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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 18:08:45 GMT -5
For those who know him I hear that our dear brother worker Percy Watkins has suddenly and unexpectedly passed away. A most gently inspiring man, brother & minister. I've not heard any details. I was always in awe of his gentle manner, it seemed to me he always made suggestions or sowed a seed of thought rather than making forceful statements. He was a great support to and deputy if that is the right term to the overseer here in England and Wales. I'm uncertain of his age but he would be around 60. Greatly and sadly missed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 18:02:16 GMT -5
The above comments came from a facebook post and don't reflect my personal feelings.I never knew Mr. Watkins.
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Feb 27, 2015 21:33:08 GMT -5
Sorry to hear of Percy passing away. Had he been ill or did he die suddenly. He will be missed as male workers are not in abundance in the UK
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Post by blackandwhite on Mar 3, 2015 12:17:35 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this:
"Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom."
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Post by mdm on Mar 4, 2015 13:20:51 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this: "Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." The implication of this statement is that if that if one is pressing charges against a worker, he/she is doing damage to the kingdom. Also, that it is commendable to commit suicide in order to "protect" the kingdom. Also, that a worker is always innocent regardless of whether the allegation against him can be proven in court or not. And, that the person pressing charges against this worker is ultimately responsible for his death. Also, that anybody else who may press charges against a worker will be viewed as doing damage to the kingdom and to the worker. |
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Post by emy on Mar 4, 2015 13:42:28 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this: "Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." The implication of this statement is that if that if one is pressing charges against a worker, he/she is doing damage to the kingdom. Also, that it is commendable to commit suicide in order to "protect" the kingdom. Also, that a worker is always innocent regardless of whether the allegation against him can be proven in court or not. And, that the person pressing charges against this worker is ultimately responsible for his death. Also, that anybody else who may press charges against a worker will be viewed as doing damage to the kingdom and to the worker. That could be one way to interpret it. I found this statement to be significant: it is almost impossible to prove innocence. Apparently he was claiming innocence. I don't see either how suicide could do anything but damage to the fellowship - adding another sort to the initial allegations. |
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Post by mdm on Mar 5, 2015 10:29:51 GMT -5
The implication of this statement is that if that if one is pressing charges against a worker, he/she is doing damage to the kingdom. Also, that it is commendable to commit suicide in order to "protect" the kingdom. Also, that a worker is always innocent regardless of whether the allegation against him can be proven in court or not. And, that the person pressing charges against this worker is ultimately responsible for his death. Also, that anybody else who may press charges against a worker will be viewed as doing damage to the kingdom and to the worker. That could be one way to interpret it. I found this statement to be significant: it is almost impossible to prove innocence. Apparently he was claiming innocence. I don't see either how suicide could do anything but damage to the fellowship - adding another sort to the initial allegations. I am not saying he is guilty - I know nothing about his case. But, don't most people claim innocence, at least initially? I don't see anything unusual or especially significant about him claiming innocence. I just find Ben Crompton's email disturbing and a clear message that anyone pressing charges against a worker is an "enemy of the kingdom." This is nothing new of course, it's a world-wide pattern. |
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Post by bendle on Mar 5, 2015 19:54:14 GMT -5
I knew Percy on a personal level and also some of his family. I am an ex member and found him to be the same with me regardless of my status and I personally have and will continue to regard him as a honourable, decent, honest bloke who I have known for a good many years and who should be the last person to have allegations made about him of any sort.
The fact that he took his own life is distressing enough but to then have it put about that this was in part due to unseemly allegations (the implication being that he took the easy way out) is simply awful. I agree that legal allegations of certain sorts have a right to be heard and guilt or innocence established but the atmosphere in the uk in general right now means that there is a 'no smoke without fire' attitude which is all pervasive and will continue to wreak havoc in innocent lives.
