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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 20, 2014 11:27:20 GMT -5
I recently received a large batch of letters by Wm Irvine from a current day follower, and this was included: QUESTION: What amount of money is this? In my first mission I lived on 5/- per week in N. of Ireland.
Wm Irvine’s Letter to A. J. Dunbar December 4, 1922 Box 553 P.O. Jerusalem, Palestine
My Dear Dunbars:
Now I must thank you for your kind consideration in the matter of the suit. I bought a pair of Soldier’s pants today for winter wear for 2 ½ dollars—good strong warm and comfortable English Tommy Atkins war pants. I got a leather vest from London with sleeves in it for writing in at night. The pair I gave to the dog was the last suit I got in Los Angeles in 1917. I bought a second hand suit in Pasadena, when W. Edwards came down and they were good value, and I wear them yet. Willie sent me 2 suits, one of which I have worn a good deal. But I’m rich and increased in suits if they are all a little big for me. But I value the hearts that give me more than ever; in these days when the shadow of the cross has to be endured and the shame of it all has to be despised. That came to Him ere He could sit down at the right hand.
I can only remember having 5 new suits for 21 years after I got saved. All the others were 2nd hand, which I bought that I might be able to help others who were anxious to go preach. During the war I bought 4 new suits: one at $10 (2 at $15) all in Los Angeles, and one at $10 in Glasgow.
For 30 years I'm sure my clothing has not been over $10 per year--for all I had in clothing. This meant a good deal to others for they were willing to do with (without?) what I did in the days when the best and hardest and most effective work was done for and by God. And my living was just as economical.
In my first mission I lived on 5/- per week in N. of Ireland. In Co. Clare, amongst the Catholic's I lived one week on porridge twice a day to keep the Christian lady we stayed with from stealing our food. I found she hated porridge after she stole the half of our goods from Saturday to Monday. For 2 months I lived on eggs, which I took for some of the books sold--when eggs were 5 cents per dozen. At that time American Bacon could be bought in Ireland for 7 cents per pound. So I got plenty of cheap potatoes, eggs and bacon. Bread was 5 cents for 2 pound loaf.
From the very first I got to see that the poverty of Jesus was something more than matter of choice--and it was a power in producing the best qualities in the Testimony. I always enjoyed the good cheer of the Saints, though I know something of the other side also. If I never had much to give the workers in the Early Days, I always gave them all I had, when I might well have been much more comfortable than I ever was found.
My bicycle was often all the car fare I had, when the best days’ work was being done. And how many wet tired skins I had is now a source of real Joy to me with all the other pioneer experiences in making it possible for any honest heart to go and do likewise.
To teach the Saints to show hospitality to the workers and each other was a big job, for it was not by preaching it to them. And to teach the Saints and workers not to abuse this was as hard as was the other side. I did not do it--there was no other. When most of the present old workers came on the scene, it was to reap what I had sowed and they have been reaping ever since and many of them produced very little while reaping very much. Even the getting of workers to give all they had was no small difficulty--which I had done without anyone to encourage me, and in spite of all the difficulties of finding a way out for myself.
I can look back with Joy on it all and say that God and I were the only shapers of the whole Way, Truth and Life which so many are so fond to claim as their own.
The work in U.S.A. and Canada was all built on the very little friendships which I had made. Same in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. And the few know all it meant in putting it into the hearts of workers and turning them up to the music making.
It was all God and I from first to last--and all we have seen since has only been like most others going because they were provided for, and a soft imitation of the Early Days.
I was as the main spring and the binder together, which was the real strength of The Testimony. And when I had finished the House, it was to find myself out and with God; and the House in possession of Thieves and Robbers--as it was in Jesus day.
Never mind I’ll overturn the money changers tables and drive out the Thieves and Robbers, more real and thorough than they ever dream, and I'll not make a whip of small cords--but do it with an Iron Rod.
Wm. Irvine.
NOTE: Irvine usually referred to the 2x2 system as "The Testimony" in his letters.
