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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 3:53:02 GMT -5
Paul faced strong opposition from people who later formed their own churches. To some (who heard about Jesus the miracle worker and lover of children) found him a disappointment, as people do today. Paul wasn't charismatic, and they expected charisma. Paul rabbited on about rules and regulations, and this wasn't how they saw Jesus. And when Paul claimed he was an "apostle" some saw it as a bridge too far - he wasn't an apostle in the strict sense of the word. So some would have felt they couldn't accept Paul, but they would have accepted the "real apostles" or Jesus himself, if he appeared. I sometimes wonder if this wasn't the "thorn" in Paul's side.
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Post by Greg on Nov 23, 2014 5:25:06 GMT -5
...Paul rabbited on about rules and regulations, and this wasn't how they saw Jesus... Yes, they might have been on to something.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 5:27:00 GMT -5
Yes, I call it the "Red Letter" Jesus Half of what Jesus said is quite offensive to most people. As a result people tend to focus upon the other half, and His life.
Paul didn't have a famous miracle life to live. He is the man of letters. And yet, half of what Paul wrote offends most people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 8:40:35 GMT -5
I Think that Paul was very intelligent and well educated, but he was also forth right and he called a spade a spade; no hedging around the bushes with him; some folks disliked his approach to certain matters. and do you think that he was guided by God? Yes, I believe that he was inspired by the Holy spirit in most things after his conversion, but he wasn't always that way, and sometimes "old habits die hard" even With some folks who have been professing for years; that is why some workers/overseers are considered to be impatient, harsh and forceful while others are considered to be nice, patient, compassionate, sympathetic and loving.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 8:46:59 GMT -5
The early Workers..ahem.....Apostles/Disciples, had to be married with much the same consistency as having Fathers, Mothers, Sisters, Brothers...etc....etc., otherwise scripture would be false.
Matt. 19:29 "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 12:19:43 GMT -5
The early Workers..ahem.....Apostles/Disciples, had to be married with much the same consistency as having Fathers, Mothers, Sisters, Brothers...etc....etc., otherwise scripture would be false. Matt. 19:29 "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."[/i According to the gospels Peter, and some of the apostles were married, most of the apostles were singles. Some left their wives and children to go forth in the ministry. Peter Waldo in 1170 left his wife and daughter and went forth in the ministry.
While in the work Bill Carroll and his wife left their daughter for one of the friends to raise her. We had one married couple raised their children in the work (Dave and Emily Christies in Hawaii), the 2x2 have divorced workers in the work.Nathan, where do you get the idea that "most" of the Apostles were single? Are you reading something into scripture? ps Divorced workers are not married!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 12:45:02 GMT -5
Nathan, where do you get the idea that "most" of the Apostles were single? Are you reading something into scripture? ps Divorced workers are not married! At one time in the past the divorced workes were married to someone.... Jesus, the 11 apostles, Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Titus, Luke, John Mark, Sosthenes, Apollo were NOT married. If you don't believe then show me in scriptures or history the names of married apostles, their wives names, and their children names.With most of these names you are using "silence" to support your argument. It cuts both ways Nathan. On the balance of probabilities most if not all of Jesus's chosen disciples were married. They, like Jesus, were all over 30 years of age before they were sent out by Jesus (a legal requirement) and in that culture, most men were married long before that age. The few references we have regarding their marital state, leans towards them, or most of them being married. Also, with the early church, men were sometimes sent out on Gospel missions (leaving wife, children, relatives, property, land etc) on a temporary basis, returning to these things at the end of their mission.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 13:22:08 GMT -5
The Adoption of Sons
by David Weber
I feel the need to express a few things today; some things that are foundational to our understanding of "sonship," as many Christians are not very familiar with the true meaning of "sonship" or "the adoption of sons" or "the placement of sons" as those things are revealed to us in scripture.
It is no wonder that a dark veil has been pulled over the understanding of most Christians regarding "sonship," for the revelation of sonship is something that the devil ferociously withstands, and that because the Christian progression from spiritual children to spiritual sons means the enemy's very undoing.
