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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 31, 2015 20:49:22 GMT -5
I think there might have been the fear of a power vacuum in the region at a time when a disruption of the oil supply would have been disastrous for the USA. That uncertainty coupled with the US business interests led government actions claiming to be seeking WMDs. It would be difficult to underestimate the influence of business interests on government actions. Remember United Fruit and the CIA actions in Guatemala and the other 'Banana Republics'! And Nixon and Chile. Between the Anaconda and Kennecott Copper companies (they owned more than 3/ 4 of Chile's copper output), ITT that owned Chile's telephone system, and the investments of PepsiCO in Chile the CIA had the funds and the authorization to do whatever they could to prevent Allende from assuming the presidency, including a military coup. Nixon's well known quote, “We will make squeal the Chilean economy”. These and other actions indicates what the government will do to protect US business interests. Somehow "We will make squeal the..." does not sound like a Nixon quote. Is there a typo in there somewhere, perhaps? www.democracynow.org/.../40_years_after_chiles_9_1... Nixon was supposed to have said, "Make the Economy Scream"
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Post by What Hat on Jan 31, 2015 21:28:41 GMT -5
So someone is "blaming the West" for this and you are setting the record straight. Who, and what are they saying? Good to know you don't "blame the West" Hat. There is probably not a failed state on the planet whose leadership doesn't blame the West for it's problems. Mugabe has been doing that for a very long time, and now Africa has chosen him for the role of African Union secretary. This discussion probably would have gone better had I never referred to "the West". It's divisive and unhelpful so I'll try to avoid it in future. Mugabe is a tyrant. Unfortunately, despots who rob their country blind have been a feature of post-colonial countries. Not universally so. Zimbabwe's neighbour, Zambia, has done quite well since independence. yknot mentioned Chinua Achebe. I have read a number of post-colonial writers some of whom are harsh critics of the countries they cover. V.S. Naipaul is such a writer, and his 'A Bend in the River' blew the whistle on countries like Zimbabwe, back in 1979. But that doesn't mean the West isn't responsible for some things or to some extent. A chilling novel on colonial repression is Gerry Coetzee's 'Waiting for the Barbarians'. Achebe's 'Things Fall Apart' is another classic in the post-colonial writing genre. My personal favourite is 'A House for Mr. Biswas' by V.S. Naipaul. Funny, comic and emotive, this is a highly enjoyable read.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 1, 2015 22:06:04 GMT -5
The first paper is quite interesting, but surprisingly contains quite a number of grammatical errors. I've read 5 pages of the second and it is quite promising, but I'll have to download it to my Kindle and read it later.
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2015 10:51:46 GMT -5
Somehow "We will make squeal the..." does not sound like a Nixon quote. Is there a typo in there somewhere, perhaps? It is an odd turn of the phrase. Edward Korry, US Ambassador during Allende’s administration, a few years ago declared:
“Nixon ordered to CIA that prevent Allende for assuming the presidency…for any means, including a military coup”. Then, the former ambassador said that three military generals swore loyalty to the intentions of Nixon.
Other sources exposed that when Nixon realized of Allende’s triumph. the US president said: “We will make squeal the Chilean economy”. From 1972, the economy was destabilized with funds providing by CIA to the right wing sectors in Chile in order to create an atmosphere of chaos in the country. democracities.com/tag/nixon/ Another source: [Richard] Helms's notes of the meeting show that Nixon wasted little breath in making his wishes known. Allende was not to assume office. "Not concerned risks involved. No involvement of embassy. $10,000,000 available, more if necessary. Full-time job - best men we have.... Make the economy scream. 48 hours for plan of action." www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Chile_TOHK.html I could not find another source that claimed to be quoting Nixon. Helms used the word 'scream' in his notes.
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Post by Gene on Feb 2, 2015 12:08:50 GMT -5
Somehow "We will make squeal the..." does not sound like a Nixon quote. Is there a typo in there somewhere, perhaps? It is an odd turn of the phrase. Edward Korry, US Ambassador during Allende’s administration, a few years ago declared:
“Nixon ordered to CIA that prevent Allende for assuming the presidency…for any means, including a military coup”. Then, the former ambassador said that three military generals swore loyalty to the intentions of Nixon.