The message which has apparently been read out and the phrasing of it, are obviously going to generate much discussion, and due to the anonymity of the internet, much stirring and possibly some trolling also. I would ask it of all of you to be respectful of the family and not add to the distress already caused to them by needless speculating over the circumstances which led to his death. He has already been turned into a pawn in the dealings of others and this is distasteful in the extreme. If you have something valid to add then do so but please, remember the family.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 8:22:05 GMT -5
I hope you are also concerned about the victims of workers and their families. Is "truth" only a one way street?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 12:27:33 GMT -5
I believe in honesty and openness in all venues of life. I don't like spin from the top down to the bottom. I have seen this kind of thing mishandled in the past. I have seen spin on sickness, meeting changes, overseer and worker changes, convention closures, convention projects, workers leaving "the work" etc. Darkness breeds dishonesty. I feel for the Watkins family and the English workers and friends-I know they are reeling in this sad affair. If those at the top create a system where abuse occurs, then they MUST be held accountable.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 12:31:40 GMT -5
I think privacy and honesty can work together. Add group and individual accountability and you have a wonderful fellowship unit.
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logain
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Post by logain on Mar 7, 2015 0:42:01 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this: "Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." If it is indeed true, (and I have no reason to doubt it), that a brother worker in the UK committed suicide; it is a terrible tragedy regardless of whether you are in or out of truth. In the quoted email I find the lack of clarity (if not outright obfuscation) of the circumstances surrounding or leading to the alleged suicide to be callous and disturbing. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 7, 2015 2:07:44 GMT -5
I think privacy and honesty can work together. Add group and individual accountability and you have a wonderful fellowship unit. Privacy and truth "can" work together, until privacy becomes more important than truth. When it comes to administering justice, privacy becomes secrecy -- the enemy of truth. |
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Post by bendle on Mar 7, 2015 5:29:49 GMT -5
I hope you are also concerned about the victims of workers and their families. Is "truth" only a one way street? Marie, if you were directing this comment at me then I assure you that I am absolutely concerned for victims of anything. However, before this blows up into a internet storm let us remember that allegations are allegations and nothing specific has been brought to light at this point. We in the UK have a legal principle of presumption of innocence until guilt is proven. In the court of the internet however, a different rule applies. Internet speculation is poisonous to all concerned and as I said, the anonymity of the internet allows people to spin and argue all sorts until it becomes accepted as 'fact' when actually it can be nothing of the sort. I have a genuine problem with people via the various internet forums linking Percy to allegation of any sort when they clearly do not know the facts of the matter. As I stated, I am an ex member, though all my family and a few of my friends are members and workers. I don't have a problem with this, I feel no aggression toward the 'church', I just see a family trying to come to terms with the loss of a son, brother, uncle and great uncle and who can do without people jumping on the bandwagon of his death and speculating as to the circumstances of it. The wording of this statement which was read out is deeply unfortunate, it seems to be case of hanging Percy out to dry whilst trying to distance the hierarchy from the matter. Yet having the last word at his funeral proves that it is simply an exercise in having ones cake and eating it too, or playing both sides against the middle. If there is a specific concrete allegation then bring it to light, deal with it, try to put it right, is the correct action in any matter. That is what should happen. That it has not happened by all accounts in other countries does not mean that it cannot happen here in this circumstance. Please give it time. I would gladly fight for all righteous causes if I could, I try to help people whenever I can but I know that as an ex member I am unable to influence the 'church' that I was brought up in. I too have heard the spin, the workers at conventions telling their audience not to criticise the workers, workers being forced out, even hearing workers take it upon themselves to bollock (for want of a better word) the friends' children as if they have any parenting experience, meetings being removed etc. I have had when I lived at home, workers in the house or on the property for weeks on end (I think my family are one of the well regarded uk families) and even my rattling in at 3 am on a sunday morning after being out clubbing couldn't provoke a criticism (I assure you I was very angry about things and itching for a good argument) and eventually I began to see the workers as simply human beings. I realised that we are all the same, they had no authority over me, we all had the same human nature good and bad, and I began to treat them as human beings too, not the divine creatures that my upbringing and the spin had made them out to be. I realised that for some of them it was a shock to be treated as human, to be offered a mug of tea (or a cider), to be asked to do something, I have given one or two lifts and deliberately left the radio on in the car/truck/tractor etc, I've had conversations about stuff completely unrelated to religion and i'm sure that as the 'unprofessing/not attending' one in the house I was supposed to be angry and the fact that I eventually didn't give a toss must have been baffling to some. This was all a good many years ago, the 'church' appears to have changed greatly since then in its stance on a good many things (I recall being at a convention now closed at which ken pagington denounced the internet - how ironic!) but clearly there is still a view held by many that workers are infallible and normal human nature and failings do not apply to them. This is clearly wrong and should be addressed before things get out of hand. |
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Post by toparrow on Mar 7, 2015 7:25:49 GMT -5
Ben Crompton another blunder please stand down.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 13:31:46 GMT -5
I would gladly fight for all righteous causes if I could, I try to help people whenever I can but I know that as an ex member I am unable to influence the 'church' that I was brought up in.
