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Post by déjà vu on Aug 12, 2014 22:58:08 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 0:55:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you want from this thread.
The first site is about the tragedy of Robin Williams death.
Are you saying that Robin Williams was an Atheist?
Since the other two sites posted are Christian religious sites, why should non-Christians give them any credence?
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Post by Mary on Aug 13, 2014 1:44:08 GMT -5
How do you know that they later 2 are Christan. I see the first of the 2 are relgious but cannot find that they are Christian although there are some posts by Christians. Most are about philosophy or the philosophy of religion.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 1:49:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you want from this thread.
The first site is about the tragedy of Robin Williams death.
Are you saying that Robin Williams was an Atheist?
Since the other two sites posted are Christian religious sites, why should non-Christians give them any credence? Robin Williams was indeed an atheist. I also did not understand the point of the proposed thread. But I have a sense that atheists are far less critical of suicide than Christians for the simple reason that most Christians think people who commit suicide go to hell. Apart from being mentally ill, suicide is an extremely difficult task to carry out, but invariably the sane person who commits suicide has a reason for doing it. More frequently than acknowledged the reason is unbearable persecution. And in some societies it is a religious/ethical duty to commit suicide to atone for something you have either done or not done. Religious fanatics (yes, it's common in Christendom too) often arrange their own demise by putting themselves in situations where someone else can be blamed for their deaths -- the appeal of martyrdom. Some people are just suicidal because they are either stupid or very careless. There was a man here in Las Vegas who was recently elevated to the status of hero because he attempted to shoot a man who came into a WalMart carrying a gun. He was hailed as a hero for his efforts to protect everyone else in the store. The problem was, the gunman wasn't even looking to kill anyone. If the hero had left his gun in his pocket he'd still be alive, and his wife and small kids wouldn't be left destitute. True, the man who came in carrying the gun was walking away from the double murder of policemen across the street, but the hero didn't know anything about that. His real problem: he was stupid enough to think he was faster with a gun that anyone else. That's what I call suicidally stupid. Now -- off my soapbox.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 1:52:19 GMT -5
How do you know that they later 2 are Christan. I see the first of the 2 are relgious but cannot find that they are Christian although there are some posts by Christians. Most are about philosophy or the philosophy of religion. What religion do they sound like? It's all Christian rhetoric.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 4:01:01 GMT -5
I haven't seen reliable stats on this. A few points: 1. The assisted suicide or euthanasia agenda is being driven by atheists. That's not surprising. I suspect what contributes to your surprise is your lack of reliable statistics and your obvious disapproval of atheists. But then, such surprise is not surprising from anyone who thinks that the euthanasia agenda is being drive by atheists. Come on, Ross, that statement was nothing more than a flippant swap at atheists. Have you ever been to a euthanasia support group meeting? Who thought of the derogatory term "assisted suicide" anyway? Something like the supposed "death panels" Obama care was supposed to have brought into being. Euthanasia is not about cheating the creator of his right to end life -- euthanasia is more about allowing the creator to take the life, and keep the politicians and medical professionals from preserving them as breathing vegetables. I thought this comment was specifically about you.
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Post by fixit on Aug 13, 2014 5:29:51 GMT -5
I don't read anywhere in the Bible where suicide is an unforgivable sin - God understands the position that people are in, which is generally pretty desperate if they commit suicide, so I'm certainly not one of the Christians who think people who commit suicide go to hell. This comment is a bit of a generalisation. Count me out of that generalization as well. Its a bit like saying most Muslims believe jihad and martyrdom is their duty. Some are pretty keen to get to heaven though:
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Post by xna on Aug 13, 2014 5:43:36 GMT -5
Don't we say if someone goes on a mission knowing full well they will be killed, that's a "suicide mission"? Isn't this the Jesus story? So who is glorifying suicide?
Suicide should be the option of last resort when the quality of life reaches a point of no return. It's a hard to know where that line is, but that option should not be taken off the table.
