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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 16:43:06 GMT -5
Never heard that one Bob and doubt it's true. Have you checked the NZ criminal code? Your chances of seeing a conviction are extremely remote Bob: It's ridiculous to compare blasphemy laws in modern civilised countries with that of primitive Islamic countries.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 17:17:37 GMT -5
Your chances of seeing a conviction are extremely remote Bob: I know. Which allows me to say why I believe that is so. Rather than get rid of the law, they kept it so they could use it if a particular situation made it an expedient solution. I think not. The only important differences between the laws is (1) how often they are invoked, and (2) the severity of punishment. The purpose of all such laws is to restrict freedom of religious expression. Islamic governments acknowledge that they restrict such expression, Western countries profess to no such restrictions, and if the people of NZ agree with freedom of religious expression, they should demand the law be removed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:20:24 GMT -5
they weren't christians then How can you tell that? ah because they kill
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:23:36 GMT -5
Interestingly i know many atheists who freely say they are atheists they're still walking the street Shows his ignorance about NZ doesn't it virgo. Saying you are an atheist in NZ is no different from saying you are one in America. i would say that most countries would have laws on their statute book which are never acted on imagine how many police, lawyers, judges, makers of laws would be arrested
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:24:37 GMT -5
christians do not kill other people period
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:29:21 GMT -5
Interestingly i know many atheists who freely say they are atheists they're still walking the street I believe you, of course. But that doesn't mean they can't be arrested. As in most things, file a complaint with the police about one and see what can happen. the police would just laugh it off do you really think they would really accept a complaint like that, i know they wouldn't here anyway for that matter, they would say it is a civil matter the complaint would have to be filed in court by the complainant
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 17:53:28 GMT -5
I believe you, of course. But that doesn't mean they can't be arrested. As in most things, file a complaint with the police about one and see what can happen. the police would just laugh it off do you really think they would really accept a complaint like that, i know they wouldn't here anyway for that matter, they would say it is a civil matter the complaint would have to be filed in court by the complainant Yes, Virgo, we covered that, and I agreed with you on the above. Let me reword my last post. As long as the law is on the books, the right combination of hatemonger(s), prosecutor(s) and judge(s) can force the application of the law. And BTW, when I use the word "can" I specifically do not mean "will".
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 17:54:57 GMT -5
christians do not kill other people period They hire people to kill other people, though.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 18:04:52 GMT -5
Interestingly i know many atheists who freely say they are atheists they're still walking the street Shows his ignorance about NZ doesn't it virgo. Saying you are an atheist in NZ is no different from saying you are one in America. No, it doesn't show my ignorance about New Zealand. I brought attention to a law that you maybe think either never existed, or would never be used -- I don't care which. What this dialogue does show is that both you and virgo did not read my statement for what it REALLY said. It wasn't a slam on NZ, it could have been a personal compliment to you both if you'd read me correctly.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 18:38:05 GMT -5
If I lived in Maryland, would I be liable to six months imprisonment for what I've written on TMB regarding the Trinity?
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Post by Mary on Jul 11, 2014 18:52:41 GMT -5
Bob wrote: Interestingly, in New Zealand you can be arrested for saying you're an atheist. We should send all the paranoid Christians to NZ.
You have not shown the law where a person gets arrested for saying they are an atheist. Blasphemy is not saying you are an atheist.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 19:57:07 GMT -5
Bob wrote: Interestingly, in New Zealand you can be arrested for saying you're an atheist. We should send all the paranoid Christians to NZ. You have not shown the law where a person gets arrested for saying they are an atheist. Blasphemy is not saying you are an atheist. You can't be arrested in New Zealand for saying you're an atheist. New Zealand has always had separation of church and state. A third of the population claim to have no religion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 21:05:58 GMT -5
christians do not kill other people period They hire people to kill other people, though. even if they have a thought of death to another goes against the statues that Jesus laid down like love thy neighbour as thyself, so therefore can't be christian
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Post by xna on Jul 11, 2014 21:14:54 GMT -5
"christians do not kill other people period."
--------------------------
I guess these were not "TRUE" Christians; doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition, ...
There are many books written on Christian killing. Here are a few.
Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. James A. Haught, Holy Horrors. J.N. Hillgarth, Christianity and Paganism, 350-750. Malcolm Lambert, Medieval Heresy. Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe. R. Dean Peterson, A Concise History of Christianity. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence
Thankfully Christianity has reformed, now we need Islam to do the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 21:25:01 GMT -5
"christians do not kill other people period." -------------------------- I guess these were not "TRUE" Christians; doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition, ... There are many books written on Christian killing. Here are a few. Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. James A. Haught, Holy Horrors. J.N. Hillgarth, Christianity and Paganism, 350-750. Malcolm Lambert, Medieval Heresy. Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe. R. Dean Peterson, A Concise History of Christianity. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence Thankfully Christianity has reformed, now we need Islam to do the same. your guess would be correct, true christianity is following Jesus and worshipping in deed and spirit
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Post by xna on Jul 11, 2014 21:39:28 GMT -5
"christians do not kill other people period." -------------------------- I guess these were not "TRUE" Christians; doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition, ... There are many books written on Christian killing. Here are a few. Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. James A. Haught, Holy Horrors. J.N. Hillgarth, Christianity and Paganism, 350-750. Malcolm Lambert, Medieval Heresy. Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe. R. Dean Peterson, A Concise History of Christianity. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence Thankfully Christianity has reformed, now we need Islam to do the same. your guess would be correct, true christianity is following Jesus and worshipping in deed and spirit I think we both agree that "doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition" called themselves Christians, so I call them Christians, as they fit the dictionary definition, but you do not call them Christians. That's why I mentioned the "No True Scotsman Fallacy". en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 23:08:34 GMT -5
They hire people to kill other people, though. even if they have a thought of death to another goes against the statues that Jesus laid down like love thy neighbour as thyself, so therefore can't be christian So what do you call them -- Muslims?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 23:13:16 GMT -5
"christians do not kill other people period." -------------------------- I guess these were not "TRUE" Christians; doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition, ... There are many books written on Christian killing. Here are a few. Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. James A. Haught, Holy Horrors. J.N. Hillgarth, Christianity and Paganism, 350-750. Malcolm Lambert, Medieval Heresy. Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe. R. Dean Peterson, A Concise History of Christianity. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence Thankfully Christianity has reformed, now we need Islam to do the same. Christians still kill people, and think of it far more than they do it. I don't think Muslims are any more bloodthirsty than Christians in the "thought" department. I think it will always be that way -- normal human beings are always more human than spiritual.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 23:17:47 GMT -5
If I lived in Maryland, would I be liable to six months imprisonment for what I've written on TMB regarding the Trinity? Maybe we should review the NZ wording to see if it demands compliance, or allows for leniency. According to the law in Maryland, if someone is actually charged and found guilty, they have to be fined and/or imprisoned.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 23:29:38 GMT -5
I believe you, of course. But that doesn't mean they can't be arrested. As in most things, file a complaint with the police about one and see what can happen. the police would just laugh it off do you really think they would really accept a complaint like that, i know they wouldn't here anyway for that matter, they would say it is a civil matter the complaint would have to be filed in court by the complainant This is not a civil matter -- it does not involve wrongs between individuals. As a matter of fact, this NZ law is found in the Criminal Code. But I don't see any language that would force a court to assess a punishment.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 11, 2014 23:35:07 GMT -5
Bob wrote: Interestingly, in New Zealand you can be arrested for saying you're an atheist. We should send all the paranoid Christians to NZ. You have not shown the law where a person gets arrested for saying they are an atheist. Blasphemy is not saying you are an atheist. You can't be arrested in New Zealand for saying you're an atheist. New Zealand has always had separation of church and state. A third of the population claim to have no religion. Blasphemy is not saying you are an atheist, but saying you are an atheist is blasphemy. Being a car does not mean you are an Audi, but being an Audi does mean that you are a car. Anyway, I would expect that the purpose of the "blasphemy" law has more to do with "how" one announced one's atheism than the mere fact that he is an atheist.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 23:46:07 GMT -5
"christians do not kill other people period." -------------------------- I guess these were not "TRUE" Christians; doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition, ... There are many books written on Christian killing. Here are a few. Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. James A. Haught, Holy Horrors. J.N. Hillgarth, Christianity and Paganism, 350-750. Malcolm Lambert, Medieval Heresy. Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe. R. Dean Peterson, A Concise History of Christianity. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence Thankfully Christianity has reformed, now we need Islam to do the same. Exactly. Somehow Islam ended up lagging the West by a few centuries. They could catch up very quickly if it wasn't for the extremist element that's trying to turn the clock back 1000+ years.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2014 23:48:29 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 12, 2014 1:05:40 GMT -5
"christians do not kill other people period." -------------------------- I guess these were not "TRUE" Christians; doctors killed at abortion clinics, Jim Jones, witch trials, crusade, inquisition, ... There are many books written on Christian killing. Here are a few. Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History. James A. Haught, Holy Horrors. J.N. Hillgarth, Christianity and Paganism, 350-750. Malcolm Lambert, Medieval Heresy. Edward Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe. R. Dean Peterson, A Concise History of Christianity. Mark Juergensmeyer, Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence Thankfully Christianity has reformed, now we need Islam to do the same. Exactly. Somehow Islam ended up lagging the West by a few centuries. They could catch up very quickly if it wasn't for the extremist element that's trying to turn the clock back 1000+ years. Islam got a few centuries later beginning that Christianity did. But the extremist element is not steering Islam away from its core principles -- the extremist elements are just thriving on a world-wide wave of religious fundamentalism and impoverished societies and dictatorial regimes. And we have to remember than Western Christianity has not yet gotten rid of its waves of religious fundamentalism -- we have one in progress right now. The difference is that our secular democracies have been more effective in curbing violence and protecting individual freedoms. I don't believe Muslims have any greater problem with their fundamentalists and terrorists than Christians have had throughout history with their radicals and tyrants. And Muslims now have more access to education than Christians had for a whole millennium.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 12, 2014 1:07:58 GMT -5
I didn't disagree with that. Are you trying to convince me or someone of something? Just curious.
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Post by fixit on Jul 12, 2014 2:56:59 GMT -5
In both Canada and New Zealand, it is not blasphemous libel for a person to express, in good faith and in decent language, or to attempt to establish by argument, in good faith and conveyed in decent language, an opinion on a religious subject. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemous_libelI didn't disagree with that. Are you trying to convince me or someone of something? Just curious. It doesn't matter to me what you're convinced of. You made what I consider a rather strange statement: Interestingly, in New Zealand you can be arrested for saying you're an atheist. ...so I suppose its OK for me to make statements of my own.
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Post by fixit on Jul 12, 2014 3:02:40 GMT -5
Islam got a few centuries later beginning that Christianity did. Islam had a more advanced and even more humane civilisation than Christianity in the middle ages, but the extremist element has been dragging it backwards.
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Post by uker260702 on Jul 12, 2014 11:14:49 GMT -5
christians do not kill other people period Ok, that seems unambiguous. Can it be said with the same certainty that Christians do not (for examples)......... Steal? Lie? Covet? Commit adultery? Break the speed limit? Commit CSA? Bear false witness? I`m trying to understand if there is a certain list or level of sins/crimes that would preclude you from calling someone a Christian?
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