"For the anxious longing of the creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons..." (Romans 8:19-23)
Beloved, even a brief glimpse into this passage of scripture from Romans should reveal to us that the "adoption of sons" or the unveiling of the Son in fullness in a company of sons is something which yet lies ahead for the body of Christ. We, who have received a measure of the Spirit now wait ...GROANINGLY WAIT! for our adoption as sons. We were foreordained unto adoption as sons, but the actual adoption is something for which we are now waiting. Thus, this "adoption" is not simply the matter of our coming into the family of God through regeneration of our spirit, but rather, it is something which is the end result of God's fiery dealings with us unto the full and complete surrender of our souls!
There have been vast amounts of erroneous teaching about "adoption" and "sonship" in the body of Christ, and that mostly because men have looked at biblical adoption through the eyes of modern western culture. But beloved, the traditional Hebrew view of "the adoption of a son" has absolutely nothing to do with the placement of an orphan into a foster home, rather, it has to do with a young man coming into a place of maturity whereby the full authority and resources of his father are bestowed upon him.
With this in mind, can you not see why the devil would do everything in his power to blind the children of God to the message of their full inheritance and adoption as sons? When MATURE sons of God are made manifest beloved (the man-child of Revelation 12), the enemy will lose his place, he will lose his kingdom, he will lose his title, he will even lose his evil grip on creation! He loses everything!
"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ has come, for the accuser of the brethren has been thrown down..." (Revelation 12:10)
Dear ones, the catching up of the manchild of Revelation 12 to the throne of God is none other than the sons of God coming into their place of full authority and power in the kingdom; that which the devil has feared the most, and that for which all of creation has been groaning like a woman in the travail of childbirth. The devil has fought hard to keep the light of the inheritance in Christ from Christian believers ... but beloved ... it is now time for us to rise and shine for our light has come! It is time for us to know by the spirit of wisdom and revelation the hope of our calling; which is the full riches and power and authority of our Father bestowed upon us, and that for the purpose of setting all of His creation free from its slavery to corruption and death so that even it (creation itself) might come into the freedom of the glory of the children of God come into their inheritance as sons! Oh glory!
With these things in mind and heart, let me share with you something about the true scriptural meaning of "adoption" and "sonship" as it applies to the above quoted verse from Romans 8 (our inheritance), and as it can be seen in the life and development of the average Hebrew boy ... and even Jesus Himself!
The original Greek word translated as "revealing" in Romans 8:19 is the word "apokalupsis," which simply means "disclosure." In other places throughout the New Testament, it is also translated as "appearing," "coming," "enlighten," and "revelation." The definition assigned to its root word is, "to take off the cover." Therefore, when we come across this word "apokalupsis" in Scripture, it has to do with the exposing of something that has been hidden from view, or bringing into light that which has been kept in obscurity. In this passage of scripture it should be pretty clear that what has been hidden and held in obscurity is ... the sons of God! Certainly even the understanding of sonship has been hidden from many Christians up until now, but thank God, we are coming into a day of a great unveiling of God's inheritance in the saints.
As the above passage of scripture about the sons of God appears to us in English, "sons" could be taken in several different ways, but in the original language, Paul was very careful in his choice of words. For the word "sons" Paul very carefully chose the word "huios" rather than the word "teknion" (which means infant) or "teknon" (which speaks of a child or a youth) because he was not referring to mere children. "Huios" specifically speaks of matured, fully developed sons, or those who have come of age into full maturity. Of the three words, "huios" is the only word that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to use when he spoke of those to be manifested as sons of God in Romans 8, and it is also the only word that the Holy Spirit inspired the beloved John to use when he referred to the manchild in Revelation chapter 12. Is that possibly because those are one and the same? I think so.
With this understanding somewhat established, we should be able to see that the manifestation of the sons of God is not merely the unveiling or revelation of God's children, since that manifestation has been occurring for the past two thousand years, but it is a revelation of those children coming into their full maturity in Christ, when they will come of full age (spiritually speaking) and be presented by the Father as full grown "sons" (huios) of the Kingdom.