JMT
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2014 10:44:35 GMT -5
Suicide is not about wanting to die, but wanting to end the pain, physical, mental and/or emotional. When someone reaches this point they have lost all hope that the endless hopelessness, emptiness and pain will ever end. Depression is a disease and suicide is a possible symptom of the disease. Cancer is a disease and death is sometimes a symptom of it. I think we under estimate the seriousness of depression and spend far to little on it and other mental illnesses. We also attach a stigma to it which makes it even harder for those who are suffering to get help. Depression also leads to other things our society frowns on like addictions. Addictions are just people trying to self medicate to feel better in a lot of cases. Addictions can lead to criminal offences and jail time. It's not something we should be downplaying the seriousness of. But as long as people believe depressed people just need to 'suck it up' and 'get over it', we will also see people saying suicide is a choice. I disagree with that belief. When someone gets to that state or that level of depression, it is no longer a choice. JMT's of course.
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Post by faune on Aug 13, 2014 11:03:16 GMT -5
Suicide is not about wanting to die, but wanting to end the pain, physical, mental and/or emotional. When someone reaches this point they have lost all hope that the endless hopelessness, emptiness and pain will ever end. Depression is a disease and suicide is a possible symptom of the disease. Cancer is a disease and death is sometimes a symptom of it. I think we under estimate the seriousness of depression and spend far to little on it and other mental illnesses. We also attach a stigma to it which makes it even harder for those who are suffering to get help. Depression also leads to other things our society frowns on like addictions. Addictions are just people trying to self medicate to feel better in a lot of cases. Addictions can lead to criminal offences and jail time. It's not something we should be downplaying the seriousness of. But as long as people believe depressed people just need to 'suck it up' and 'get over it', we will also see people saying suicide is a choice. I disagree with that belief. When someone gets to that state or that level of depression, it is no longer a choice. JMT's of course.Snow ~ I agree that when a person gets to such a place where suicide seems the only option for ending their pain, they have exhausted other options of coping in their mind. That's indeed sad, but it's a fact that when people make up their mind along these lines, they usually go through with it soon down the road. Depression can seriously affect one's over-all health and can put you into a downward spiral that is hard to recover from once in motion. Perhaps this is what happened to Robin Williams or the medical treatment just wasn't working as prescribed and made things worse? However, when anybody has reached that state of mind where they are considering ending it all for relief, they are probably hanging on by a thread, regardless of their lack of profession of faith. Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?
Honestly, I feel atheists would be more focused upon making this life count for something, especially if they don't believe in an afterlife? However, they probably would be the first to choose suicide in a hopeless situation involving much suffering? Faith in God does have its benefits when it comes to enduring suffering and pain in this life. It gives them hope of a brighter afterlife, even if this world becomes the pits, IMHO?
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Post by placid-void on Aug 13, 2014 11:12:52 GMT -5
Since the other two sites posted are Christian religious sites, why should non-Christians give them any credence? WOW! I found this statement to be chilling! Am I to understand this statement as either rational and/or open minded? Frightening and, might I add, quite unexpected on a "discussion" board. Would be interested in some sort of clarification if such a stark statement can be further clarified.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 12:43:25 GMT -5
How do you know that they later 2 are Christan. I see the first of the 2 are relgious but cannot find that they are Christian although there are some posts by Christians. Most are about philosophy or the philosophy of religion. Here is quote on the Conservapedia site CONSERVAPEDIA COMMANDMENTS
"When referencing dates based on the approximate birth of Jesus, give appropriate credit for the basis of the date (B.C. or A.D.). "BCE" and "CE" are unacceptable substitutes because they deny the historical basis.""
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 12:59:11 GMT -5
Since the other two sites posted are Christian religious sites, why should non-Christians give them any credence? WOW! I found this statement to be chilling! Am I to understand this statement as either rational and/or open minded? Frightening and, might I add, quite unexpected on a "discussion" board. Would be interested in some sort of clarification if such a stark statement can be further clarified. You are back! Great!
