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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 29, 2014 10:07:16 GMT -5
As a mother of two young children I see one important aspect of my role being to protect them and minimise the risk of harm - while I can. Can you explain what harm you feel they would be in to be sitting in a roomfull of people no matter what the people had done in the past? Protect them from what? From the very little I know about children, I think if that man came up to shake your hand your children would get a good idea of your feelings. I know what you mean about people repenting or not. I would not care one way or the other regarding his repenting. But sitting in a gathering, knowing that there are all types of people there as well, singling out someone because their crimes are known seems to be somewhat arbitrary. I find it interesting that you advocate the importance of the parents being the ones responsible for protecting the children, and at the same time have a problem with his they go about that. If a parent has an issue with who their kids associate with, then whatever they decide is right for their kids, is therefore the correct decision. Perhaps I have misunderstood your stance on parents being the ones who should do what they feel is needed to protect and care for their kids. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2014 11:10:59 GMT -5
As long as there are no child protection guidelines and commitment from overseers to follow them, you can't even know who is sitting in your meeting or who is sleeping in your guest room. That to me is even more concerning. And even if there are guidelines that people say they will follow, can you trust that an offender will follow them? |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 29, 2014 12:12:20 GMT -5
As a mother of two young children I see one important aspect of my role being to protect them and minimise the risk of harm - while I can. Can you explain what harm you feel they would be in to be sitting in a roomfull of people no matter what the people had done in the past? Protect them from what? From the very little I know about children, I think if that man came up to shake your hand your children would get a good idea of your feelings. I know what you mean about people repenting or not. I would not care one way or the other regarding his repenting. But sitting in a gathering, knowing that there are all types of people there as well, singling out someone because their crimes are known seems to be somewhat arbitrary. I'm not going to get into a sentence by sentence discussion with you Rational, I wouldn't win - the statement I'm making is that if I was aware there was a CSA offender in any gathering, my choice would be not to take my children there. |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 29, 2014 12:15:09 GMT -5
As a mother of two young children I see one important aspect of my role being to protect them and minimise the risk of harm - while I can. I feel that choosing to take them to a place where they will be in close contact with a CSA offender is not doing what I can to protect them. And my children would not be aware of my wariness, or concern - just that we weren't going to the meeting. The protective instinct regarding my children far outweighs the need to publically recognise that everyone has the opportunity to repent. Rs, I am curious: are you professing? If you are, should you not be more concerned about offenders who have not served a sentence and are not known by most as offenders than about known offenders who have served their sentence? For example, overseers knew that CC had committed CSA but still accepted him into the work and sent him to unsuspecting homes even on different continents. How many like that are still in the work and in people's homes? As long as there are no child protection guidelines and commitment from overseers to follow them, you can't even know who is sitting in your meeting or who is sleeping in your guest room. That to me is even more concerning. I have those concerns maja, however on a very basic practical level my first concern is my own children and how I can minimise the risk to them. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2014 13:34:05 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into a sentence by sentence discussion with you Rational, I wouldn't win - the statement I'm making is that if I was aware there was a CSA offender in any gathering, my choice would be not to take my children there. It was not a win or lose situation. I actually wanted to know why you felt like you do and where the reason for feeling like that was rooted. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2014 13:36:09 GMT -5
Rs, I am curious: are you professing? If you are, should you not be more concerned about offenders who have not served a sentence and are not known by most as offenders than about known offenders who have served their sentence? For example, overseers knew that CC had committed CSA but still accepted him into the work and sent him to unsuspecting homes even on different continents. How many like that are still in the work and in people's homes? As long as there are no child protection guidelines and commitment from overseers to follow them, you can't even know who is sitting in your meeting or who is sleeping in your guest room. That to me is even more concerning. I have those concerns maja, however on a very basic practical level my first concern is my own children and how I can minimise the risk to them. Having heard from Scott about the unusual behavior exhibited by IH you might have been correct in reducing the risk to your children! |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 29, 2014 14:45:46 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into a sentence by sentence discussion with you Rational, I wouldn't win - the statement I'm making is that if I was aware there was a CSA offender in any gathering, my choice would be not to take my children there. It was not a win or lose situation. I actually wanted to know why you felt like you do and where the reason for feeling like that was rooted. Rational - are you a father? (for some reason I think you're a man!!) Or a grandfather? Or mother if I've got it completely wrong..... Why would you ever take your children into a situation where there is the possibility that someone may say something to them, touch them, or even look at them and think about what they could do - there are soooo many unknowns in this life, really, why would I choose to put them there when I know the risk is elevated? |
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Post by mdm on Jul 29, 2014 15:00:55 GMT -5
