|
Post by faune on Oct 11, 2014 22:45:12 GMT -5
I read from the book of Enoch... Sodom and Gomorrah sins were NOT showing hospitality to strangers who enter to their cities as visitors. They did NOT welcome their guests, some of the visitors were robbed and killed. 2) The practice of homosexuality acts. Sodom and Gomorrah sins were NOT showing hospitality to strangers who enter to their cities as visitors. They did NOT welcome their guests, some of the visitors were robbed, raped, and/or killed. Does the book of Enoch actually mention homosexuality? Ezekiel 16:49-50 spells out the faults of Sodom.Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Rational ~ I believe I may have found an answer to your question. Since the Book of Enoch is referenced in the book of Jude and verses 6- 7 speaks about Sodom and Gomorrah, I feel this article will shed some light on what God considered abominable here, which I stand corrected myself after reviewing the evidence. However, the following statement seems to sum up the evidence that follows:
"John MacArthur says the sin of Sodom was men trying to have sex with angels....Thus, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was seeking union with "different flesh" in a way similar to what the "sons of God" (angels?) did (Gen 6:2) when they mingled with "the daughters of men" (humans)."
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1 (Book of Jude, AMP Version)
archive.org/stream/AllTheBooksOfEnochenoch1Enoch2Enoch3/AllBooksOfEnoch#page/n3/mode/2up Internet Archives/Book of Enoch
www.gaychristian101.com/Jude.html
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 11, 2014 23:10:17 GMT -5
God destroyed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah cities, because there were No righteous/good person to be found, except Lot, his 2 daughters and his wife, who turned into a pillar of Salt for looking back at the destruction. I am not saying that was not the case. It does not mean they were all homosexuals. It does not mean any of them were. It means they were they were not righteous. Perhaps very inhospitable to strangers. How could a city composed of only homosexuals survive? Having children is pretty much the only growth path. The bible never mentions homosexuality in regard to Sodom. The bible never mentions rape in regard to Sodom. The only one talking about sex is Lot when he offered his virgin daughters to the crowd, the same ones that he later impregnated. And the word 'know' does not always mean sex. It is used over 950 times in the bible and less than 15 places does it mean in a sexual way. There is a lot amiss with this story and the crowd asking to know the strangers is only the tip of the problems.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 11, 2014 23:42:21 GMT -5
I am not saying that was not the case. It does not mean they were all homosexuals. It does not mean any of them were. It means they were they were not righteous. Perhaps very inhospitable to strangers. How could a city composed of only homosexuals survive? Having children is pretty much the only growth path. The bible never mentions homosexuality in regard to Sodom. The bible never mentions rape in regard to Sodom. The only one talking about sex is Lot when he offered his virgin daughters to the crowd, the same ones that he later impregnated. And the word 'know' does not always mean sex. It is used over 950 times in the bible and less than 15 places does it mean in a sexual way. There is a lot amiss with this story and the crowd asking to know the strangers is only the tip of the problems. MANY of the translations translated "KNOW them" means having sexual intercourse.
Gen 19:5 They called out to Lot and asked, “Where are the men who came to visit you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!” The men in Sodom and Gomorrah didn't know the two visitors were angels in human form.They knew little about them. They did know they were strangers inside the city walls. They were a threat to the security of the city. The bible mentions spies sneaking into cities. Isn't it possible that the citizens actually wanted to know these individuals? Know about them and why they were in the newcomer's house? How many translations make the jump right to sex/rape? About 8 out of 19? Less than 1/ 2. The majority wins!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 0:13:40 GMT -5
Rational ~ Here's an excerpt from Genesis 19, AMP Version, which describes this incident in which all the men of the Sodom, young and old, surrounded Lot's house and demanded he bring out the two male visitors out for them to know them. However, after reading John McArthur's commentary regarding this chapter and the reference in Jude, vs. 6-7 related to the same, it appears the men's intention was to have sex with these angelic visitors? Also, I believe the men of this town probably thought they were angelic visitors, because all the males came out to meet with them, young and old? Besides, if it was only to gain information from them about their reason for visiting, why would Lot offer his "virgin daughters" to them to do as they wish? If sexual relations with these angels weren't on their mind, I can't imagine what else was in its place? Otherwise, why would Lot offer them his two daughters to have their way with instead and caution them against engaging in great wickedness? Also, since they were men, it's apparent their interest was in having homosexual relations with them, since the angels were dressed as men and addressed as the same by the men of Sodom? JMT Perhaps these men of Sodom did reason that these men were angels sent to Lot and they wanted to enjoy sex with them as the women did with the angels back in Genesis 6? At least, that seems to be what John MacArthur alluded to in his commentary I quoted previously ~ namely, fornication with angels, as is referenced in the Book of Jude?
