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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2015 1:27:36 GMT -5
No, I'm not in favour of indiscriminate bombing. Where did you get that from? Bombs are not considered precise weapons. Can you support your claim? The rape rate for the US in 2010 was 27.3. The rape rate for Syria in 2008 was 0.8. I will let you draw your own conclusions or provide some data to refute these statistics. (BTW - the rates are the number of rapes per 100,000 citizens.)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 1:43:22 GMT -5
Did you, BRW, notice all the Muslim women at the SAG awards the other night? There are a lot of white Westerners who don't want to kill Muslims. I guess you didn't know there were Muslim women at the SAG awards ceremony.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 1:45:49 GMT -5
My post wasn't about women in Islamic countries !
For you to accuse women for wearing a burka for the reason that you give is being just as sexist as those that you complain against!
help me out here - why do they wear burqas? They're so butt ugly they can't get men to look at them for any other reason.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 1:56:29 GMT -5
You seem to be focusing on particular groups for little reason. You are in favor of indiscriminate bombing of Islamic jihadists but do not even mention the countries with the highest rape rates: Lesotho Trinidad & Tobago Sweden Korea New Zealand United States of America Belgium Zimbabwe United Kingdom I am guessing that in some cases the criminals are not Islamic jihadists. Maybe they are all atheists. No, I'm not in favour of indiscriminate bombing. Where did you get that from? BTW, I'm in favour of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights which protects men and children as well as women. Your rape statistics are skewed towards the countries who have the most accurate reporting in place. Are you suggesting that a woman is more likely to be raped or murdered in the US than in Syria? I could believe that, simply given the statistics for the US.
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 2:31:29 GMT -5
Nothing I write will change the negative attitudes of folks on this thread towards their country. Good night.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 7:04:23 GMT -5
You seem to be focusing on particular groups for little reason. You are in favor of indiscriminate bombing of Islamic jihadists but do not even mention the countries with the highest rape rates: Lesotho Trinidad & Tobago Sweden Korea New Zealand United States of America Belgium Zimbabwe United Kingdom I am guessing that in some cases the criminals are not Islamic jihadists. Maybe they are all atheists. No, I'm not in favour of indiscriminate bombing. Where did you get that from? BTW, I'm in favour of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights which protects men and children as well as women. Your rape statistics are skewed towards the countries who have the most accurate reporting in place. Are you suggesting that a woman is more likely to be raped or murdered in the US than in Syria? No question.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 7:08:06 GMT -5
Nothing I write will change the negative attitudes of folks on this thread towards their country. Good night. The US has devolved to what many young women refer to as 'rape culture'. Traditional cultures embed the suppression of women but they also protect women, thus there is less rape.
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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2015 7:26:30 GMT -5
Nothing I write will change the negative attitudes of folks on this thread towards their country. Good night. :) Others support their claims with data that anyone can verify on their own. So far you have supported your claims with your emotions and little data for readers to evaluate. Hope you had a good night.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 27, 2015 9:52:03 GMT -5
The rape rate for the US in 2010 was 27.3. The rape rate for Syria in 2008 was 0.8. I will let you draw your own conclusions or provide some data to refute these statistics. I could believe that, simply given the statistics for the US. The US has devolved to what many young women refer to as 'rape culture'. Traditional cultures embed the suppression of women but they also protect women, thus there is less rape. Now, guys…really???!!! Time for some consciousness raising from Wiki: Rape Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics)(The sections on the different countries are also worth reading.) A brief excerpt, for those who are adverse to clicking on a link: “Statistics on rape and other sexual assaults are commonly available in advanced countries, and are becoming more common throughout the world. Inconsistent definitions of rape, different rates of reporting, recording, prosecution and conviction for rape create controversial statistical disparities, and lead to accusations that many rape statistics are unreliable or misleading.” … “In many parts of the world, rape is very rarely reported, due to the extreme social stigma cast on women who have been raped, or the fear of being disowned by their families, or subjected to violence, including honor killings. Furthermore, in countries where adultery and/or premarital sex are illegal, victims of rape can face prosecution under these laws, if there is not sufficient evidence to prove a rape in the court. Even if they can prove their rape case, evidence during investigation may surface showing that they were not virgins at the time of the rape, which, if they are unmarried, opens the door for prosecution. Countries may or may not criminalize marital rape, and, in many countries which do criminalize it, prosecutions for it are exceptionally rare. Sexual activity in marriage is, in many parts of the world, considered an absolute right of the husband that can be taken with or without the consent of his wife; the very act of a woman refusing to have sex with her husband may be considered unthinkable...”