Rs, I am curious: are you professing? If you are, should you not be more concerned about offenders who have not served a sentence and are not known by most as offenders than about known offenders who have served their sentence? For example, overseers knew that CC had committed CSA but still accepted him into the work and sent him to unsuspecting homes even on different continents. How many like that are still in the work and in people's homes? As long as there are no child protection guidelines and commitment from overseers to follow them, you can't even know who is sitting in your meeting or who is sleeping in your guest room. That to me is even more concerning. I have those concerns maja, however on a very basic practical level my first concern is my own children and how I can minimise the risk to them. This is what I was hinting at: should concerned parents demand church-wide guidelines that would prevent future cover-ups of offenses and known offenders being sent to their meetings and homes without their permission? Right now, it seems that you as a regular professing person would not be very likely to even know if there was a known offender in your meeting since the friends were instructed to not report until recently (speaking for in North America - in Australia things seem to be worse). Could be even that your chances of having an unknown offender are even higher than having a known offender in your meeting. Does that concern you as a parent? Do you think that that culture should or can be changed? |
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Post by rs on Jul 29, 2014 15:10:41 GMT -5
I have those concerns maja, however on a very basic practical level my first concern is my own children and how I can minimise the risk to them. This is what I was hinting at: should concerned parents demand church-wide guidelines that would prevent future cover-ups of offenses and known offenders being sent to their meetings and homes without their permission? The simple answer to this is yes, absolutely, however the demanding does not necessarily result in expected or appropriate action it would seem therefore parents have to be extremely proactive - I have to say here that I have not yet demanded, just raised awareness. |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 29, 2014 15:19:11 GMT -5
I have those concerns maja, however on a very basic practical level my first concern is my own children and how I can minimise the risk to them. This is what I was hinting at: should concerned parents demand church-wide guidelines that would prevent future cover-ups of offenses and known offenders being sent to their meetings and homes without their permission? Right now, it seems that you as a regular professing person would not be very likely to even know if there was a known offender in your meeting since the friends were instructed to not report until recently (speaking for in North America - in Australia things seem to be worse). Could be even that your chances of having an unknown offender are even higher than having a known offender in your meeting. Does that concern you as a parent? Do you think that that culture should or can be changed? missed your edit - Of course it concerns me as a parent!! Relying on 'word of mouth' or 'gossip' really isn't good enough - and as for change, it definitely should be changed - as for can be - I don't know, it seems some folk are still reluctant to express when things concern them, and workers are certainly (here anyway) reluctant to discuss these sort of concerns even when they are raised. |
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Post by mdm on Jul 29, 2014 16:51:15 GMT -5
As long as there are no child protection guidelines and commitment from overseers to follow them, you can't even know who is sitting in your meeting or who is sleeping in your guest room. That to me is even more concerning. And even if there are guidelines that people say they will follow, can you trust that an offender will follow them? It seems to me that the main question is whether the overseers and F&W's in general can be trusted to follow the hypothetical guidelines, not whether offenders can be trusted to follow them. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2014 17:39:14 GMT -5
It was not a win or lose situation. I actually wanted to know why you felt like you do and where the reason for feeling like that was rooted. Rational - are you a father? (for some reason I think you're a man!!) Or a grandfather? Both! There are so many things that one can control but you cannot control what people think about you or your children. Even given what Scott revealed about IH, I am certain that if i knew there was a convicted CSA offender at a gathering I would be able to keep my children safe. As some have said - "Sure they would be safe in the meeting but suppose they went....." and spyn hypothetical situations where a child might be hurt. With the logic you have put forth you would be hard pressed to ride in a train, bus, or plane where you could be 1005 certain that there was not an offender or potential offender. I can appreciate keeping your children safe but at times I have seen my grandchildren run on the sidewalk and, although I warn them, they have found out the hard way (several times)what happens when they fall. I could prevent them from running or avoid everything but soft surfaces but they are children and life is always a risk. Will sitting in a room with a convicted offender harm them? Should you let him tuck them into bed? You are (I am guessing) intelligent. At least intelligent enough to put your thoughts clearly on a message board. I am guessing your and your children would be fine in the situation described. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 18:23:19 GMT -5
we have at least one sex offender in our gospel meetings(i dont know if he goes to sunday mornings)everyone knows him and treats him okay. i myself have shaken hands with him numerous times. he doesn't go near children as far as i can see.[/quote] Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person?[/quote] no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... |
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Post by stevnz on Jul 29, 2014 19:33:49 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2014 20:49:33 GMT -5
we have at least one sex offender in our gospel meetings(i dont know if he goes to sunday mornings)everyone knows him and treats him okay. i myself have shaken hands with him numerous times. he doesn't go near children as far as i can see. Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person? I was told that I don't understand how meetings work. On the other hand, information has been released about very different behavior by IH. |
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mira
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Post by mira on Jul 30, 2014 2:22:21 GMT -5
