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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2014 18:15:42 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character?
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2014 18:23:08 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? Are you considering a christian fellowship?
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2014 18:36:47 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? If you study the history of the most successful missions I think you'll find the preaching was non-exclusive. If you study the history of the growth in worker numbers I think you'll find the most rapid rate of growth was before the living witness doctrine took root. The "gatekeepers" are very effective at keeping people out. Wilson Reid's sermon is one example:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 18:48:40 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? i know john hagees ministry in non-exclusive heard say time and again it dont matter what denomination your in as long as its Christ based...i am sure there are others
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2014 19:33:24 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? Are you considering a christian fellowship? I don't know, because I'm still thinking about the question. But I assume most answers would assume a Christian fellowship.
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Post by Greg on Jul 6, 2014 20:47:12 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? Without the exclusivity there would be less conforming to worker rule/oversight. Would be difficult to distinguish between 'this we must do' and 'this we choose to do'. The exclusivity is tied in with what must be done. Without the exclusivity....chaos. An opinion, of course.
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Post by snow on Jul 6, 2014 21:18:57 GMT -5
Without exclusivity it wouldn't be religion.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jul 6, 2014 22:20:48 GMT -5
You will find non-exclusive fellowship at your local nudist camp.
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2014 22:45:46 GMT -5
You will find non-exclusive fellowship at your local nudist camp. You mean they accept fully-clothed spectators?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2014 22:46:23 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? i know john hagees ministry in non-exclusive heard say time and again it dont matter what denomination your in as long as its Christ based...i am sure there are others Others?
All others like the Jehovah Witnesses? The Mormons? The Catholics?
Neither you or John Hagees can judge that that they aren't Christ based.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jul 6, 2014 22:51:01 GMT -5
You will find non-exclusive fellowship at your local nudist camp. You mean they accept fully-clothed spectators? Supposedly, some do.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2014 22:53:10 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? If you study the history of the most successful missions I think you'll find the preaching was non-exclusive. If you study the history of the growth in worker numbers I think you'll find the most rapid rate of growth was before the living witness doctrine took root. The "gatekeepers" are very effective at keeping people out. Wilson Reid's sermon is one example: Can you name the successful missions where preaching was non-exclusive?
When did the "living witness doctrine" take root?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2014 23:15:16 GMT -5
['quote] What is a successful mission?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2014 23:16:45 GMT -5
You will find non-exclusive fellowship at your local nudist camp. You mean they accept fully-clothed spectators? Yes. A change is as good as a rest.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2014 23:19:42 GMT -5
I don't know, because I'm still thinking about the question. But I assume most answers would assume a Christian fellowship. But why "Christian"? Christian is by definition "THE Way", is it not?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 23:27:59 GMT -5
i know john hagees ministry in non-exclusive heard say time and again it dont matter what denomination your in as long as its Christ based...i am sure there are others Others?
All others like the Jehovah Witnesses? The Mormons? The Catholics?
Neither you or John Hagees can judge that that they aren't Christ based.
its a simple test that can determine whether a church is Christ based or not the first question goes something like the following... do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for your sins? see how easy that is? hardly any effort and covers a multitude of Churches...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 6, 2014 23:39:28 GMT -5
Others?
All others like the Jehovah Witnesses? The Mormons? The Catholics?
Neither you or John Hagees can judge that that they aren't Christ based.
its a simple test that can determine whether a church is Christ based or not the first question goes something like the following... do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for your sins? see how easy that is? hardly any effort and covers a multitude of Churches... You really didn't answer my questions, -sorta slid around them!
Perhaps I should have been more explicit.
Do YOU or John Hagees believe that the Jehovah Witness, The Mormon, & The Catholic churches are Christ based?
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2014 23:52:53 GMT -5
What is a successful mission? One in which lots of people profess.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 0:03:45 GMT -5
its a simple test that can determine whether a church is Christ based or not the first question goes something like the following... do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for your sins? see how easy that is? hardly any effort and covers a multitude of Churches... You really didn't answer my questions, -sorta slid around them!
Perhaps I should have been more explicit.
Do YOU or John Hagees believe that the Jehovah Witness, The Mormon, & The Catholic churches are Christ based?
as far as i know thier all Christ based...now comes the tricky part....doctrine thats where the divisions start I.E jehovahs don't believe in the trinity, mormons think there are many Gods and that when we die we can become like God and catholics pray to mary just to name a few things...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 0:47:16 GMT -5
I hope dmmichgood doesn't mind me copying her rather thought provoking post. The idea that ''only the F&W have the Holy Spirit and are the only one's saved," has been the very cornerstone of the the "TRUTH" from it's very inception!
It was the cornerstone on which all the rules that were often odious to bear helped us believe that it was worth while.