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 10:21:41 GMT -5
Thank you SharonArnold.
Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 10:25:32 GMT -5
The rape rate for the US in 2010 was 27.3. The rape rate for Syria in 2008 was 0.8. I will let you draw your own conclusions or provide some data to refute these statistics. I could believe that, simply given the statistics for the US. The US has devolved to what many young women refer to as 'rape culture'. Traditional cultures embed the suppression of women but they also protect women, thus there is less rape. Now, guys…really???!!! Time for some consciousness raising from Wiki: Rape Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics)(The sections on the different countries are also worth reading.) A brief excerpt, for those who are adverse to clicking on a link: “Statistics on rape and other sexual assaults are commonly available in advanced countries, and are becoming more common throughout the world. Inconsistent definitions of rape, different rates of reporting, recording, prosecution and conviction for rape create controversial statistical disparities, and lead to accusations that many rape statistics are unreliable or misleading.” … “In many parts of the world, rape is very rarely reported, due to the extreme social stigma cast on women who have been raped, or the fear of being disowned by their families, or subjected to violence, including honor killings. Furthermore, in countries where adultery and/or premarital sex are illegal, victims of rape can face prosecution under these laws, if there is not sufficient evidence to prove a rape in the court. Even if they can prove their rape case, evidence during investigation may surface showing that they were not virgins at the time of the rape, which, if they are unmarried, opens the door for prosecution. Countries may or may not criminalize marital rape, and, in many countries which do criminalize it, prosecutions for it are exceptionally rare. Sexual activity in marriage is, in many parts of the world, considered an absolute right of the husband that can be taken with or without the consent of his wife; the very act of a woman refusing to have sex with her husband may be considered unthinkable...” (The reason the question has come up, and I've commonly encountered this, is that people have the false idea that rape is rampant in Hindu and Muslim countries. I think that general accusations of this nature are being used to attack these cultures. I worry that persecution of POC will increase based on the kind of false innuendo's that are making the rounds these days.) Not only is it difficult to understand what is behind the statistics but the nature of rape in our wide open Western societies is different from the nature of rape in a traditional culture. Male sexual predators are a constant within humanity; they will be enabled or inhibited differently in modern society compared to traditional cultures. However, I do believe that where there is "community" there is less rape. My statement, that there is more rape in Western culture, is based on colloquial evidence combined with statistics, but I don't really know; it's my best guess based on the evidence. It is safe to say though that women generally feel safer in Muslim countries. Our streets are not safe for women at night, and our university campuses certainly are not safe. On the other hand, Muslim culture is male-dominated and repressive to women generally (in the same way that traditional Christian culture has been). Also, within traditional cultures male sexual predators will prey on those who are weak, isolated or vulnerable. They get away with it, and this does not show up in the statistics. But we also know that a lot of 'date rape' doesn't show up in our statistics. The question is worth further inquiry. This isn't a dinner party topic, so it's an area in which I can certainly inform myself. It looks like I'm going to need to. An interesting article: repub.eur.nl/pub/15669/
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 10:29:37 GMT -5
(Now, explaining what I was getting at may present its own challenges.) I was meaning that the majority of the people on the planet are here, probably for the foreseeable future (i.e., not leaving the planet for a while), along with all the life lessons/ wisdom that they have accumulated thus far. So it represents a kind of stability in terms of evolving consciousness in human kind. SharonArnold, this idea of “evolving consciousness in human kind” that you mention in your post is fascinating. Do you suppose it might be possible to push the envelope just a bit further and explore some of the “who, what, when, where and how’s” of the idea? My first thought was of Betty Williams and Mairead Corrigan and the Peace People in Northern Ireland during the early/mid 1970’s. Here were two women touched by a tragic event within a tragic time who took their accumulated life lessons/wisdom and made a difference, for awhile. A Nobel Prize was awarded, and secondary movements have been spawned (e.g. Nobel Women’s Initiative). But reading retrospectives 40 years later one can see that the wolves of negativity have circled and ripped the heart of passion for peace from the movements. If you consider this one, perhaps arcane and isolated example, how would you begin to weave the experience into the narrative of an evolving consciousness? If one takes the long view, perhaps considers the Northern Ireland experiences over a 200-300 year time-period and in the context of global peace, how does one fit this one small event into a meaningful context? Is it a pearl cast before swine? Is it a pebble in an emerging mosaic of enlightened consciousness? Or is it one of those memes that will contribute to an eventual tipping point that you mentioned in an earlier post?