Maybe I should explain better. The name of this thread is Atheists Beware! Being an atheist I naturally was concerned what I needed to be aware of.
The last two sites W. Tell posted came from Christian or religious links.
That being the case, by their own belief system those sites are naturally biased against the whole idea of atheism. Therefore, how much can we depend on what they say? How much credence can those of us who non-religious, non-Christian give to their statistics?
Surely you would agree that one shouldn't believe everything on the internet can be taken as true!
Perhaps you can explain why my statement seems so chilling, frightening, & unexpected?
My "open mind" includes not only looking at the posts presented but also who or what organization is posting them.
Do you not believe that is a rational view to take?
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2014 14:45:31 GMT -5
Robin Williams was indeed an atheist. It’s difficult to know when Williams is being serious about religion or if it’s all part of the act. He now seems to identify Episcopalian–like his father–which he describes as “Catholic light: half the religion, half the guilt.”
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Post by rational on Aug 13, 2014 15:01:23 GMT -5
These all seem to be tying the higher suicide rates to males in countries with high levels of atheism but they do not say much about the beliefs of the suicide victims. Is the assumption that in a country where 30% of the people claim to be atheists that 30% of the suicide victims will also be atheists? Perhaps it is the theists, living in a country with high levels of atheism are breaking under the strain of their cognitive dissonance.
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Post by placid-void on Aug 13, 2014 15:11:44 GMT -5
Maybe I should explain better. The name of this thread is Atheists Beware! Being an atheist I naturally was concerned what I needed to be aware of.
The last two sites W. Tell posted came from Christian or religious links.
That being the case, by their own belief system those sites are naturally biased against the whole idea of atheism. Therefore, how much can we depend on what they say? How much credence can those of us who non-religious, non-Christian give to their statistics?
Surely you would agree that one shouldn't believe everything on the internet can be taken as true!
Perhaps you can explain why my statement seems so chilling, frightening, & unexpected?
My "open mind" includes not only looking at the posts presented but also who or what organization is posting them.
Do you not believe that is a rational view to take?
I can only say that I am glad that I did not choose “belief system” as one of my selection criterion when choosing which authors of The Western Canon to consider credible.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 15:15:40 GMT -5
I haven't seen reliable stats on this. A few points: 1. The assisted suicide or euthanasia agenda is being driven by atheists. That's not surprising. 2. Depression can be a debilitating illness and can afflict anyone - Christians and atheists alike. 3. Fair to say that Christians believe that their Creator has the right to end life - so they are probably less likely to consider suicide. However, a mental illness can easily change this. 4. I don't read anywhere in the Bible where suicide is an unforgivable sin - God understands the position that people are in, which is generally pretty desperate if they commit suicide, so I'm certainly not one of the Christians who think people who commit suicide go to hell. This comment is a bit of a generalisation. Ross, Where is your proof of this statement? "1. The assisted suicide or euthanasia agenda is being driven by atheists."
Over 20 years ago when I first joined a group to advocate the the right to choose when one dies, (euthanasia) the group consisted of mostly religious people.
Do you have different stats for the present ? Or is that comment just another backhanded slap at atheists?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 15:33:30 GMT -5
Maybe I should explain better. The name of this thread is Atheists Beware! Being an atheist I naturally was concerned what I needed to be aware of.
The last two sites W. Tell posted came from Christian or religious links.
That being the case, by their own belief system those sites are naturally biased against the whole idea of atheism. Therefore, how much can we depend on what they say? How much credence can those of us who non-religious, non-Christian give to their statistics?
Surely you would agree that one shouldn't believe everything on the internet can be taken as true!
Perhaps you can explain why my statement seems so chilling, frightening, & unexpected?
My "open mind" includes not only looking at the posts presented but also who or what organization is posting them.
Do you not believe that is a rational view to take?
I can only say that I am glad that I did not choose “belief system” as one of my selection criterion when choosing which authors of "The Western Canon" to consider credible. ehum...Do you consider peoples "belief systems" have no influence on the books of the "The Western Canon" & culture that they speak of throughout the history of mankind?
