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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 23:52:12 GMT -5
What about people who convert to Islam who are already resident in the USA and perhaps can trace their ancestry in the USA back several centuries. more likely as not they will already be assimilated if they are born here...i'm sure there will be exceptions but they should be few...
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Post by Mary on Jan 11, 2015 23:59:08 GMT -5
I thought we lived in the 21st century where we show some respect for those of different cultures, races and religions and do not go around deliberately insulting and mocking others knowing quite well that you are striking at the core of that religion.
Where was everyone when the French government sent one of their men to our shores to bomb a Greenpeace boat regardless of who was inside the boat. Then after promises from the French government that he would be jailed in his country if we returned him he was instead hailed a hero and given the best by the their government.
A stand against terrorism is one thing and needed, a stand for mocking, insulting and ridiculing others is another.
Anything goes guys, abuse whoever you want in the name of free speech and democracy.
What kind of mind draws thinks up and draws pictures of an Orthodox Jew kissing a Nazi soldier, the Pope holding a condom, nuns having orgies, etc. etc. and other words too sick to use.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 12, 2015 0:19:58 GMT -5
I quite agree Mary, with every freedom or right there is a responsibility. Which seems to be sadly lacking in some cases. I've noticed recently that WASP's are appearing again. The question I have to ask myself is " Will what I'm about to say be edifying?
I have a bookmark, some may recognise this mantra. 1, Is it the truth? 2,Is it fair to all concerned? 3, Will it build Goodwill and better Friendships? 4, Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 0:42:21 GMT -5
only if they allow more muslims to come to the USA and they dont assimilate... You of all kinds of Americans should not make such a statement. Your ethnic group was the one that never assimilated. You took over everything and then claimed to be the original (you meaning your ethnic group).
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 0:43:16 GMT -5
What about people who convert to Islam who are already resident in the USA and perhaps can trace their ancestry in the USA back several centuries. There were a lot of Muslims here before there ever was a USA. And it was WASPS who brought them here.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 0:51:54 GMT -5
What about people who convert to Islam who are already resident in the USA and perhaps can trace their ancestry in the USA back several centuries. more likely as not they will already be assimilated if they are born here...i'm sure there will be exceptions but they should be few... No Wally -- they were not allowed to assimilate until 1866 by the 14th Amendment. Problem is, their skin is still black.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 1:04:27 GMT -5
I thought we lived in the 21st century where we show some respect for those of different cultures, races and religions and do not go around deliberately insulting and mocking others knowing quite well that you are striking at the core of that religion. It's justified by the "fact" that the other religions are an evil to be conquered. That belief is still prevalent. This is what all governments (including yours) do to rescue their citizens from other governments. Unfortunately mocking, insulting and ridiculing others is the purpose of free speech. It is not a crime in any free country, and is the health of a democracy. You do not abuse a person because you speak against him -- unless it is slander or libel. I think you do not understand the purpose of satire ... at all.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 2:54:55 GMT -5
I quite agree Mary, with every freedom or right there is a responsibility. Which seems to be sadly lacking in some cases. I've noticed recently that WASP's are appearing again. The question I have to ask myself is " Will what I'm about to say be edifying? I have a bookmark, some may recognise this mantra. 1, Is it the truth? 2, Is it fair to all concerned? 3, Will it build Goodwill and better Friendships? 4, Will it be Beneficial to all concerned? This is good for families and other closed groups. But it is a contradiction of freedom of expression. What this quote implies is that all concerned deserve all the "will it be..." In societies, the truth has a tendency to disturb the social order -- it never works, but the longer the truth is hidden the worse the eventual problems will be. What is fair? Truth is, if some of the postings on this board were posted publicly the Paris trio would be just as ready to massacre us. Idealists don't make exceptions for degrees of offense -- they will intrude on our liberties to every extent and treat us their way. It's also good to remember that we all benefit from living in societies that achieved their liberties without respecting items 2. 3. and 4. FWIW
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Post by Mary on Jan 12, 2015 3:40:35 GMT -5
It would not be accepted in our country and I certainly understand the purpose of satire. It is an excuse to mock and insult people under the title of satire. Many other papers chose not to publish the pictures. So you are saying I can insult other cultures and religions, even talk about bombing a place and get away with it if I call it satire? It is actually against the law no matter what title you choose to minimise it under. I thought even words like negro, blacks, golliwog etc were considered inappropriate in your country but if I put it under the title of satire it is acceptable? There are certain standards that the law states we must adhere too.
Having said that, I like what the Queen of Jordan said, that these terrorists use religion as an excuse to do their killings.
