|
Post by snow on Feb 2, 2015 17:55:24 GMT -5
I found it rather ironic that the Rev. in that video says that God tells us it's wrong to murder so he chastises humanity, ironically enough, by murdering. It's like saying to you child who hits another child, we don't hit and then gives him a slap! It's okay for the one in power to do it I guess. And because that mindset is hard to grasp, that's when we hear apologists saying that God's mind is beyond our's and not comprehendable. No kidding, who can comprehend evil? How do you defend a god that admits; that evil, it comes from me too.? You can tell the reverend was running out of ammunition when he brought up the "unforgivable sin". Yes, when they run out of defenses of that God, they usually resort to threats, which I for the life of me cannot figure how they would think that would help them make their point. Unless of course, their point is that their God is indeed evil?
|
|
|
Post by xna on Feb 2, 2015 18:12:31 GMT -5
Unless of course, their point is that their God is indeed evil? You might just be on to something. I never thought of it that way.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 2, 2015 18:18:33 GMT -5
Could you name a couple of things that were claimed to be real but were not testable? I believe there have been many more claims that were not proven than were proven - "Real things" like phlogiston, Blondlot's N-rays, cold fusion, or Todd Akin's theory about pregnancy and rape. I did not say “claimed to be real” . I just fearlessly crossed into that “real things” territory, without qualifiers. When I said "claimed to be real" I meant that someone has proposed they existed. For example, galaxies have always been real but for 10s of thousands of years no one claimed they existed. In practice a claim is made that something is real/exists when someone believes there is evidence to support their claim. You are correct although in these cases the theory was formulated and supported by recording and analyzing results and did not depend on direct observation. Or it may bring to light unknown real things! Sounds like you are seeking nirvana!
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Feb 2, 2015 18:43:10 GMT -5
I found it rather ironic that the Rev. in that video says that God tells us it's wrong to murder so he chastises humanity, ironically enough, by murdering. It's like saying to you child who hits another child, we don't hit and then gives him a slap! It's okay for the one in power to do it I guess. And because that mindset is hard to grasp, that's when we hear apologists saying that God's mind is beyond our's and not comprehendable. No kidding, who can comprehend evil? He makes the same mistake as Pope Francis (addressed by Bill Maher in "I Was Starting to Like This Pope, But He’s Dead To Me Now"):
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 2, 2015 21:11:34 GMT -5
I found it rather ironic that the Rev. in that video says that God tells us it's wrong to murder so he chastises humanity, ironically enough, by murdering. It's like saying to you child who hits another child, we don't hit and then gives him a slap! It's okay for the one in power to do it I guess. And because that mindset is hard to grasp, that's when we hear apologists saying that God's mind is beyond our's and not comprehendable. No kidding, who can comprehend evil? He makes the same mistake as Pope Francis (addressed by Bill Maher in "I Was Starting to Like This Pope, But He’s Dead To Me Now"): Yes, I saw that. In one sentence he said you should not provoke by making fun of someone's faith, but you shouldn't use violence as an answer. Then, in his next sentence he literally says that if his aide said something about his mother he would punch him in the face! Oh the irony...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 7:43:29 GMT -5
God is very fragile. His name has to be protected by people men women and children killing other men women and children because there is a picture drawn. He chooses weak and perverted vessels to carry his word - He doesn't seem to be able to discriminate between them. He chooses workers and priests who pray on weak wives and defenceless children and sends these monsters into Decent people's homes to defile them. He rules by threats and fear. Who would want to burn it is the worst possible pain. Who would want that for their children? The only thing I can think of it is like the master leaving his house in the care of the servants and went off to a far country and the servants were lazy and corrupt. He is not here now or He would help the children starving and abused and the women sad at the world they are bringing their little ones into. This world full of knowledge has lost its innocence. The children are seeing far too much far too soon. What sort of God would turn a deaf ear to a child crying out in a terrible situation. You can't tell me that being raped or mutilated is good for their soul. That is just sick! Men don't fight to protect their families and country. They go into other countries and fight their wars and kill strangers who have nothing to do with them. It is all about money. Religion seems to be like war. Forcing you to take sides and the root of it is about money and power. I haven't seen anything good and pure and wholesome about it especially in the cover ups and lies told by the so called "truth". The pope said God is asleep but I wonder if He has gone away. I wonder if He will return?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 8:37:52 GMT -5