Don't you consider the authors views according to their own "belief systems" could be skewed by their "belief systems?"
Or do you take those books as credible without any consideration as to the author's "belief system" on your part ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 15:39:34 GMT -5
I wonder if the fact that Robin Williams was an atheist was the reason, "Robin Williams' daughter Zelda is taking a break from social media after she was sent hurtful messages about the death of her father."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 16:22:09 GMT -5
Robin Williams was indeed an atheist. It’s difficult to know when Williams is being serious about religion or if it’s all part of the act. He now seems to identify Episcopalian–like his father–which he describes as “Catholic light: half the religion, half the guilt.” Change is for was and seemed for now seems? Or do you know something the rest of us don't Rational?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 16:27:05 GMT -5
I haven't seen reliable stats on this. A few points: 1. The assisted suicide or euthanasia agenda is being driven by atheists. That's not surprising.2. Depression can be a debilitating illness and can afflict anyone - Christians and atheists alike. 3. Fair to say that Christians believe that their Creator has the right to end life - so they are probably less likely to consider suicide. However, a mental illness can easily change this. 4. I don't read anywhere in the Bible where suicide is an unforgivable sin - God understands the position that people are in, which is generally pretty desperate if they commit suicide, so I'm certainly not one of the Christians who think people who commit suicide go to hell. This comment is a bit of a generalisation. Thank who ever you like that there are people out there willing to tackle the big issues. I haven't seen reliable stats on lots of things. One of them I bet is that the percentage of people medicated to death in religous hospitals and non-religous hospitals is about the same.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2014 16:29:42 GMT -5
Suicide is not about wanting to die, but wanting to end the pain, physical, mental and/or emotional. When someone reaches this point they have lost all hope that the endless hopelessness, emptiness and pain will ever end. Depression is a disease and suicide is a possible symptom of the disease. Cancer is a disease and death is sometimes a symptom of it. I think we under estimate the seriousness of depression and spend far to little on it and other mental illnesses. We also attach a stigma to it which makes it even harder for those who are suffering to get help. Depression also leads to other things our society frowns on like addictions. Addictions are just people trying to self medicate to feel better in a lot of cases. Addictions can lead to criminal offences and jail time. It's not something we should be downplaying the seriousness of. But as long as people believe depressed people just need to 'suck it up' and 'get over it', we will also see people saying suicide is a choice. I disagree with that belief. When someone gets to that state or that level of depression, it is no longer a choice. JMT's of course.Snow ~ I agree that when a person gets to such a place where suicide seems the only option for ending their pain, they have exhausted other options of coping in their mind. That's indeed sad, but it's a fact that when people make up their mind along these lines, they usually go through with it soon down the road. Depression can seriously affect one's over-all health and can put you into a downward spiral that is hard to recover from once in motion. Perhaps this is what happened to Robin Williams or the medical treatment just wasn't working as prescribed and made things worse? However, when anybody has reached that state of mind where they are considering ending it all for relief, they are probably hanging on by a thread, regardless of their lack of profession of faith. Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?
Honestly, I feel atheists would be more focused upon making this life count for something, especially if they don't believe in an afterlife? However, they probably would be the first to choose suicide in a hopeless situation involving much suffering? Faith in God does have its benefits when it comes to enduring suffering and pain in this life. It gives them hope of a brighter afterlife, even if this world becomes the pits, IMHO?