Other sources exposed that when Nixon realized of Allende’s triumph. the US president said: “We will make squeal the Chilean economy”. From 1972, the economy was destabilized with funds providing by CIA to the right wing sectors in Chile in order to create an atmosphere of chaos in the country. democracities.com/tag/nixon/ Another source: [Richard] Helms's notes of the meeting show that Nixon wasted little breath in making his wishes known. Allende was not to assume office. "Not concerned risks involved. No involvement of embassy. $10,000,000 available, more if necessary. Full-time job - best men we have.... Make the economy scream. 48 hours for plan of action." www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Chile_TOHK.html I could not find another source that claimed to be quoting Nixon. Helms used the word 'scream' in his notes. "Make the economy scream" sounds more likely. As for the Edward Korry quote, it really starts with gibberish: "Nixon ordered to CIA that prevent Allende for assuming the presidency." Wow. So many errors, one wonders where to start...and one wonders what was actually said! Maybe this is a bad translation from English to Spanish to Russian to Turkish to Italian, to French and back to English?
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2015 12:16:26 GMT -5
It is an odd turn of the phrase. Edward Korry, US Ambassador during Allende’s administration, a few years ago declared:
“Nixon ordered to CIA that prevent Allende for assuming the presidency…for any means, including a military coup”. Then, the former ambassador said that three military generals swore loyalty to the intentions of Nixon.
Other sources exposed that when Nixon realized of Allende’s triumph. the US president said: “We will make squeal the Chilean economy”. From 1972, the economy was destabilized with funds providing by CIA to the right wing sectors in Chile in order to create an atmosphere of chaos in the country. democracities.com/tag/nixon/ Another source: [Richard] Helms's notes of the meeting show that Nixon wasted little breath in making his wishes known. Allende was not to assume office. "Not concerned risks involved. No involvement of embassy. $10,000,000 available, more if necessary. Full-time job - best men we have.... Make the economy scream. 48 hours for plan of action." www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Chile_TOHK.html I could not find another source that claimed to be quoting Nixon. Helms used the word 'scream' in his notes. "Make the economy scream" sounds more likely. As for the Edward Korry quote, it really starts with gibberish: "Nixon ordered to CIA that prevent Allende for assuming the presidency." Wow. So many errors, one wonders where to start...and one wonders what was actually said! Maybe this is a bad translation from English to Spanish to Russian to Turkish to Italian, to French and back to English? :D I think a lot of these were reconstructed from hand written notes. Looking at the copies of Helms' notes it is difficult to know what was said! The quote from Helms are just the bullet points from his notes.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 2, 2015 13:00:31 GMT -5
Somehow "We will make squeal the..." does not sound like a Nixon quote. Is there a typo in there somewhere, perhaps? It is an odd turn of the phrase. Edward Korry, US Ambassador during Allende’s administration, a few years ago declared:
“Nixon ordered to CIA that prevent Allende for assuming the presidency…for any means, including a military coup”. Then, the former ambassador said that three military generals swore loyalty to the intentions of Nixon.
Other sources exposed that when Nixon realized of Allende’s triumph. the US president said: “We will make squeal the Chilean economy”. From 1972, the economy was destabilized with funds providing by CIA to the right wing sectors in Chile in order to create an atmosphere of chaos in the country. democracities.com/tag/nixon/ Another source: [Richard] Helms's notes of the meeting show that Nixon wasted little breath in making his wishes known. Allende was not to assume office. "Not concerned risks involved. No involvement of embassy. $10,000,000 available, more if necessary. Full-time job - best men we have.... Make the economy scream. 48 hours for plan of action." www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Chile_TOHK.html I could not find another source that claimed to be quoting Nixon. Helms used the word 'scream' in his notes. I've been laughing about this phrase since you posted it, and it gets funnier every time I see it. (Although the background circumstances are by no means humorous. Our city took in quite a large number of the Chilean diaspora after Allende was overthrown.) Anyway, "we will make squeal the Chilean economy". No doubt this is an English translation of the Spanish translation of what Nixon originally said ... in English.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 2, 2015 16:37:40 GMT -5
Actually, I brought up a video by asking google: Nixon Chile "squeal"
and it brought up this site with a video
" Make the Economy Scream": Secret Documents Show Nixon www.democracynow.org/.../40_years_after_chiles_9_1...
Sep 10, 2013 - That same year President Nixon ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat ...
There is one bleeped out word of Nixon's but it doesn't seem to fit the word "scream." the whole conversation is hard to hear.
Now however, I can't go directly to that site.