++++This seems a bit like a "cop out" to me. Jean influenced the removal of the overseer of TX. Ex-members have a LOT more influence than members because many of them don't fear retribution for going public. If an ex-member covers up abuse, he or she is just as guilty as a current member. It is the current members who have NO influence in the group.
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Post by bendle on Mar 7, 2015 15:51:54 GMT -5
I would gladly fight for all righteous causes if I could, I try to help people whenever I can but I know that as an ex member I am unable to influence the 'church' that I was brought up in. ++++This seems a bit like a "cop out" to me. Jean influenced the removal of the overseer of TX. Ex-members have a LOT more influence than members because many of them don't fear retribution for going public. If an ex-member covers up abuse, he or she is just as guilty as a current member. It is the current members who have NO influence in the group. Well Mr Walker, it ain't a cop out. You see, I know absolutely jack all about any abuses of any kind within the England/Wales 'church', not now, not ever. Never heard as much as a whisper from any of the many kids I knew or knocked about with at conventions etc or ever since. I appreciate that that fact may be boring but it is also true. I think I heard of a worker who got kicked out for flashing but that is all. As for influencing, well why would they listen to me? i have nothing to influence about! I have no huge desire to get involved in matters of the 'church' as it is the past for me and right now I am finding myself getting drawn back into a group I had left behind, I have no wish to define myself as an ex member of anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 15:56:29 GMT -5
Ben Crompton another blunder please stand down. Interesting. Who is the viable alternative from the current staff that you have in mind to take over from Ben? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 16:13:58 GMT -5
The implication of this statement is that if that if one is pressing charges against a worker, he/she is doing damage to the kingdom. Also, that it is commendable to commit suicide in order to "protect" the kingdom. Also, that a worker is always innocent regardless of whether the allegation against him can be proven in court or not. And, that the person pressing charges against this worker is ultimately responsible for his death. Also, that anybody else who may press charges against a worker will be viewed as doing damage to the kingdom and to the worker. That could be one way to interpret it. I found this statement to be significant: it is almost impossible to prove innocence. Apparently he was claiming innocence. I don't see either how suicide could do anything but damage to the fellowship - adding another sort to the initial allegations. Perhaps in desperation and frustration it was a way out for him, if indeed he was innocent and could not prove it and clear his name that would have played on his mind and influenced him to end it all. Of course, if he was innocent with that hanging over him would have created the pressure on him to find a way out by ending it all for him, even if not for the fellowship or the kingdom, damage-wise, and considering that suicide is regarded as unforgivable by many. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 16:29:29 GMT -5
Ben Crompton another blunder please stand down. A bit judgmental, isn't it? |
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Post by jadetree on Mar 7, 2015 19:41:40 GMT -5
If it is indeed true, (and I have no reason to doubt it), that a brother worker in the UK committed suicide; it is a terrible tragedy regardless of whether you are in or out of truth. In the quoted email I find the lack of clarity (if not outright obfuscation) of the circumstances surrounding or leading to the alleged suicide to be callous and disturbing. The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this: "Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." If it is indeed true, (and I have no reason to doubt it), that a brother worker in the UK committed suicide; it is a terrible tragedy regardless of whether you are in or out of truth. In the quoted email I find the lack of clarity (if not outright obfuscation) of the circumstances surrounding or leading to the alleged suicide to be callous and disturbing. I have no knowledge of the situaition or the man whos past away but I wish to point out that (in my understanding from reading the above by black and white) the words in quoteation marks aren't a direct quote from the email sent by Mr Compton;rather its a summary of the sailient points.This would explain the lack of detail and clarity youmentioned.Perhaps Black and white could clarify this? In response to the member who mentioned that suicide is regarded as un-forgiveable by many - is this many within the fellow-ship or many in society in England? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 7, 2015 20:10:08 GMT -5
