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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2014 15:48:10 GMT -5
If what you are saying is true CD.... "You have all heard the statement from the Gospel of John, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me.” You have probably heard some hellfire and brimstone Christian preacher use that statement as a supposed proof that Christianity is the only true religion. And for almost 2,000 years the blind leaders of orthodox Christianity have managed to have over a billion people believe in their lie that Christianity is the only true religion. But in truth, the universal Christ is the only true religion, the only true approach to religion, because it is only through the Christ mind that you can attain the goal of all true religion, which is oneness with your source and oneness with your brothers and sisters who are part of the Body of God on earth."Then why there will be separating between the Tares from the Wheat, Sheep and goats, Christians and non-Christians when Jesus returns? if ALL oneness brothers, sisters are part of the body of God on earth... Your thinking is NOT 100% correct!That's not what that is saying. You still have to be in the way of Christ to become one with your maker and with your fellowman. For instance, how can you be one with God or others if you hate them? It's impossible. God doesn't exclude you but you can choose to check out of it. The separation is not done by man but is a process that occurs as people choose to be in the Christ way or not. This is the problem with exclusiveness. No one can even choose to "exclude" himself until someone draws a line of "inclusion".
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2014 15:49:29 GMT -5
The tares are like cancer in the body... If you don't cut it off the cancer will spread throughout the whole body quickly. Well Nathan -- it would seem that you are suggesting Jesus made a mistake when he said what he did in Matt -- and that it is your job to correct him. Whatever!!!!! Matt 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: DO NOT EXCLUDE THEM.Or are you suggesting that you should take over Gods job ... and be the almighty judge? Some people are just too impatient for God to get His own work done.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 16:10:36 GMT -5
Jesus advise to not be forgetful to entertain strangers for some have thus entertained angels - would also seem to contradict the 2x2 policy of exclusion as first option until it is determined if they are "professing" or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 16:45:05 GMT -5
It's a false premise that exclusivity is the cornerstone from its very beginning. It is well documented that it did not start out as an exclusive Christian sect. Exclusivity emerged several years after its inception. Regardless of the baseless premise, yes it could survive and prosper as a non-exclusive group. In fact, there are certain things about it that have huge potential to offer the world but would have to ditch the things that are offensive. Do you consider JOHN LONG'S journal false as to the exclusivity being the cornerstone of the "TRUTH", the "WAY" as we called it?
No. John Long's document is very well done and authoritative in my view.
John Long Journal
JULY, 1903: After that we went to a Convention in Rathmolyon. From that time all the workers began to baptize, and separate their converts; form them into assemblies to meet together on the first day of the week for fellowship, breaking of bread and prayers. Acts 2:42. Also, they appointed bishops, or elders over them. William Irvine emphasized separation but not exclusiveness.
John Long III
Of course, they were all Christian exclusivists from day 1 and Protestant exclusivists, but did not start to become 2x2 exclusivists until it was reported that Joe Kerr brought it in.
