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Post by christiansburg on Feb 2, 2014 12:45:24 GMT -5
Let's be clear and honest about dark spots on the face of the earth. No doubt the 2x2 fellowship has had a multitude of problems. But remember across the spectrum of religion there is hardly a darker spot than the RCC. The 2x2's have not slaughter and tortured millions of people in the name of Christ as did those who followed the dictates of the Pope. The problems of the 2x2's, as mentioned, only cover a small span of 115 years. The abuses of the RCC cover many centuries. They truly have blood on their hands. I do think the RCC is trying to right some of those wrongs but they can't change history and neither can the 2x2's. This is a worthwhile principle I try to remember: "you can never justify your own bad behaviour by pointing out worse behaviour by someone else." The point has been missed. The previous comments were not an attempt to justify bad behavior merely to point out what others have done. My belief is that pointing it out is far different than justifying it.
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Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 13:34:08 GMT -5
The majority of 2x2s have never heard of the Waldensians and certainly do not link themselves with them from time past. That may well be true. Its also probably true that the majority of the Waldensians have never heard of the 2x2s and certainly do not link themselves with them from time past.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 14:14:37 GMT -5
This is a worthwhile principle I try to remember: "you can never justify your own bad behaviour by pointing out worse behaviour by someone else." The point has been missed. The previous comments were not an attempt to justify bad behavior merely to point out what others have done. My belief is that pointing it out is far different than justifying it. Why would anyone be interested in pointing out the bad behaviour of the RCC except to make ourselves feel better that we aren't as bad? I do it occasionally in order to try to learn the causes of the bad behaviour. For instance, if the RCC is doing similar bad things to us such as the cover up of CSA, then if we can learn why they do it, we may gain some understanding as to why we do it. Or similarly, if others are doing it and managed to correct it, then maybe we can figure out how to correct it too.
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Post by snow on Feb 2, 2014 16:33:51 GMT -5
Lets also be clear and honest about the fact that one dark spot does not justify another. The RCC is far from the only so called Christian fellowship with blod on its shoulders -- The Swedish Luthern church has a history of enormous unchristian activity as well. This board has its focus on 2x2ism -- and the enormous injustice and suffering that it is responsible for. Many other groups are more or less in the process of coming to terms with the failings in their history --- Not so with 2x2ism . 2x2ism is still so stubornly proud of the suffering that it causes -- and still on-going in the corruption that it is promoting. This is the scary aspect of 2x2ism that few other groups in our modern world are guilty of today. This board may have its focus on the 2x2 and the enormous injustice and suffering it has caused. But don't overlook that not only are other groups coming to terms with their offenses so are the 2x2's. The dismissal of some rules and the dismissal of some workers. But it all takes time. I think the worst issue now is the fact that they just find it hard to talk about it. There are some proud ones among us who will clam up when you want to discuss these things but there are others who are dealing with it. At present they seem to be in the minority but transformation is always a slow process. I also think those who are coming to grips with our problems cannot be classified as being extremely proud. I think it will be awhile before things are as we want them. And then again it may take the return of Christ to really right all the wrong that has been done by all who claim the name of Christ. This is actually a fairly interesting insight. All young religions do seem to do a lot of damage in the beginning until they sort things out. The RCC have done horrific things and now we see Islam following along in that path. Because both of them are very large they have the capacity to do a great deal more damage than the very young religion of the 2x2 sect. Hopefully they will work out their problems in time and become a gentler more inspirational group in time. Thankfully they are not large like the other two religions so the extent of their damage will be less extensive though not less damaging for those who have been effected by them.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 2, 2014 17:58:25 GMT -5
Lets also be clear and honest about the fact that one dark spot does not justify another. The RCC is far from the only so called Christian fellowship with blod on its shoulders -- The Swedish Luthern church has a history of enormous unchristian activity as well. This board has its focus on 2x2ism -- and the enormous injustice and suffering that it is responsible for. Many other groups are more or less in the process of coming to terms with the failings in their history --- Not so with 2x2ism . 2x2ism is still so stubornly proud of the suffering that it causes -- and still on-going in the corruption that it is promoting. This is the scary aspect of 2x2ism that few other groups in our modern world are guilty of today. This board may have its focus on the 2x2 and the enormous injustice and suffering it has caused. But don't overlook that not only are other groups coming to terms with their offenses so are the 2x2's. The dismissal of some rules and the dismissal of some workers. But it all takes time. I think the worst issue now is the fact that they just find it hard to talk about it. There are some proud ones among us who will clam up when you want to discuss these things but there are others who are dealing with it. At present they seem to be in the minority but transformation is always a slow process. I also think those who are coming to grips with our problems cannot be classified as being extremely proud. I think it will be awhile before things are as we want them. And then again it may take the return of Christ to really right all the wrong that has been done by all who claim the name of Christ. You reminded me of this scripture: 1 Timothy 4 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) 4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 11:22:54 GMT -5
Robert Darling (1905 worker from Ireland) story... He fills in more details of WI sister story. From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005
Hi Nathan,While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story: One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling went into the ministry in Ireland 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.).