I have no knowledge of the situaition or the man whos past away but I wish to point out that (in my understanding from reading the above by black and white) the words in quoteation marks aren't a direct quote from the email sent by Mr Compton;rather its a summary of the sailient points.This would explain the lack of detail and clarity youmentioned.Perhaps Black and white could clarify this? What about that quote makes you think it was NOT a direct quote from Mr. Crompton? Or is there something about black/white that would make it suspect? Do you have the direct quote yourself? Otherwise, I have to say it reads like a perfect piece of overseer spin -- especially because of the lack of details. You NEVER NEVER get details for clarity in such a message, and discussion is normally closed once the message has been delivered. |
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Post by emy on Mar 7, 2015 21:58:43 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this:"Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." So any part of it could be altered a bit by the one who passed it on, maybe even thought to make it more clear. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 7, 2015 22:50:09 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this:"Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." So any part of it could be altered a bit by the one who passed it on, maybe even thought to make it more clear. True |
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cooee
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Post by cooee on Mar 8, 2015 0:13:06 GMT -5
I make no comment on the veracity of the allegation made in this case. I make no judgement whatever about the alleged perpetrator, or victim. I do however strongly urge all friends and spiritually minded workers in the United Kingdom, please, for your own sake; rise up in revolt against Ben Crompton. Please stop blindly following an obviously blind leader. HE is destined to end up in a place YOU most certainly will not desire to end up in yourself.
The message Crompton is said to have delivered to the congregation attending a mission somewhere in the UK on 1st March 2015 is a totally disgusting piece of work. It is a clear indication of that which is so evil and wrong in the overseer’s kingdom. The overseers like to claim that they are the leaders of God’s kingdom on earth; in fact the only true servants of the living God. Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth.
By appropriating for themselves “place” and “power” the overseers have gradually morphed a perfectly reasonable spiritual revivalist movement, started in the late 1800’s early 1900’s by William Irvine and others, turning it into the evil and pernicious organisation it is today.
The overseer’s kingdom is based on a “Jesus plus” mentality. Many of the rituals and regulations practiced in the overseer’s kingdom are not based on, or supported, by the edicts of the Holy Scriptures. Many workers in the overseer’s kingdom preach blatantly false and misleading doctrines to the followers. In the theology of the overseer’s kingdom, it is taught that Jesus is “the perfect example” that must be emulated for salvation, rather than the truth that he was “the perfect sacrifice” which purchased our salvation.
The unscriptural practice in the overseer’s kingdom of pretending that the reputation of the ministry is sacrosanct and the brushing under the carpet of any and all reports of sexual immorality is probably directly in play in this case.
In the way that these cases are typically played out in the overseer’s kingdom around the world, male or female workers against whom allegations of sexual criminality or impropriety are made do not have the opportunity to make an open confession, to fully repent, and consequently be forgiven by God and restored. They are denied this opportunity by the obstinate mindset of the overseers. They insist “there is no sin in the ministry”!!! They will not contemplate any such possibility.