For more information, read the John Long Journal on the TTT:
THEN at the July, 1905, Convention at Crocknacrieve, unexpectedly, Joseph Kerr, who was about 24 years old at the time, altered the course of the Go-Preachers. Joe Kerr was
"...one of the most gifted and talented of the workers got a very prominent place by William Irvine; rather too much so for a novice. He attended a conference, in the Bridge of Allan in Scotland; and he was so disgusted with the way the Clergy preached; that he come to the conclusion that there are no clergymen saved. Without any charitable consideration of the conscience or opinion of others, he preached it at that convention. Irvine defended him, but Edward Cooney opposed him and tried to prove that John Wesley was a born again man. "The unwillingness of Clergymen to conform themselves to the pattern as seen in Jesus is very manifest; and the neglect of faithfulness to their calling and office is to be greatly deplored; and a true and faithful witness who tells them the truth in love is to be admired, but to say that there are none of them born again is not true; and limits the power and grace of God to regenerate whomsoever he will. Then again, regeneration is a thing of the heart and cannot be always measured by external appearance, dress, salary or education. The Salvation of the Soul is by grace through faith to everyone that repents and believes in Christ Jesus; and the experience, testimony and fruits of any clergymen bear witness to the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ. Up to that time they all believed that; nevertheless, Kerr’s New Doctrine introduced somewhat of what seemed to be absurd, and that the honest hearted could not believe without a violation of conscience and which hindered a true witness against error and wrong; and injured their own testimony..." (From: John Long's Journal)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 16:59:27 GMT -5
Jesus clearly said the separation of the tares was NOT to be done by his followers, as some of the self-righteous groups wanted --Jesus own words were clearly said that the policy of exclusion should not be applied but that all should grow together until the Lord would make the final judgements. Nathan this scripture is perfect for proving the utter anti-christian mindset of 2x2 exclusion- Matt 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: -- Do NOT exclude!!!In fact, when you think about it, the very act of organizing is to draw a line of exclusion through distinction. There is probably a lot of truth to that: institutions are inherently exclusive to at least some degree. The extent of the exclusivity depends on how stringent the membership requirements are.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 17:20:23 GMT -5
A loving and caring support group where members have each other's backs so to speak. An edifying environment where people can discuss issues, disagree at times and still be friends. It could happen anywhere. Human pride and stubbornness gets in the way in way too many instances. A worship service should stimulate the believer. We all need help and encouragement. We worship God and help each other. A church group is only as good as its members. Too many times, the foot says to the hand, I have no need of thee and vice-versa. Too many Christians stress over little things and ignore the weightier matters such as love, kindness etc..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 17:35:13 GMT -5
If what you are saying is true CD.... "You have all heard the statement from the Gospel of John, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me.” You have probably heard some hellfire and brimstone Christian preacher use that statement as a supposed proof that Christianity is the only true religion. And for almost 2,000 years the blind leaders of orthodox Christianity have managed to have over a billion people believe in their lie that Christianity is the only true religion. But in truth, the universal Christ is the only true religion, the only true approach to religion, because it is only through the Christ mind that you can attain the goal of all true religion, which is oneness with your source and oneness with your brothers and sisters who are part of the Body of God on earth."Then why there will be separating between the Tares from the Wheat, Sheep and goats, Christians and non-Christians when Jesus returns? if ALL oneness brothers, sisters are part of the body of God on earth... Your thinking is NOT 100% correct!Jesus clearly said the separation of the tares was NOT to be done by his followers, as some of the self-righteous groups wanted --Jesus own words were clearly said that the policy of exclusion should not be applied but that all should grow together until the Lord would make the final judgements. Nathan this scripture is perfect for proving the utter anti-christian mindset of 2x2 exclusion- Matt 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: -- Do NOT exclude!!!you forgot the 3rd verse to that one... Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. you do know the tares are doomed right and we can call them tares? and God also said that out of concern for the wheat and not the tares right?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 17:47:05 GMT -5
Jesus clearly said the separation of the tares was NOT to be done by his followers, as some of the self-righteous groups wanted --Jesus own words were clearly said that the policy of exclusion should not be applied but that all should grow together until the Lord would make the final judgements. Nathan this scripture is perfect for proving the utter anti-christian mindset of 2x2 exclusion- Matt 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: -- Do NOT exclude!!!you forgot the 3rd verse to that one... Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. you do know the tares are doomed right and we can call them tares? and God also said that out of concern for the wheat and not the tares right? Maybe you could explain to us what a "tare" (the human sort) looks like or sounds like so that we can identify them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 17:50:51 GMT -5
you forgot the 3rd verse to that one... Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. you do know the tares are doomed right and we can call them tares? and God also said that out of concern for the wheat and not the tares right? Maybe you could explain to us what a "tare" (the human sort) looks like or sounds like so that we can identify them. i don't think i want to re-write the bible just read it and you'll get the idea...
