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Post by matisse on Jan 27, 2015 13:10:13 GMT -5
...so you did not intend to imply that most other posts (posters) on this and other threads of TMB exhibit thoughtless irrationality? (Or some other similarly negative permutation) If you are unable to answer that question based what I have expressed over time, I will be unable to answer it in a manner that will be mutually satisfactory. Sorry. Based on some things you have expressed over time, I would expect you not to take pot shots at people who express a point of view that is different from yours.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 13:30:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure going back through your verbiage will do anything to dissuade Whathat of his assessment. I was raised and lived for 40 years in the society where Whathat lives, and by the age of 16 I clearly understood how it is that Americans cannot even appreciate the fundamental differences between Canadian and American society. To Americans, it is not really the West and the East -- it is the US and the rest of the world. Their sense of their uniqueness as the "indispensable" model for the rest of the world, in all things, is what insolates them from the ability to see anything evil in their own society. I make this statement because I know that one of the principles of the American education system has been to promote this sense of uniqueness in children -- they are uniquely endowed people simply because they are Americans. Can a society whose intransigence on such simple matters as measuring their highways the way the rest of the world does ... empathize with people who have a broader sense of their normal-ness with the rest of the world? I say this at the risk of having it sound personal, but I don't know that you're such an unusual American that you recognize what I'm talking about. I'm 67 and I still arrive at a brick wall when trying to make this point with the vast majority of Americans. My experience with people from other countries is that they understand perfectly what I'm talking about. I think it might take about 150 years more for Americans to understand this. FWIW I think "exceptionalism" is the word that is being debated at present. Those favoring abandonment of the concept as part of the national identity are currently in ascendancy and I presume will successfully achieve their objective. As SharonArnold pointed out in an earlier post these types of perceptions (abandonment of the sense of exceptionalism) often reach a tipping point and integrate themselves into a society rather rapidly. At the risk of being accused of jingoism and pretentious culture-o-centrism I will acknowledge that I believe that American society has made significant and meaningful contributions to the welfare of humanity. One of those contributions has been the development of personal awareness such that I can acknowledge the deficiencies of self and country and work toward their eradication while I continue to appreciate and work toward strengthening the positive contributions the society has made, as well. This is an explicit and conscious duality that I perceive as constructive and healthy for myself. A point frequently missed is that this duality can be expressed openly without impugning the character or contributions of others (individuals or societies). My reluctance to engage in broad and often stereotypical generalizations of people or societies is that I fear such generalizations mask and cloud the paths toward eventual understanding and accomodation.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 14:06:07 GMT -5
If you are unable to answer that question based what I have expressed over time, I will be unable to answer it in a manner that will be mutually satisfactory. Sorry. Based on some things you have expressed over time, I would expect you not to take pot shots at people who express a point of view that is different from yours. I appreciate and respect your point of view. In those instances where my comments have been considered pot shots at people with views other than my own, I have been at fault and regret the impressions left behind. Without specifics, I am unable to respond specifically. I have never perceived myself as one who takes pot shots at people with views other than my own but you feedback disabuses me of that notion. My responses to others are often (usually?) spirited and direct. Based on your input, I will attempt to reduce the probability that my comments are misinterpreted as pot shots. To facilitate this process may I ask that you flag the comment that you experience as a pot shot more quickly so that I might provide a more satisfactory explanation of my intent and meaning. Clearly you were offended by my response this morning to SharonArnold's post that had provided a specific link to a specific site and provided specific data. Prior to SharonArnold's post there had been a long exchange of comments which appeared grounded in opinion and un-cited authority. An aspect of rational discourse that I much appreciate is the availability of empirical data when available. SharonArnold provided a readily available source of such empirical data, I applauded her contribution. If the sentence "Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time." is what caused offense, I am sorry but in honesty I fear that I lack the empathy to perceive that as either dismissive or a pot shot. I am really uncertain as to how to back out of this apparent cul-de-sac with sincerety. Thoughts?