What sort of God would turn a deaf ear to a child crying out in a terrible situation. You can't tell me that being raped or mutilated is good for their soul. That is just sick! I'll tell you the sort of God who would do that. The sort of God who exists only inside our heads. The sort of God who we allow to be created inside our minds and which we have been conditioned to believe is loving and caring and watches over us constantly but in reality does nothing. The sort of God who we end up making excuses for and inventing unidentified plans for merely to cover up his unfathomable negligence. The sort of God whose ways are higher than our ways and whose thoughts are higher than our thoughts but whose ways inevitably require the untold suffering of the innocent and whose thoughts appear like unto the thoughts of a man who doesn't think at all. Matt10
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 3, 2015 10:01:12 GMT -5
God is very fragile. His name has to be protected by people men women and children killing other men women and children because there is a picture drawn. God is fragile because the attributes given to god make it impossible for any so defined being to exist. One of the basic questions is why a loving and caring god would allow pain and suffering. The only answer is that humans cannot possibly understand the mind of god so it is best just to sit back and accept what happens. And this means that those who choose to accept what is happening often do nothing and say that whatever happens if god's will. The offenders are not chosen. They are criminals and it is up to people to take a stand to oppose the criminals and for parents to protect their children. I know of no cases where god has stepped in to help the abused. No, the people who perpetuate this belief use threats, promise of reward, and fear to control the believers.Exactly. No one would. So you follow the rules. Without thinking it through. What kind of a loving god would develop a system like that?Or people promoting such beliefs as a means of control. "You are born with original sin and if you do nothing you will burn in hell. However, if you follow our rules we will be able to remove that original sin and, if you continue to follow along, we can make an unprovable promise that you will end up in heaven." There you go.Do you think there is a possibility that there is such an interest in basic biological functions because the various religions have made them taboo? Would the internet be flooded with pornography if it was not taboo? Would people pay to see nude humans if various religions did not say it was wrong? Would strip clubs exist if nudity was not, for the most part, forbidden?What is you definition of god?The usual response is that you cannot kn ow the mind of god and god's thoughts are much higher than your thoughts. Does that make it better? But you need to wrap it in the flag and declare it is for god and country. Otherwise it is difficult to get people to go and fight.I think there is a positive side to most religions. People supporting people. For some members it is all about themselves. For others it is all about others. If you want to join you get to decide what sort of member you wish to be. As many people have stated here, the definition of god is anything but written in stone. Even within the bible, the so called book of god, there seem to be several different versions of that paranormal being. It is as if over time god evolved as well as the plants, animals, customs, beliefs, etc. Of course, this is difficult to accept if part of your definition of god is "unchanging".
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 3, 2015 12:34:17 GMT -5
God is very fragile. His name has to be protected by people men women and children killing other men women and children because there is a picture drawn. He chooses weak and perverted vessels to carry his word - He doesn't seem to be able to discriminate between them. He chooses workers and priests who pray on weak wives and defenceless children and sends these monsters into Decent people's homes to defile them. He rules by threats and fear. Who would want to burn it is the worst possible pain. Who would want that for their children? The only thing I can think of it is like the master leaving his house in the care of the servants and went off to a far country and the servants were lazy and corrupt. He is not here now or He would help the children starving and abused and the women sad at the world they are bringing their little ones into. This world full of knowledge has lost its innocence. The children are seeing far too much far too soon. What sort of God would turn a deaf ear to a child crying out in a terrible situation. You can't tell me that being raped or mutilated is good for their soul. That is just sick! Men don't fight to protect their families and country. They go into other countries and fight their wars and kill strangers who have nothing to do with them. It is all about money. Religion seems to be like war. Forcing you to take sides and the root of it is about money and power. I haven't seen anything good and pure and wholesome about it especially in the cover ups and lies told by the so called "truth". The pope said God is asleep but I wonder if He has gone away. I wonder if He will return? I believe we create the God we want to believe in. Says something about people's minds when they back a god that uses threats of eternal hellfire to get someone to worship him or love him doesn't it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 15:12:23 GMT -5
Quote - "I believe we create the God we want to believe in. Says something about people's minds when they back a god that uses threats of eternal hellfire to get someone to worship him or love him doesn't it."
