New! Elizabeth Burke's Blog re Cooneyites-Ireland

[CherieKropp]

Elizabeth Burke wrote me:

As someone who lives in Ireland, I have been researching these groups, because of a recent invitation to one of their Bible studies. I live in a lonely rural area of the Republic of Ireland where most people are R.C. and when you get an invitation to a Bible study--of course you are going to investigate it.  However, as a Christian who trusted the Lord many years ago, I had only previously heard of the Cooneyites but never researched the finer details behind their existence until now.

My blogpost and very recent discussion with someone (obviously a member) who defends the group can be viewed at:
Elizabeth Burke's Blog - “Reading the Bible Together” – The Cooneyites Advertise in Local Newspapers

The first 2 paragraphs of her blog are:

Just last week I noticed this small advertisement in our local free newspaper: “Reading the Bible Together. Anyone interested please contact… (telephone number)”

After reading this, curiosity got the better of me and I decided to ring the phone number in the advertisement. The lady who replied was most polite and friendly but very reluctant indeed to tell me with whom she was associated. Having discovered that I preferred the Authorised Version of the Bible and the old hymns, she whole-heartedly agreed with me, telling me about where their weekly Bible study was held. After giving me an invitation to come along, I discovered that it is held in a parish community centre in the town.

Read the rest with comments added by a woman I assume is a worker:
readywriterpublications.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/reading-the-bible-together-the-cooneyites-advertise-in-local-newspapers/

[Deleted]

interesting i didn't know they they don't believe in the diety of Christ...who do they think he is? an angel? a holy man?

[Deleted]

It's a bit difficult figuring out just who is the Pharisee in this story:

Just last week I noticed this small advertisement in our local free newspaper: “Reading the Bible Together. Anyone interested please contact… (telephone number)”

After reading this, curiosity got the better of me and I decided to ring the phone number in the advertisement. The lady who replied was most polite and friendly but very reluctant indeed to tell me with whom she was associated. Having discovered that I preferred the Authorised Version of the Bible and the old hymns, she whole-heartedly agreed with me, telling me about where their weekly Bible study was held. After giving me an invitation to come along, I discovered that it is held in a parish community centre in the town.

At this point I was still curious about her background. I told her of my own experience and of how I had come to ask the Lord Jesus Christ into my heart around 35 years ago. After that there was an awkward silence and I instinctively knew that the lady did not regard this wonderful change in my life as something to rejoice about. On the contrary I had the distinct impression that she did not think that it was valid at all.

“Yes, well, about our Bible Study…” she went on, completely ignoring the simplicity and the wonder of something which meant more than life itself to me. A true Christian, on the other hand, would have immediately warmed to this reference to my testimony and denominational differences would have melted into insignificance as we would go on to testify of our love for the Saviour.

Because of this experience, I am now reluctant to label myself as ‘non-denominational,’ although I can understand the thinking behind a phrase I once heard used: “denominations are abominations.” I suppose that denominations, although they came into existence following dissension amongst the brethren and doctrinal differences since the early church, are one issue – but cults are quite another. “A cult,” I have heard it said, (certainly of pseudo-Christian cults) “is a group of people who follow one man and his misinterpretation of the Bible.”

After listening to her enthusiastically give me this invitation to the Bible study, strangely I remembered the information that I had read about Cooneyites and decided to ask her was she associated with them.

I didn’t expect her to be so straight with me… “Well some people refer to us as that,” she said, “but we don’t call ourselves this.”

Professing to follow “the Jesus Way,” the Cooneyites concentrate on the life of Jesus but not on His precious shed blood for the sins of mankind; like other erroneous systems of belief this cult has sadly strayed into the path of ‘salvation by works.’ While there is no better example to follow than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in all our attitudes, thoughts, words and actions, it is not by attempting to follow His life in our own strength, that we are saved – but by repenting and putting our trust in His shed blood at Calvary, in the knowledge that He has risen, is alive in heaven today and ever lives to make intercession for us. Only with faith as the sure foundation upon which we stand, can we ever be “Christlike” in His strength.

There is so much more that I could say about the aspects of this cult which was founded in Ireland in 1897 by William Irvine, who was originally an evangelist with the Faith Mission. Cooneyites have also been known as Irvingites, Go-preachers, Two-by-two’s, Workers and the Nameless House Church or Christian Convention Church. However they prefer to call themselves “The Way,” “The Jesus Way” or “The Truth.”

The lady I spoke to worked with another lady friend and from what I could discern they were both middle-aged and unmarried. “I felt led recently to work along the east coast of Ireland,” she had told me.

‘Led by whom?’ I wondered. (The Cooneyites do not believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit, in the Trinity or in the deity of Christ.)

It has also been said that they even go so far as to declare that the Bible is a “Dead Book” unless it is “made to live” through the mouth of one of their preachers

“You will come along, won’t you?” the lady pleaded with me towards the end of our conversation.

“You know,” I said, avoiding her question, “at the end of the day you and I and everyone else in this world… really what we want is the knowledge that we will definitely at the end of this life go to heaven. It is so wonderful to have that assurance.”