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 15:15:59 GMT -5
Thank you SharonArnold. Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time. The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture. There are, in fact, many problems with the culture. To say so does not automatically make it better or worse than any other culture. I favour a pragmatic approach to correcting problems rather than sweeping solutions. We seem to have gotten into a discussion of whether the problems found in Muslim culture are more the product of their own doing, or our doing. Who knows? Who cares? My concern is that Western hegemony over other cultures has often not been productive. Certainly the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a huge mistake, and it has not been good for us, and not been good for them, or the Western world in general. Now we've got a bigger problem in ISIS. ISIS would likely not have happened if we had stayed out of Iraq, or if the US had dealt with Iraqi Sunni's in more equitable fashion. I recommend this PBS documentary, also available on Netflix (in Canada). video.pbs.org/video/2365297690/Thanks for the link. I watched just over half so far so I won't say too much just yet. Yes, huge errors of judgement were made. More by the civilian leadership rather than the military. If someone like David Petraeus was put in charge of the occupation from the beginning instead of Bremer, and given the resources he needed, the outcome would have been much better. The following words of Petraeus is what should have been done from the beginning: I hope lessons learned are not lost, and also that the wrong conclusions are not taken.
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 15:27:03 GMT -5
If you are unable to answer that question based what I have expressed over time, I will be unable to answer it in a manner that will be mutually satisfactory. Sorry. Based on some things you have expressed over time, I would expect you not to take pot shots at people who express a point of view that is different from yours. Ynot is one of the most inoffensive participants on TMB. If the free expression of his views are an offense that's regrettable. Do we really want the board dumbed down to the extent that no one can take offense?
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Post by Mary on Jan 27, 2015 15:53:10 GMT -5
As has been expressed, victims of rape, sexual harassment and any unwanted sexual activity is able to be reported in our country. Is it more prevalent today than 100 years ago or in countries where victims are not supported or is it that victims are speaking out in our countries because they know they will be heard? In the past the same victims would not be able to speak out. It is the sort of thing that occurs behind closed doors in countries where victims do not report if for fear of what will happen to them.
Domestic violence, rape and other sexual crimes are not more prevalent in our society but it is reported more. It is rarely reported in many countries and not reported at all in some.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 27, 2015 15:53:27 GMT -5
Based on some things you have expressed over time, I would expect you not to take pot shots at people who express a point of view that is different from yours. Ynot is one of the most inoffensive participants on TMB. If the free expression of his views are an offense that's regrettable. Do we really want the board dumbed down to the extent that no one can take offense? I think yknot is way too polite for the rest of us here on the TMB. A true gentleman. Sometimes when I am tempted to take a cheap shot, the fact that he is reading here inhibits me. (It doesn't always stop me, but it does inhibit me.)
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 16:09:26 GMT -5
I regret your impression. ...so you did not intend to imply that most other posts (posters) on this and other threads of TMB exhibit thoughtless irrationality? (Or some other similarly negative permutation) I think you jumped to conclusions. Does anyone even read all the posts on TMB?
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Post by Mary on Jan 27, 2015 16:17:28 GMT -5
Nope, I don't read them all. It moves too fast for me to keep up with it.