When you say "we" do you mean religious people in general, or the bible? Certainly in the bible it warns how the whole world will be offended in the truth, and seek other gods. And certainly, some religions DO use death and hell as the power of fear, but that's not the Gospel, and that doesn't bring people to love God.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 3, 2015 16:33:58 GMT -5
Quote - "I believe we create the God we want to believe in. Says something about people's minds when they back a god that uses threats of eternal hellfire to get someone to worship him or love him doesn't it." When you say "we" do you mean religious people in general, or the bible? Certainly in the bible it warns how the whole world will be offended in the truth, and seek other gods. And certainly, some religions DO use death and hell as the power of fear, but that's not the Gospel, and that doesn't bring people to love God. By 'we' I mean humanity in general. What does bring people to love that kind of a God then?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 3, 2015 17:44:18 GMT -5
The pope said God is asleep but I wonder if He has gone away. I wonder if He will return? Ever wonder if he was ever there at all?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 3, 2015 17:48:02 GMT -5
And certainly, some religions DO use death and hell as the power of fear, but that's not the Gospel, ehum, haven't you read the gospels, Bert?
Or do you just not believe them?
|
|
|
Post by Johnny DeRaad on Feb 21, 2015 8:05:51 GMT -5
Why do you think I would believe in you claim of the paranormal being you worship without proof? In fact, for such an extraordinary claim you would have to provide extraordinary proof. And the burden of providing that proof falls on you, the believer. I read and post here because I was raised in a professing household and still have a large number of family members who are still members. I am not trying to promote my beliefs because I do not believe a person can simply decide what they actually believe. I couldn't decide, for example, to believe that Boyle's law was false without being able to examine facts and determine the error for myself. I cannot decide to believe in your god without some verifiable facts that support your claim that the paranormal being you claim exists actually does exist. ..very clearly I understand how someone doubts . ..but where you are wrong in your response and thinking is that you say the burden of proof is up to me .. .if the fluffy purple squirrel actually existed in your attic- he's actually probably brown..or if you live in Council Bluffs..black ... . you should get him outta there before he chews through a wire and starts a fire- and he was there for me and loved me and cared for me . .. when he heard me calling .. . ..his nature would be to respond ..but he's not so therefore he can't . . that is where you have it backwards .. . .I can't provide you a proof that would satisfy you. .but God can .. if your looking to man to provide you a proof this is why you are where you are . . .step outside of that great big brain of yours and ask Him to prove Himself ..I'll say it again ..He can and will . . ..and I was not being critical of you posting here with contradictory beliefs . .simply curious as to why when it seems kind of fruitless . .you must be a little bit like me and simply like the interaction with people and to discuss and debate a very interesting subject ..and enjoy whacking people with a stick now and again . .tho you seem to do it better than most and quite often
|
|
|
Post by Johnny DeRaad on Feb 21, 2015 8:14:18 GMT -5
I wonder what your purpose is in posting here? Matt10 Matt . .see above post . .minus the whacking part ..
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 26, 2015 2:35:27 GMT -5
It is said that what God does not allow, He hinders, and conversely, what He does not hinder, He allows. No one realy knows the mind of God because His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways, so it follows that His reasonings are beyond our comprehension as mortal beings. God is Almighty and unpredictable. It is the easy out. Simply state that no one can explain or understand god/the mind of god/the ways of god. There is someone who can explain, understand, the mind of God and show his ways and thats Jesus! If you look at his life and listen to his word then you will see and hear the heart of God. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: an my judgement is just, because I seek not mine own will, but thewill of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:30 Jesus showed God's heart completely, caring sharing and loving all, even those who persecuted and murdered him. " Father forgive them for they know not what they do!" you tell me, how many people would have compassion like this if they had been beaten, mocked and crucified? Jesus was able to to this because God walked with him and was in his heart. So he showed the heart of God completely. If you want to see what God is like, read the Gospels. You will also know his people, because they will carry Jesus in their hearts' and will be following him, and showing him and God through their lives and turning from the wickedness of this world. Rational. You asked me rather than God hiding wickedness so we can't see it, would I not rather see it so I can sort it out? Too right I would, especially in my own heart. When I said that I meant that God will help you keep wickedness away from your heart so you don't see it anymore. The stronger you are in God, the more it will disappear. The more you let him in, the more wickedness is cast out and the more you start looking at the good in people not picking our what's wrong with them. I believe that we have to look at number 1, and not Judge others. And a good way to start, is reading about Jesus' life and letting him into our hearts'. And letting the love of God live through us also!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 26, 2015 10:42:50 GMT -5