I have to go back to the question to google: Nixon Chile "squeal"
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Post by Gene on Feb 2, 2015 18:20:45 GMT -5
Actually, I brought up a video by asking google: Nixon Chile "squeal"
and it brought up this site with a video
" Make the Economy Scream": Secret Documents Show Nixon www.democracynow.org/.../40_years_after_chiles_9_1...
Sep 10, 2013 - That same year President Nixon ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat ...
There is one bleeped out word of Nixon's but it doesn't seem to fit the word "scream." the whole conversation is hard to hear.
Now however, I can't go directly to that site.
I have to go back to the question to google: Nixon Chile "squeal"
I found the quote! "Hot DAMN," Nixon squealed. "That **** has got to be the hottest ***-****** chile I have EVER eaten!"
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2015 18:24:04 GMT -5
I found the quote! "Hot DAMN," Nixon squealed. "That **** has got to be the hottest ***-****** chile I have EVER eaten!" And to think that language was from a Quaker!
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 2, 2015 18:25:02 GMT -5
Actually, I brought up a video by asking google: Nixon Chile "squeal"
and it brought up this site with a video
" Make the Economy Scream": Secret Documents Show Nixon www.democracynow.org/.../40_years_after_chiles_9_1...
Sep 10, 2013 - That same year President Nixon ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat ...
There is one bleeped out word of Nixon's but it doesn't seem to fit the word "scream." the whole conversation is hard to hear.
Now however, I can't go directly to that site.
I have to go back to the question to google: Nixon Chile "squeal"
I found the quote! "Hot DAMN," Nixon squealed. "That **** has got to be the hottest ***-****** chile I have EVER eaten!" WOW! You must have found those "lost 18 minutes" of Rose Mary Woods!
Would you tell us the rest?
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Post by What Hat on Feb 8, 2015 9:37:10 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Feb 8, 2015 14:00:06 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Feb 8, 2015 20:37:40 GMT -5
More than a hundred prisoners released from Gitmo went back to the battlefield. I expect some radicalised Islamists could be unbrainwashed, but many will want to kill us no matter how we treat them. I can't imagine Islamists spending $US2.8 million to house each prisoner they capture. Neither can I imagine any modern democracy burning a prisoner to death in a cage, so we still have the moral high ground. Is it more humane overall to shoot them on the battlefield? It would prevent these guys from committing further atrocities. Would the world be worse off if Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had been shot rather than captured and then released?
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Post by snow on Feb 8, 2015 22:58:48 GMT -5
Torture is not the 'moral high ground'.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 8, 2015 23:20:48 GMT -5
More than a hundred prisoners released from Gitmo went back to the battlefield. I expect some radicalised Islamists could be unbrainwashed, but many will want to kill us no matter how we treat them. I can't imagine Islamists spending $US2.8 million to house each prisoner they capture. Neither can I imagine any modern democracy burning a prisoner to death in a cage, so we still have the moral high ground. Is it more humane overall to shoot them on the battlefield? It would prevent these guys from committing further atrocities. Would the world be worse off if Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had been shot rather than captured and then released? Somehow I'm thinking you did not read the link I provided. This particular prisoner was imprisoned and continually mistreated without any grounds for any wrongdoing against him. He wasn't taken from a battlefield; he was taken from his house in Mauritania where he worked as an engineer. This is not an isolated case, but it is what you can expect when the captors become police, judge and jury with no form of due process. "Moral high ground" means walking the talk. Otherwise it is just talk, and in the case of the USA that's all it is, or rather, has become.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 8, 2015 23:25:53 GMT -5
Victors, of course, are never subject to war crime trials. That's because the victors never commit any.
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 9:36:13 GMT -5
Victors, of course, are never subject to war crime trials. That's because the victors never commit any. They do commit the crimes, they are brought to light, frequently investigated, but most times nothing happens. Or there is a scape goat or two that gets charged. It happened after the killings by US troops at Dachau or in the jungles of Vietnam, at My Lai. There have been a number of atrocities that have been acknowledged but for one reason or another never brought to trial.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 9, 2015 10:41:27 GMT -5
Victors, of course, are never subject to war crime trials. That's because the victors never commit any. They do commit the crimes, they are brought to light, frequently investigated, but most times nothing happens. Or there is a scape goat or two that gets charged. It happened after the killings by US troops at Dachau or in the jungles of Vietnam, at My Lai. There have been a number of atrocities that have been acknowledged but for one reason or another never brought to trial. Slightly different area, but the difficulties of doing the right thing versus the necessity of following orders is a frequent theme in post-war movies and books. Most notably in 'The Caine Mutiny' but also in 'From Here to Eternity'.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 9, 2015 10:46:46 GMT -5
I find this new book on Guantanamo quite distressing because I do believe in Western values of democracy, an independent judiciary and a free press. But how do we convince the Arab world that this is the way forward for humanity when we so easily brush aside these pillars of our society? The fact is, the Republican/ Tea Party types don't understand these values themselves. Their actions are motivated out of some inherent sense of superiority based on religion and the Dallas Cowboys or who knows what, and they seem to have no understanding of the Enlightenment values that are the foundation of our well being. All they're succeeding in doing is making the rest of the world hate us.