faune, two things jumped out at me and gave me pause. Your comment " Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?" I don't think suicide is ever considered 'convenient' by anyone, let alone the one who ends their life. When you reach that point you have lost all hope. You cannot envision life ever getting better or the pain of living to ever ease. There are some that will call a distress line like I worked on and they are usually the ones that still are holding out a thread of hope that someone, somewhere can help them. But those who are truly 'done' will not reach out, they will just do it. I don't think they are considering suicide to be 'better', but rather ending the pain. Religious people will have different views of course, of where the person who commits suicide goes, but atheists don't go down that path of thinking. You confuse me when you say on one hand that atheists are the ones that probably would value life the most because it's the only one they have (paraphrased) and then on the other you feel that atheists are probably more prone to suicide than people of religion. I can only speak for myself here, but while I do value life and believe this is it for me, I also don't see how it makes sense to continue a life that no longer leaves the person any dignity, hope or release from pain. It makes no sense to me to live out my days on a machine for example. Or, if I have a disease for which there is no cure and I am going to be so incapacitated that I not only have no quality of life, but others are also inconvenienced by my lingering, then I see no reason to continue my life. I think most people, religious or not can understand that. To be honest it makes more sense that someone who believes in an afterlife that is wondrous, would be more inclined to get this one done and over with so they can experience that wonderful afterlife. Unless of course you happen to be in a religion that believes suicide is a ticket straight to hell, then I can see how it might help you decide to prolong things.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 16:53:12 GMT -5
Robin Williams was indeed an atheist. It’s difficult to know when Williams is being serious about religion or if it’s all part of the act. He now seems to identify Episcopalian–like his father–which he describes as “Catholic light: half the religion, half the guilt.” In his off-comedy times, he did claim to be an atheist. But being an ex-Episcopalian and a comedian had to have given him a lot of fodder for comedy. And Catholics, especially ex-Catholics, frequently laugh about their upbringing on guilt.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2014 16:58:28 GMT -5
It’s difficult to know when Williams is being serious about religion or if it’s all part of the act. He now seems to identify Episcopalian–like his father–which he describes as “Catholic light: half the religion, half the guilt.” In his off-comedy times, he did claim to be an atheist. But being an ex-Episcopalian and a comedian had to have given him a lot of fodder for comedy. And Catholics, especially ex-Catholics, frequently laugh about their upbringing on guilt. Like George Carlin would say (paraphrased) If you are headed downtown to hire a hooker, save your bus fare, you've already done it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 16:59:50 GMT -5
Snow ~ I agree that when a person gets to such a place where suicide seems the only option for ending their pain, they have exhausted other options of coping in their mind. That's indeed sad, but it's a fact that when people make up their mind along these lines, they usually go through with it soon down the road. Depression can seriously affect one's over-all health and can put you into a downward spiral that is hard to recover from once in motion. Perhaps this is what happened to Robin Williams or the medical treatment just wasn't working as prescribed and made things worse? However, when anybody has reached that state of mind where they are considering ending it all for relief, they are probably hanging on by a thread, regardless of their lack of profession of faith. Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?
Honestly, I feel atheists would be more focused upon making this life count for something, especially if they don't believe in an afterlife? However, they probably would be the first to choose suicide in a hopeless situation involving much suffering? Faith in God does have its benefits when it comes to enduring suffering and pain in this life. It gives them hope of a brighter afterlife, even if this world becomes the pits, IMHO?
faune, two things jumped out at me and gave me pause. Your comment " Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?" I don't think suicide is ever considered 'convenient' by anyone, let alone the one who ends their life. When you reach that point you have lost all hope. You cannot envision life ever getting better or the pain of living to ever ease. There are some that will call a distress line like I worked on and they are usually the ones that still are holding out a thread of hope that someone, somewhere can help them. But those who are truly 'done' will not reach out, they will just do it. I don't think they are considering suicide to be 'better', but rather ending the pain. Religious people will have different views of course, of where the person who commits suicide goes, but atheists don't go down that path of thinking. You confuse me when you say on one hand that atheists are the ones that probably would value life the most because it's the only one they have (paraphrased) and then on the other you feel that atheists are probably more prone to suicide than people of religion. I can only speak for myself here, but while I do value life and believe this is it for me, I also don't see how it makes sense to continue a life that no longer leaves the person any dignity, hope or release from pain. It makes no sense to me to live out my days on a machine for example. Or, if I have a disease for which there is no cure and I am going to be so incapacitated that I not only have no quality of life, but others are also inconvenienced by my lingering, then I see no reason to continue my life. I think most people, religious or not can understand that. To be honest it makes more sense that someone who believes in an afterlife that is wondrous, would be more inclined to get this one done and over with so they can experience that wonderful afterlife. Unless of course you happen to be in a religion that believes suicide is a ticket straight to hell, then I can see how it might help you decide to prolong things. I agree, you would think that "someone who believes in an afterlife that is wondrous, would be more inclined to get this one done and over with so they can experience that wonderful afterlife. "
However most often that idea IS coupled with the a religion that believes suicide is a ticket straight to hell.