It is the easy out. Simply state that no one can explain or understand god/the mind of god/the ways of god. There is someone who can explain, understand, the mind of God and show his ways and thats Jesus! If you look at his life and listen to his word then you will see and hear the heart of God. People have been asking for centuries why amputated limbs have never been restored by god, even with earnest prayer. How would one go about getting an answer? On the other hand Jesus did say that those who were not with him were against him. And while teaching through the use of parable Jesus did make this comment about the treatment of those who he considered to be enemies, those who did not submit to him: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. That response seems to have been extensively reworked from the original which involved being able to see the suffering of the damned from paradise as described in the bible. From what you write it seems you firmly believe and accept these beliefs on faith which does not require any logical or material support. I am not questioning your beliefs. I am raising questions regarding what you are presenting to support your beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 26, 2015 12:44:05 GMT -5
The more you read the origins and beliefs of the thousands of religions world wide, the more you understand that it just has to be all man made. There are as many denominations and slightly different thought among the Muslims and there is the Christians. You can see so clearly the origins of the Hebrew religion, Christianity, Islam when you read the religious beliefs of the Babylonians and the other religions that also sprang from those ancient religions. Each newer religion just added a little of their beliefs to them and viola, a new truer religion is born. You just can't hold on to a God that is not man made knowing the origins of religions and religious beliefs, how they evolved into the various ones you see today. The belief that they had the only true revelation of what God was, what God wanted etc. is the one common thread that winds it's way through all of the religions and their beliefs world wide. It's a fascinating tapestry to watch form as you study and research older religions and see how the newer ones evolved to what we have today.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 26, 2015 13:22:16 GMT -5
There is someone who can explain, understand, the mind of God and show his ways and thats Jesus! If you look at his life and listen to his word then you will see and hear the heart of God. People have been asking for centuries why amputated limbs have never been restored by god, even with earnest prayer. How would one go about getting an answer? On the other hand Jesus did say that those who were not with him were against him. And while teaching through the use of parable Jesus did make this comment about the treatment of those who he considered to be enemies, those who did not submit to him: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. That response seems to have been extensively reworked from the original which involved being able to see the suffering of the damned from paradise as described in the bible. From what you write it seems you firmly believe and accept these beliefs on faith which does not require any logical or material support. I am not questioning your beliefs. I am raising questions regarding what you are presenting to support your beliefs. Hi Rational, If you read the last paragraph in my original post (below) it says:- "This can happen whilst we are here on earth, God can help blind us to wickedness. If we let him in. That's why Jesus says we have to become a little children to enter in. God wants an innocent heart within us and all that is corrupt gone. " I haven't reworked anything, what I have written to you in this post was to clarify what I meant by the statement above. Also as for Lazarus, it doesn't say anywhere that he saw the rich man. The rich man even describes everything explaining how hard it is for him in hell and needing water. But this is a parable. The water is the word of God. And because of his selfishness and hardness he won't hear him. There is a barrier between him and God. It's like going out in the car with a sat Nav, it guides the way. But when you go through a tunnel it loses the signal and goes off. Thats like us and God, if we've got the right heart and are in contact with him he can show us the way. But if we put a barrier between ourselves and God we won't hear anything. This is the gulf, and it's of our own doing by what we do in our lives! I know God's there I've had proof that I that I can't deny him. No one can prove to you he's there, only him. And if you don't ask with a sincere heart you'll never see him! You have to believe what you decide to believe in. You have free will
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 26, 2015 13:44:17 GMT -5
I wish people would quit saying things like you have to ask with a sincere heart or you'll never see him. That is so judgmental. How do you know that others who don't believe in God have not begged and pleaded with that being to 'see him or know him'? And nothing. I am sure there are quite a few atheists out there that have done just that. Then when nothing was revealed over time, they gave up and decided it just wasn't true. I know I have sincerely asked, and I know that I have received no proof. I guess I'm just not sincere enough, but you obviously are. What else can I determine from that statement.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 26, 2015 13:58:00 GMT -5
I wish people would quit saying things like you have to ask with a sincere heart or you'll never see him. That is so judgmental. How do you know that others who don't believe in God have not begged and pleaded with that being to 'see him or know him'? And nothing. I am sure there are quite a few atheists out there that have done just that. Then when nothing was revealed over time, they gave up and decided it just wasn't true. I know I have sincerely asked, and I know that I have received no proof. I guess I'm just not sincere enough, but you obviously are. What else can I determine from that statement. Snow, I just know he's there, I don't know why he's showed me because I'm nothing. But he has! And I don't know why he doesn't show others, I'm not God! But i hope and pray he does one day.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 26, 2015 16:48:15 GMT -5