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2014 18:03:32 GMT -5
He excluded from eternal life all people who did not believe in him.I don't think this is what he said although this may well be what he thought people should do these things. But believing in him was not negotiable. Is there any support for the possibility of eternal life without believing in Jesus? Jesus excluded NO ONE from his love and fellowship and the very best that he could give them. No, but he did say say that people who did not believe in him would be excluded from eternal life. You seem to be focusing on the actions of the members and not on the statements of the founder. Jesus did not exclude anyone from his love, fellowship, etc. But he did state that if people did not believe in him (or with word substitution and meaning changes, did not believe in the results)that they would not gain eternal life. Back to my question: Is there any support for the possibility of eternal life without believing in Jesus?True. But that was not the question. Pleasing god wad not the criteria. The criteria was believing in Jesus.Let's, for the moment forget the evils of the 2X2s and its members and focus on what Jesus said about eternal life. How is demanding unconditional belief not the hallmark of an exclusive religion?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:08:15 GMT -5
Maybe it is the IN YOUR FACE exclusivity that leads to shunning, physical separation from other groups etc. that the OP is talking about. Nobody would be 100% non-exclusive. It is the fruits of the rigid exclusivity that concerns some people. If you personally feel your group is better, is there a need to ridicule other groups? I am trying to be more patient of exclusive people also...many they were raised that way or lack self esteem leading them to feel the need to see themselves as better than others.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:28:13 GMT -5
If a group feels it has teachings that are closer to Jesus, than is OK to a point. But some of this physical separation forced by church leaders is going way too far. I believe people in ANY religion should feel that they are the best out there yet don't let it cause you to be a SNOB! Why would a person belong to one church if another church has a BETTER belief system? The fellowship meetings have some unique features such as a homeless ministry, meeting in a man's home and conventions on rural farms. Often people in a little meeting can become close to each other and help each other emotionally. However, at the same time, peer pressure, adoration of the ministry, limited friendship with non-members etc. can develop and hinder a group. Sometimes it is the degree of exclusivity and how it causes one to view others is the real issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:31:23 GMT -5
Maybe you could explain to us what a "tare" (the human sort) looks like or sounds like so that we can identify them. i don't think i want to re-write the bible just read it and you'll get the idea... I've read it and from the metaphor, a tare looks like the wheat it dwells among. That's probably a good reason why human beings shouldn't be exclusive. We're not only incapable of knowing the difference but the worst part is that dividing and separating is hurtful even if you could tell the difference. The idea of Jesus' teachings is to bring people together as one in love, not blow them apart.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 7, 2014 18:37:01 GMT -5
you forgot the 3rd verse to that one... Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. you do know the tares are doomed right and we can call them tares? and God also said that out of concern for the wheat and not the tares right? Maybe you could explain to us what a "tare" (the human sort) looks like or sounds like so that we can identify them. By any conservative Christian standards, I would be a tare. And, I would have to admit, I'm rather proud of that. Furthermore, I don't even care if pride is a sin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:39:44 GMT -5
i don't think i want to re-write the bible just read it and you'll get the idea... I've read it and from the metaphor, a tare looks like the wheat it dwells among. That's probably a good reason why human beings shouldn't be exclusive. We're not only incapable of knowing the difference but the worst part is that dividing and separating is hurtful even if you could tell the difference. The idea of Jesus' teachings is to bring people together as one in love, not blow them apart. actually he said this Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:42:29 GMT -5
I've read it and from the metaphor, a tare looks like the wheat it dwells among. That's probably a good reason why human beings shouldn't be exclusive. We're not only incapable of knowing the difference but the worst part is that dividing and separating is hurtful even if you could tell the difference. The idea of Jesus' teachings is to bring people together as one in love, not blow them apart. actually he said this Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. So are you suggesting that Jesus advocated violence?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:46:21 GMT -5