According to John's Gospel, those who receive the Christ are given the power to become the children (teknon) of God, and that through the regeneration of their spirit. But what Paul then reveals in Romans is that from these children will come forth "mature sons;" the manifestation of which all of creation has been anxiously awaiting. Take a look again at verse 21 from Romans, but this time from the J.B.Phillips translation;
"And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life will be rescued from the tyranny of change and decay, and have its share in that magnificent liberty WHICH CAN ONLY BELONG TO THE CHILDREN OF GOD!"
Beloved, this means that the "sons of God" can only come forth from the "children of God," or in other words, the "manchild" can only come forth from the "woman" (she who is made up of "sun clad" believers, but is yet to come to full maturity in Christ for she is still in a sense, a spiritual "child," not having put the self-life fully to death). The manifestation of the sons of God will not be the disclosure of God's offspring in the infant stage (teknion) or the adolescent stage (teknon)... No, it shall be a manifestation of those who have come to the full stature of Christ; nothing less than Christ's own perfection (that's maturity)! Oh, may the spirit of wisdom and revelation open the eyes of your understanding to this wonderful truth!
This article is getting a little bit long, and I want to try to wrap it up, but I would like to take a quick look at the life of Jesus as it is revealed to us in the Gospels because in His life we can see a pattern which reveals the three stages of spiritual growth in a believer ... from infancy (teknion) ... to puberty (teknon) ... to maturity (huios). This is revealed in Jesus' manger birth and circumcision on the eighth day, to His appearing in the temple at age 12, to His adoption ceremony and His Father's proclamation of His Sonship at the Jordan at age 30 ("30" is the biblical number for "maturity").
The pattern shown to us in the life of Jesus, is also revealed to us in the life of the average Israelite male (which I mentioned earlier). Jesus then spiritually amplifies for us that pattern with His life.
In the life of the average Hebrew boy there were three major events which drew broad public attention to him. The first of these events was his "Circumcision," which occurred when he was an infant, at eight days old. This was the moment that he was marked as a "covenant man" in Israel, and was celebrated throughout the community.
The second major event was his "Bar-Mitzvah," which took place as he was about to enter into puberty. The word Bar-Mitzvah actually means "a son accountable," and this signified the time, not only when he was held accountable for keeping the Commandments of God, but also when he was to become an apprentice under his father in the family business. This, too, was celebrated as a very special event in the life of the child, just as it is today.
The third event was what was known as the "Huiothesia," or the (young man's) "adoption ceremony." The word "Huiothesia" means "Son Placement," and indicates the time when a male child reached what was considered to be the age of maturity (somewhere around 30). At this time, the father of the young man would place his hand on the head of his son and openly proclaim, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased! I bestow upon him now all of my riches and power and authority (through power of attorney) so that he might act on my behalf in all of my affairs."
Beloved friends, can you see that the three experiences that are described in the life of an Israelite male, and the three stages shown to us in the life of Jesus, are to be spiritually discerned so that we may understand God's enduring process for our own spiritual growth into sons? Can you now understand why Jesus would say to Mary and Joseph at age 12, "Know ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Can you see that He was proclaiming His just then entered apprenticeship under the Father? At that point Jesus was just entering an 18 year stage of "learning the family business" so to speak. His Sonship ceremony at the Jordan which would "fulfill all righteousness" and launch His glorious Sonship ministry would not be performed until He reached the full stage of "maturity." The Holy Spirit's descent like a dove upon Jesus was in essence the hand of the Father coming upon the Son to proclaim His Sonship ministry! The Father said, "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I AM well pleased!" Many of us have not understood the full ramifications of those words, or that ceremony, until now. But there is now a great light of revelation being shed upon such things in this day.
Why?
Because the time for our adoption as "sons" is drawing nigh beloved. Our Father is preparing to bestow the riches and the power and the glory of His Kingdom upon a people, and that without measure! But He won't give that power to spiritual infants! No, He won't. Nor will He give it to spiritual children... But the Father is waiting (as is all of creation) to bring forth sons. This is the precious fruit of the earth for which the Husbandman has been patiently waiting.
Oh yeah ... one last thing.
