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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 11:13:47 GMT -5
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 11:20:17 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 15:12:48 GMT -5
interesting i didn't know scientology believed in a supreme being...
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 18:32:33 GMT -5
interesting i didn't know scientology believed in a supreme being... I can't remember what bit you're referring to, but here's the church's stance on that... It's an atheist church at its core, that does believe in being possessed by disembodied spirits (dead people, not demons), which members work to exorcize themselves of. The members, rather than worship a god, work to gain supernatural powers themselves. New recruits are told they can be part of religion they want and still be Scientologists, however, that is deceptive, as when they reach a certain level of membership, they are told that all religion is false (even that Jesus didn't exist) and are given the story of the alien warlord Xenu. Is that what you meant? Xenu to them is an evil political/military guy on another planet, but not a god figure. The church will often imply or state that God is worshiped, though. The founder was a actually a practicing Satanist before starting the movement, and he took a lot of that stuff with him and re-branded it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 18:37:54 GMT -5
from the 1st link you provided:
What started in the 1950s as a fringe organization based on the theories of writer L. Ron Hubbard now claims more than "9,000 churches, missions, and affiliated groups" worldwide. The church's teachings offer potential members "a precise path leading to a complete and certain understanding of one's true spiritual nature and one's relationship to self, family, groups, Mankind, all life forms, the material universe, the spiritual universe, and the Supreme Being."
maybe this xenu is their supreme being?
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 19:04:43 GMT -5
Ah ok! Thanks--sorry I couldn't remember the mention!
Yeah, there is no supreme being in their doctrine. It's a ruse to make people and governments and courts to believe it is a church.
Their Xenu is just a powerful guy who practiced mass genocide.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2014 19:11:09 GMT -5
interesting i didn't know scientology believed in a supreme being... I can't remember what bit you're referring to, but here's the church's stance on that... It's an atheist church at its core, that does believe in being possessed by disembodied spirits (dead people, not demons), which members work to exorcize themselves of. The members, rather than worship a god, work to gain supernatural powers themselves. New recruits are told they can be part of religion they want and still be Scientologists, however, that is deceptive, as when they reach a certain level of membership, they are told that all religion is false (even that Jesus didn't exist) and are given the story of the alien warlord Xenu. Is that what you meant? Xenu to them is an evil political/military guy on another planet, but not a god figure. The church will often imply or state that God is worshiped, though. The founder was a actually a practicing Satanist before starting the movement, and he took a lot of that stuff with him and re-branded it. They must believe in a supreme being. Got this from the links you posted. Sounds like they don't think any who doesn't believe in a supreme being is worth much. " DOES SCIENTOLOGY HAVE A CONCEPT OF GOD? Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival. As L. Ron Hubbard wrote in Science of Survival:
“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”
Unlike religions with Judeo-Christian origins, the Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology auditing and training, one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being."L. Ron Hubbard is a one strange person! I read a series of his books at one point and Battlefield Earth and he has one strange mind if his books are anything to go by.
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 19:27:21 GMT -5
I can't remember what bit you're referring to, but here's the church's stance on that... It's an atheist church at its core, that does believe in being possessed by disembodied spirits (dead people, not demons), which members work to exorcize themselves of. The members, rather than worship a god, work to gain supernatural powers themselves. New recruits are told they can be part of religion they want and still be Scientologists, however, that is deceptive, as when they reach a certain level of membership, they are told that all religion is false (even that Jesus didn't exist) and are given the story of the alien warlord Xenu. Is that what you meant? Xenu to them is an evil political/military guy on another planet, but not a god figure. The church will often imply or state that God is worshiped, though. The founder was a actually a practicing Satanist before starting the movement, and he took a lot of that stuff with him and re-branded it. They must believe in a supreme being. Got this from the links you posted. Sounds like they don't think any who doesn't believe in a supreme being is worth much. " DOES SCIENTOLOGY HAVE A CONCEPT OF GOD? Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival. As L. Ron Hubbard wrote in Science of Survival:
“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”
Unlike religions with Judeo-Christian origins, the Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology auditing and training, one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being."L. Ron Hubbard is a one strange person! I read a series of his books at one point and Battlefield Earth and he has one strange mind if his books are anything to go by. Oh man. Hubbard contradicted himself so much! But when members reach the level of Operating Thetan 3, they have to reject any belief they have in a spiritual supreme being, or they cannot continue their progress onto the next level. Yes, he was a strange and fascinating character for sure! I never read any of his fiction--have heard that the heros were often red haired and modeled after himself...quite the ego. Did you see the movie of Battlefield Earth? I didn't but heard it was pretty bad.