When Lot hesitated to grant their wish, they said, "This fellow came in to live here temporarily, and now he presumes to be [our] judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them. So they rushed at and pressed violently against Lot and came close to breaking down the door. Obviously, their visit by night was not favorably intended from this description of violence?
Genesis 19 Amplified Bible (AMP)
19 It was evening when the two angels came to Sodom. Lot was sitting at Sodom’s [city] gate. Seeing them, Lot rose up to meet them and bowed to the ground.
2 And he said, My lords, turn aside, I beg of you, into your servant’s house and spend the night and bathe your feet. Then you can arise early and go on your way. But they said, No, we will spend the night in the square.
3 [Lot] entreated and urged them greatly until they yielded and [with him] entered his house. And he made them a dinner [with drinking] and had unleavened bread which he baked, and they ate.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city of Sodom, both young and old, all the men from every quarter, surrounded the house.
5 And they called to Lot and said, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know (be intimate with) them.
6 And Lot went out of the door to the men and shut the door after him
7 And said, I beg of you, my brothers, do not behave so wickedly.
8 Look now, I have two daughters who are virgins; let me, I beg of you, bring them out to you, and you can do as you please with them. But only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.
9 But they said, Stand back! And they said, This fellow came in to live here temporarily, and now he presumes to be [our] judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them. So they rushed at and pressed violently against Lot and came close to breaking down the door.
10 But the men [the angels] reached out and pulled Lot into the house to them and shut the door after him.
11 And they struck the men who were at the door of the house with blindness [which dazzled them], from the youths to the old men, so that they wearied themselves [groping] to find the door.
12 And the [two] men asked Lot, Have you any others here—sons-in-law or your sons or your daughters? Whomever you have in the city, bring them out of this place,
13 For we will spoil and destroy [Sodom]; for the outcry and shriek against its people has grown great before the Lord, and He has sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, Up, get out of this place, for the Lord will spoil and destroy this city! But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be [only] joking.
15 When morning came, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, Arise, take your wife and two daughters who are here [and be off], lest you [too] be consumed and swept away in the iniquity and punishment of the city.
16 But while he lingered, the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, for the Lord was merciful to him; and they brought him forth and set him outside the city and left him there.
17 And when they had brought them forth, they said, Escape for your life! Do not look behind you or stop anywhere in the whole valley; escape to the mountains [of Moab], lest you be consumed.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 0:25:18 GMT -5
They knew little about them. They did know they were strangers inside the city walls. They were a threat to the security of the city. The bible mentions spies sneaking into cities. Isn't it possible that the citizens actually wanted to know these individuals? Know about them and why they were in the newcomer's house? How many translations make the jump right to sex/rape? About 8 out of 19? Less than 1/ 2. The majority wins! hmmmmm.... If they just want to "know" the two visitors then WHY? did the angels blinded the men eyes, so they couldn't find the door to enter Lot's house. Why blind the men eyes? if they just want to know who were the two visitors. They want to have SEX with Lot's two visitors.Lot was keeping them outside. The men outside were exhibiting mob behavior. How, exactly, were all of the men in the city going to have sex with two individuals? Like so many stories, it doesn't make sense in real life. The 'angels' were protecting Lot et al from the mob. Blinding them confused them.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 0:54:53 GMT -5
hmmmmm.... If they just want to "know" the two visitors then WHY? did the angels blinded the men eyes, so they couldn't find the door to enter Lot's house. Why blind the men eyes? if they just want to know who were the two visitors. They want to have SEX with Lot's two visitors. Lot was keeping them outside. The men outside were exhibiting mob behavior. How, exactly, were all of the men in the city going to have sex with two individuals? Like so many stories, it doesn't make sense in real life. The 'angels' were protecting Lot et al from the mob. Blinding them confused them. Rational ~ As I quoted previously, the men became perturbed with Lot's supplications and offer of his daughters to replace the visitors. As a result, they further decided to do to Lot as was intended for the male visitors. It was then when the angels pulled Lot inside the house and struck all the men with blindness, which prevented them from gaining entrance into Lot's house to violently gang rape the visitors along with Lot's family most likely by then?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Oct 12, 2014 1:09:05 GMT -5
Rational ~ Here's an excerpt from Genesis 19, AMP Version, which describes this incident in which all the men of the Sodom, young and old, surrounded Lot's house and demanded he bring out the two male visitors out for them to know them. However, after reading John McArthur's commentary regarding this chapter and the reference .
