|
Post by snow on Feb 10, 2015 15:28:32 GMT -5
The American taxpayer spends $US2.8 million per year to keep enemy prisoners housed, while the enemy burns it's prisoner alive and beheads aid workers and journalists. That probably does make me impatient towards those who sympathise with the enemy and blame our civilisation for the problem. I doubt very much that anyone on TMB sympathizes with the enemy or would ever say that the west is totally to blame for the problem. But to completely say that the west had nothing to do with it is not entirely accurate either. There are always consequences for actions. What we did in the Middle East is sure to have gained the hatred of some of it's citizens. Any time there is devaluation of life it's nothing to be proud of imo. It isn't that long ago that there were groups in the States burning, lynching etc of the blacks. It was equally horrific and so the mindset is what needs to be looked at, not so much who is doing it. We've done it too. It happens when one group views another group as sub human or unworthy by whatever standard or belief system they may hold to. I find it all horrific and I don't place the blame on anyone other than the groups that have done these things to each other but I also recognize the human reaction of revenge. It's not right, but it exists.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 10, 2015 20:20:05 GMT -5
The American taxpayer spends $US2.8 million per year to keep enemy prisoners housed, while the enemy burns it's prisoner alive and beheads aid workers and journalists. That probably does make me impatient towards those who sympathise with the enemy and blame our civilisation for the problem. Sympathising with the enemy, that's a good one. The Human Condition is a movie in which a Japanese official tried to make life better for some of the prisoners held in a work camp, who often had done nothing wrong but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. His actions didn't hold too well with the brutal guards who accused him of "sympathising with the enemy". All he was advocating was that the prisoners be treated humanely. Eventually the group mentality got the better of him and he was court martialed for his efforts and sent to the Russian front. Samaritans have been reviled by some Jews for centuries even to the present day. And yet when someone lay injured at the side of the road, the Samaritan demonstrated "sympathy with the enemy". How about the hated, conquering Romans. No one in Israel sympathised with them much either, except for one person who was crucified by them, and yet forgave them. My question for you, is how far do your ideals extend? To whom do you apply compassion and forgiveness, and who is not eligible? We're human and there is a limit. Pretty hard to have any compassion for someone who beheads an innocent young woman. My own compassion does not extend that far, I will say. What about other Arabs or other Muslims who have nothing to do with these horrible events? Does your compassion extend to them, or is it just fine if we lock them up and throw away the key. Is the only good Arab a dead one, in your opinion? Should we sympathise if they suffer wrong or injury, or is that "sympathising with the enemy", in your opinion?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2015 23:10:47 GMT -5
The American taxpayer spends $US2.8 million per year to keep enemy prisoners housed, while the enemy burns it's prisoner alive and beheads aid workers and journalists. That probably does make me impatient towards those who sympathise with the enemy and blame our civilisation for the problem. Sympathising with the enemy, that's a good one. The Human Condition is a movie in which a Japanese official tried to make life better for some of the prisoners held in a work camp, who often had done nothing wrong but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. His actions didn't hold too well with the brutal guards who accused him of "sympathising with the enemy". All he was advocating was that the prisoners be treated humanely. Eventually the group mentality got the better of him and he was court martialed for his efforts and sent to the Russian front. Samaritans have been reviled by some Jews for centuries even to the present day. And yet when someone lay injured at the side of the road, the Samaritan demonstrated "sympathy with the enemy". How about the hated, conquering Romans. No one in Israel sympathised with them much either, except for one person who was crucified by them, and yet forgave them. My question for you, is how far do your ideals extend? To whom do you apply compassion and forgiveness, and who is not eligible? We're human and there is a limit. Pretty hard to have any compassion for someone who beheads an innocent young woman. My own compassion does not extend that far, I will say. What about other Arabs or other Muslims who have nothing to do with these horrible events? Does your compassion extend to them, or is it just fine if we lock them up and throw away the key. Is the only good Arab a dead one, in your opinion? Should we sympathise if they suffer wrong or injury, or is that "sympathising with the enemy", in your opinion? I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings. At $US2.8 million dollars per person per year of taxpayers money there won't be many innocent people locked up with the key thrown away. Most of the Gitmo prisoners have been released, and if closing the place down was as simple as some people seem to think I'm sure Obama would have done so before now.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 10, 2015 23:22:16 GMT -5
I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings. What about Jews or Christians? Atheists. Physical education teachers?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2015 23:31:38 GMT -5
I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings. What about Jews or Christians? Atheists. Physical education teachers? Yes, everyone. Even those Atheists.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 10, 2015 23:38:02 GMT -5
I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings.At $US2.8 million dollars per person per year of taxpayers money there won't be many innocent people locked up with the key thrown away. Most of the Gitmo prisoners have been released, and if closing the place down was as simple as some people seem to think I'm sure Obama would have done so before now. What is your criteria for "behaving like decent human beings?"