we have at least one sex offender in our gospel meetings(i dont know if he goes to sunday mornings)everyone knows him and treats him okay. i myself have shaken hands with him numerous times. he doesn't go near children as far as i can see. Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person?[/quote] no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... [/quote] You are naïve - I know of many incidents that happened right under the noses of the parents. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 7:27:21 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2014 10:12:30 GMT -5
You are naïve - I know of many incidents that happened right under the noses of the parents. If this is the case, child abuse happening in a social situation with multiple people present, no amount of guidelines in the world will prevent the abuse. If children are being abused right "under the noses of the parents" it is time for a serious talk with the parents regarding their observation of the children and their education of their children regarding personal space issues. Scott mentioned the abuse of children in social settings. The onlt prevention for this is educating the children regarding their personal space and empowering them to say "No" to any adult and communicate with their parents/guardians without fear of negative repercussions. And, of course, the parents need to have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for the safety of their children. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 13:00:41 GMT -5
we have at least one sex offender in our gospel meetings(i dont know if he goes to sunday mornings)everyone knows him and treats him okay. i myself have shaken hands with him numerous times. he doesn't go near children as far as i can see. Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person? no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... [/quote] You are naïve - I know of many incidents that happened right under the noses of the parents.[/quote] i find that hard to believe unless the parents are collaborating with the abuser.... |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 30, 2014 13:05:30 GMT -5
Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person? no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... [/quote] i find that hard to believe unless the parents are collaborating with the abuser.... [/quote] [/b] Is it not enough that the offender may be looking at the children and thinking about what they'd like to do?? |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2014 13:05:55 GMT -5
Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person? no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... In a way, they are... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 13:14:36 GMT -5
no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... i find that hard to believe unless the parents are collaborating with the abuser.... [/quote] [/b] Is it not enough that the offender may be looking at the children and thinking about what they'd like to do??[/quote] i am more focused on action rather than thought, we all have evil thoughts now and again...and yes some thoughts can be sin as Jesus says in the comment on adultery in the heart... |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2014 13:14:58 GMT -5
no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... Is it not enough that the offender may be looking at the children and thinking about what they'd like to do?? Do you think this happens? I will assume that you are a female with sexual drives and desires. Do you sit and look at males in the meeting thinking about what you'd like to do? Why do you think anyone would be any different than you are? |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 30, 2014 14:42:30 GMT -5
Is it not enough that the offender may be looking at the children and thinking about what they'd like to do?? Do you think this happens? I will assume that you are a female with sexual drives and desires. Do you sit and look at males in the meeting thinking about what you'd like to do? Why do you think anyone would be any different than you are? [/quot maybe 'what they'd like to do' was too strong a statement - but as regular adults I guess we all look at other regular adults and think things like 'nice dress' 'nice hair' 'nice smile' or whatever - I wouldn't want to put my children in a position where I was aware someone could be thinking the same of them in an inappropriate way... |
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rs
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Post by rs on Jul 30, 2014 14:44:21 GMT -5
....going to have to figure out this whole 'quote' thing, not working for me...
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2014 14:52:21 GMT -5
Do you think this happens? I will assume that you are a female with sexual drives and desires. Do you sit and look at males in the meeting thinking about what you'd like to do? Why do you think anyone would be any different than you are? maybe 'what they'd like to do' was too strong a statement - but as regular adults I guess we all look at other regular adults and think things like 'nice dress' 'nice hair' 'nice smile' or whatever - I wouldn't want to put my children in a position where I was aware someone could be thinking the same of them in an inappropriate way... The question really is - Do you want to limit your activity/behavior because of what you think someone else might be thinking. Going back to my comment: Why do you think anyone would be any different than you are?although some of these offenders are/were attracted to children it does not mean that their thinking about the people they are attracted to is any different than your thoughts about the individuals you are attracted to. Of course, I really don't know what you think about when you are sitting in meeting - Perhaps I don't want to know! |
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2014 14:53:37 GMT -5
....going to have to figure out this whole 'quote' thing, not working for me... You clipped an "e]" from a closing quote and that upset the whole post. |
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mira
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Post by mira on Jul 30, 2014 15:09:32 GMT -5
Wally, I don't know if you have children, or what age they are, but would you have them shake hands with this person? no i dont have any children...i would only let them if they were under my supervision though...i honestly don't expect much would happen at a gospel meeting or sunday morning meeting with adults present....now if he approached my home that would be another matter... You are naïve - I know of many incidents that happened right under the noses of the parents.[/quote] i find that hard to believe unless the parents are collaborating with the abuser....[/quote] That is offensive. Do you know any parents that would collaborate with someone who is abusing their child? I suggest you rethink that comment. Abusers are crafty and in the 2x2 religion they often have full trust. I would say the parents are "trusting" the abuser (rather than collaborating with). |
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