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Oct 20, 2014 12:54:44 GMT -5
WI sounds like he had a bit of ego when he talked about starting the sect. "Soft imitation of the Early Days" is what really gets me. Workers believe that what they do/did was really done in the same nebulous/figurative way as in the bible. What Christians need to believe is that things done in the bible were literal, not figurative the way workers proclaim it. I heard more figurative references from workers than I ever learned about in any Literature class in school.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 20, 2014 15:23:22 GMT -5
The thing is Nathan, that you and some others have long given as a reason Irvine could not be the founder was bcs there was no writing by Irvine where he claimed he was the founder. In this letter, (in essence) Irvine claimed that he originated it.
I have about another 200 to 300 letters of his to read that I've never seen before and there's no telling what else could turn up.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 20, 2014 15:33:34 GMT -5
Nate: I stand corrected. Others have said this tho.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 3:20:14 GMT -5
I recently received a large batch of letters by Wm Irvine from a current day follower, and this was included: Wm Irvine’s Letter to A. J. Dunbar December 4, 1922Box 553 P.O. Jerusalem, Palestine My Dear Dunbars: Now I must thank you for your kind consideration in the matter of the suit. I bought a pair of Soldier’s pants today for winter wear for 2 ½ dollars—good strong warm and comfortable English Tommy Atkins war pants. I got a leather vest from London with sleeves in it for writing in at night. The pair I gave to the dog was the last suit I got in Los Angeles in 1917. I bought a second hand suit in Pasadena, when W. Edwards came down and they were good value, and I wear them yet. Willie sent me 2 suits, one of which I have worn a good deal. But I’m rich and increased in suits if they are all a little big for me. But I value the hearts that give me more than ever; in these days when the shadow of the cross has to be endured and the shame of it all has to be despised. That came to Him ere He could sit down at the right hand. I can only remember having 5 new suits for 21 years after I got saved. All the others were 2nd hand, which I bought that I might be able to help others who were anxious to go preach. During the war I bought 4 new suits: one at $10 (2 at $15) all in Los Angeles, and one at $10 in Glasgow. For 30 years I'm sure my clothing has not been over $10 per year--for all I had in clothing. This meant a good deal to others for they were willing to do with (without?) what I did in the days when the best and hardest and most effective work was done for and by God. And my living was just as economical. In my first mission I lived on 5/- per week in N. of Ireland. In Co. Clare, amongst the Catholic's I lived one week on porridge twice a day to keep the Christian lady we stayed with from stealing our food. I found she hated porridge after she stole the half of our goods from Saturday to Monday. For 2 months I lived on eggs, which I took for some of the books sold--when eggs were 5 cents per dozen. At that time American Bacon could be bought in Ireland for 7 cents per pound. So I got plenty of cheap potatoes, eggs and bacon. Bread was 5 cents for 2 pound loaf. From the very first I got to see that the poverty of Jesus was something more than matter of choice--and it was a power in producing the best qualities in the Testimony. I always enjoyed the good cheer of the Saints, though I know something of the other side also. If I never had much to give the workers in the Early Days, I always gave them all I had, when I might well have been much more comfortable than I ever was found. My bicycle was often all the car fare I had, when the best days’ work was being done. And how many wet tired skins I had is now a source of real Joy to me with all the other pioneer experiences in making it possible for any honest heart to go and do likewise. To teach the Saints to show hospitality to the workers and each other was a big job, for it was not by preaching it to them. And to teach the Saints and workers not to abuse this was as hard as was the other side. I did not do it--there was no other. When most of the present old workers came on the scene, it was to reap what I had sowed and they have been reaping ever since and many of them produced very little while reaping very much. Even the getting of workers to give all they had was no small difficulty--which I had done without anyone to encourage me, and in spite of all the difficulties of finding a way out for myself.
I can look back with Joy on it all and say that God and I were the only shapers of the whole Way, Truth and Life which so many are so fond to claim as their own.