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 19:29:00 GMT -5
Although the movie wasn't overseen by Hubbard, but the current leader.
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Post by snow on Nov 28, 2014 19:37:39 GMT -5
They must believe in a supreme being. Got this from the links you posted. Sounds like they don't think any who doesn't believe in a supreme being is worth much. " DOES SCIENTOLOGY HAVE A CONCEPT OF GOD? Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival. As L. Ron Hubbard wrote in Science of Survival:
“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”
Unlike religions with Judeo-Christian origins, the Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology auditing and training, one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being."L. Ron Hubbard is a one strange person! I read a series of his books at one point and Battlefield Earth and he has one strange mind if his books are anything to go by. Oh man. Hubbard contradicted himself so much! But when members reach the level of Operating Thetan 3, they have to reject any belief they have in a spiritual supreme being, or they cannot continue their progress onto the next level. Yes, he was a strange and fascinating character for sure! I never read any of his fiction--have heard that the heros were often red haired and modeled after himself...quite the ego. Did you see the movie of Battlefield Earth? I didn't but heard it was pretty bad. I think I started to watch the movie but it was so awful I never saw it all. John Travolta starred in it I think if I remember right. The book wasn't too bad but the movie was pretty awful. He is a very interesting character but it's the people who fell for his religion that baffle me because they are usually of a high IQ. My son filled out a questionnaire once when he was traveling in Australia and they are definitely looking for intelligent, successful people. They hounded him for a couple of years after that. It was a little scary actually.
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Post by xna on Nov 28, 2014 19:43:36 GMT -5
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 19:50:28 GMT -5
Haha! Yeah, it was Travolta. Poor guy--he had to act out the bad script and decisions of the leader, who micro-managed the project.
It is baffling until you understand how they rope you in with seemingly mild courses at first, like communication skills. Then there is the love bombing and the intimidation tactics and the breaking down of free will and it goes on and on and on. Brainwashing to the max. It's forbidden to discuss the doctrine with each other or to look at anything critics have to say. Total mind trap.
Yes, they have no use for anyone who can't put in the brainpower and time and money...so glad your son stayed away! Funny thing--they use the number of people who take that silly personality test to pad their stats of people they reach and help or whatever.
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 19:52:26 GMT -5
So awesome! 2 other documentaries should be coming out around next year too. Media and Hollywood is getting less afraid all the time but yeah--still gotta lawyer up!
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 20:05:53 GMT -5
One by an independent film-maker and one by the BBC.
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Post by xna on Nov 28, 2014 20:08:24 GMT -5
So awesome! 2 other documentaries should be coming out around next year too. Media and Hollywood is getting less afraid all the time but yeah--still gotta lawyer up! The have a new testimonial video out. There are all kinds of crazy to choose from. youtu.be/OIUlr9ii2dQ
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2014 20:22:38 GMT -5
So awesome! 2 other documentaries should be coming out around next year too. Media and Hollywood is getting less afraid all the time but yeah--still gotta lawyer up! The have a new testimonial video out. There are all kinds of crazy to choose from. youtu.be/OIUlr9ii2dQWow, that's a doozy! What they're talking about, the Golden Age of Tech II, is simply a re-packaging of the same courses. This happens every so many years, and members are forced to re-do all their training. They have to pay money again for the courses they already took once. The church says the material is made more clear, but it takes no responsibility for selling what it says was a little imperfect. No refunds, no apologies, no free re-training. Simply a ploy to wring more money out of its members.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2014 11:37:13 GMT -5
Haha! Yeah, it was Travolta. Poor guy--he had to act out the bad script and decisions of the leader, who micro-managed the project. It is baffling until you understand how they rope you in with seemingly mild courses at first, like communication skills. Then there is the love bombing and the intimidation tactics and the breaking down of free will and it goes on and on and on. Brainwashing to the max. It's forbidden to discuss the doctrine with each other or to look at anything critics have to say. Total mind trap. Yes, they have no use for anyone who can't put in the brainpower and time and money...so glad your son stayed away! Funny thing--they use the number of people who take that silly personality test to pad their stats of people they reach and help or whatever. The love bombing happen in most religions with newly acquired members. That's pretty much tradition and how they lure you in. Forbidding the doctrine to be discussed with each other is done in such a way that it's not forbidden as much as you are 'superior' in some way and by discussing with other's that are 'inferior' to your ability to understand would possibly be detrimental for their development and understanding and therefore their salvation. What they don't get is that they are all told the same thing and look at each other as 'not quite as advanced' as they are. Also, some things don't get revealed to the newbies until their indoctrination is apparent enough. Kind of like how the RCC didn't allow the bible to be read possibly? If you are selling something unbelievable it's important to appear normal for long enough to get them hooked before you throw out the curve balls that no sane person would even consider until after a level of brain washing has taken place. Yes, I am so glad my son listened to me and ignored them. For me, religions are incredibly scary institutions and to be avoided at all costs. Some of course top the ranks of those to be avoided. This one definitely is one of those.