They had no reason to kill those in the kosher restaurant as they had nothing to do with the cartoons the same as ISSL have no reason to kill innocent people in Syria and Iraq and other countries but they use their religion as an excuse for doing it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 4:54:58 GMT -5
It would not be accepted in our country What wouldn't be acceptable in your country? That definition is not acceptable, You get an F+ Of course not. Actually, most papers don't because they're not satirical papers. Do you read The Chaser? It's up to them to decide whether it's insulting or not, but yes, of course, describe them how you will. That's not satire. That's a threat of criminal activity. You'd not get away with it if the owner of the property reported you for it. Nothing is against the law unless it is libelous, slanderous, or a threat of harm to person or property. Inappropriate is NOT illegal. In the US "negro" is long outdated, "black" is perfectly acceptable, and I have never heard the word "golliwog". There are only 13 illegal words in the US and they are the F... word and a few more like it. It is the content that makes it illegal, not what you call it. Yes, and satire is of the very essence of freedom of expression. You probably have noticed that the French (including French Muslims) in the millions have demonstrated for this freedom of speech called satire. They're not yelling "kill Muslims", they're carrying pens and pencils because the society is mature enough to understand that the massacre, as horrible as it was, is secondary to their most basic democratic rights. The purpose of freedom of expression is intended to give a voice to people who want to criticize the status quo. If that were not the case, there would be no need for freedom of speech laws because everyone who spoke agreeably would get to say anything they wanted. That's a symptom of dictatorship, at best, Nazi-style totalitarianism at its worst.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2015 4:56:29 GMT -5
It would not be accepted in our country and I certainly understand the purpose of satire. It is an excuse to mock and insult people under the title of satire. Many other papers chose not to publish the pictures. So you are saying I can insult other cultures and religions, even talk about bombing a place and get away with it if I call it satire? It is actually against the law no matter what title you choose to minimise it under. I thought even words like negro, blacks, golliwog etc were considered inappropriate in your country but if I put it under the title of satire it is acceptable? There are certain standards that the law states we must adhere too. Where do you live, Mary?Where is it is against the law?
Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are two of the most important items in order to have a democracy.
Without them both, one could not be free to say what they thought and the Press is not free to publish it.
What gets burned the first time a dictatorial government takes over? The books, why? Because books have ideas that a very controlling government doesn't want distributed
That is why the Paris killings caused such an uproar all over the world. Because it was about those two, freedom of speech AND freedom of the Press. Satire has been around for a long time.Satire is a genre of literature, and sometimes graphic and performing arts, in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, corporations, government or society itself, into improvement.[1]
Athough satire is usually meant to be humorous, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon and as a tool to draw attention to both particular and wider issues in society.
Laughter is not an essential component of satire;[8] in fact there are types of satire that are not meant to be "funny" at all. Conversely, not all humour, even on such topics as politics, religion or art is necessarily "satirical", even when it uses the satirical tools of irony, parody, and burlesque.
Even light-hearted satire has a serious "after-taste": the organizers of the Ig Nobel Prize describe this as "first make people laugh, and then make them think".
wiki
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2015 9:57:56 GMT -5
I thought we lived in the 21st century where we show some respect for those of different cultures, races and religions and do not go around deliberately insulting and mocking others knowing quite well that you are striking at the core of that religion. Sometimes it takes a lot to point out what is wrong with the sacred cows. The RCC speaking against condoms and birth control results in excess STDs and an increase in abortions as well as unwanted children. Pointing out the religious sanctions against woman raised by some religions needs to be placed under the spotlight. If there was a religion that had, at its core, the sacrifice of children should people not bring attention to the practice? Even if that attention resorted to mocking to gain attention?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 12:09:32 GMT -5
more likely as not they will already be assimilated if they are born here...i'm sure there will be exceptions but they should be few... No Wally -- they were not allowed to assimilate until 1866 by the 14th Amendment. Problem is, their skin is still black. were talking about people today bob they've assimilated with exceptions...
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Post by fixit on Jan 12, 2015 12:53:32 GMT -5
A stand against terrorism is one thing and needed, a stand for mocking, insulting and ridiculing others is another. Anything goes guys, abuse whoever you want in the name of free speech and democracy. What kind of mind draws thinks up and draws pictures of an Orthodox Jew kissing a Nazi soldier, the Pope holding a condom, nuns having orgies, etc. etc. and other words too sick to use.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 22:40:10 GMT -5
No Wally -- they were not allowed to assimilate until 1866 by the 14th Amendment. Problem is, their skin is still black. were talking about people today bob they've assimilated with exceptions... I'm talking about today too, and I'm talking about WASPs assimilating with the North American culture. Or have WASPs always been the exception from assimilating with cultures they move into? Your/my kind have a centuries long history of forcing the rest of the world to assimilate to our cultural expectations -- it was always racism and it still is racism.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 22:52:04 GMT -5
were talking about people today bob they've assimilated with exceptions... I'm talking about today too, and I'm talking about WASPs assimilating with the North American culture. Or have WASPs always been the exception from assimilating with cultures they move into? Your/my kind have a centuries long history of forcing the rest of the world to assimilate to our cultural expectations -- it was always racism and it still is racism. bob every color and nation on earth has forced assimilation on people coming into it and if they didn't they were soon ousted by the newer people...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2015 23:06:37 GMT -5
I'm talking about today too, and I'm talking about WASPs assimilating with the North American culture. Or have WASPs always been the exception from assimilating with cultures they move into? Your/my kind have a centuries long history of forcing the rest of the world to assimilate to our cultural expectations -- it was always racism and it still is racism. bob every color and nation on earth has forced assimilation on people coming into it and if they didn't they were soon ousted by the newer people... Really? Wonder how that got reversed when the white man came to the New World? The white man didn't seem to experience "forced assimilation by the natives. Instead they just took over the whole area.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 23:09:04 GMT -5
I'm talking about today too, and I'm talking about WASPs assimilating with the North American culture. Or have WASPs always been the exception from assimilating with cultures they move into? Your/my kind have a centuries long history of forcing the rest of the world to assimilate to our cultural expectations -- it was always racism and it still is racism. bob every color and nation on earth has forced assimilation on people coming into it and if they didn't they were soon ousted by the newer people... Baloney -- Think about South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA -- Purely white European at their core. How much native American influence is evident in your house? ?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2015 23:12:58 GMT -5
bob every color and nation on earth has forced assimilation on people coming into it and if they didn't they were soon ousted by the newer people... Really? Wonder how that got reversed when the white man came to the New World? The white man didn't seem to experience "forced assimilation by the natives. Instead they just took over the whole area.