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 10:40:23 GMT -5
Thank you SharonArnold. Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time. The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture. There are, in fact, many problems with the culture. To say so does not automatically make it better or worse than any other culture. I favour a pragmatic approach to correcting problems rather than sweeping solutions. We seem to have gotten into a discussion of whether the problems found in Muslim culture are more the product of their own doing, or our doing. Who knows? Who cares? My concern is that Western hegemony over other cultures has often not been productive. Certainly the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a huge mistake, and it has not been good for us, and not been good for them, or the Western world in general. Now we've got a bigger problem in ISIS. ISIS would likely not have happened if we had stayed out of Iraq, or if the US had dealt with Iraqi Sunni's in more equitable fashion. I recommend this PBS documentary, also available on Netflix (in Canada). video.pbs.org/video/2365297690/
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 10:50:51 GMT -5
Not only is it difficult to understand what is behind the statistics but the nature of rape in our wide open Western societies is different from the nature of rape in a traditional culture. Male sexual predators are a constant within humanity; they will be enabled or inhibited differently in modern society compared to traditional cultures. However, I do believe that where there is "community" there is less rape. My statement, that there is more rape in Western culture, is based on colloquial evidence combined with statistics, but I don't really know; it's my best guess based on the evidence. It is safe to say though that women generally feel safer in Muslim countries. Our streets are not safe for women at night, and our university campuses certainly are not safe. On the other hand, Muslim culture is male-dominated and repressive to women generally (in the same way that traditional Christian culture has been). Also, within traditional cultures male sexual predators will prey on those who are weak, isolated or vulnerable. They get away with it, and this does not show up in the statistics. But we also know that a lot of 'date rape' doesn't show up in our statistics. The question is worth further inquiry. This isn't a dinner party topic, so it's an area in which I can certainly inform myself. An interesting article: repub.eur.nl/pub/15669/May I suggest some of Steven Pinker's work. Regarding rape specifically his book "The Better Angels of Our Nature" may offer an interesting perspective for your consideration. I find his work, starting with "The Blank Slate" to be enlightening and provocative. P.S. I am a huge fan of Ayann Hirsi Ali. I was very disappointed this past year as progressives began to turn their collective backs on her insight (note events at Yale and Brandeis Universities(?)).
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 11:05:45 GMT -5
Thank you SharonArnold. Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time. The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture. There are, in fact, many problems with the culture. To say so does not automatically make it better or worse than any other culture. I favour a pragmatic approach to correcting problems rather than sweeping solutions. We seem to have gotten into a discussion of whether the problems found in Muslim culture are more the product of their own doing, or our doing. Who knows? Who cares? My concern is that Western hegemony over other cultures has often not been productive. Certainly the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a huge mistake, and it has not been good for us, and not been good for them, or the Western world in general. Now we've got a bigger problem in ISIS. ISIS would likely not have happened if we had stayed out of Iraq, or if the US had dealt with Iraqi Sunni's in more equitable fashion. I recommend this PBS documentary, also available on Netflix (in Canada). video.pbs.org/video/2365297690/Come on whathat. Please review all of my verbiage on this thread or on this board and select a comment, sentence and or phrase that supports your assertion: "The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture." I reserve the right to correct, modify and or delete any entry that you present in support of your contention. I will state categorical that your impression is the sole consequence of my inability to express my opinions with adequate clarity such that all viewers (independent of perspective) can derive an accurate understanding of my "thinking". I am unaware of any difficulty with my thinking "in accepting that there is any problem with Western culture." Should my protestations to the contrary be inadequate to unequivocally convince you to the contrary, I will invest the necessary labor to crawl back through my verbiage to produce what I hope will be adequate evidence to the contrary for an objective observer. Please advise. Thanks
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Post by matisse on Jan 27, 2015 11:07:48 GMT -5
Thank you SharonArnold. Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time. I detect a note of sweeping dismissiveness here!