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Post by withlove on Nov 29, 2014 15:59:31 GMT -5
The love bombing happen in most religions with newly acquired members. That's pretty much tradition and how they lure you in. Forbidding the doctrine to be discussed with each other is done in such a way that it's not forbidden as much as you are 'superior' in some way and by discussing with other's that are 'inferior' to your ability to understand would possibly be detrimental for their development and understanding and therefore their salvation. What they don't get is that they are all told the same thing and look at each other as 'not quite as advanced' as they are. Also, some things don't get revealed to the newbies until their indoctrination is apparent enough. Kind of like how the RCC didn't allow the bible to be read possibly? If you are selling something unbelievable it's important to appear normal for long enough to get them hooked before you throw out the curve balls that no sane person would even consider until after a level of brain washing has taken place. Yes, I am so glad my son listened to me and ignored them. For me, religions are incredibly scary institutions and to be avoided at all costs. Some of course top the ranks of those to be avoided. This one definitely is one of those.
Great points! It is scary. The product they're selling isn't something tangible you can change your mind about and throw in the trash very easily. It's a package of ideas and feelings which can be incredibly difficult to rid yourself of. People selling God to people is super tricky. I still identify as a Christian, but I feel it's supposed to be the holy spirit pointing a person which direction to go...people get in the way of that, either by saying things they shouldn't or purposefully not saying things they should. It isn't uncommon for workers to say they'll let the spirit reveal certain things rather tell newcomers themselves. Those "things" are the crazy bits, like you said. Can you imagine if people had the guts to give an honest and accurate summary of their church when someone asked? I don't even know how that would go. We certainly weren't encouraged to do that. Where do you go to church? What do you believe? Do you think you're the only right church? Three questions I don't think I've ever heard a truly honest answer to among the friends and workers. Honest in the way that isn't flattering half-truths.
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Post by snow on Nov 29, 2014 19:10:57 GMT -5
Great points! It is scary. The product they're selling isn't something tangible you can change your mind about and throw in the trash very easily. It's a package of ideas and feelings which can be incredibly difficult to rid yourself of. People selling God to people is super tricky. I still identify as a Christian, but I feel it's supposed to be the holy spirit pointing a person which direction to go...people get in the way of that, either by saying things they shouldn't or purposefully not saying things they should. It isn't uncommon for workers to say they'll let the spirit reveal certain things rather tell newcomers themselves. Those "things" are the crazy bits, like you said. Can you imagine if people had the guts to give an honest and accurate summary of their church when someone asked? I don't even know how that would go. We certainly weren't encouraged to do that. Where do you go to church? What do you believe? Do you think you're the only right church? Three questions I don't think I've ever heard a truly honest answer to among the friends and workers. Honest in the way that isn't flattering half-truths. I agree it doesn't happen often that you get honest answers to those questions. However, there are some on here that do answer them pretty honestly knowing they are probably not making any friends doing so. I admire them for their willingness to be honest about what they believe even if I don't understand how they could believe it. I think there is so much deception in religion and that no one knows what the true origins of their religion are anymore because it's been so distorted and basically rewritten. I find it sad when people are so sure that the bible is the literal infallible word of God and feel that deception is so unfair. But the really sad part is the belief that if you don't believe in all the things as literally true, you will end up in hell. So it is such a situation of cognitive dissonance because on the one hand you know it all is something that couldn't have happened naturally, but has to be believed as supernatural and only a God can make it happen.
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