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Post by déjà vu on Oct 3, 2014 19:07:59 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Oct 3, 2014 19:27:09 GMT -5
W.Tell ~ That was an interesting article and the author brought up a point that I never gave much thought to myself in the past, but now I can see it in a new light. Honestly, I never could find anything that Jesus said that actually condemned homosexuality; however, in Paul's epistles there are definitely references that would be interpreted a such along with the Old Testament. However, I have always felt that homosexuals are born that way and don't choose it as a lifestyle later on in adulthood. Maybe some might do this for a time, but those who truly are gay I feel were aware of this from a young age and probably before puberty? That's one reason why I feel we need not judge people because of their sexual preference, especially if they are born gay and have no control over their sexual pre-disposition from birth. I also have no problem with people who are gay desiring the union of marriage, if they want to commit to one another in this way. After all, marriage is a choice ~ for better or worse ~ and people should have a right to engage in such, if they so desire as U.S. citizens here at home. Also, we are talking about a personal preference and not some political issue, although politicians would try and make it one along with some fundamentalists groups. JMT
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Post by Gene on Oct 3, 2014 19:30:09 GMT -5
Of course he would not have, if you're asking about the Jesus of 30 AD who was a practicing Jew. If you're asking about a fictional present-day Jesus, that's another matter.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 19:52:25 GMT -5
no he wouldn't...we all know the verses against homosexual activity so i wont post them again...we know he was against sexual immorality...what was immoral? those things listed in leviticus. what was in leviticus? i think we know that dont we? you shouldn't really throw out these spiritual handgrenades and then run w.tell...
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Post by Gene on Oct 3, 2014 19:55:40 GMT -5
As it turns out, City Hall told Baer and me that we didn't need Jesus' approval to get married, so we didn't ask for it
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Post by xna on Oct 3, 2014 20:10:08 GMT -5
no he wouldn't...we all know the verses against homosexual activity so i wont post them again...we know he was against sexual immorality...what was immoral? those things listed in leviticus. what was in leviticus? i think we know that dont we? you should really throw out these spiritual handgrenades and then run w.tell... Gay marriage - No Way - That's immoral !!! Beating your sex slave within an inch of her life? That's moral !!! "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
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Post by xna on Oct 3, 2014 20:49:49 GMT -5
~ Gnelson2 I heard that from mother superior - so to speak.
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Post by Gene on Oct 3, 2014 20:55:05 GMT -5
~ Gnelson2 I heard that from mother superior - so to speak. I think I saw Mother Superior perform one evening at a small café in the East Village. She was joined by Miss Formica Dinette that particular evening. Quite a show, those two!
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Post by xna on Oct 3, 2014 20:58:14 GMT -5
~ Gnelson2 I heard that from mother superior - so to speak. I think I saw Mother Superior perform one evening at a small café in the East Village. She was joined by Miss Formica Dinette that particular evening. Quite a show, those two! I'm sure it was better than The Splinter Group I saw in Bangkok.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 21:20:14 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 4, 2014 9:46:51 GMT -5
I get from the scriptures that homosexual activity would not be approved of or blessed by Jesus, however, I also see Jesus dealing with accusers of the issue against someone the same way he dealt with the woman taken in the act of adultery. He would just say to them, "you who have no sin, may throw the first stone at them...." I firmly believe that Jesus is saying this to all of us...let us operate in this life with love for our neighbors and allow the just Judge do the judging when the Judgment Day has come...it isn't necessary to judge before that time.....If we're being "God-fearing people," We're being God-loving people!
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Post by blacksheep on Oct 4, 2014 11:39:28 GMT -5
Do the workers perform ANY wedding ceremonies before the congregation? (They didn't during my 2fer sojourn.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 11:49:59 GMT -5
Do the workers perform ANY wedding ceremonies before the congregation? (They didn't during my 2fer sojourn.) not that i am aware of....