Here are a few other interesting beliefs of John F. MacArthur "John F. MacArthur advocates young-earth creationism.
He is also an advocate of Nouthetic Counseling, which stresses the Bible as a sufficient tool for counseling people with mental illnesses such as depression and anxiety. MacArthur does not reject all forms of psychological theories and techniques, though he considers some psychology and psychiatry as contrary to the Bible." from wiki
That rather gives a bit of perspective on how much one can trust John F. MacArthur beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 13:38:29 GMT -5
Rational ~ As I quoted previously, the men became perturbed with Lot's supplications and offer of his daughters to replace the visitors. As a result, they further decided to do to Lot as was intended for the male visitors. You are guessing what was intended. The word for 'know' in the bible is used as a reference to sex less than 20 times out of the 950 times it is used. Have you considered that they were afraid of spies amd thought Lot was hiding them?I never read anything about gang rape in the bible. Personally, I believe the story is a myth and never happened. But when myths like this are used to discriminate against people and used to support the god fearing people who have no problem with hurting others because they believe that "the bible says so" it is important that everyone is absolutely certain that the translation and meaning assigned is correct.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Oct 12, 2014 14:00:48 GMT -5
I am not saying that was not the case. It does not mean they were all homosexuals. It does not mean any of them were. It means they were they were not righteous. Perhaps very inhospitable to strangers. How could a city composed of only homosexuals survive? Having children is pretty much the only growth path. The bible never mentions homosexuality in regard to Sodom. The bible never mentions rape in regard to Sodom. The only one talking about sex is Lot when he offered his virgin daughters to the crowd, the same ones that he later impregnated. And the word 'know' does not always mean sex. It is used over 950 times in the bible and less than 15 places does it mean in a sexual way. There is a lot amiss with this story and the crowd asking to know the strangers is only the tip of the problems. MANY of the translations translated "KNOW them" means having sexual intercourse.
Gen 19:5 They called out to Lot and asked, “Where are the men who came to visit you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!” That quote is NOT according to the King James Version.
Genesis 19:5
King James Version.
"And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."
- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Oct 12, 2014 14:11:17 GMT -5
The problems with translation are difficult.
When people begin to use words of their own creation that aren't even in a certain part of the bible, such as "gang rape," it becomes even more difficult to be accurate.