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 11:18:27 GMT -5
(Now, explaining what I was getting at may present its own challenges.) I was meaning that the majority of the people on the planet are here, probably for the foreseeable future (i.e., not leaving the planet for a while), along with all the life lessons/ wisdom that they have accumulated thus far. So it represents a kind of stability in terms of evolving consciousness in human kind. SharonArnold, this idea of “evolving consciousness in human kind” that you mention in your post is fascinating. Do you suppose it might be possible to push the envelope just a bit further and explore some of the “who, what, when, where and how’s” of the idea? My first thought was of Betty Williams and Mairead Corrigan and the Peace People in Northern Ireland during the early/mid 1970’s. Here were two women touched by a tragic event within a tragic time who took their accumulated life lessons/wisdom and made a difference, for awhile. A Nobel Prize was awarded, and secondary movements have been spawned (e.g. Nobel Women’s Initiative). But reading retrospectives 40 years later one can see that the wolves of negativity have circled and ripped the heart of passion for peace from the movements. If you consider this one, perhaps arcane and isolated example, how would you begin to weave the experience into the narrative of an evolving consciousness? If one takes the long view, perhaps considers the Northern Ireland experiences over a 200-300 year time-period and in the context of global peace, how does one fit this one small event into a meaningful context? Is it a pearl cast before swine? Is it a pebble in an emerging mosaic of enlightened consciousness? Or is it one of those memes that will contribute to an eventual tipping point that you mentioned in an earlier post? A really quick brush up on the issue of Northern Ireland seems to indicate that protecting the Catholic minority in Ireland through pro-active measures, e.g. hiring more Catholic police, has quelled the violence. www.cfr.org/peace-conflict-and-human-rights/northern-ireland-peace-process/p31552According to this report, imbalances remain. More Catholic poor, more Catholic unemployed, but the imbalances do not seem great. Here is a telling paragraph from the above. Unemployment rates are lower but a sectarian imbalance remains among men. Nearly 12 percent of Catholic men were out of work compared to 7.4 percent of Protestant men, according to the 2011 census released by Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, the latest official tally that breaks down data by religion. But the gap is shrinking from the 30 percent Catholic unemployment rate registered in some parts of Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Since I know little about the subject as northern Ireland has not been in the news for some time, I wonder how Williams and Corrigan might have contributed to Catholic minority interests in northern Ireland.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 27, 2015 11:21:37 GMT -5
Not only is it difficult to understand what is behind the statistics but the nature of rape in our wide open Western societies is different from the nature of rape in a traditional culture. Male sexual predators are a constant within humanity; they will be enabled or inhibited differently in modern society compared to traditional cultures. However, I do believe that where there is "community" there is less rape. My statement, that there is more rape in Western culture, is based on colloquial evidence combined with statistics, but I don't really know; it's my best guess based on the evidence. It is safe to say though that women generally feel safer in Muslim countries. Our streets are not safe for women at night, and our university campuses certainly are not safe. On the other hand, Muslim culture is male-dominated and repressive to women generally (in the same way that traditional Christian culture has been). Also, within traditional cultures male sexual predators will prey on those who are weak, isolated or vulnerable. They get away with it, and this does not show up in the statistics. But we also know that a lot of 'date rape' doesn't show up in our statistics. The question is worth further inquiry. This isn't a dinner party topic, so it's an area in which I can certainly inform myself. An interesting article: repub.eur.nl/pub/15669/May I suggest some of Steven Pinker's work. Regarding rape specifically his book "The Better Angels of Our Nature" may offer an interesting perspective for your consideration. I find his work, starting with "The Blank Slate" to be enlightening and provocative. P.S. I am a huge fan of Ayann Hirsi Ali. I was very disappointed this past year as progressives began to turn their collective backs on her insight (note events at Yale and Brandeis Universities(?)). I am also, but you may wish to read the re-appraisal I linked above, which speaks to the value of her critique of Muslim society but also provides some perspective. According to that writer her analysis leaves Muslim women with no path forward, other than abandoning the culture entirely. Most Muslim women do not wish to do that.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 11:33:50 GMT -5
Whathat, it will pass, but I have to tell you that I find your comment in the post above to be mean-spirited and that I am quite aggravated by the comment.
It is beyond my ken to know the purpose of such a gratuitous statement but perhaps it would be beneficial for you to take a moment and describe to me and any other interested reader the constructive value you perceived might be contributed by your comment. The way I am reading your comment is that it is personal and presumptive (and from my perspective inaccurate). Clearly you see it differently. To provide for a better context for interpretation of your future posts, I am truly interested in the benefit your perceive to be derived from your comment.