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Post by faune on Oct 4, 2014 12:03:03 GMT -5
I get from the scriptures that homosexual activity would not be approved of or blessed by Jesus, however, I also see Jesus dealing with accusers of the issue against someone the same way he dealt with the woman taken in the act of adultery. He would just say to them, "you who have no sin, may throw the first stone at them...." I firmly believe that Jesus is saying this to all of us...let us operate in this life with love for our neighbors and allow the just Judge do the judging when the Judgment Day has come...it isn't necessary to judge before that time.....If we're being "God-fearing people," We're being God-loving people! STR ~ I believe you summed up Jesus' opinion on such things found within the gospel accounts quite well. He also encouraged people to examine their own lives and to make needed changes where necessary, like the woman taken in adultery. However, the scripture reference that W.Tell presented about those who were eunuchs from birth, found in Matthew 19:11-12, does give us pause to consider due to the different translations for the word of eunuch, IMHO? Also, since gay men were recorded within the early book of Genesis, I feel it was apparent in Jesus' day, too, along with the practice of rendering servants as eunuchs by partial castration.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
www.cnn.com/2014/10/03/opinion/parini-would-jesus-be-ok-with-gay-marriage/index.html?hpt=hp_c3
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Post by matisse on Oct 4, 2014 12:03:19 GMT -5
Do the workers perform ANY wedding ceremonies before the congregation? (They didn't during my 2fer sojourn.) not that i am aware of.... Maybe not workers, but I am aware of at least one 2x2 elder who officiates at weddings "by the power vested" by the government.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:04:18 GMT -5
I get from the scriptures that homosexual activity would not be approved of or blessed by Jesus, however, I also see Jesus dealing with accusers of the issue against someone the same way he dealt with the woman taken in the act of adultery. He would just say to them, "you who have no sin, may throw the first stone at them...." I firmly believe that Jesus is saying this to all of us...let us operate in this life with love for our neighbors and allow the just Judge do the judging when the Judgment Day has come...it isn't necessary to judge before that time.....If we're being "God-fearing people," We're being God-loving people! Yes, I go along with that line of thought. In the case of the woman caught in adultery, the accusers brought her to Jesus because they wanted to stone her to death as the the custom was at that time. Jesus, said ok he who is without sin let him cast the first stone; of course they had all sinned so they could not cast a stone, they just walked away.Jesus,who was stooping at the time writing on the ground, eventually got up and noticing they had all left ,He asked her for her accusers, hasn't anyone accused you? and she said no one had, and He said to her "neither do I, but go and sin no more." I suppose the important message there was it was not the time for judgement but to go and sin no more because if she did continue to sin, the time/day of judgement would come at the appointed time. So the message seems to be, if you are living in sin, stop, ask for forgiveness and go sin no more.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:08:10 GMT -5
not that i am aware of.... Maybe not workers, but I am aware of at least one 2x2 elder who officiates at weddings "by the power vested" by the government. thats interesting, i've always understood it to be no one in the truth wishes to officiate incase something should go wrong with the marriage...
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Post by eyedeetentee on Oct 4, 2014 12:19:07 GMT -5
Well, that's easy enough; stop sinning and never sin again in that particular arena. How has that worked so far? Have you ever repeated a sin? If so, you flat out ignored a direct order. Is it okay to ignore god directives? Only those you pick and choose, right? A little white lie is not the same as a lie. It's okay if you break the speed limit by three, just don't go seven over. Since you don't agree with that one certain man-made law (whatever it may be), you don't have to abide by it. Hating your neighbor is okay because he wronged you. Checking out the ankles of that young filly is fine since you are not REALLY lusting.
Oh, but wait, you can sin all you want since all your sins were forgiven. Yeah, what was I thinking? Go and sin some more.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:23:32 GMT -5
not that i am aware of.... Maybe not workers, but I am aware of at least one 2x2 elder who officiates at weddings "by the power vested" by the government. What!!! Powers vested in an elder but not in a worker?? are elders registered? If so under what circumstances, is he classified as a minister/ pastor? I know that it is possible for couples to get married in the UK by a Registrar in an official Registry office.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:31:40 GMT -5
I get from the scriptures that homosexual activity would not be approved of or blessed by Jesus, ! STR, I would be interested to know how you came to that conclusion. I read of nothing that the biblical Jesus said that was either for or against homosexuality. It isn’t even clear whether Jesus was homosexual or heterosexual. Jesus could well have been a homosexual – there is no evidence to show that he was more attracted to women than he was to men. For all we know he could have had a gay lover as a young man – we read of nothing of his life between the ages of 12 and 30. Could this have been the reason the details of his life during this period were left out? As to the question of whether Jesus would OK gay marriage, it is unclear whether the question relates to (a) would the Jesus we read of in the Bible have been OK with gay marriage 2,000 years ago or (b) would the Jesus that was around 2,000 years ago be OK with gay marriage today. The first scenario (a) is about as relevant as the