actually he said this Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. So are you suggesting that Jesus advocated violence? no just division of the tares from the wheat...aka worldly from the faithful
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:53:29 GMT -5
So are you suggesting that Jesus advocated violence? no just division of the tares from the wheat...aka worldly from the faithful To understand that verse, you have to look at the context. People thought Jesus as messiah came to send the Romans off packing and bring peace. Rather though, his teachings brought on "the sword" and attracted more violence through envy and resentment toward him and his followers. Peace will only come when the whole world is converted to the Christ-mind of love. If you read the rest of the chapter in context, it fits with the predicted coming violence. It has nothing to do with whacking down tares.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:56:20 GMT -5
no just division of the tares from the wheat...aka worldly from the faithful To understand that verse, you have to look at the context. People thought Jesus as messiah came to send the Romans off packing and bring peace. Rather though, his teachings brought on "the sword" and attracted more violence through envy and resentment toward him and his followers. Peace will only come when the whole world is converted to the Christ-mind of love. but the world wont convert just read revelation or daniel...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:58:36 GMT -5
To understand that verse, you have to look at the context. People thought Jesus as messiah came to send the Romans off packing and bring peace. Rather though, his teachings brought on "the sword" and attracted more violence through envy and resentment toward him and his followers. Peace will only come when the whole world is converted to the Christ-mind of love. but the world wont convert just read revelation or daniel... And that is why his presence brought the "sword". If you read the rest of Matt 10, the meaning of the sword is quite straightforward. The idea of Jesus running around with a sword and cutting off heads just doesn't fit with the image of the Prince of Peace.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 19:06:07 GMT -5
Maybe you could explain to us what a "tare" (the human sort) looks like or sounds like so that we can identify them. By any conservative Christian standards, I would be a tare. And, I would have to admit, I'm rather proud of that. Furthermore, I don't even care if pride is a sin. No doubt you are trapped in the Christian tare-trap. Good ol' Christian exclusivity....but your status might be a badge of honour!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2014 19:48:31 GMT -5
Jesus clearly said the separation of the tares was NOT to be done by his followers, as some of the self-righteous groups wanted --Jesus own words were clearly said that the policy of exclusion should not be applied but that all should grow together until the Lord would make the final judgements. Nathan this scripture is perfect for proving the utter anti-christian mindset of 2x2 exclusion- Matt 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: -- Do NOT exclude!!!you forgot the 3rd verse to that one... Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. you do know the tares are doomed right and we can call them tares? and God also said that out of concern for the wheat and not the tares right? So who are the reapers? And how does this fit with "judgement day" scenarios?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2014 19:52:00 GMT -5
Maybe you could explain to us what a "tare" (the human sort) looks like or sounds like so that we can identify them. By any conservative Christian standards, I would be a tare. And, I would have to admit, I'm rather proud of that. Furthermore, I don't even care if pride is a sin. But pride is also a excluder of others.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2014 19:54:38 GMT -5
but the world wont convert just read revelation or daniel... And that is why his presence brought the "sword". If you read the rest of Matt 10, the meaning of the sword is quite straightforward. The idea of Jesus running around with a sword and cutting off heads just doesn't fit with the image of the Prince of Peace. No, they don't fit together. But they didn't originate together either. Matthew is a Jewish gospel -- Prince of Peace is a Christian ideal.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 19:55:35 GMT -5
Dmmichgood's quote - "Do you consider JOHN LONG'S journal false as to the exclusivity being the cornerstone of the "TRUTH", the "WAY" as we called it?"
Dmmichgood, you have stated you do not believe the newspaper articles, web sites, reports, even government policy and such on euthanasia in Holland. Yet you will quote from this John Long guy who clearly has an agenda, an axe to grind and engages quite opening in advocacy writing.
You demonstrate a vulnerability to bias.