You are a very thoughtful, considerate and well informed individual on innumerable topics and concerns that face us all and your insight has long been appreciated on these threads. For sure there are substantive issues both tangible and spiritual where my views are significantly different from your own. To me the value of this board is the opportunity to express one's point of view and to ponder the perspectives of others. If my expressed opinion on any topic offends you, say so. Give an example and let's see if we can work toward an understanding of each other's respective position either on the thread or via PM.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 11:40:04 GMT -5
Thank you SharonArnold. Refreshing to catch a wiff of thoughtful rationality on these threads from time to time. I detect a note of sweeping dismissiveness here! I regret your impression.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 11:54:23 GMT -5
I am also, but you may wish to read the re-appraisal I linked above, which speaks to the value of her critique of Muslim society but also provides some perspective. According to that writer her analysis leaves Muslim women with no path forward, other than abandoning the culture entirely. Most Muslim women do not wish to do that. Yes, I am familiar with some of the critiques of her work. I am old school and see "paths forward" as being progressive rather than instantaneous revelations. An early step in moving beyond stasis in a social context must be consciousness raising. I believe that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has contributed much in this regard. Progress beyond consciousness raising often is multifaceted and often requires a host of different skills in order to influence behavior. I suspect we all can think of many examples of this process during our lifetime. Seldom has a single individual been effective at raising an issue and then carrying the ball all the way to constructive alterations of attitudes or behavior.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 27, 2015 12:03:05 GMT -5
The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture. There are, in fact, many problems with the culture. To say so does not automatically make it better or worse than any other culture. I favour a pragmatic approach to correcting problems rather than sweeping solutions. We seem to have gotten into a discussion of whether the problems found in Muslim culture are more the product of their own doing, or our doing. Who knows? Who cares? My concern is that Western hegemony over other cultures has often not been productive. Certainly the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a huge mistake, and it has not been good for us, and not been good for them, or the Western world in general. Now we've got a bigger problem in ISIS. ISIS would likely not have happened if we had stayed out of Iraq, or if the US had dealt with Iraqi Sunni's in more equitable fashion. I recommend this PBS documentary, also available on Netflix (in Canada). video.pbs.org/video/2365297690/Come on whathat. Please review all of my verbiage on this thread or on this board and select a comment, sentence and or phrase that supports your assertion: "The problem I detect in your thinking, and moreso in that of fixit's, is that you have trouble accepting that there is any problem with Western culture; or with the products or influences of Western culture." I reserve the right to correct, modify and or delete any entry that you present in support of your contention. I will state categorical that your impression is the sole consequence of my inability to express my opinions with adequate clarity such that all viewers (independent of perspective) can derive an accurate understanding of my "thinking". I am unaware of any difficulty with my thinking "in accepting that there is any problem with Western culture." Should my protestations to the contrary be inadequate to unequivocally convince you to the contrary, I will invest the necessary labor to crawl back through my verbiage to produce what I hope will be adequate evidence to the contrary for an objective observer. Please advise. Thanks I'm not sure going back through your verbiage will do anything to dissuade Whathat of his assessment. I was raised and lived for 40 years in the society where Whathat lives, and by the age of 16 I clearly understood how it is that Americans cannot even appreciate the fundamental differences between Canadian and American society. To Americans, it is not really the West and the East -- it is the US and the rest of the world. Their sense of their uniqueness as the "indispensable" model for the rest of the world, in all things, is what insolates them from the ability to see anything evil in their own society. I make this statement because I know that one of the principles of the American education system has been to promote this sense of uniqueness in children -- they are uniquely endowed people simply because they are Americans. Can a society whose intransigence on such simple matters as measuring their highways the way the rest of the world does ... empathize with people who have a broader sense of their normal-ness with the rest of the world? I say this at the risk of having it sound personal, but I don't know that you're such an unusual American that you recognize what I'm talking about. I'm 67 and I still arrive at a brick wall when trying to make this point with the vast majority of Americans. My experience with people from other countries is that they understand perfectly what I'm talking about. I think it might take about 150 years more for Americans to understand this. FWIW
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Post by matisse on Jan 27, 2015 12:09:10 GMT -5
I detect a note of sweeping dismissiveness here! I regret your impression. ...so you did not intend to imply that most other posts (posters) on this and other threads of TMB exhibit thoughtless irrationality? (Or some other similarly negative permutation)
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 27, 2015 12:18:19 GMT -5