|
|
|
Post by irvinegrey on Oct 12, 2014 14:16:59 GMT -5
Without equivocation we can say from Scripture that Jesus Christ would not condone or legitimise same sex marriage. However, Christians must learn that same sex practice is no different than any other sin and unless repented of will come under the wrath of God. Therefore we must reach out to those engaging in homosexual practices as we reach out to others engaged in sinful activities and give them hope that they can know redemption because of what Christ did for them at Calvary. While we can use many Scriptures the most significant one is: [9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV) Here we have the list and then the past tense, ‘and such were some of you’ but they have been changed by, ‘But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.’ The good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that it always gives the sinner hope for it is the power of God for salvation. Romans 1:16 All of which is good reason for one to take what one reads in the Bible with a giant grain of salt, and to fear, counter, suppress, and advocate and legislate vigorously against those who believe in a literal application thereof. You and your kind, my dear sir, but for a cultural tide against you, would be waging an ISIS-like war against those who do not believe as you do. My basis for that assertion? Look at history. Your Christian lot have done no less in your past. I am not in the least bit influenced by the cultural tide nor do I take the Bible with a grain of salt. It is because of my respect of the Bible as the word of God I am prepared to contend for the truths contained therein. While we know from the Bible that ‘all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’ we also know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ offers men and women hope of deliverance through what Jesus Christ did at Calvary. As to waging an ISIS style war against those who live contrary to the Word of God I view as totally unbiblical. The early church we read of in the Book of Acts did not go into blind panic and organise protests when things were not going their way – they prayed and that is what I urge every born again believer to do. I continue to believe that God remains in control and answers prayer.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Oct 12, 2014 14:52:01 GMT -5
All of which is good reason for one to take what one reads in the Bible with a giant grain of salt, and to fear, counter, suppress, and advocate and legislate vigorously against those who believe in a literal application thereof. You and your kind, my dear sir, but for a cultural tide against you, would be waging an ISIS-like war against those who do not believe as you do. My basis for that assertion? Look at history. Your Christian lot have done no less in your past. I am not in the least bit influenced by the cultural tide nor do I take the Bible with a grain of salt. It is because of my respect of the Bible as the word of God I am prepared to contend for the truths contained therein. While we know from the Bible that ‘all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’ we also know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ offers men and women hope of deliverance through what Jesus Christ did at Calvary. As to waging an ISIS style war against those who live contrary to the Word of God I view as totally unbiblical. The early church we read of in the Book of Acts did not go into blind panic and organise protests when things were not going their way – they prayed and that is what I urge every born again believer to do. I continue to believe that God remains in control and answers prayer. Mr. Grey, here is what you said:10 Oct 2014 at 16:52 irvinegrey said: "Without equivocation we can say from Scripture that Jesus Christ would not condone or legitimise same sex marriage.
Mr. Grey! You simply CAN NOT "Without equivocation" say what Jesus Christ would or would not have done!
There are simply NO words of Jesus Christ himself in the scripture saying anything about same sex marriage!
You are simply putting words in his mouth that he never said!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 15:15:28 GMT -5
Rational ~ As I quoted previously, the men became perturbed with Lot's supplications and offer of his daughters to replace the visitors. As a result, they further decided to do to Lot as was intended for the male visitors. You are guessing what was intended. The word for 'know' in the bible is used as a reference to sex less than 20 times out of the 950 times it is used. Have you considered that they were afraid of spies amd thought Lot was hiding them?I never read anything about gang rape in the bible. Personally, I believe the story is a myth and never happened. But when myths like this are used to discriminate against people and used to support the god fearing people who have no problem with hurting others because they believe that "the bible says so" it is important that everyone is absolutely certain that the translation and meaning assigned is correct. Rational ~ It was the reference to their violently attacking Lot and claiming to do worse to him, when he wouldn't comply with their wishes. I guessed they had unseemly intentions, such as gang rape or serious violence by Lot's reference to their wicked intentions? However, I'm not convinced this was a myth myself, due to archaeological findings I have read about regarding this location in the world and historical videos I have seen. However, I'm not totally convinced myself either and have wondered about the same on occasion? One thing for sure, the word "sodomy" comes from reference to this place back in time and is associated with homosexuality today. Here's one of those archaeological videos I saw in the past regarding Sodom.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFaqBjwcC_0
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 15:40:01 GMT -5
Rational ~ Here's an excerpt from Genesis 19, AMP Version, which describes this incident in which all the men of the Sodom, young and old, surrounded Lot's house and demanded he bring out the two male visitors out for them to know them. However, after reading John McArthur's commentary regarding this chapter and the reference .
Here are a few other interesting beliefs of John F. MacArthur "John F. MacArthur advocates young-earth creationism.