Christians once burned people at the stake and went on crusades & beheaded everyone in sight, even some fellow Christians because they wore a turban & the fool crusaders didn't know the difference.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 0:37:26 GMT -5
I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings.At $US2.8 million dollars per person per year of taxpayers money there won't be many innocent people locked up with the key thrown away. Most of the Gitmo prisoners have been released, and if closing the place down was as simple as some people seem to think I'm sure Obama would have done so before now. What is your criteria for "behaving like decent human beings?"
Christians once burned people at the stake and went on crusades & beheaded everyone in sight, even some fellow Christians because they wore a turban & the fool crusaders didn't know the difference.
Why do you think I would exclude Christians?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 11, 2015 1:59:51 GMT -5
What is your criteria for "behaving like decent human beings?"
Christians once burned people at the stake and went on crusades & beheaded everyone in sight, even some fellow Christians because they wore a turban & the fool crusaders didn't know the difference.
Why do you think I would exclude Christians? Because like some others here I'm afraid, -you seem to only see one side of the story.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 2:35:02 GMT -5
Why do you think I would exclude Christians? Because like some others here I'm afraid, -you seem to only see one side of the story.That's a wild assumption, and wide of the mark. I haven't seen anyone here who would be more inclined to condone Christian atrocities than Muslim atrocities.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 11, 2015 3:15:30 GMT -5
Because like some others here I'm afraid, -you seem to only see one side of the story. That's a wild assumption, and wide of the mark. I haven't seen anyone here who would be more inclined to condone Christian atrocities than Muslim atrocities. I'm sure they don't condone them, but perhaps just not like to them mentioned.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 3:43:22 GMT -5
That's a wild assumption, and wide of the mark. I haven't seen anyone here who would be more inclined to condone Christian atrocities than Muslim atrocities. I'm sure they don't condone them, but perhaps just not like to them mentioned.
Can Christian atrocities of hundreds of years ago justify Islamic atrocities in the 21st century? Why do Islamists target Muslims more than any other religion?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 3:59:04 GMT -5
Mujahid's Wish
I wish I am in America. It seems odd, right? Hijra is not the end of a mujahid's ambition. Walking with an AK is not the end of the road.
I used to think the same as you, until I met brothers in the training camps, brothers who look into the enemies' barrels and see Jannah. Surprisingly, many of them wish to live in America.
They have one gentle project to carry out; detonating even one bomb in any crowded area. They wish to be lone mujahideen like Tamerlan. Many of the brothers who made Hijrah from the West wish they have a return ticket, returning home heading for mom's kitchen.
Not to serve the kuffar with delicious and exotic meals, but to terrorize the American society until they cease to fight and assault Muslims.
Brother residing in the West, grab your chance and walk steadfastly towards your goal.
As for me here in Yemen,whenever I move around with explosives around my waist, I wish I am in America.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 11, 2015 8:52:46 GMT -5
What is your criteria for "behaving like decent human beings?"