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 17:04:25 GMT -5
I regret your impression. ...so you did not intend to imply that most other posts (posters) on this and other threads of TMB exhibit thoughtless irrationality? (Or some other similarly negative permutation) Come to think of it, if we say someone is clever it doesn't imply that everyone else is foolish. If we say someone is beautiful, it doesn't imply that everyone else is ugly.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 17:13:54 GMT -5
The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture. There are, in fact, many problems with the culture. To say so does not automatically make it better or worse than any other culture. I favour a pragmatic approach to correcting problems rather than sweeping solutions. We seem to have gotten into a discussion of whether the problems found in Muslim culture are more the product of their own doing, or our doing. Who knows? Who cares? My concern is that Western hegemony over other cultures has often not been productive. Certainly the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a huge mistake, and it has not been good for us, and not been good for them, or the Western world in general. Now we've got a bigger problem in ISIS. ISIS would likely not have happened if we had stayed out of Iraq, or if the US had dealt with Iraqi Sunni's in more equitable fashion. I recommend this PBS documentary, also available on Netflix (in Canada). video.pbs.org/video/2365297690/Thanks for the link. I watched just over half so far so I won't say too much just yet. Yes, huge errors of judgement were made. More by the civilian leadership rather than the military. If someone like David Petraeus was put in charge of the occupation from the beginning instead of Bremer, and given the resources he needed, the outcome would have been much better. The following words of Petraeus is what should have been done from the beginning: I hope lessons learned are not lost, and also that the wrong conclusions are not taken. Yes, it would seem the mistakes were made by the civilians than the military. That's because the military had on-the-ground experience. Something. To be said for listening to what people who know tell you.
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Post by matisse on Jan 27, 2015 17:14:16 GMT -5
...so you did not intend to imply that most other posts (posters) on this and other threads of TMB exhibit thoughtless irrationality? (Or some other similarly negative permutation) Come to think of it, if we say someone is clever it doesn't imply that everyone else is foolish. If we say someone is beautiful, it doesn't imply that everyone else is ugly. I fully agree. Try these: "It is refreshing to catch a whiff of cleverness around here from time to time." "It is refreshing to catch a glimpse of beauty around here from time to time." To me, these statements imply that cleverness and beauty are scarce - i.e. that most "around here" are not clever or beautiful.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 17:17:25 GMT -5
As has been expressed, victims of rape, sexual harassment and any unwanted sexual activity is able to be reported in our country. Is it more prevalent today than 100 years ago or in countries where victims are not supported or is it that victims are speaking out in our countries because they know they will be heard? In the past the same victims would not be able to speak out. It is the sort of thing that occurs behind closed doors in countries where victims do not report if for fear of what will happen to them. Domestic violence, rape and other sexual crimes are not more prevalent in our society but it is reported more. It is rarely reported in many countries and not reported at all in some. You've been or lived in Turkey, I think? Do young women worry about going out on the street in the same way they do here? Are they harassed as they can be on our streets?
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Post by matisse on Jan 27, 2015 17:33:56 GMT -5
Based on some things you have expressed over time, I would expect you not to take pot shots at people who express a point of view that is different from yours. I appreciate and respect your point of view. In those instances where my comments have been considered pot shots at people with views other than my own, I have been at fault and regret the impressions left behind. Without specifics, I am unable to respond specifically. I have never perceived myself as one who takes pot shots at people with views other than my own but you feedback disabuses me of that notion. My responses to others are often (usually?) spirited and direct. Based on your input, I will attempt to reduce the probability that my comments are misinterpreted as pot shots. To facilitate this process may I ask that you flag the comment that you experience as a pot shot more quickly so that I might provide a more satisfactory explanation of my intent and meaning. Clearly you were offended by my response this morning to SharonArnold's post that had provided a specific link to a specific site and provided specific data. Prior to SharonArnold's post there had been a long exchange of comments which appeared grounded in opinion and un-cited authority. An aspect of rational discourse that I much appreciate is the availability of empirical data when available. SharonArnold provided a readily available source of such empirical data, I applauded her contribution. If the sentence "Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time." is what caused offense, I am sorry but in honesty I fear that I lack the empathy to perceive that as either dismissive or a pot shot. I am really uncertain as to how to back out of this apparent cul-de-sac with sincerety. Thoughts? I was not much, if at all offended....more surprised and somewhat amused. I associate you with painstaking politeness. I was remiss in reading more into your phrasing than was there and making a rather off-the-cuff observation. My apologies....thanks for explaining.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 17:37:29 GMT -5
Try this one: "It's a rare treat to see someone beautiful like you around here." Point well taken. You make a convincing and valid point. I generally do not tack that close to the wind, had never considered it necessary. You have raised my consciousness. Will simply have to assess the relative costs of achieving a universally acceptable tone and form of expression compared to the the value perceived from a more relaxed dialog among colleagues and friends. Your feedback will be appreciated. Thanks for the illustrative example, well done.