He is also an advocate of Nouthetic Counseling, which stresses the Bible as a sufficient tool for counseling people with mental illnesses such as depression and anxiety. MacArthur does not reject all forms of psychological theories and techniques, though he considers some psychology and psychiatry as contrary to the Bible." from wiki
That rather gives a bit of perspective on how much one can trust John F. MacArthur beliefs.
DMG ~ I'm not a big fan of John MacArthur myself due to some of his leanings and teachings. However, it was his reference to epistle of Jude and how it applied to Sodom and Gomorrah, that I found interesting. I was quoting from the words of a "gay Christian" who brought this subject up in the first place. They found it a bit strange that a conservative Calvinist, like John MacArthur, would make such a statement and quoted him in support of their argument. He seems to be a good expository Bible preacher , but I don't like some of his criticisms and judgments regarding others within the Christian faith. I heard enough of critical judgments about other Christians within the 2x2's to last a lifetime!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 15:50:10 GMT -5
Regarding the proscribing of same sex marriage in the Bible, a little common sense and reasoning needs to be applied in reading the following words from Jesus.
Matthew 19.4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read , that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.
19.5 And said. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh."
It is clear to me that God made man to have heterosexual relationships only, with a spouse in a marital relationship. Any other relationship is of the fallen, sinful nature which Satan introduced to corrupt God's ways.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 16:06:22 GMT -5
Regarding the proscribing of same sex marriage in the Bible, a little common sense and reasoning needs to be applied in reading the following words from Jesus. Matthew 19.4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read , that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.
19.5 And said. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh." It is clear to me that God made man to have heterosexual relationships only, with a spouse in a marital relationship. Any other relationship is of the fallen, sinful nature which Satan introduced to corrupt God's ways. I agree with you.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 16:15:14 GMT -5
Regarding the proscribing of same sex marriage in the Bible, a little common sense and reasoning needs to be applied in reading the following words from Jesus. Matthew 19.4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read , that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.
19.5 And said. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh."
It is clear to me that God made man to have heterosexual relationships only, with a spouse in a marital relationship. Any other relationship is of the fallen, sinful nature which Satan introduced to corrupt God's ways. Ram ~ Now that's two verses that are hard to beat when it comes to same-sex marriage being considered acceptable to Bible standards. However, I have no problem with gay people wanting to live together as companions or being joined in marriage, if they truly love one another. Maybe it's not the Bible version of marriage, but it's still a consenting monogamous relationship between two consenting adults who want to be in each other's lives. It may not be my cup of tea, but I have no problem with gays living their lives according to their sexual preference due to their inherited genes. Since God designed us within our mother's womb, according to Psalm 139, I'm sure nothing about our make-up is news to him anyway?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+139
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 16:25:06 GMT -5
That quote is NOT according to the King James Version.
Genesis 19:5
King James Version.
"And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."
- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition
Here are other translations on the same verse Gen 19:51) Genesis 19:5 International Standard Version (ISV) They called out to Lot and asked, “Where are the men who came to visit you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!”2) Genesis 19:5 Living Bible (TLB) and shouted to Lot, “Bring out those men to us so we can rape them.”3) Genesis 19:5 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE) They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.” 4) Genesis 19:5 New International Version (NIV) They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”5) Genesis 19:5 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the anashim which came in to thee halailah (this night)? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them [carnally].Genesis 19:5 World English Bible (WEB) They called to Lot, and said to him, “Where are the men who came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may have sex with them.”
Gang raped... How many men and boys were in Sodom and Gomorrah cities? Gen 19:5 They called out to Lot and asked, “Where are the men who came to visit you tonight? Bring them out to us so WE can have sex with them!”They said, " Bring them out to US so that "WE can have SEX with them (Lot's two visitors!) " That was VERY detestable in the sight of God. Nathan ~ Good point! I got the same impression along with the author of this article who cites all the uses of the word "know" in relation to sexual relations. He's a little flippant in his opinions, but I'm sure you can overlook his personal views and just check out the verses as found within the entire Bible, including Genesis 19:5-8 referenced above.
www.biblestudysite.com/answers15.htm#5
Question #5 ~ How do we 'know' that the word "knew" in Hebrew (yada`) means "sexual intercourse?"