SharonArnold, this idea of “evolving consciousness in human kind” that you mention in your post is fascinating. Do you suppose it might be possible to push the envelope just a bit further and explore some of the “who, what, when, where and how’s” of the idea? My first thought was of Betty Williams and Mairead Corrigan and the Peace People in Northern Ireland during the early/mid 1970’s. Here were two women touched by a tragic event within a tragic time who took their accumulated life lessons/wisdom and made a difference, for awhile. A Nobel Prize was awarded, and secondary movements have been spawned (e.g. Nobel Women’s Initiative). But reading retrospectives 40 years later one can see that the wolves of negativity have circled and ripped the heart of passion for peace from the movements. If you consider this one, perhaps arcane and isolated example, how would you begin to weave the experience into the narrative of an evolving consciousness? If one takes the long view, perhaps considers the Northern Ireland experiences over a 200-300 year time-period and in the context of global peace, how does one fit this one small event into a meaningful context? Is it a pearl cast before swine? Is it a pebble in an emerging mosaic of enlightened consciousness? Or is it one of those memes that will contribute to an eventual tipping point that you mentioned in an earlier post? In answer to your last 3 questions, I would be inclined to say: Maybe. Yes. Yes. I am probably not the best person to have this conversation with. I do know other people who could argue it with passion - some, unfortunately, who no longer contribute here. I have stated before on this forum that rational thought is definitely (and, IMO, rightfully) a servant to my instincts and intuition. I am a believer. No apologies for that. Now, you are asking me for empirical evidence for evolving consciousness. I do believe the empirical evidence exists – you yourself have brought up an excellent case in point. Other examples (that could be argued about endlessly) fleetingly cross my mind. In any way that one might suppose the world is becoming a better place, one could argue that it is due to increased awareness, to evolving consciousness. It is not something that I am inclined to argue in this forum on a rational level – my heart isn't in it. However, to give you an idea for the basis of my belief, I will say the following: I believe that my own life is a microcosm of the macrocosm. And I do declare myself an expert (in fact, “the” expert) on my own life. I do believe, for the most part, I live each day with increasing awareness. I can clearly see how my consciousness has evolved over the years. (Maybe even to the point where I see that “my consciousness” is probably largely an erroneous term.) I do see how I am more "conscious" than my parents and grand-parents. I do see how the generations coming after me are more conscious at their stage of life than I was at similar stages. “Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself” ~Rumi
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 27, 2015 12:28:09 GMT -5
Can a society whose intransigence on such simple matters as measuring their highways the way the rest of the world does ... empathize with people who have a broader sense of their normal-ness with the rest of the world? Ha! Now, I am not an American-bashing Canadian - far from it - but there is a point here. BTW, (this is probably deserving its own thread) has anyone here seen "American Sniper"?
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Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2015 12:30:05 GMT -5
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 12:31:47 GMT -5
A really quick brush up on the issue of Northern Ireland seems to indicate that protecting the Catholic minority in Ireland through pro-active measures, e.g. hiring more Catholic police, has quelled the violence. www.cfr.org/peace-conflict-and-human-rights/northern-ireland-peace-process/p31552According to this report, imbalances remain. More Catholic poor, more Catholic unemployed, but the imbalances do not seem great. Here is a telling paragraph from the above. Unemployment rates are lower but a sectarian imbalance remains among men. Nearly 12 percent of Catholic men were out of work compared to 7.4 percent of Protestant men, according to the 2011 census released by Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, the latest official tally that breaks down data by religion. But the gap is shrinking from the 30 percent Catholic unemployment rate registered in some parts of Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Since I know little about the subject as northern Ireland has not been in the news for some time, I wonder how Williams and Corrigan might have contributed to Catholic minority interests in northern Ireland. Reference to the Peace People in Ireland during the 1970s was intended as a specific encapsulated example of experiences that galvanized consciousness in a new direction for awhile. I made the reference to see if it might be useful to further explore SharonArnold's ideas regarding the constructive evolution of social structures and relationships. Regarding you question, it was my impression at the time and since (based on retrospectives that I have read) that the efforts of Williams and Corrigan transcended the interests of religious affiliation. As I recall events, they experienced pain, suffering and loss and said "Enough". In my sentimental and romantic ways I think along the lines of Robert Kennedy "There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" SharonArnold's idea appealed to me as an expression of this sentiment. Perhaps I have missed the point or expressed my endorsement of her idea and interest in developing that idea further ineffectively.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 27, 2015 12:46:06 GMT -5
I regret your impression. ...so you did not intend to imply that most other posts (posters) on this and other threads of TMB exhibit thoughtless irrationality? (Or some other similarly negative permutation) If you are unable to answer that question based what I have expressed over time, I will be unable to answer it in a manner that will be mutually satisfactory. Sorry.
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