During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.)
In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish."
I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. RGR, December, 2005 OK, back to this subject.... I think we might be able to put this "Sister" story to bed...maybe not, but here are two major holes in this account that we read above; First: I'll re-quote the important lines in the story above: "One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling" Robert Darling died in 1970. So of this account supposedly took in the early 1970's, he was either dead or almost dead and most likely wasn't taking walks in the middle of a windy night all by himself. Second: "He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) " Here is what Wiki says about religious freedom in Switzerland during the time that these people supposedly left that area, moved families over 800 miles across the English Channel, due to "religious persecution". "Freedom of religion[edit] Full freedom of religion has been guaranteed since the revised Swiss Constitution of 1874 (Article 49). During the Old Swiss Confederacy, there had been no de facto freedom of religion, with persecution of Anabaptists in particular well into the 18th century. Swiss Jews had been given full political rights in 1866, although their right to settle freely was implemented as late as 1879 in the canton of Aargau. The current Swiss Constitution of 1999 makes explicit both positive and negative religious freedom in Article 15, paragraph 3--which asserts that every person has the right to adhere to a religious confession and to attend religious education—and paragraph 4, which asserts that nobody can be forced to either adhere to a religious confession or to attend religious education, thus explicitly asserting the right of apostasy from a previously held religious belief." It seems that this story is made up? There was no religious persecution during this time. So....Can we put the "sister" story to bed?
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 12:19:48 GMT -5
Believe it or not, the WI Sister story has grown some legs. I have now heard it from a couple of other Friends. The reason I like discussing it, is the more its discussed, the more you realize how much its false. What convinces me that its false is not the ones trying to discredit it, but to the contrary, the ones trying to convince us that its true. I keep waiting for some type of evidence that would bring even a little credibility to the story. Like Hberry and CD said, its just a matter of time before we hear about how his sister "Dorthy" brought it to WI now. Thanks RAM! RGR letter was written to me had similar information when George Gittens wrote to me in person. So, RGR and George Gittens stories match.From George Gittens: 12/28/2001 Hi Nathan, Yours was of great interest. Here is a little outline of what Robert Darling (worker from Ireland in 1905) told me. I also talked to some of the friends who had witnessed William Irvine's baptism in the Truth where he had been a member and a preacher, but he disregarded this. He preached some for the Faith Mission, but renounced it upon hearing the Truth. Robert Darling knew William and also the folks he heard first. William Irvine's sister came from Scotland and went to work in someone's house on a farm in Ireland. When Sunday morning she came into a room, was set up for worship. The folks of the home said they had worship service in their home every Sunday A.M. and a few others came. William's sister wanted to know how this started? The folks said their ancestors had heard homeless preachers somewhere near Switzerland and in the Alps. They embraced the faith, and a church meeting was started in their home by these homeless preachers. When the folks had to leave that area due to persecutions, and came to Ireland, they continued the service in their home. William's sister was religious, but dissatisfied and seeking God for truth, so she embraces this faith, as was convicted it was the true way of God. She later returned to her homeland and told her brother William Irvine, who was extremely interested, as he was dissatisfied with the Church. He and his sister came to visit with these folks, and upon hearing their testimony, recognized it as scriptural and was also convicted it was God's true way. He later had his calling by the Spirit of God to go into the harvest field as Jesus taught his disciples. Leaving all and going out by faith. Later, I (George Gittins) talked to Garret Hughes (an older worker) whose parents professed through William Irvine. He had mentioned something about Switzerland concerning Truth being preserved. Garrett said if Robert Darling told you this, it must be true, as he was there and knew first hand how this happened. I (George Gittins) talked to old Mr. Holland who was nearly 100 years old, and his folks had told him the same as Robert related. We are glad for this first hand account, not that it matters so much, for Jesus said by their fruits you should know it. When one has the fruit we need not worry so much about the tree and its origin. However, I found this most interesting. Yours in Christ, George Gittins FYI This is why I used Switzerland, and not France or Germany.
