELL?
|
|