Growth from spiritual childhood to that of a son comes only one way beloved... lots and lots of chastening, suffering, trials, and tribulation. Hardly the escape "rapture" folks ... sorry.
May the Lord give us the grace to endure the trials and the chastening that we must suffer unto sonship, and that, so that He may have that company of sons upon whom He can place the great authority and power that is needed to rule and reign with Him in the Kingdom of God.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 17:26:12 GMT -5
by saying he wasn't a worker when he plainly showed he was, duh Virgo, Paul was a chosen Apostle of Jesus he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship" ! Are you really saying that you believe workers are modern day apostles ? Who else preform miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? Virgo you still have not answered this. Who else preformed miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 17:57:56 GMT -5
Virgo you still have not answered this. Who else preformed miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? The disciples/followers of Jesus such as Stephen in Acts 7, Annaias who healed Saul/Paul, Philip the deacon/ evangelist...Thanks Nathan, but I asked VIRGO, seeing as he made the statement I would like his view on it Those you have listed above did they see Jesus ?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 23, 2014 19:13:43 GMT -5
You sure Peter was in the work? I thought he was a disciple of Jesus, sent to preach the gospel of Jesus. Yes, he was a Worker. At least, that is what Paul called the profession. He didn't say he was a:
sub Deacon Deacon Diocesan Ordinary Auxiliary Bishop Coadjutor Bishop Diocesan Administrator Assistant Priest Chaplain of His Holiness Honorary Prelate Metropolitan Bishop Monsignor Chancellor Vicar General Presbyteral Councilor Diocesan Synodian Pastoral Councilor College Consultator Diocesan Administrator Diocesan Bishop Bishop Apostolic Administrator Apostolic Prefect Territorial Abbot Territorial Prelate Primate Cardinal Bishop Cardinal Pope
... and that's just the Catholic Church hierarchy.
Yes. Some Catholic priests do work - in professional/degree areas of responsibility. Those in religious orders work too - in many capacities - in their community - gardening, cooking, carpentry, etc, etc ... There are high school teachers, college instructors, lawyers, parish and diocesan administrators, monastery abbots (some as you have listed) ... in addition to their priestly liturgical and sacramental faculties and responsibilities. Making good use of their God-given talents and their education. If it wasn't shameful for St Paul to work at tent making, why the ' unhappy face' for Catholic clergy who also work? ... nor did we eat food received free from anyone On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you.
Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us. 2 Thessalonians 3:8-9
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 19:35:40 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan, but I asked VIRGO, seeing as he made the statement I would like his view on it Those you have listed above did they see Jesus ? If the apostles and disciples of Jesus healed people and perform miracles in those days, so why can't you heal people today? Aren't you a disciple of Jesus. May, I ask what is your excuse?Nathan, give me the name of one worker who has healed someone ? Have you healed someone Nathan ? You didn't answer my question ! Neither has Virgo
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 20:03:55 GMT -5
Nope, I didn't heal anyone when I was in the work. I haven't heard any worker who has healed anyone either. I know Edward Cooney tried to heal someone because he believed he could heal like the 12 apostles and he couldn't heal and eventually excommunicated in 1928.At a convention in Launceston, Tasmania, in 1922, Cooney publicly preached the superiority of the poverty principle which he wanted to see reinstated so that preachers should have become both equally poor and equal in rank, with no superiors to restrict them. He impressed convention-goers by his personal dedication to the principle of poverty, drew attention to his clothing and shouted, "Dead man's trousers!" In Australia some of the preachers who listened to Cooney well understood what it meant to be poor, and they agreed with him that preachers should neither dress nor live beyond the standard of labourers, fishermen or gardeners. Adam Hutchison, who was then the Tasmanian overseer, supported Cooney, and John Hardie in New South Wales cancelled a country convention in order to arrange a large combined convention at Guildford in Sydney so that many members had the opportunity to hear Edward Cooney and Willie Gill from England. Excited and elated at this convention Edward Cooney exclaimed during an address, "They call you Cooneyites! Then glory to the name of Cooney, glory to the Cooney family!"(11i) He was popular with the convention-goers but some of his fellow workers grew anxious because of his opposition to the developments that had taken place within the movement, and they realized he used the opportunity to travel and to preach to instigate a campaign for reform. He likened his stand to that of Martin Luther, in that he hoped to win greater freedom for individual members who had come under the control of a strong hierarchy which limited preachers' movement, members' freedom of speech and which restricted salvation to those who professed through the "true way" preachers-these things he classed as "Popish bondage". He antagonized preachers who enjoyed improved status, comfortable travel, and who wore good quality clothing, for he did not really consider that they were "true way" preachers, and he claimed superiority for the original principle of the poor preacher as he exhibited it. In an attempt to excel and strengthen his claims to be obeying Matthew 10 he arranged what he called a test case to fulfill the"healings'' part of Matthew 10 and Luke 9. He advised a sick young woman to desire a cure, and to read, meditate and pray in preparation for healing. Taking with him two junior male workers he anointed her with olive oil and uttered words. But the sick girl only remained ailing and worried. Edward Cooney gave it up and left her to think that perhaps she failed or came short in some way in faith.