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 11:20:21 GMT -5
I find this new book on Guantanamo quite distressing because I do believe in Western values of democracy, an independent judiciary and a free press. But how do we convince the Arab world that this is the way forward for humanity when we so easily brush aside these pillars of our society? The fact is, the Republican/ Tea Party types don't understand these values themselves. Their actions are motivated out of some inherent sense of superiority based on religion and the Dallas Cowboys or who knows what, and they seem to have no understanding of the Enlightenment values that are the foundation of our well being. All they're succeeding in doing is making the rest of the world hate us. It's pretty hard to lead by example when you're doing the same thing. I have noticed that when some do it, it's for a good cause, when others do it, it's terrorism. What it ends up looking like is a bunch of hypocrites.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2015 15:07:41 GMT -5
Thanks for linking to an opposing view. I'm sorry that your world view comes from people like Mark Danner.
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 17:48:41 GMT -5
I've seen several of these over time but every time it the enormity of the Gulf wars makes me want to cry. Not just for the citizens of the Gulf, but the soldiers that served there. I wonder how much I might learn to hate if someone came into my country and made it uninhabitable, watched my child suffer and die and know that it is sitting there for a very long time and I have to live in it.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 9, 2015 18:07:37 GMT -5
Thanks for linking to an opposing view. I'm sorry that your world view comes from people like Mark Danner. I have no idea who Mark Danner is, nor do I care. I take great care to research as much factual information as I can, and that's how I build my world view. I'll look at both sides of the argument, and I will read the 'Courting Disaster' book at some point.
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2015 18:22:12 GMT -5
Thanks for linking to an opposing view. I'm sorry that your world view comes from people like Mark Danner. I have no idea who Mark Danner is, nor do I care. I take great care to research as much factual information as I can, and that's how I build my world view. I'll look at both sides of the argument, and I will read the 'Courting Disaster' book at some point. Mark Danner wrote the NY Times article on the link you gave. He wrote from an anti-establishment perspective during the cold war. Some of what he writes may be true, but I expect he would find fault no matter what.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 9, 2015 21:03:45 GMT -5
I have no idea who Mark Danner is, nor do I care. I take great care to research as much factual information as I can, and that's how I build my world view. I'll look at both sides of the argument, and I will read the 'Courting Disaster' book at some point. Mark Danner wrote the NY Times article on the link you gave. He wrote from an anti-establishment perspective during the cold war. Some of what he writes may be true, but I expect he would find fault no matter what. I am thankful for the Mark Danner's of the world who get out from behind the flag waving "we are so morally superior " mentality and expose the dark underbelly of what really happens when we leave our ethics to to people like Bush & company.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 10, 2015 7:56:49 GMT -5
I have no idea who Mark Danner is, nor do I care. I take great care to research as much factual information as I can, and that's how I build my world view. I'll look at both sides of the argument, and I will read the 'Courting Disaster' book at some point. Mark Danner wrote the NY Times article on the link you gave. He wrote from an anti-establishment perspective during the cold war. Some of what he writes may be true, but I expect he would find fault no matter what. The article was a book review and a response to a book, not a comprehensive political analysis. I find his response much more reasonable than yours which seemed dismissive and unreasonable. For example, you wrote about battlefield POW's which is not the case here at all. You're working backward from your worldview and changing the facts to suit it.
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Post by fixit on Feb 10, 2015 14:37:39 GMT -5
The American taxpayer spends $US2.8 million per year to keep enemy prisoners housed, while the enemy burns it's prisoner alive and beheads aid workers and journalists.
That probably does make me impatient towards those who sympathise with the enemy and blame our civilisation for the problem.
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