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Post by Mary on Jan 27, 2015 17:41:14 GMT -5
As has been expressed, victims of rape, sexual harassment and any unwanted sexual activity is able to be reported in our country. Is it more prevalent today than 100 years ago or in countries where victims are not supported or is it that victims are speaking out in our countries because they know they will be heard? In the past the same victims would not be able to speak out. It is the sort of thing that occurs behind closed doors in countries where victims do not report if for fear of what will happen to them. Domestic violence, rape and other sexual crimes are not more prevalent in our society but it is reported more. It is rarely reported in many countries and not reported at all in some. You've been or lived in Turkey, I think? Do young women worry about going out on the street in the same way they do here? Are they harassed as they can be on our streets? Turkey is mixed. Some are covered, some are western style. A lot of woman cover their heads. Yes woman would be harassed the same if not more on the streets as they are here. Why not? A woman who does not have her head covered in many Muslim countries are considered harlots and fair game. No way would I go anywhere in Jordan with my head not covered even though some do not cover their heads in the capital city. Every where I went in Egypt I was harassed by men exposing their penis' when I walked down isles in shops. And along the water front in Alexander 2 men converged on me - one from the front, one from back so I crossed the road and went into a big international hotel until it was safe to continue. A woman is not safe on her own in these countries. They are fair game. men banging on my hotel door wanting to come in. Those countries are unsafe for women without a male with them. I was harassed once in Turkey so never went out alone again in Turkey and made sure I always had a man with me. A threatening and intimidating man when I would not hope in the car with him. He asked did I think he would do something to me. Yes, but of course I did not say anything. I feel far safer in a western country than a Muslim country unless I had a male with me. Most Muslim countries I would not go out without a scarf but that is also due to women's responses too.
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Post by snow on Jan 27, 2015 17:46:34 GMT -5
I am likely the one to blame. I think it my comment that started all this about the west and it's contribution to society. I was referring to the book 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' by John Perkins. Anyone who has read this book would understand where I was coming from when I talk about how the west has messed with third world countries economically. As far as culture, individual contributions etc, of course the west has contributed. Sometimes for the better sometimes not. I in no way meant to address the whole gamut of contributions just how we have really done some pretty horrendous things too some countries. Putting in political puppets making them rich and the country poorer in the end are all topics in that book. We do know this has happened and since he was once hired to do this kind of thing, it was quite enlightening. So I don't really see what is wrong with reflecting on what has been done in that area and hoping that by our reflection that wrongs have been done that we can prevent them from happening again. We must first be aware of our mistakes before we can ever hope to correct them in the future. I gave a link to his pdf book if anyone is interested in reading it. It truly makes you think. Now if I have offended anyone I apologize.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 18:02:33 GMT -5
I was not much, if at all offended....more surprised and somewhat amused. I associate you with painstaking politeness. I was remiss in reading more into your phrasing than was there and making a rather off-the-cuff observation. My apologies....thanks for explaining. You are welcome. No, I do not associate myself with "painstaking politeness". Rather, I crave honest and constructive dialog. Civility has always preceded mutual understanding in my experience. One of the reasons that "Je ne suis pas Charlie" is because I have been unable to perceive civility or respect on any side of a very complex issue. (My perspective is expressed more succinctly in my very first post on this thread.) Thanks for your comments and feedback.