(12i)Workers in New Zealand who already were antagonized by Cooney's teaching found the last action intolerable. They banned from household church meetings any member "who declared him as a servant of God", so those who were loyal to him retaliated by starting meetings of their own; "and it is the safest place for them", wrote a worker.(13i) The news of Cooney's exclusion reached Jack Carroll before Cooney arrived in the western states of America on his return journey from New Zealand. Carroll, who claimed the oversight of the movement from the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific coast had been kept informed of Cooney's activities while in Australia and New Zealand. He decided that Cooney's ideas were not to be heard by members of his territory and advised them not to attend the mission which Cooney commenced in Seattle. The rift deepened and a complete ban was placed upon Cooney in a successful attempt to deny him support in the U.S.A. and Canada. He said he would have starved if he had not left preaching and found employment in the U.S.A. in his former trade, the clothing business.(14i) So Nathan, what did you mean by the original quote then ? "If the apostles and disciples of Jesus healed people and perform miracles in those days, so why can't you heal people today? Aren't you a disciple of Jesus. May, I ask what is your excuse?"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 23:01:19 GMT -5
by saying he wasn't a worker when he plainly showed he was, duh Virgo, Paul was a chosen Apostle of Jesus he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship" ! Are you really saying that you believe workers are modern day apostles ? Who else preform miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? there were others beside apostles who performed miracles even just plain workers and i ask you how would you know that he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship"? one does not have to do miracles to be an apostle
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 23:04:05 GMT -5
According to the gospels Peter, and some of the apostles were married, most of the apostles were singles. Some left their wives and children to go forth in the ministry. Peter Waldo in 1170 left his wife and daughter and went forth in the ministry.
While in the work Bill Carroll and his wife left their daughter for one of the friends to raise her. We had one married couple raised their children in the work (Dave and Emily Christies in Hawaii), the 2x2 have divorced workers in the work. Nathan, where do you get the idea that "most" of the Apostles were single? Are you reading something into scripture? ps Divorced workers are not married! were do you get the idea that they all were married?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 23:07:25 GMT -5
Virgo, Paul was a chosen Apostle of Jesus he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship" ! Are you really saying that you believe workers are modern day apostles ? Who else preform miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? Virgo you still have not answered this. Who else preformed miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? just because i didn't answer when you wanted you decide i wasn't going to answer patience is a vurtue
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 23:08:52 GMT -5
Virgo you still have not answered this. Who else preformed miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? The disciples/followers of Jesus such as Stephen in Acts 7, Annaias who healed Saul/Paul, Philip the deacon/ evangelist...thank you Nathan, you would think that these people would know these things or look them up for themselves
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 23:11:32 GMT -5
The disciples/followers of Jesus such as Stephen in Acts 7, Annaias who healed Saul/Paul, Philip the deacon/ evangelist... Thanks Nathan, but I asked VIRGO, seeing as he made the statement I would like his view on it Those you have listed above did they see Jesus ? philip may have been the only one to see Jesus
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 23:15:29 GMT -5
If the apostles and disciples of Jesus healed people and perform miracles in those days, so why can't you heal people today? Aren't you a disciple of Jesus. May, I ask what is your excuse? Nathan, give me the name of one worker who has healed someone ? Have you healed someone Nathan ? You didn't answer my question ! Neither has Virgo my word you just take the cake, you demand that we answer your questions and then as if you were blind didn't answer nathan's he asked, aren't you a disciple of Jesus. may i ask what is your excuse?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2014 1:06:34 GMT -5
Nathan, give me the name of one worker who has healed someone ? Have you healed someone Nathan ? You didn't answer my question ! Neither has Virgo my word you just take the cake, you demand that we answer your questions and then as if you were blind didn't answer nathan's he asked, aren't you a disciple of Jesus. may i ask what is your excuse?