The work in U.S.A. and Canada was all built on the very little friendships which I had made. Same in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. And the few know all it meant in putting it into the hearts of workers and turning them up to the music making.
It was all God and I from first to last--and all we have seen since has only been like most others going because they were provided for, and a soft imitation of the Early Days. I was as the main spring and the binder together, which was the real strength of The Testimony. And when I had finished the House, it was to find myself out and with God; and the House in possession of Thieves and Robbers--as it was in Jesus day.
Never mind I’ll overturn the money changers tables and drive out the Thieves and Robbers, more real and thorough than they ever dream, and I'll not make a whip of small cords--but do it with an Iron Rod. Wm. Irvine. NOTE: Irvine usually referred to the 2x2 system as "The Testimony" in his letters. seemed like he wanted to be the big i am
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 3:40:16 GMT -5
It's obvious this guy loved himself. Probably telling people he invented the eucharist, too.
And his theology is a bit odd: To my knowledge Jesus never suffered from poverty.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 21, 2014 13:23:11 GMT -5
WI stole his 2x2 workers ideas from the Faith Mission, John Govan. AND. John G. got his ideas from Holiness Keswick convention movement... AND they got their idea from.... Noravian.... and they got their idea from the Waldensians/Vaudois Paul's followers from Rome in A.D. 70.... Paul got his apostolic Itinerant ministry from Jesus, who is the FOUNDER or STARTER of the New Testament ministry and Church. For William Irvine to claim he is the founder or starter of what we 2x2 believe today is FALSE. Whathat wrote: Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement. Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same. So, this is from wiki - It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9] And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots. Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers I wonder what will follow the Friends and Workers.... Hmm. I started to read this, and at some point realized that I wrote it, which it says, but I missed that. Given that you read this, Ross, I would like to point out a couple of things. 1) This is a succession of a key idea or ideas, not a church lineage, as such. 2) Even as a succession of ideas, the linkages are real but tentative. For example, how much was Wesley's doctrine of Christian Perfection influenced by the Moravians? I personally don't know how much, beyond finding a reference that this was the case, and of course, it is well known that Wesley consorted with the Moravians and eventually had a falling out with them. 3) Each link is one branch in a tree of many branches, at least from 'Holiness' forward. 'Holiness' influenced a large number of existing denominations and ultimately to a number of new denominations and movements including the Pentecostal movement. So instead of "what's next" you might also ask "What else"?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 21, 2014 14:18:35 GMT -5
WI sounds like he had a bit of ego when he talked about starting the sect. "Soft imitation of the Early Days" is what really gets me. Workers believe that what they do/did was really done in the same nebulous/figurative way as in the bible. What Christians need to believe is that things done in the bible w ere literal, not figurative the way workers proclaim it. I heard more figurative references from workers than I ever learned about in any Literature class in school. Yes, -Wm. Irvin's ego seemed to know no end. But when you consider it, -so was Paul's ego.
However, I don't understand what you mean by, "What Christians need to believe is that things done in the bible were literal, not figurative the way."
What instances are you referring to?
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Post by Mary on Oct 21, 2014 15:19:09 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers
This is different from what the workers have preached all these years. They claim unlike other churches, they are not a break away from anyone else.
The workers say: Jesus --- them.
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Post by Mary on Oct 21, 2014 15:23:19 GMT -5
If Irvine started the group as all the evidence points to, then he has every right to say so.
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Post by Mary on Oct 21, 2014 15:31:50 GMT -5
I know WhatHat wrote it but I am quoting what you wrote on the thread. Breaking away is not following the early church it is breaking away from another church when the workers claim they never broke away from any other church or movement. Of course I don't believe them.