Without that concept tell me why anyone would put themselves through so much "sacrifice?"
That is the reason that without that concept"that only the F&W have the Holy Spirit" I sincerely don't see how the "TRUTH" will survive. Could the f&w preserve the unique elements of their ministry, home meetings and doctrine, and be non-exclusive? Or would it lose all meaning and character? It's a false premise that exclusivity is the cornerstone from its very beginning. It is well documented that it did not start out as an exclusive Christian sect. Exclusivity emerged several years after its inception. Regardless of the baseless premise, yes it could survive and prosper as a non-exclusive group. In fact, there are certain things about it that have huge potential to offer the world but would have to ditch the things that are offensive.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 7, 2014 1:02:37 GMT -5
You really didn't answer my questions, -sorta slid around them!
Perhaps I should have been more explicit.
Do YOU or John Hagees believe that the Jehovah Witness, The Mormon, & The Catholic churches are Christ based?
as far as i know thier all Christ based...now comes the tricky part....doctrine thats where the divisions start I.E jehovahs don't believe in the trinity, mormons think there are many Gods and that when we die we can become like God and catholics pray to mary just to name a few things... "ay, therein lies' the rub;" (not quite the appropriate saying, but close)
Yes, indeed therein lies the "tricky part."
So, now we begin to see just how "easy" a simple question becomes as to whether a church is "Christ based" or not.
A bit more than just one question, "do you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for your sins?" doesn't quite cover it after all does it?
Now we have further questions:
-don't believe in the trinity,
-there are many Gods
-pray to mary
-to name a few things.
I'm sure we can think of many, many more things.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 2:29:44 GMT -5
A non-exclusive church is simply a church open to everything. It can't define itself in any way because it has no boundaries.
It can meet on Sunday, or Friday, or any day, or no day. It can believe in God, Allah, Satan or Miley Cyrus swinging on a wrecking ball. It can love, hate, plot to bring down an airliner or be stoned out of its collective head. It's the church of everything, and Nothing.
What you DON'T believe is every bit as important as what you DO believe. Who you DO accept as a member is as important as who you DON'T accept.
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Post by fixit on Jul 7, 2014 4:35:51 GMT -5
A non-exclusive church is simply a church open to everything. It can't define itself in any way because it has no boundaries. It can meet on Sunday, or Friday, or any day, or no day. It can believe in God, Allah, Satan or Miley Cyrus swinging on a wrecking ball. It can love, hate, plot to bring down an airliner or be stoned out of its collective head. It's the church of everything, and Nothing. What you DON'T believe is every bit as important as what you DO believe. Who you DO accept as a member is as important as who you DON'T accept. You're missing the point Bert. An exclusive church has no moral right to exclude anyone, because excluded folks are assigned to a lost eternity. A non-exclusive church can stand for something - other than its own self righteousness.
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2014 6:17:09 GMT -5
An exclusive church has no moral right to exclude anyone, because excluded folks are assigned to a lost eternity. A non-exclusive church can stand for something - other than its own self righteousness. So a non-exclusive church could not be christian.
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Post by penguin on Jul 7, 2014 6:44:16 GMT -5
A non exclusive fellowship to me would not be of the same spirit and it wouldn't work for me
Doubtless there are many non exclusive churches out there so you can go and find one for yourself, but I don't think you'll find many of the friends, and certainly no workers go there
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 6:46:45 GMT -5
An exclusive church has no moral right to exclude anyone, because excluded folks are assigned to a lost eternity. A non-exclusive church can stand for something - other than its own self righteousness. So a non-exclusive church could not be christian. On the contrary, the Christian spirit teaches that it is beyond us mortal beings to know or judge the hearts of individual men and women around us -- The Christian story is amazing in the approval and respect that Jesus gave to many of of 'unlikely' -- and also the responsibility that he placed on his followers of love for our 'neighbor' .. independant their apparent religious affiliation .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 7:59:03 GMT -5
So a non-exclusive church could not be christian. On the contrary, the Christian spirit teaches that it is beyond us mortal beings to know or judge the hearts of individual men and women around us -- The Christian story is amazing in the approval and respect that Jesus gave to many of of 'unlikely' -- and also the responsibility that he placed on his followers of love for our 'neighbor' .. independant their apparent religious affiliation . I would agree with that entirely. The true Christian spirit is non-exclusive and extends well beyond institutional Christianity. Jesus never did found an institutional church system which by its very nature is exclusive.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 8:02:57 GMT -5
A non exclusive fellowship to me would not be of the same spirit and it wouldn't work for me Doubtless there are many non exclusive churches out there so you can go and find one for yourself, but I don't think you'll find many of the friends, and certainly no workers go there I would suggest there are few actual non-exclusive churches out there, if any. The only difference between churches is that their exclusivity is either more broad or more narrow.
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