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Post by emy on Jul 7, 2014 20:02:48 GMT -5
Well Nathan -- it would seem that you are suggesting Jesus made a mistake when he said what he did in Matt -- and that it is your job to correct him. Whatever!!!!! Matt 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: DO NOT EXCLUDE THEM.Or are you suggesting that you should take over Gods job ... and be the almighty judge? There's more: 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.So we can give all the effort we can to being non-exclusive, but in the end, some will not be saved. Any church that has a standard will in effect exclude anyone who doesn't agree with the standard. As Bert said, a completely non-exclusive church will stand for nothing. Maybe the "universal" sort is close. I have no experience with them.
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Post by emy on Jul 7, 2014 20:18:45 GMT -5
I've read it and from the metaphor, a tare looks like the wheat it dwells among. That's probably a good reason why human beings shouldn't be exclusive. We're not only incapable of knowing the difference but the worst part is that dividing and separating is hurtful even if you could tell the difference. The idea of Jesus' teachings is to bring people together as one in love, not blow them apart. In the example Jesus used, the servants of the owner, DID know the difference between the wheat and the tares. It was concern for the wheat that they were instructed to let them grow together. Maybe the lesson in the verses is to not live separated in communes or such but to live among all people - live and let live (including let "2x2" live). Also wheat and tares apparently look much alike - maybe as those among us who have the right appearance, but don't produce the right fruit?
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2014 20:42:58 GMT -5
If that is true, explain to me what the phrase 'I am the way, the truth and the life. NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME' means. Sounds like he felt there was no heaven for anyone that didn't enter the kingdom of God through him. Really can't fathom what else it would mean. Jesus was exclusive and I have to agree with Nathan on this one. Sure, happy to oblige you on that one! Just to be clear, I am not trying to explain the mainstream understanding of this, but the universalist view of it. It is a matter of coming to an understanding of what "I" and "me" means in a useful way. The statement makes no sense to interpret it literally. A statement like "snow is the way" is nonsensical. How can snow BE the way? It takes some mental gymnastics to extract any sense out of it at all. The liberal, universalist Christian views those words as Jesus meaning himself in a metaphorical sense, representing divine love. So replace the words "I" and "me" with "Love", ie "Love is the way, the truth and the life" and suddenly it makes perfect sense and it is no longer a religious exclusivism.....plus it really works. Hate is the way of destruction ( and the way to whatever you may imagine hell to be), and love is the way to life in many manifestations including the way to whatever you may imagine heaven to be whether within this lifetime or beyond life. Here is what one universalist Christian says about it. It is "universal Christ" he uses as the term to portray all the attributes that come from divine love. "You have all heard the statement from the Gospel of John, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me.” You have probably heard some hellfire and brimstone Christian preacher use that statement as a supposed proof that Christianity is the only true religion. And for almost 2,000 years the blind leaders of orthodox Christianity have managed to have over a billion people believe in their lie that Christianity is the only true religion. But in truth, the universal Christ is the only true religion, the only true approach to religion, because it is only through the Christ mind that you can attain the goal of all true religion, which is oneness with your source and oneness with your brothers and sisters who are part of the Body of God on earth." Yes, explained like that there is no exclusivity. The Universal Christ mind or consciousness is not exclusive. It is only about love, love for your neighbor, love for yourself, love for your enemies and last but not least, you are essentially love. But as you also point out, most of Christianity does not see Jesus as Love and do not replace the word Jesus for the word love when they talk about the way, truth and life. So in the end Christianity becomes and is an exclusive religion by the way that is interpreted. Now, I don't see why we are replacing the word Jesus for the word love within what is said in the context of the Bible. Jesus clearly states he is the way the truth and the life. We have to jump to the conclusion that Jesus thinks of himself as love when he says that in order to replace the word love for the word Jesus. That's how I read and interpret what the bible says. I however agree with you if you use the Christ mind or consciousness you can use the word love, but then I believe you also need to do away with the idea that Jesus really existed and was not just a Christ consciousness or concept of pure divine love that many religions embraced long before Christianity. That's how I see it anyway.
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