That is what a lot of religions do to you, -twists you in a knot and get you coming & going, while telling you at the same time that "god" gave you Free Will!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 17:04:50 GMT -5
I don't read anywhere in the Bible where suicide is an unforgivable sin - God understands the position that people are in, which is generally pretty desperate if they commit suicide, so I'm certainly not one of the Christians who think people who commit suicide go to hell. This comment is a bit of a generalisation. Count me out of that generalization as well. Its a bit like saying most Muslims believe jihad and martyrdom is their duty. Some are pretty keen to get to heaven though: fixit: Have the Muslims hired you to proselytize for them? Heck, you almost convinced me there for a while. I don't think I'll return to any mosque I've ever been in again. Where do you preach? All the Muslims I have met believe that everyone goes to gehenna -- and all eventually reach genna. Including their version of Satan. But the wives ... latilatidahhhh. No, I think it's the jihadists who have recruited you.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 17:09:58 GMT -5
Suicide is not about wanting to die, but wanting to end the pain, physical, mental and/or emotional. When someone reaches this point they have lost all hope that the endless hopelessness, emptiness and pain will ever end. Depression is a disease and suicide is a possible symptom of the disease. Cancer is a disease and death is sometimes a symptom of it. I think we under estimate the seriousness of depression and spend far to little on it and other mental illnesses. We also attach a stigma to it which makes it even harder for those who are suffering to get help. Depression also leads to other things our society frowns on like addictions. Addictions are just people trying to self medicate to feel better in a lot of cases. Addictions can lead to criminal offences and jail time. It's not something we should be downplaying the seriousness of. But as long as people believe depressed people just need to 'suck it up' and 'get over it', we will also see people saying suicide is a choice. I disagree with that belief. When someone gets to that state or that level of depression, it is no longer a choice. JMT's of course.Snow ~ I agree that when a person gets to such a place where suicide seems the only option for ending their pain, they have exhausted other options of coping in their mind. That's indeed sad, but it's a fact that when people make up their mind along these lines, they usually go through with it soon down the road. Depression can seriously affect one's over-all health and can put you into a downward spiral that is hard to recover from once in motion. Perhaps this is what happened to Robin Williams or the medical treatment just wasn't working as prescribed and made things worse? However, when anybody has reached that state of mind where they are considering ending it all for relief, they are probably hanging on by a thread, regardless of their lack of profession of faith. Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?
Honestly, I feel atheists would be more focused upon making this life count for something, especially if they don't believe in an afterlife? However, they probably would be the first to choose suicide in a hopeless situation involving much suffering? Faith in God does have its benefits when it comes to enduring suffering and pain in this life. It gives them hope of a brighter afterlife, even if this world becomes the pits, IMHO?
Yes, Christianity does offer quite a reward in the afterlife. The unfortunate thing is that for hard core fundamentalists the vegetative lab experience seems to have been added to the list of qualifications.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 17:11:40 GMT -5
Since the other two sites posted are Christian religious sites, why should non-Christians give them any credence? WOW! I found this statement to be chilling! Am I to understand this statement as either rational and/or open minded? Frightening and, might I add, quite unexpected on a "discussion" board. Would be interested in some sort of clarification if such a stark statement can be further clarified. No. You should recognize that it is what it is -- the gospel of Christianity.
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