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 16:45:40 GMT -5
God destroyed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah cities, because there were No righteous/good person to be found, except Lot, his 2 daughters and his wife, who turned into a pillar of Salt for looking back at the destruction. I am not saying that was not the case. It does not mean they were all homosexuals. It does not mean any of them were. It means they were they were not righteous. Perhaps very inhospitable to strangers. How could a city composed of only homosexuals survive? Having children is pretty much the only growth path. The bible never mentions homosexuality in regard to Sodom. The bible never mentions rape in regard to Sodom. The only one talking about sex is Lot when he offered his virgin daughters to the crowd, the same ones that he later impregnated. And the word 'know' does not always mean sex. It is used over 950 times in the bible and less than 15 places does it mean in a sexual way. There is a lot amiss with this story and the crowd asking to know the strangers is only the tip of the problems. Rational ~ I don't disagree with your figures above, but Genesis 19:5-8, just happens to be one of these places where the word is referring to a sexual manner according to this article, which shows all of these references throughout the Bible.
www.biblestudysite.com/answers15.htm#5
Question #5 ~ How do we 'know' that the word "knew" in Hebrew (yada`) means "sexual intercourse?"
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 17:25:49 GMT -5
Rational ~ It was the reference to their violently attacking Lot and claiming to do worse to him, when he wouldn't comply with their wishes. I guessed they had unseemly intentions, such as gang rape or serious violence by Lot's reference to their wicked intentions? You keep inserting "gang rape" (no pun intended) but there is nothing in the bible to suggest that. Wicked intentions could have been gouging out Lot's eyes.And the angels?Wouldn't be the first time a biblical reference was wrong.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Oct 12, 2014 17:27:41 GMT -5
Ram ~ Now that's two verses that are hard to beat when it comes to same-sex marriage being considered acceptable to God. However, I have no problem with people wanting to live together as companions or being joined in marriage, if they truly love one another, gay or not. Maybe it's not the Bible version of marriage, but it's still a consenting monogamous relationship between two consenting adults who want to be in each other's lives. It may not be my cup of tea, but I have no problem with gays living their lives according to their sexual preference due to their inherited genes. Since God designed us within our mother's womb, according to Psalm 139, I'm sure nothing about our make-up is news to him? If that was the case, God should have created Adam, Steve and Eve in the Garden, Faune. ;)but he didn't. We all know what God said about homosexuality in the Old Testament, and the apostles teach in the New Testament and in the book of Revelation. Nathan, We also all know what God said about many other things in the bible!
God also said to kill everyone of some nations, even to the suckling infant, except to save the virgins for themselves!
Often the same people who are so judgmental & self rightious in using the OT to denounce consensual gay sex are the same ones who completely ignore other parts of the same OT.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 17:29:30 GMT -5
They said, " Bring them out to US so that "WE can have SEX with them (Lot's two visitors!) " That was VERY detestable in the sight of God. Come on NathanB! The are more translation that use 'know' than sex. For some reason you want Sodom to ne a city where all the men and boys are homosexuals and want to attack and have sex with two individuals. What do you think about the females in the city? All homosexuals? Where did the young boys come from?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 17:35:37 GMT -5
Regarding the proscribing of same sex marriage in the Bible, a little common sense and reasoning needs to be applied in reading the following words from Jesus. Matthew 19.4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read , that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.
19.5 And said. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh."
It is clear to me that God made man to have heterosexual relationships only, with a spouse in a marital relationship. Any other relationship is of the fallen, sinful nature which Satan introduced to corrupt God's ways. Ram ~ Now that's two verses that are hard to beat when it comes to same-sex marriage being considered acceptable to Bible standards. However, I have no problem with gay people wanting to live together as companions or being joined in marriage, if they truly love one another. Maybe it's not the Bible version of marriage, but it's still a consenting monogamous relationship between two consenting adults who want to be in each other's lives. It may not be my cup of tea, but I have no problem with gays living their lives according to their sexual preference due to their inherited genes. Since God designed us within our mother's womb, according to Psalm 139, I'm sure nothing about our make-up is news to him anyway?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+139
God created man for HIS pleasure not ours. Man was created to glorify God through obedience to his word ans living Godly lives. Any gene aberrations are of Satan which followed on from mans' fall.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 17:46:14 GMT -5
God created man for HIS pleasure not ours. Man was created to glorify God through obedience to his word ans living Godly lives. Any gene aberrations are of Satan which followed on from mans' fall. The genetic structure of humans has been altered by Satan? What about the alterations that produced individuals who had a better probability of surviving?