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 12:26:50 GMT -5
JohnD. wrote: It seems that this story is made up? There was no religious persecution during this time. ~~~ You need to study and read the Vaudois=Paul's own followers church history! The REAL Vaudois/Waldenses Church history NOT the ones/smaller groups, that broke away from them but kept the name Waldenses in 15-21th century. These ex-Vaudois became one of many Protestant denominations. Like the one by the name Chris, who posted on the Truth message board awhile back.
The REAL Vaudois from Italy, 68-1800 A.D. were persecuted by the Romans Catholic Church in Rome in the 3rd century, so they fled to the Alps, mountain in Switzerland, and other countries throughout Europe. When the Vaudois apostles/workers preached the gospel in France, Spain, England, they found many brethren like them who did NOT yield to the authority, and power of the RCC. They were persecuted, killed, slaughters by the hundreds, thousands, and millions for almost 1800 yrs.... They were persecuted and fled to many countries even in the 18th.... So, William Irv. sister is NOT a fairy tale or made up by Robert Darling, George Gittens and George Walker.Three things; 1. Now your staking claims to other religions again. I have never heard any workers claim other religions. 2. You mention the dates above that go through 1800 A.D. This sister thing would have happened around 1896. Different time periods. The story said "these people moved from Switzerland because of religious persecution". 3 What about Robert Darling being dead at the time when he supposivly told this story?
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 12:48:36 GMT -5
3 What about Robert Darling being dead at the time when he supposivly told this story? What are you talking about? Robert told William Irvine sister story in 1967-69.... He died after 1970... We don't know exactly which yr... but for sure in the early 1970.
Does anyone on TMB know the exact month, and year that Robert Darling passed away?
I'm talking about this from a post from you (above); One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling"He was dead. How could he tell the story? "1905 Darling, Robert (Rob, Bob) - from Scotland. Died 1970, buried in Buenos Aires in British Cemetery in same grave with Jack Jackson; PIONEERED work in Alberta, Canada with Noble Stinson in 1907. Shown in Iowa in 1915-16; in Minnesota 1919-23; in South America on 1923-29 Workers Lists. "
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 13:58:26 GMT -5
He was dead. How could he tell the story? "1905 Darling, Robert (Rob, Bob) - from Scotland. Died 1970, buried in Buenos Aires in British Cemetery in same grave with Jack Jackson; PIONEERED work in Alberta, Canada with Noble Stinson in 1907. Shown in Iowa in 1915-16; in Minnesota 1919-23; in South America on 1923-29 Workers Lists. " ~~ Where did you get this information? Who wrote it.... Does this person has the actual day and years of Robert Darling's death that we can look up ourselves or this 1970 just a guess, of whoever wrote it? Do you know, JD?