Whites who assimilated with native American culture are to this day categorized as "distinct" from American culture. Heck, white Americans don't even know how so many European genes got into the native population. They think that "Pend-Oreille" and "Nez Perce" are Indian names.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 23:28:20 GMT -5
bob every color and nation on earth has forced assimilation on people coming into it and if they didn't they were soon ousted by the newer people... Baloney -- Think about South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA -- Purely white European at their core. How much native American influence is evident in your house? ? we have cities named after tribes parks/rivers/mts and such also named after tribes i have a couple paintings done by native americans in my home with native american themes alot of art work around washington state is native american especially if its on state/public grounds and dont even get me started on military hardware named for native americans. i even lived on the flathead reservation in montana for awhile so i mingled with them for awhile.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 13, 2015 0:42:32 GMT -5
Baloney -- Think about South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA -- Purely white European at their core. How much native American influence is evident in your house? ? we have cities named after tribes parks/rivers/mts and such also named after tribes i have a couple paintings done by native americans in my home with native american themes alot of art work around washington state is native american especially if its on state/public grounds and dont even get me started on military hardware named for native americans. i even lived on the flathead reservation in montana for awhile so i mingled with them for awhile. Wow! Gee! Sounds as if you are almost a "half-breed" Wally!
PS.
That is satire, wally.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2015 0:49:39 GMT -5
Baloney -- Think about South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA -- Purely white European at their core. How much native American influence is evident in your house? ? we have cities named after tribes parks/rivers/mts and such also named after tribes i have a couple paintings done by native americans in my home with native american themes alot of art work around washington state is native american especially if its on state/public grounds and dont even get me started on military hardware named for native americans. i even lived on the flathead reservation in montana for awhile so i mingled with them for awhile. Yes, quaint names give great flavor and the art is beautiful. Have you ever considered naming your child something like "American Horse"? Do you appreciate a sweat lodge experience? Do you wear traditional native dress when you go out? What about your life-style has been borrowed from native culture? I have chief's headdress mounted in my house, but I have no assimilation whatsoever into native culture -- not even after lots of study and first hand experience among them. I even speak a bit of Mi'qmac and fostered Mi'qmac children. There's an expression: The rest of the world is like a museum, wonderful places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2015 0:53:17 GMT -5
we have cities named after tribes parks/rivers/mts and such also named after tribes i have a couple paintings done by native americans in my home with native american themes alot of art work around washington state is native american especially if its on state/public grounds and dont even get me started on military hardware named for native americans. i even lived on the flathead reservation in montana for awhile so i mingled with them for awhile. Wow! Gee! Sounds as if you are almost a "half-breed" Wally!
PS.
That is satire, wally.
I notice that a whole string of cities in New York state are ancient Middle-East names. I didn't know the Greeks came here and took over. Oh yes, Wally knows I'd ignore him if he wasn't worth playing devil's advocate with.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 13, 2015 0:53:20 GMT -5
Yer so the Wasp's named a helicopter after some Indians. Almost makes up for the land they stole off them.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2015 1:56:40 GMT -5
Yer so the Wasp's named a helicopter after some Indians. Almost makes up for the land they stole off them. Anything they want to make sound frightful they name after something native American.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 13, 2015 2:19:38 GMT -5
Custer was a portent of what was to come in the US army
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2015 2:51:14 GMT -5
Custer was a portent of what was to come in the US army Two first nations on this continent are now extinct, the Beothuks and the Massachusetts. They used to go hunting (like wild animals) the Beothuks until there were none left. And the Massachusetts were mostly gotten rid of by accepting from white colonists the bedding of small pox people who had died. Speaking of myth, try the US history books for kiddies. And so many people accept it as history.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 13, 2015 2:55:18 GMT -5
I have heard of the small pox blankets. Have you ever listened to Buffy St Marie's music. I have met her here when she was doing a few shows and talked to her about similarities between how the Indian and the Maori were treated. There is so much that a white man has to be proud of!
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