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Oct 21, 2014 22:47:20 GMT -5
WI sounds like he had a bit of ego when he talked about starting the sect. "Soft imitation of the Early Days" is what really gets me. Workers believe that what they do/did was really done in the same nebulous/figurative way as in the bible. What Christians need to believe is that things done in the bible w ere literal, not figurative the way workers proclaim it. I heard more figurative references from workers than I ever learned about in any Literature class in school. Yes, -Wm. Irvin's ego seemed to know no end. But when you consider it, -so was Paul's ego.
However, I don't understand what you mean by, "What Christians need to believe is that things done in the bible were literal, not figurative the way."
What instances are you referring to?
I think if one chooses to believe the bible, the things written in Matthew 10 are not just figurative types of speech that is similar to how workers want people to think about them. v5&6 don't go to the Gentiles but to Jews (what are most Western Europeans and a significant population of the US?), v8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give (ever seen a worker physically do any of this besides freely receive/give?), v9 no money for your purses (granted some junior workers might not have much cash on hand, but what about overseers?), and so on. Can you imagine if you were seeing miracles happen and performed by essentially groupies of Jesus? Workers will take this - and I have heard them talk about this very thing - and say that the disciples were doing this 'spiritually' and not literally. What kind of spirit has leprosy? How do they know a spirit is 'dead'? Have you ever seen a worker cast out devils 'spiritually'? What kind of exorcism occurs to accomplish that? Then again, part of what I was trying to insinuate as well is that I'm not really in a position where I really believe the bible anymore. After what we exes came out of, it shouldn't be far fetched to see why some of us became atheists and agnostics.
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Post by Mary on Oct 21, 2014 23:33:39 GMT -5
I heard it many times preached at convention that only Jesus literally did these things but that the apostles did not. The workers said that when Jesus told the apostles to raise the dead, he meant spiritually, when he said the blind and deaf were healed it was spiritually. We were told the apostles did not heal but that all these things were spiritual and the workers claim that they do just this. When someone professes their eyes and ears have been opened spiritually. Guess they have to justify not being able to do these miracles that the apostles did and not obeying Matthew 10 which they claimed they were following. Giving freely like the person above said, the workers only took they did not give. They accept free homes, cars and keep as well which is taking not giving. They also take money which they need the same as everyone to survive.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 22, 2014 1:13:44 GMT -5
Yes, -Wm. Irvin's ego seemed to know no end. But when you consider it, -so was Paul's ego.
However, I don't understand what you mean by, "What Christians need to believe is that things done in the bible were literal, not figurative the way."
What instances are you referring to?
I think if one chooses to believe the bible, the things written in Matthew 10 are not just figurative types of speech that is similar to how workers want people to think about them. v5&6 don't go to the Gentiles but to Jews (what are most Western Europeans and a significant population of the US?), v8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give (ever seen a worker physically do any of this besides freely receive/give?), v9 no money for your purses (granted some junior workers might not have much cash on hand, but what about overseers?), and so on. Can you imagine if you were seeing miracles happen and performed by essentially groupies of Jesus? Workers will take this - and I have heard them talk about this very thing - and say that the disciples were doing this 'spiritually' and not literally. What kind of spirit has leprosy? How do they know a spirit is 'dead'? Have you ever seen a worker cast out devils 'spiritually'? What kind of exorcism occurs to accomplish that? Then again, part of what I was trying to insinuate as well is that I'm not really in a position where I really believe the bible anymore. After what we exes came out of, it shouldn't be far fetched to see why some of us became atheists and agnostics. Ah, I understand.
Yes, I agree, "After what we exes came out of, it shouldn't be far fetched to see why some of us became atheists and agnostics."
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2014 13:50:27 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers This is different from what the workers have preached all these years. They claim unlike other churches, they are not a break away from anyone else. The workers say: Jesus --- them. Here are the unique aspects of the f&w church that were actually all inherited from the Faith Mission: "union meetings", the term "workers","gospel meetings", "professing at a gospel meeting", "testimonies", "conventions", allowing female workers, ministry referred to as "the work". Here is the number of times I've heard a friend or worker reference the Faith Mission: 0. So, as you indicate, they do leave out a couple of steps.
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