Somebody, did NOT get their year, right.... The point is still remain the same! George Gittens did talk to Robert Darling face to face! in 1970s.... Now, we need to find out the Exact month and year that Robert Darling died... I believe George Gitten had talked to Robert Darling at convention in the early 1970s and Robert Darling died a few years later in 1970s
I'll find out for your Nathan, if it will make a difference. Will it make a difference if I prove that the above "Died 1970" is accurate? Or will I spend time tracking this down, only for you to come up with something else?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 14:31:41 GMT -5
I'll find out for your Nathan, if it will make a difference. Will it make a difference if I prove that the above "Died 1970" is accurate? Or will I spend time tracking this down, only for you to come up with something else? Like I mention in my previous posts that Robert Darling and George Gittens had talked face to face in 1970s. And in 1960s George Walker mention about William Irvine sister in W. Virgina to many workers. Please, find out the actual/exact date and which year in the 1970s that Robert died. It will be good to know/find out which Year in the 70s that Robert Died.And in the long run, and in the minds of most people.......Irvine's sisters role is immaterial. What is at issue, is the lies perpetuated throughout the years that the fellowship went back to the shores of Galilee, and had no earthly founder/finder/twig/starting point. Trying to deflect the argument to a specific year of time or person means nothing to me. What matters to me is that I was lied to by workers who knew about the beginnings, and that they deliberately lied (or at the very least misrepresented) about the truth fellowship.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 14:57:22 GMT -5
Important to who Nathan? You?
It isn't important to me at all. Not one little teensy weensy bit.
What is important to me is the lies and coverups that have occurred.
And I don't see why it is so important to you. You have tried to prove apostolic succession using a variety of means that don't have a link to the fellowship, tried to cast doubt on the research of others, and continue to try to somehow show that the year and who started the fellowship have some bearing on why people continue to leave the fellowship.
Just take a look at the Vietnam thread, and you can see the same reasons there that come up in most reasons that people leave:
.....we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lie, untrue, injustice, without unity and love.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 14:59:47 GMT -5
I've got to hand it to you (Scott Ross) and JD for sticking to this. It has helped me understand better how determined many are in the fellowship to believe this goes all the way back. It wasn't hard for me to let go of that thought, but apparently, that isn't the universal response. It's been a real eye opener for me.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 15:08:24 GMT -5
In regard to the original reason for this thread "HOW INFORMATION CAUSES PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE FELLOWSHIP"
I believe that it is less what information us 'exes' have to say, and more about what information the senior workers have to say that causes people to leave.
After all, any information we share is based on our experiences, and those experiences are going to be somewhat unique to us as individuals. Or, in regard to what is listed on the various sites, it is the words and actions of workers that are listed there.
And then, all the professing people have to do is discuss the issues they read or hear about with their local workers, and decide for themselves what is true (and unique) for them.
It is the workers words and actions (which in reality leads up to the senior workers) that cause people to leave.
There are a LOT of workers out there who are wonderful caring people. The problems facing the fellowship lie squarely on the shoulders of the senior workers. By 'senior workers', I am referring to the overseers, as they are the ones who make all the man made rules in regard to the fellowship. I am not referring to the senior sister workers, as while some of them might be in positions to influence the overseers, they are bound by the decisions made by the overseers.