If you bother to re-read Virgo I asked Nathan what he meant by that statement !
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2014 1:09:36 GMT -5
Virgo, Paul was a chosen Apostle of Jesus he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship" ! Are you really saying that you believe workers are modern day apostles ? Who else preform miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? there were others beside apostles who performed miracles even just plain workers and i ask you how would you know that he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship"? one does not have to do miracles to be an apostle So what is the difference between a "plain worker" & an Apostle Virgo ? Where is the record to prove he was a worker in the same sense as "the workers" today ? Also if that was the case why can't workers today do miracles ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2014 1:14:46 GMT -5
"If the apostles and disciples of Jesus healed people and perform miracles in those days, so why can't you heal people today? Aren't you a disciple of Jesus. May, I ask what is your excuse?" Miracles, healing, raised the dead were given to the Jews apostles 12 and 70 because it was to fulfill the promised God had foretold in the OT that when the Messiah came He would perform miracles as signs so they would KNOW He has come. (Acts 3:22-26) Performing Miracles, healing, raised the dead were NOT promised or given to the Gentiles, it wasn't necessary! or a requirement. Salvation/Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God and that is Believing in Jesus! It's He who SAVES us. Nathan can you please clarify your above statement "If the apostles and disciples of Jesus healed people and perform miracles in those days, so why can't you heal people today? Aren't you a disciple of Jesus. May, I ask what is your excuse?" We cannot heal people Nathan ! Of course it is Christ that saves ! But that is not what we are talking ! If the workers are modern day apostles WHY can't they preform miracles ? It was not promised to the Gentiles, therefore the workers are NOT like the Apostles !
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2014 1:15:43 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan, but I asked VIRGO, seeing as he made the statement I would like his view on it Those you have listed above did they see Jesus ? philip may have been the only one to see Jesus Didn't Paul see Jesus ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2014 1:25:32 GMT -5
NO APOSTLES TODAY Unfortunately, several groups that claim affiliation with the Christian religion allege to have apostles among them, including Catholicism, Mormonism, and some pentecostal groups. This claim is unbiblical. No person living today can meet the qualifications given in Scripture for being an apostle. No one living today has been an eyewitness of Christ’s resurrection. Christ has selected no one living today for the apostolic role. No one living today possesses the miraculous capabilities of an apostle. We should not be surprised that people would falsely claim to be apostles. Jesus warned that false prophets would come in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they would be ravening wolves (Matthew 7:15). Paul described some of his opponents in these words: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). Further warning was issued to the Galatian churches: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8). Anyone claiming to be an apostle today who teaches anything in addition to the New Testament is clearly not an apostle of Christ! Peter added his voice on the same subject: “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction” (2 Peter 2:1). No wonder John admonished: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1; cf. Matthew 24:11,24). In the Revelation, the church at Ephesus was commended because they “tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars” (Revelation 2:2). Catholicism maintains that Peter was the supreme bishop, even over the other apostles, and that every pope since Peter is an apostolic successor to Peter. The pope is selected after literally hours and days of deliberation by cardinals in the Vatican. The only apostle in the Bible that was not handpicked by Christ in person was Matthias. Yet he was not selected by mere men deliberating and debating his potential. He was selected by the casting of lots—which was simply another way for Jesus to do the selecting (Acts 1:26; cf. Proverbs 16:33). It is incredible to think that any human beings living today would presume to appoint apostles. In pinpointing the credentials of an apostle, Luke (Acts 1) made it abundantly evident that to qualify as an apostle a person would have to have seen the Lord and been an eyewitness of His resurrection. That is why Paul was