question of whether Jesus would OK McDonalds, would Jesus OK intensive ostrich farming or would Jesus OK out of town shopping centres. I am quite sure that the biblical Jesus had no view on any of these things as the concepts were not around. As to the second scenario (b) if Jesus was around today, he wouldn’t be the same Jesus as was around 2,000 years ago. I’m quite sure that he would be a much more modern version, one who wouldn’t ride around on a donkey, wouldn’t have an issue with eating shellfish on a Saturday and one who wouldn’t believe it was sinful to engage in an act of trimming one’s beard. We just don’t know what a 21st century Jesus would be like or how he would view homosexuality. His views may have changed with the times. The question is therefore an absurd one. It is clear that even the absence of a meaningful question doesn’t prevent people answering it. Of course what people generally do is answer based on their own view of Jesus, the Jesus they have created in their own mind, the Jesus which reflects their own values, prejudices and wishful thinking, the Jesus who in one man’s mind frowns upon television but in another’s has no issues with it. And irrespective of what version of Jesus is being put forward, it is inevitably a Jesus whose views are supported by carefully chosen passages of scripture ….. scripture which can be used to support just about anything. Matt10
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Post by matisse on Oct 4, 2014 12:38:07 GMT -5
Maybe not workers, but I am aware of at least one 2x2 elder who officiates at weddings "by the power vested" by the government. What!!! Powers vested in an elder but not a in worker?? are elders registered? If so under what circumstances, is he classified as a minister/ pastor? I know that it is possible for couples to get married in the UK by a Registrar in an official Registry office. I am very curious myself, but have never asked directly. He has officiated at the weddings of grandchildren. I do not know if he has practiced outside of his immediate family.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:47:13 GMT -5
What!!! Powers vested in an elder but not a in worker?? are elders registered? If so under what circumstances, is he classified as a minister/ pastor? I know that it is possible for couples to get married in the UK by a Registrar in an official Registry office. I am very curious myself, but have never asked directly. He has officiated at the weddings of grandchildren. I do not know if he has practiced outside of his immediate family. Well it sounds unusual, but he must be Authorised in some way ( probably as a Justice of the Peace) because he would have to issue marriage certificates officially that are recognized in law; in some jurisdictions "common law marriages" are recognized.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:48:43 GMT -5
What!!! Powers vested in an elder but not a in worker?? are elders registered? If so under what circumstances, is he classified as a minister/ pastor? I know that it is possible for couples to get married in the UK by a Registrar in an official Registry office. I am very curious myself, but have never asked directly. He has officiated at the weddings of grandchildren. I do not know if he has practiced outside of his immediate family. In Ca, anyone (I'm sure there are a few exception clauses, however) can obtain a 'for one marriage only' license, which would be 'powers vested by the government.' A number of elders out here have performed the ceremony for 2x2 folks.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 12:56:30 GMT -5
Ok, the Canadian jurisdiction allows it. That clarifies the position.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 4, 2014 16:26:43 GMT -5
I get from the scriptures that homosexual activity would not be approved of or blessed by Jesus, however, I also see Jesus dealing with accusers of the issue against someone the same way he dealt with the woman taken in the act of adultery. He would just say to them, "you who have no sin, may throw the first stone at them...." I firmly believe that Jesus is saying this to all of us...let us operate in this life with love for our neighbors and allow the just Judge do the judging when the Judgment Day has come...it isn't necessary to judge before that time.....If we're being "God-fearing people," We're being God-loving people! STR ~ I believe you summed up Jesus' opinion on such things found within the gospel accounts quite well. He also encouraged people to examine their own lives and to make needed changes where necessary, like the woman taken in adultery. However, the scripture reference that W.Tell presented about those who were eunuchs from birth, found in Matthew 19:11-12, does give us pause to consider due to the different translations for the word of eunuch, IMHO? Also, since gay men were recorded within the early book of Genesis, I feel it was apparent in Jesus' day, too, along with the practice of rendering servants as eunuchs by partial castration.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
www.cnn.com/2014/10/03/opinion/parini-would-jesus-be-ok-with-gay-marriage/index.html?hpt=hp_c3
I feel perhaps to use the words Jesus spoke about eunuchs and how they become eunuchs are NOT to be taken as consideration in accordance to whether homosexual relationships are a-ok! For it doesn't say that at all....What Jesus was speaking about was the fact that some people make themselves "eunuchs for the sake of the gospel" and that some are born as such, some are made as such by other men, etc....this was Jesus speaking to the fact of what some people feel is the ultimate sacrifice for their religious beliefs and services. IMO I'm not certain how much sexual activity that real eunuchs are into for without the hormonal drive, likely not too much...though likely they all will seek to socialize with people who are the same as themselves! But this can be far from a sexual relationship!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 4, 2014 16:37:15 GMT -5