Christians once burned people at the stake and went on crusades & beheaded everyone in sight, even some fellow Christians because they wore a turban & the fool crusaders didn't know the difference.
Why do you think I would exclude Christians? Because in your OP the people you were talking about were selective and specific.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 11, 2015 10:01:17 GMT -5
Sympathising with the enemy, that's a good one. The Human Condition is a movie in which a Japanese official tried to make life better for some of the prisoners held in a work camp, who often had done nothing wrong but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. His actions didn't hold too well with the brutal guards who accused him of "sympathising with the enemy". All he was advocating was that the prisoners be treated humanely. Eventually the group mentality got the better of him and he was court martialed for his efforts and sent to the Russian front. Samaritans have been reviled by some Jews for centuries even to the present day. And yet when someone lay injured at the side of the road, the Samaritan demonstrated "sympathy with the enemy". How about the hated, conquering Romans. No one in Israel sympathised with them much either, except for one person who was crucified by them, and yet forgave them. My question for you, is how far do your ideals extend? To whom do you apply compassion and forgiveness, and who is not eligible? We're human and there is a limit. Pretty hard to have any compassion for someone who beheads an innocent young woman. My own compassion does not extend that far, I will say. What about other Arabs or other Muslims who have nothing to do with these horrible events? Does your compassion extend to them, or is it just fine if we lock them up and throw away the key. Is the only good Arab a dead one, in your opinion? Should we sympathise if they suffer wrong or injury, or is that "sympathising with the enemy", in your opinion? I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings. At $US2.8 million dollars per person per year of taxpayers money there won't be many innocent people locked up with the key thrown away. Most of the Gitmo prisoners have been released, and if closing the place down was as simple as some people seem to think I'm sure Obama would have done so before now. Okay, but I would like to understand how you reconcile your views against the New Testament, insofar as the question of "sympathising with the enemy". From your past posts I'm led to believe that the enemy as far as your concerned is Arabs, at least the ones that don't "behave like decent human beings" which it seems, is just about all of them. But please define enemy however you like, are you against "sympathising with the enemy"?
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 11, 2015 10:03:32 GMT -5
I'm sure they don't condone them, but perhaps just not like to them mentioned.
Can Christian atrocities of hundreds of years ago justify Islamic atrocities in the 21st century? Why do Islamists target Muslims more than any other religion? You don't have to go back hundreds of years to find Christian atrocities. You live down under; have you seen the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" regarding the treatment of aboriginal children?
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 11, 2015 10:13:28 GMT -5
Mujahid's Wish I wish I am in America. It seems odd, right? Hijra is not the end of a mujahid's ambition. Walking with an AK is not the end of the road. I used to think the same as you, until I met brothers in the training camps, brothers who look into the enemies' barrels and see Jannah. Surprisingly, many of them wish to live in America. They have one gentle project to carry out; detonating even one bomb in any crowded area. They wish to be lone mujahideen like Tamerlan. Many of the brothers who made Hijrah from the West wish they have a return ticket, returning home heading for mom's kitchen. Not to serve the kuffar with delicious and exotic meals, but to terrorize the American society until they cease to fight and assault Muslims. Brother residing in the West, grab your chance and walk steadfastly towards your goal. As for me here in Yemen,whenever I move around with explosives around my waist, I wish I am in America. This is not news to anyone here. We're all quite up on events in the Middle East and even people who never read the News know about suicide bombers. The question is what we do with that information and how we process it. If you see a "lone mujahideen" in your city or mine, do you think 'suicide bomber'. I don't because we've had Muslims in our community for a long time. I don't interact with many of them, except on occasion, because they mostly live in Toronto, and form about 3% of the population. But the ones I've met are fairly modern, business oriented and upwardly mobile. However, some young Muslim men have been radicalized, most notably the 'Toronto 16' who were caught building fertilizer bombs. What would your advice be given that information. Deport all Muslims? That is just a rhetorical question, but here is a serious one. A number (between 5 and 10) were sent to Guantanamo and held without due process against Canadian principles of law. Was that just, in your opinion?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 11, 2015 12:03:19 GMT -5