“Yes…” she replied hesitantly, “we can but only hope in God’s mercy…”

Today I pray for that lady and for the opportunity to perhaps speak to her again, even if it is only over the telephone – and I also pray that those souls who are genuinely seeking will not be snared by this cult which like many others is weaving its web in an Ireland where unwary people are weary of hypocrisy in the traditional teachings of a major system of idolatry which has betrayed the young and old.

[Deleted]

(The Cooneyites do not believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit, in the Trinity or in the deity of Christ.)

i think you just repeated my question nathan...

[Deleted]

number 1....

[irvinegrey]

We need to distinguish between ‘Cooneyites’ and ‘two by twos’. When Cooney was excommunicated in 1928 there were a number who followed Cooney but these have diminished to only a handful. The movement that this blogger refers to are the two by twos who are often erroneously called ‘Cooneyites.’

Because the two by twos do not have any written statement of faith trying to pin down what they actually believe is very difficult. After researching the two by two movement for over three years before writing my thesis, “Two by Two” – the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I was awarded a Master of Philosophy, Queens University, Belfast.

I subsequently published my thesis as a book last year. www.irvnegrey.com. Although my final conclusion was that this movement is a cult of Christianity I do believe that within the movement there are those who are genuinely born again but sadly they seem to be a small minority.
Generally they do reject the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity, although not all do. A good test of what they believe is to ask if they will affirm that Jesus Christ was God come in the flesh.

[1] In the beginning was the Word [Jesus Christ], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men (John 1:1-4 ESV) [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:14-18 ESV) [11] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, [12] training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, [13] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [14] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:11-14 ESV)

[Deleted]

The two by twos do have written doctrine: they accept the bible as their written doctrine.

So if you have difficulty "pinning down" 2x2 doctrine, blame the bible.

I think a better master's thesis would have been this:

"how the 2x2's prove that the bible alone is not sufficient for doctrine".

[snow]

Mar 23, 2014 12:32:09 GMT -5 irvinegrey said:

We need to distinguish between ‘Cooneyites’ and ‘two by twos’. When Cooney was excommunicated in 1928 there were a number who followed Cooney but these have diminished to only a handful. The movement that this blogger refers to are the two by twos who are often erroneously called ‘Cooneyites.’

Because the two by twos do not have any written statement of faith trying to pin down what they actually believe is very difficult. After researching the two by two movement for over three years before writing my thesis, “Two by Two” – the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I was awarded a Master of Philosophy, Queens University, Belfast.

I subsequently published my thesis as a book last year. www.irvnegrey.com. Although my final conclusion was that this movement is a cult of Christianity I do believe that within the movement there are those who are genuinely born again but sadly they seem to be a small minority.
Generally they do reject the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity, although not all do. A good test of what they believe is to ask if they will affirm that Jesus Christ was God come in the flesh.

[1] In the beginning was the Word [Jesus Christ], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men (John 1:1-4 ESV) [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:14-18 ESV) [11] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, [12] training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, [13] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [14] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:11-14 ESV)

From where I'm standing, all religions are cults then. They all use brain washing to make the people believe there is a God. Then they tell them there is a hell if you don't obey this God. Then they say, but don't worry, just do what we say God wants you to do and you will be saved from the hell we made up in the first place. Right!!

[irvinegrey]

I decided that this was worth looking into in more detail and on my way back home from Dublin on Wednesday I stopped off and met with Elizabeth Burke. I was deeply impressed by her simplicity and strong Christian faith. I have no doubt that her purpose for making contact when she read the advert in the newspaper was without any hidden agenda and a desire to have fellowship with fellow believers.

I know both who both the workers are and have heard them speak at various conventions. Elizabeth was rightly concerned about their evasiveness when it came to answering her questions and their lack of transparency when it came to saying what they actually believe. However, this is a trait that I recognise and experienced during my research. One was quite likely to get an answer but it was to a different question!

The secrecy of the 2x2s when asked a simple question regarding their faith and what they believe is breath taking and a far cry from what the apostle Peter told Christians to do. 'But in your hearts honour Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect’ 1 Peter 3:15

Paul had no difficulty summarising the Gospel when he wrote to the church in Corinth: ‘Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures’ 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Of course the 2x2s will respond with ‘we believe the Bible’ as indeed every other one who claims to be Christian will say, but when it comes to explaining what they believe the Bible teaches, a questioner is usually met with silence or an inane or rambling, incoherent response. The early church recognised the importance of stating clearly what it believed and they gave us the Apostles’ Creed which is a good summary of the Christian faith as we find it in Scriptures.

THE APOSTLES' CREED

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary: Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: The third day he rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead: I believe in the Holy Ghost: I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints: The forgiveness of sins: The resurrection of the body: And the life everlasting. Amen.

[julio]

(The Cooneyites do not believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit, in the Trinity or in the deity of Christ.)

I too wondered if this meant the Cooneyites or the 'friends and workers'. I don't know where the writer got her information, but it is 100% wrong. Just this past weekend we heard about the leading of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8), the Trinity (John 1) and the deity of Christ (John 10-11): all three in the same gospel meeting.

[Mary]

What did you hear about the trinity in your Gospel meeting? Did you get the feeling that the worker who was preaching about it believed in it?