Hi Rational, If you read the last paragraph in my original post (below) it says:- "This can happen whilst we are here on earth, God can help blind us to wickedness. If we let him in. That's why Jesus says we have to become a little children to enter in. God wants an innocent heart within us and all that is corrupt gone. " I haven't reworked anything, what I have written to you in this post was to clarify what I meant by the statement above. I see what you are trying to say. It was a bit confusing because the wickedness you were talking about in the preceding paragraph involved things like the holocaust. And it made little sense that god would hide that wickedness from people. And it was all rooted in speculating whether the pain and suffering of the damned was being hid from the righteous. I think there has been a mixing of what wickedness is being hid.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 26, 2015 17:04:33 GMT -5
Snow, I just know he's there, I don't know why he's showed me because I'm nothing. But he has! And I don't know why he doesn't show others, I'm not God! But i hope and pray he does one day. I agree with snow that it is judgmental to assume that you have sincerely looked into the existence of god but that those who reject the existence of god have failed to be sincere in their search. The difference may well be that different people require different levels of proof. Could you say exactly what you have been shown that supports your belief? Prayers answered? Limbs restored? Just wondering, if you care to share.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 26, 2015 17:49:02 GMT -5
Why does god allow pain and suffering? From a beleivers point of view. He didnt cause it. Unbelievers use this one as their first point of judgement/critisism on the almighty.. There is a massive amount of suffering in the world for many reasons.accident injury abuse war sickness etc. Some are born suffering. I dont know the answer. What I do know from scripture is that Christ came took on the sin and suffering of the world and sacrificed his spotless blood for humanity. So that humanity can be relieved of suffering and pain. My point is he did do what a loving father would do. He was prepared to allow jesus to come from heaven to live as a man. Experience life as a man in a sinful fallen environment. He did try to alliviate the problem of pain and suffering. Further more through in his teaching the disciples he showed them how to minister in the power of the holy spirit. So heal and deliver people from suffering sickness and bondage. The NT is full of it.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 26, 2015 18:04:23 GMT -5
I wish people would quit saying things like you have to ask with a sincere heart or you'll never see him. That is so judgmental. How do you know that others who don't believe in God have not begged and pleaded with that being to 'see him or know him'? And nothing. I am sure there are quite a few atheists out there that have done just that. Then when nothing was revealed over time, they gave up and decided it just wasn't true. I know I have sincerely asked, and I know that I have received no proof. I guess I'm just not sincere enough, but you obviously are. What else can I determine from that statement. Snow, I just know he's there, I don't know why he's showed me because I'm nothing. But he has! And I don't know why he doesn't show others, I'm not God! But i hope and pray he does one day. Snow I dont see it as judgemental when a believer is quoting scripture. I think it is judgemental if someone says you need Jesus. I havent seen anyone say that. Knowone knows anyone elses heart cry other than their own. Sincerity is human character trait not isolated only to believers. Maryhig I feel like you do that he is there, hears my prayer, most of the time answers. Its a relationship that has been built on trust over decades. The friendship we have with an invisible spirit which is and can be as real as a friendship with a human being. There are scriptures that say "it is the father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts".
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 26, 2015 18:11:34 GMT -5
Snow, I just know he's there, I don't know why he's showed me because I'm nothing. But he has! And I don't know why he doesn't show others, I'm not God! But i hope and pray he does one day. I agree with snow that it is judgmental to assume that you have sincerely looked into the existence of god but that those who reject the existence of god have failed to be sincere in their search. The difference may well be that different people require different levels of proof. Could you say exactly what you have been shown that supports your belief? Prayers answered? Limbs restored? Just wondering, if you care to share. Ratz Your comment is harsh saying she is being judgemental. Marys heart is soft. Cant you see that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 18:24:35 GMT -5
Truth be told, we are all judgmental in many ways, we base our judgments on our understanding and perceptions and personal experiences of the world and what goes on in the world.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 26, 2015 18:28:02 GMT -5
I would be a fool to write on here the things that have happened to me. It would be like a red rag to a bull! You wouldn't believe me because you don't know me! So there's no point! I'd just get each line dissected and ridiculed!
As I said I don't know why God has opened my eyes because i'm nothing, but I do know he also gives us blessings that we don't even think he's done for us! These are the things that go right in our lives and don't even consider he's put his hand to it. Like my daughter has just given birth to a baby after many years of trying. She didn't get a baby straight away. And I know there must have been a reason for this. But I know he's answered our years of praying.
And I haven't had an easy blissful life, I've had some things that have been very hard to bare sometimes over long periods of time, but I have had faith throughout, At some points in my life I thought I wasn't going to cope. But God has given me strength to get through.
If anyone is searching for God he will show them in his time. It took many years before anything happened but I have always had faith regardless.
|
|