Some outcomes arising from the contemptuous attitude of the overseers are that victims are disbelieved, ignored and marginalised. Stories are circulated about victims being “mentally unstable”, “a troublemaker” or “engaged in a vendetta”. Those who support victims are labelled “enemies of the truth”, which in this context means “an enemy of the overseers kingdom”.
For an accused worker, the outcome is that they are forced to carry a burden of sin, not openly confessed, repented of and forgiven. Their reputation sullied, sacrificed to the maintenance of a ridiculous mirage.
It would be an exquisite irony, if in near vicinity of the region where this fellowship was birthed; God himself would expose the caricature it has now become of a “true and living way”.
cooee.
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Post by toparrow on Mar 8, 2015 3:24:38 GMT -5
Ben Crompton another blunder please stand down. Interesting. Who is the viable alternative from the current staff that you have in mind to take over from Ben? |
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Post by toparrow on Mar 8, 2015 3:25:33 GMT -5
Alastair Campbell
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 4:59:32 GMT -5
I make no comment on the veracity of the allegation made in this case. I make no judgement whatever about the alleged perpetrator, or victim. I do however strongly urge all friends and spiritually minded workers in the United Kingdom, please, for your own sake; rise up in revolt against Ben Crompton. Please stop blindly following an obviously blind leader. HE is destined to end up in a place YOU most certainly will not desire to end up in yourself. The message Crompton is said to have delivered to the congregation attending a mission somewhere in the UK on 1st March 2015 is a totally disgusting piece of work. It is a clear indication of that which is so evil and wrong in the overseer’s kingdom. The overseers like to claim that they are the leaders of God’s kingdom on earth; in fact the only true servants of the living God. Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. By appropriating for themselves “place” and “power” the overseers have gradually morphed a perfectly reasonable spiritual revivalist movement, started in the late 1800’s early 1900’s by William Irvine and others, turning it into the evil and pernicious organisation it is today. The overseer’s kingdom is based on a “Jesus plus” mentality. Many of the rituals and regulations practiced in the overseer’s kingdom are not based on, or supported, by the edicts of the Holy Scriptures. Many workers in the overseer’s kingdom preach blatantly false and misleading doctrines to the followers. In the theology of the overseer’s kingdom, it is taught that Jesus is “the perfect example” that must be emulated for salvation, rather than the truth that he was “the perfect sacrifice” which purchased our salvation. The unscriptural practice in the overseer’s kingdom of pretending that the reputation of the ministry is sacrosanct and the brushing under the carpet of any and all reports of sexual immorality is probably directly in play in this case. In the way that these cases are typically played out in the overseer’s kingdom around the world, male or female workers against whom allegations of sexual criminality or impropriety are made do not have the opportunity to make an open confession, to fully repent, and consequently be forgiven by God and restored. They are denied this opportunity by the obstinate mindset of the overseers. They insist “there is no sin in the ministry”!!! They will not contemplate any such possibility. Some outcomes arising from the contemptuous attitude of the overseers are that victims are disbelieved, ignored and marginalised. Stories are circulated about victims being “mentally unstable”, “a troublemaker” or “engaged in a vendetta”. Those who support victims are labelled “enemies of the truth”, which in this context means “an enemy of the overseers kingdom”. For an accused worker, the outcome is that they are forced to carry a burden of sin, not openly confessed, repented of and forgiven. Their reputation sullied, sacrificed to the maintenance of a ridiculous mirage. It would be an exquisite irony, if in near vicinity of the region where this fellowship was birthed; God himself would expose the caricature it has now become of a “true and living way”. cooee. You may be right in your summation or may be wrong; however, man with all his self appointed powers and authority can deceive and hide from man and do unfair/illegal things but He cannot hide from God and do them. Power, absolute power, corrupts. Man will be judged in the end. This thought probably does not immediately help those victims who have suffered and are suffering injustices, and are demoralized and have to live with it; but be comforted in the belief/knowledge that judgment and punishment will surely come, God is not sleeping. |
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