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Post by matisse on Jan 27, 2015 18:17:23 GMT -5
Try this one: "It's a rare treat to see someone beautiful like you around here." Point well taken. You make a convincing and valid point. I generally do not tack that close to the wind, had never considered it necessary. You have raised my consciousness. Will simply have to assess the relative costs of achieving a universally acceptable tone and form of expression compared to the the value perceived from a more relaxed dialog among colleagues and friends. Your feedback will be appreciated. Thanks for the illustrative example, well done. I prefer the more relaxed approach to dialog, especially is there is a basic sense of good will among participants. In addition, given my own sometimes seemingly natural aptitude for inadvertently offending, I cannot imagine myself achieving a "universally acceptable tone and form of expression"!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 18:53:09 GMT -5
Can a society whose intransigence on such simple matters as measuring their highways the way the rest of the world does ... empathize with people who have a broader sense of their normal-ness with the rest of the world? Ha! Now, I am not an American-bashing Canadian - far from it - but there is a point here. BTW, (this is probably deserving its own thread) has anyone here seen "American Sniper"? Actually, I'm not an American-bashing Canadian either. In fact, I am an American citizen BY CHOICE, unlike anyone born here -- and my reason for coming here was neither because I was destitute nor a refugee -- and I came with the full understanding that I was not going to be financially better off or enjoy more professional working conditions. Not surprisingly, I got exactly what I expected -- and I'm not about to tell people I regret it. All I'm saying is something I know and understand, and it is something that the run of the mill Americans DON'T know and understand. And like I said -- I don't think this generation of Americans has the wherewithal to understand. The only really annoying part of all this is that well educated people presume to tell me that I don't understand anything that they can't understand. Come to think of it -- I did meet a university professor who addressed this very matter in a conference I attended here in Las Vegas. A sizeable portion of the people in attendance appeared not to know what she was talking about, but she was very eloquent in making her point.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 19:05:24 GMT -5
I am likely the one to blame. I think it my comment that started all this about the west and it's contribution to society. I was referring to the book 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' by John Perkins. Anyone who has read this book would understand where I was coming from when I talk about how the west has messed with third world countries economically. As far as culture, individual contributions etc, of course the west has contributed. Sometimes for the better sometimes not. I in no way meant to address the whole gamut of contributions just how we have really done some pretty horrendous things too some countries. Putting in political puppets making them rich and the country poorer in the end are all topics in that book. We do know this has happened and since he was once hired to do this kind of thing, it was quite enlightening. So I don't really see what is wrong with reflecting on what has been done in that area and hoping that by our reflection that wrongs have been done that we can prevent them from happening again. We must first be aware of our mistakes before we can ever hope to correct them in the future. I gave a link to his pdf book if anyone is interested in reading it. It truly makes you think. Now if I have offended anyone I apologize. I will do the offending for you. Non-Americans don't seem get a free pass in "modifying" Americans' perception of their contribution to the rest of the world. I've been called on the carpet for repeating fellow-American teachers' comments on American society, and had parents complaining to the principal because I said such things in hearing distance of their children. What can I say? Every time I take them to task for making those accusations of me I discover they more than not agree with me -- they just think I'm not appreciative enough for being allowed to become a US citizen.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 19:32:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure going back through your verbiage will do anything to dissuade Whathat of his assessment. I was raised and lived for 40 years in the society where Whathat lives, and by the age of 16 I clearly understood how it is that Americans cannot even appreciate the fundamental differences between Canadian and American society. To Americans, it is not really the West and the East -- it is the US and the rest of the world. Their sense of their uniqueness as the "indispensable" model for the rest of the world, in all things, is what insolates them from the ability to see anything evil in their own society. I make this statement because I know that one of the principles of the American education system has been to promote this sense of uniqueness in children -- they are uniquely endowed people simply because they are Americans. Can a society whose intransigence on such simple matters as measuring their highways the way the rest of the world does ... empathize with people who have a broader sense of their normal-ness with the rest