Can Christian atrocities of hundreds of years ago justify Islamic atrocities in the 21st century? Why do Islamists target Muslims more than any other religion? You don't have to go back hundreds of years to find Christian atrocities. You live down under; have you seen the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" regarding the treatment of aboriginal children? Or our Canadian Residential schools. Or the Ku Klux Klan that certainly contained Christians in their group and the atrocities that very much mimic ISIS of today. None of these things happened a long time ago and they happened in so called 'civilized' countries. No one should justify any of the actions taken by any extremist group that does not hold value for life. What I do not understand is the belief that it is somehow related to Muslims in general. It is an ideology that has been shared by extremist groups forever. The inability to value human life and the belief that the 'other' is subhuman. When we start viewing someone or some group as sub human we cross a very scary line imo. That is when we find we can commit atrocities. Why, because we cease to see the other as human. We lose sight of that and we then are also capable of inhuman acts. Some of the problem is the beliefs they hold that they do get from their various sacred books. Ku Klux Klan would say they were following Christian principles and ISIS I am sure feel they are following Muslim principles. Both these books can be interpreted in such a way that allows for these types of atrocities. Voltaire has a quote that I agree with 'Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities'. That has proven to be true through the ages and today is just another form of that taking place. But if we start seeing these people as sub human and not just very misguided humans, we can lose our own humanity. I do not condone what they have done, their actions horrify me. But I must not reduce myself to seeing them as inhuman. These are people who have allowed themselves to believe in lies and let their hatred blind them to the point that they have lost site of their victims humanity. We must make sure we do not lower ourselves to that level.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 13:42:25 GMT -5
Why do you think I would exclude Christians? Because in your OP the people you were talking about were selective and specific. Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 13:54:41 GMT -5
I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings. At $US2.8 million dollars per person per year of taxpayers money there won't be many innocent people locked up with the key thrown away. Most of the Gitmo prisoners have been released, and if closing the place down was as simple as some people seem to think I'm sure Obama would have done so before now. Okay, but I would like to understand how you reconcile your views against the New Testament, insofar as the question of "sympathising with the enemy". From your past posts I'm led to believe that the enemy as far as your concerned is Arabs, at least the ones that don't "behave like decent human beings" which it seems, is just about all of them. But please define enemy however you like, are you against "sympathising with the enemy"? The enemy is not Arabs. The enemy is not Muslims. The enemy is people who want to attack us and destroy our freedom. Or perhaps the evil ideology that drives these people. As far as I can tell Jesus advised his disciples to pay their Roman taxes. And his advice to tax collectors for the Roman occupation as well as Roman soldiers was not to go find another job.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 14:20:19 GMT -5
The question is what we do with that information and how we process it. If you see a "lone mujahideen" in your city or mine, do you think 'suicide bomber'. I don't because we've had Muslims in our community for a long time. I don't interact with many of them, except on occasion, because they mostly live in Toronto, and form about 3% of the population. But the ones I've met are fairly modern, business oriented and upwardly mobile. However, some young Muslim men have been radicalized, most notably the 'Toronto 16' who were caught building fertilizer bombs. What would your advice be given that information. Deport all Muslims? That is just a rhetorical question, but here is a serious one. A number (between 5 and 10) were sent to Guantanamo and held without due process against Canadian principles of law. Was that just, in your opinion? Those Muslims who want Sharia law in Western countries should be told very firmly that it's not going to happen. They will abide by the laws of the country they live in, or they are welcome to go live in one of the hell-holes that already have Sharia law. I have no problem with those Muslims who are willing to integrate. I believe those who are charged with keeping us safe will have good reason to send individuals to Guantanamo. Each prisoner costs taxpayers $US2.8 million per year to keep there and there's a lot of pressure to close the place down.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 14:23:53 GMT -5