|
|
|
Post by faune on Oct 12, 2014 18:23:29 GMT -5
God created man for HIS pleasure not ours. Man was created to glorify God through obedience to his word ans living Godly lives. Any gene aberrations are of Satan which followed on from mans' fall. The genetic structure of humans has been altered by Satan? What about the alterations that produced individuals who had a better probability of surviving? Rational ~ Well, I was referring myself to the genetic information I have read in the past regarding gays and scientific findings along these areas in recent years. Therefore, if God takes responsibility for how we are knit together within the womb, I wonder how Satan would come into the equation here? I thought he was more an outside influence upon our lives and not involved in our genetics? However, I do realize that some people do choose the gay lifestyle just to be different, and it probably has nothing to do with genetic inheritance, but they don't usually remain that way all their lives. It's more like a phase they're passing through in life. However, I'm well aware of what the Bible teaches along these lines and also in regards to marriage. But, like DMG brought out earlier, the Bible also teaches some other things in the O.T. that we wouldn't think of doing today because we would consider them highly immoral, but they were practiced in Old Testament times and acceptable within their ancient society. I guess that's just another one of those contradictions in scripture that causes a lot of AHA moments when we read what the Bible actually says? One such teaching in Leviticus has to do with "stoning our children to death" for being rebellious! Now how many parents would you think would condone such a thing today? Here's just a sampling from the Old Testament of what the Israelites claimed to do in God's Name. None of it is pretty or would be considered moral behavior by today's standards. JMT
www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm
DMG shared...
|
|
|
Post by applesandbacon on Oct 12, 2014 18:26:58 GMT -5
No gang rape in the bible? Try Judges 19.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Oct 12, 2014 19:15:11 GMT -5
They said, " Bring them out to US so that "WE can have SEX with them (Lot's two visitors!) " That was VERY detestable in the sight of God. Come on NathanB! The are more translation that use 'know' than sex. For some reason you want Sodom to ne a city where all the men and boys are homosexuals and want to attack and have sex with two individuals. What do you think about the females in the city? All homosexuals? Where did the young boys come from? The boys could easily have come from men who have sex with men and also have sex with women and produce offspring. I know more than a handful of gay men who at some point in their lives had sex with women and produced little critters. And, BTW, there's a whole sub-culture of men -- African Americans, in particular -- who do not identify as gay but do identify as "men who have sex with men" -- and may have sex with women as well. That's one reason you see AIDS outreach and HIV prevention outreach explicitly targeted in some cases to "men who have sex with men, sex workers, and people who share needles." Edited to add: After I wrote this I tried a Wiki search and found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_who_have_sex_with_men
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 20:25:21 GMT -5
Come on NathanB! The are more translation that use 'know' than sex. For some reason you want Sodom to ne a city where all the men and boys are homosexuals and want to attack and have sex with two individuals. What do you think about the females in the city? All homosexuals? Where did the young boys come from? The boys could easily have come from men who have sex with men and also have sex with women and produce offspring. I know more than a handful of gay men who at some point in their lives had sex with women and produced little critters. And, BTW, there's a whole sub-culture of men -- African Americans, in particular -- who do not identify as gay but do identify as "men who have sex with men" -- and may have sex with women as well. That's one reason you see AIDS outreach and HIV prevention outreach explicitly targeted in some cases to "men who have sex with men, sex workers, and people who share needles." Edited to add: After I wrote this I tried a Wiki search and found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_who_have_sex_with_menOf course that is the answer. A whole city of men who are either homosexuals or men who have sex with men and women. This is probably the most reasonable answer because it so reflects what we see in humans today.
|
|