of the world? I say this at the risk of having it sound personal, but I don't know that you're such an unusual American that you recognize what I'm talking about. I'm 67 and I still arrive at a brick wall when trying to make this point with the vast majority of Americans. My experience with people from other countries is that they understand perfectly what I'm talking about. I think it might take about 150 years more for Americans to understand this. FWIW I think "exceptionalism" is the word that is being debated at present. Actually "exceptionalism" is a few years old now. The 2014 word is "indispensable nation". The first term I heard being used for this concept was "American ingenuity". I'm waiting to see what new superlative we will be fed in 2016. It will be extremely painful for Americans if and when they do. Example: Russians today. This doesn't make any sense. The people who have these perceptions that I was talking about ARE the society -- there is no other society for them to integrate into. The perception will not change until the nation is humbled before the rest of the world. No one questions that the US has made contributions. There is nothing exceptional in that at all. But something about Americans' contributions confirms what I've been talking about. I often describe it this way: "No discovery is really official until some American discovers it to be marketable." That sounds more like a personal enlightenment than a national trend. Except is you're a non-American making the point. Don't get me wrong -- I've tested this point, and Americans are just too defensive of their superiority to actually be that explicit about their deficiencies to the rest of the world. Well, with a few Tea-partiers in the mix, all one can expect is a cloud anyway.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 19:52:44 GMT -5
I am likely the one to blame. I think it my comment that started all this about the west and it's contribution to society. I was referring to the book 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' by John Perkins. Anyone who has read this book would understand where I was coming from when I talk about how the west has messed with third world countries economically. As far as culture, individual contributions etc, of course the west has contributed. Sometimes for the better sometimes not. I in no way meant to address the whole gamut of contributions just how we have really done some pretty horrendous things too some countries. Putting in political puppets making them rich and the country poorer in the end are all topics in that book. We do know this has happened and since he was once hired to do this kind of thing, it was quite enlightening. So I don't really see what is wrong with reflecting on what has been done in that area and hoping that by our reflection that wrongs have been done that we can prevent them from happening again. We must first be aware of our mistakes before we can ever hope to correct them in the future. I gave a link to his pdf book if anyone is interested in reading it. It truly makes you think. Now if I have offended anyone I apologize. Snow, in my opinion, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for and no one to apologize to. You read a book, developed and over-arching opinion and expressed that opinion. That is what we all do on this board. I, for one, was not offended by your comments. I do have a different over-arching opinion, one that is significantly at variance with the one you expressed and I attempted to explain why I disagreed with your POV. In my insular world that is the whole point of a discussion board, hopefully moving toward better mutual understanding and appreciation of each other's point of view. I have gone back and read your comments referencing 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'. I have also reread my responses to your posts. I am probably less sensitive to putative cultural-centric perspectives than others on this board but I am still unable to ferret out the sentences, phrases and or clauses that have left this impression in anyone's mind. I acknowledged that I have not read John Perkins book and why (the reviews - they suggested differences of opinion about topics for which I lack the sophistication to discern valid information suitable to form useful personal opinions so I set that book aside, even though we owned it). The decision to not read the book was strictly a personal cost/benefit analysis, it was not an ideologically informed decision. I do hope that others will join me in clarifying that "blame" is not an appropriate context for describing your earlier contributions to this thread.
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 19:57:44 GMT -5
As a non-American who has travelled to the US a couple of times, and done business with Americans spanning more than three decades, I can say that I have the highest respect for the American people. Sure, I think there's a lot about their country they could improve but the world would be very much the poorer without the US of A. Young people like getting around with American memorabilia, listening to American music and watching American movies. I think it's nonsense to assume that Americans are disliked around the world - apart from in basket case countries where our secular freedoms are despised.
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Post by Mary on Jan 27, 2015 20:36:46 GMT -5
Interesting that those from countries where secular freedom is disposed seek to go to these countries as they see them better than their own.