Can Christian atrocities of hundreds of years ago justify Islamic atrocities in the 21st century? Why do Islamists target Muslims more than any other religion? You don't have to go back hundreds of years to find Christian atrocities. You live down under; have you seen the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" regarding the treatment of aboriginal children? I don't think I have. Did they burn them alive or behead them?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 11, 2015 14:49:16 GMT -5
Because in your OP the people you were talking about were selective and specific. Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. I know. And I understand.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 16:53:20 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. I know. And I understand. You understand that the OP was by What Hat, not Fixit?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 11, 2015 20:43:07 GMT -5
You understand that the OP was by What Hat, not Fixit? That is why I specified "your OP". I apologize. I should have made it clear that I was commenting on the post you made. I assumed it was an original thought. Also, it might have been a little confusing because I was using the word 'original' with my own definition: original - the post that you made to which I was referring.Whew - that was a lot of spinning!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 11, 2015 21:54:01 GMT -5
You understand that the OP was by What Hat, not Fixit? That is why I specified "your OP". I apologize. I should have made it clear that I was commenting on the post you made. I assumed it was an original thought. Also, it might have been a little confusing because I was using the word 'original' with my own definition: original - the post that you made to which I was referring.Whew - that was a lot of spinning! And spinning that's not working. It was you who started talking about specific groups. I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings. What about Jews or Christians? Atheists. Physical education teachers? You might not have noticed but radicalised Islamists are at war with the Enlightenment. They are just as content to kill Atheists as Christians and Jews.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 21:58:02 GMT -5
AND, kill each other - like in Sunni vs Shia.
Back in the 1980's (before all this Iraq and Afghanistan business started, when America supported the Taliban to fight the occupation of their country) a friend and me sat down with a group of Arabs one day. I posed the question, "What would you do if you guys had an atomic bomb?" Their unanimous answer was, "Drop it on America." But... (lots of buts!) in the Cold War America had, what, 20,000 atomic weapons. "Could you imagine what America would do YOUR countries?" "Doesn't matter" they all concurred. Here were Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrian, Iranian and many others. I turned to my friend and said, "Doesn't it make you afraid?" I reminded him of that old saying about Arabs, "today the Middle East has oil and religion. Tomorrow it's got religion (and the bomb.)
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 11, 2015 22:16:28 GMT -5
And spinning that's not working. At least I tried! Really? In the post I was responding to you said: I have nothing against Arabs or Muslims, as long as they behave like decent human beings.Looks like groups to me, limited though they may be.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Feb 11, 2015 23:01:25 GMT -5
Okay, but I would like to understand how you reconcile your views against the New Testament, insofar as the question of "sympathising with the enemy". From your past posts I'm led to believe that the enemy as far as your concerned is Arabs, at least the ones that don't "behave like decent human beings" which it seems, is just about all of them. But please define enemy however you like, are you against "sympathising with the enemy"? The enemy is not Arabs. The enemy is not Muslims. The enemy is people who want to attack us and destroy our freedom. Or perhaps the evil ideology that drives these people. As far as I can tell Jesus advised his disciples to pay their Roman taxes. And his advice to tax collectors for the Roman occupation as well as Roman soldiers was not to go find another job. I don't see the connection to paying taxes at all. If anything, Jesus is saying to not attack those who oppress you. Just pay your taxes. I think myself that the teaching of Jesus is to try and have empathy with your oppressor or your enemy. At least to understand where they are coming from. But your comment is telling. Do you believe that Arabs are driven, for the most part, by evil ideology? As the leaders of the Nazi's were? It might well be true of some of their leaders, but I think ordinary people everywhere just wish to lead ordinary lives, Arabs included. That doesn't mean that they aren't manipulated to hate, as I think we are. However, invading their country and dropping bombs (in Iraq) on them never helps.
|
|