careful to state: “Am I not an apostle? …Have I not seen the Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1, emp. added). In recounting his conversion, he quoted Ananias as having said, “The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard” (Acts 22:14-15, emp. added). What alleged modern-day apostle could make such a claim? The New Testament also makes clear the fact that an essential characteristic of an apostle was that he had been selected by Deity. When Jesus was on Earth, He handpicked the first twelve apostles. After His departure from Earth, the disciples cast lots to select a successor to Judas. Their method allowed no input from mere humans—except in the recognition that two men possessed all the qualifications necessary to be an apostle. Casting lots allowed God to do the selecting. Divine control in the selection process by casting lots was common in Old Testament history (see Leviticus 16:8; Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; Joshua 14:2; 18:6,10; 19:51; cf. Acts 13:19; 1 Samuel 14:42; Nehemiah 10:34; Psalm 16:5). Solomon claimed: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33). Indeed, Peter’s prayer on the occasion shows that the decision already had been made by the Lord before the actual casting of lots: “…show which of these two You have chosen” (Acts 1:24, emp. added). The summary statement regarding Matthias—“he was numbered with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1:26; cf. Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:33)—gives way to a return to the expression “the twelve” (Acts 6:2; cf. Acts 2:14). The text states: “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship” (Acts 1:24-25). Paul also was handpicked by Jesus—to be a “chosen vessel” (Acts 9:15). No human being on Earth today can claim he has been personally singled out and chosen by Jesus to be an apostle. A third proof that no apostles exist on Earth today is the fact that New Testament apostles were empowered by God—not only to perform miracles—but also to convey miraculous power to other people who then could work miracles themselves. This characteristic is demonstrated in detailed fashion in Acts: “Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money” (Acts 8:18). The issue of modern-day apostles may be settled very quickly! To authenticate their claim to be apostles, they must be able both to perform miracles as well as confer miraculous power to others. The apostles of Jesus in the New Testament demonstrated their apostolic status without hesitation. Anyone today who claims to be an apostle should be willing to do the same. No such ability exists today www.apologeticspress.org
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 4:13:46 GMT -5
Nathan, where do you get the idea that "most" of the Apostles were single? Are you reading something into scripture? ps Divorced workers are not married! were do you get the idea that they all were married? Where did I say they were all married?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 4:25:05 GMT -5
Virgo, Paul was a chosen Apostle of Jesus he was not a worker in the sense of workers that belong to the "Fellowship" ! Are you really saying that you believe workers are modern day apostles ? Who else preform miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? Virgo you still have not answered this. Who else preformed miracles other than Jesus & his Apostles ? Let me helps out Virgo on this one, Dr. Christian Barnard the heart surgeon of South Africa who performed the first heart transplant operation. Wasn't that a miracle? Sorry, I am being flippant here.
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Post by faune on Nov 24, 2014 13:53:42 GMT -5
St. Anne ~ I believe Timothy was a disciple of Paul, who lived within the first century and estimated to have died around 67 A.D. under Nero according to this Wiki excerpt below? That makes the above referenced Timothy and wife in question, since they were martyrs under Diocletian (284-305 A.D.), which was about two centuries later?
Perhaps you meant this St. Timothy who died around 97 A.D. at the age of 80 as a result of stoning, who was a close companion of Paul's?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Timothy
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Post by StAnne on Nov 24, 2014 14:12:22 GMT -5
St. Anne ~ I believe Timothy was a disciple of Paul, who lived within the first century and estimated to have died around mid-60's AD under Nero's rule according to Wiki excerpt below? That makes me question the reference above to him and his wife dying as martyrs under Diocletian rule (284-305 A.D.), which was about two centuries later?
I believe I have erroneously posted about St Timothy the Reader. So. I have deleted.
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