I get from the scriptures that homosexual activity would not be approved of or blessed by Jesus, ! STR, I would be interested to know how you came to that conclusion. I read of nothing that the biblical Jesus said that was either for or against homosexuality. It isn’t even clear whether Jesus was homosexual or heterosexual. Jesus could well have been a homosexual – there is no evidence to show that he was more attracted to women than he was to men. For all we know he could have had a gay lover as a young man – we read of nothing of his life between the ages of 12 and 30. Could this have been the reason the details of his life during this period were left out? As to the question of whether Jesus would OK gay marriage, it is unclear whether the question relates to (a) would the Jesus we read of in the Bible have been OK with gay marriage 2,000 years ago or (b) would the Jesus that was around 2,000 years ago be OK with gay marriage today. The first scenario (a) is about as relevant as the question of whether Jesus would OK McDonalds, would Jesus OK intensive ostrich farming or would Jesus OK out of town shopping centres. I am quite sure that the biblical Jesus had no view on any of these things as the concepts were not around. As to the second scenario (b) if Jesus was around today, he wouldn’t be the same Jesus as was around 2,000 years ago. I’m quite sure that he would be a much more modern version, one who wouldn’t ride around on a donkey, wouldn’t have an issue with eating shellfish on a Saturday and one who wouldn’t believe it was sinful to engage in an act of trimming one’s beard. We just don’t know what a 21st century Jesus would be like or how he would view homosexuality. His views may have changed with the times. The question is therefore an absurd one. It is clear that even the absence of a meaningful question doesn’t prevent people answering it. Of course what people generally do is answer based on their own view of Jesus, the Jesus they have created in their own mind, the Jesus which reflects their own values, prejudices and wishful thinking, the Jesus who in one man’s mind frowns upon television but in another’s has no issues with it. And irrespective of what version of Jesus is being put forward, it is inevitably a Jesus whose views are supported by carefully chosen passages of scripture ….. scripture which can be used to support just about anything. Matt10 As we usually think Jesus sticking to the scriptures for his beliefs, we can be sure of this one... Gen.2:24 "23The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." 24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." And according to the way women and men are made, only can one man and one woman become one....at a time! Otherwise perhaps we would see more people with both sets of sexual apparatus.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 4, 2014 16:41:03 GMT -5
STR, I would be interested to know how you came to that conclusion. I read of nothing that the biblical Jesus said that was either for or against homosexuality. It isn’t even clear whether Jesus was homosexual or heterosexual. Jesus could well have been a homosexual – there is no evidence to show that he was more attracted to women than he was to men. For all we know he could have had a gay lover as a young man – we read of nothing of his life between the ages of 12 and 30. Could this have been the reason the details of his life during this period were left out? As to the question of whether Jesus would OK gay marriage, it is unclear whether the question relates to (a) would the Jesus we read of in the Bible have been OK with gay marriage 2,000 years ago or (b) would the Jesus that was around 2,000 years ago be OK with gay marriage today. The first scenario (a) is about as relevant as the question of whether Jesus would OK McDonalds, would Jesus OK intensive ostrich farming or would Jesus OK out of town shopping centres. I am quite sure that the biblical Jesus had no view on any of these things as the concepts were not around. As to the second scenario (b) if Jesus was around today, he wouldn’t be the same Jesus as was around 2,000 years ago. I’m quite sure that he would be a much more modern version, one who wouldn’t ride around on a donkey, wouldn’t have an issue with eating shellfish on a Saturday and one who wouldn’t believe it was sinful to engage in an act of trimming one’s beard. We just don’t know what a 21st century Jesus would be like or how he would view homosexuality. His views may have changed with the times. The question is therefore an absurd one. It is clear that even the absence of a meaningful question doesn’t prevent people answering it. Of course what people generally do is answer based on their own view of Jesus, the Jesus they have created in their own mind, the Jesus which reflects their own values, prejudices and wishful thinking, the Jesus who in one man’s mind frowns upon television but in another’s has no issues with it. And irrespective of what version of Jesus is being put forward, it is inevitably a Jesus whose views are supported by carefully chosen passages of scripture ….. scripture which can be used to support just about anything. Matt10 As we usually think Jesus sticking to the scriptures for his beliefs, we can be sure of this one... Gen.2:24 "23The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." 24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." And according to the way women and men are made, only can one man and one woman become one....at a time! Otherwise perhaps we would see more people with both sets of sexual apparatus. To think think that a modern day Jesus would have differing thoughst and acceptance on some issues is not according to the bible either, is it? Doesn't it say about Jesus that he is the same yesterday, to day and forever?"
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Post by matisse on Oct 4, 2014 17:23:10 GMT -5
I am very curious myself, but have never asked directly. He has officiated at the weddings of grandchildren. I do not know if he has practiced outside of his immediate family. In Ca, anyone (I'm sure there are a few exception clauses, however) can obtain a 'for one marriage only' license, which would be 'powers vested by the government.' A number of elders out here have performed the ceremony for 2x2 folks. This is in Washington State.
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