When I was in America I was surprised to hear someone say that we are the greatest country on earth and people are jealous of us. This was out of the blue with no provocation from anyone. I didn't know we were supposed to think like that. I certainly didn't. I prefer my little corner of the world or something a bit more exotic than America.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 21:04:25 GMT -5
Actually "exceptionalism" is a few years old now. The 2014 word is "indispensable nation". The first term I heard being used for this concept was "American ingenuity". I'm waiting to see what new superlative we will be fed in 2016. Phew, my head is spinning after reading your responses. I hope they were mostly written with tongue in cheek, but I will respond as if you are serious (or at least I will attempt to respond in that manner). Would be interested in a referenced citation of “indispensable nation” as the words to be debated in 2014. I am an old man and frequently fail to keep pace with the subtle nuances of pop culture. We must have two different understandings of the meaning of tipping point. I see no value in clarifying my understanding. Hope you didn’t actually bite your tongue on this one. I interpret your response as being so far beyond the pale I am left nearly clueless. It is a weak retort but I will send along a link to the nationalities of Nobel Prize winners all of whom are deeply respected (by Americans) for their unique contributions to science, completely independent of country of origin: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country I am embarrassed by the lameness of my response but the way you “often describe it” is simply so foreign to my way of thinking, I must cry uncle. I won't even embarrass myself by attempting to respond. You win. You beat me. Another notch in your search for clueless Americans. How strange, it is a statement about personal enlightenment. Turns out, that is one of the freedoms allowed in America (and many other geo-political entities around the globe, lest you think I am being jingoistic). As I said above, you earned another notch this evening. Count ‘em up baby, you’re a winner pulling away. (any other response would lend dignity to the assertion)
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 21:19:42 GMT -5
It has been a tough day for this old man . . . . .
but as I always say . . . . yknot?
I do wish that whathat had chosen to respond to my expressions of discomfort with his characterization of my thinking. It would have been nice to have ironed out that little wrinkle. Perhaps tomorrow.
I am delighted that matisse and I were able to move a little closer to mutual understanding.
I deeply appreciated the expressions of support along the way.
This thread is not about me but I do have strong convictions. I felt that those convictions were being misrepresented prompting me to attempt to explain those convictions more clearly. If I have succeeded I am pleased, if not it is unfortunate I took up so much space in the effort.
Have a good evening everyone.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 21:25:01 GMT -5
Actually "exceptionalism" is a few years old now. The 2014 word is "indispensable nation". The first term I heard being used for this concept was "American ingenuity". I'm waiting to see what new superlative we will be fed in 2016. Phew, my head is spinning after reading your responses. I hope they were mostly written with tongue in cheek, but I will respond as if you are serious (or at least I will attempt to respond in that manner). Would be interested in a referenced citation of “indispensable nation” as the words to be debated in 2014. I am an old man and frequently fail to keep pace with the subtle nuances of pop culture. We must have two different understandings of the meaning of tipping point. I see no value in clarifying my understanding. Hope you didn’t actually bite your tongue on this one. I interpret your response as being so far beyond the pale I am left nearly clueless. It is a weak retort but I will send along a link to the nationalities of Nobel Prize winners all of whom are deeply respected (by Americans) for their unique contributions to science, completely independent of country of origin: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country I am embarrassed by the lameness of my response but the way you “often describe it” is simply so foreign to my way of thinking, I must cry uncle. I won't even embarrass myself by attempting to respond. You win. You beat me. Another notch in your search for clueless Americans. How strange, it is a statement about personal enlightenment. Turns out, that is one of the freedoms allowed in America (and many other geo-political entities around the globe, lest you think I am being jingoistic). As I said above, you earned another notch this evening. Count ‘em up baby, you’re a winner pulling away. (any other response would lend dignity to the assertion) Nothing tongue in cheek at all -- and I wasn't thinking of Nobel Prize winners either. But who want to know what I was thinking of? I've heard the "indispensable nation" comment a few times. Check Hillary Clinton's speeches in 2014, but don't ask me which one. I didn't record it. Otherwise, I find you a pretty normal American.
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