And, as is being shown in the Vietnam thread, the members are only bound by the decisions of the overseers if the members of the fellowship follow those decisions.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 15:16:00 GMT -5
Important to who Nathan? You? It isn't important to me at all. Not one little teensy weensy bit. What is important to me is the lies and coverups that have occurred. And I don't see why it is so important to you. You have tried to prove apostolic succession using a variety of means that don't have a link to the fellowship, tried to cast doubt on the research of others, and continue to try to somehow show that the year and who started the fellowship have some bearing on why people continue to leave the fellowship. Just take a look at the Vietnam thread, and you can see the same reasons there that come up in most reasons that people leave: .....we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lie, untrue, injustice, without unity and love. I don't see the workers that I know for many years, act and behave badly like Darrel T. and Lyle S... So, should I leave the 2x2s fellowship because these two workers unwise behaviors in VN? I don't think so! They'll get what they deserve in the day of Judgment. Jesus said to Peter, who was wondering what is going to happen to so and so, He told peter, "You follow me." So, should I leave the 2x2s fellowship because these two workers unwise behaviors in VN?No, my opinion is that you should dedicate your efforts to eradicating the fellowship of those senior workers who are destroying the fellowship. Take a look at those senior workers who are responsible for what happened in Alberta. Note how many of those who remained in Alberta now don't trust and respect the overseers, and even more importantly, look at where those responsible for that mess are at now......... Yeah....... the same names ruining another area of the fellowship. This is also happening in other areas of the world. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the senior workers around the world. Gospel meeting attendance is down, workers are the ones that are starting to be shunned, and a lot of those that stay do so because of what? Because they love their local fellowship meetings and the people they have grown up with and meet with. At the same time, these same people are reaching out to other Christians, and they are doing so because of the understanding that it isn't the church one attends that is of importance, it is being a member of the Church (capital 'C' meaning body of Christ) and that regardless of denomination we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 15:22:52 GMT -5
Just a few more comments on this.
Not meaning to make this personal toward you, Nathan, but just giving you my observations here.... You are also in the category of people who skip gospel meetings and the influence of the workers. In fact, you are in the category of all others who are more or less considered 'professing' who only get to a convention every year, or perhaps a special meeting or two as well, and that is about it.
I agree that they will get what they deserve on the day of judgement. So will I, and so will you. However, they are now also getting what they deserve here in this life. The statement 'you reap what you sow' isn't just in regard to after physical death.
Do you feel that you follow the teachings/leadings of the overseers?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 15:56:48 GMT -5
Yeah..... same as me. Not sure of what you are saying here. I thought you believed in the Trinity Much like me. I don't have an overseer, but I communicate with some of them. I also email with a lot of friends and workers. I can say that I would love to be able to attend the Sunday morning meeting with our new friends in Vietnam. I think I would fit in pretty nicely with that group. I wouldn't understand what they were sharing (because of language barriers), but I would sure be able to feel the spirit of the meeting. I save my vacation time for uh...... oh that's right... I am retired now..... but I wouldn't mind cruising into convention on my motorcycle to see friends and family and take in a few meetings, and eat some convention stew!!!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 3, 2014 16:27:16 GMT -5
Like I mention in my previous posts that Robert Darling and George Gittens had talked face to face in 1970s. And in 1960s George Walker mention about William Irvine sister in W. Virgina to many workers. Please, find out the actual/exact date and which year in the 1970s that Robert died. It will be good to know/find out which Year in the 70s that Robert Died. Here you are... Robert Darling died 9 June 1970 in Buenos Aires, Argentina and is buried in the British cemetery portion of Chacarita cemetery in Buenos Aires. He was born 4 September 1883 in Gorebridge, Midlothian, Scotland, started in the work in 1905.
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 16:27:41 GMT -5
I'll find out for your Nathan, if it will make a difference. Will it make a difference if I prove that the above "Died 1970" is accurate? Or will I spend time tracking this down, only for you to come up with something else? Like I mention in my previous posts that Robert Darling and George Gittens had talked face to face in 1970s. And in 1960s George Walker mention about William Irvine sister in W. Virgina to many workers. Please, find out the actual/exact date and which year in the 1970s that Robert died. It will be good to know/find out which Year in the 70s that Robert Died.Do you mean which "month" in 1970? It doesn't say 1970s.....its says 1970...... the year 1970, Nathan, maybe you're reading things into it that you want to see.
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Post by jondough on Feb 3, 2014 17:04:25 GMT -5
Nathan,
Can you at least admit that the story that you posted about George Gittens telling of his run-in with Robert Darling in the early 1970's at Calloway, Nebraska convention couldn't be true because Robert Darling died in June 9, 1970 in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Also, it states that the family that had the meeting in their home, that William Irvine's sister was working as a domestic helper, left Switzerland due to religious persecution. There was no religious persecution during this time period in Switzerland.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 3, 2014 18:33:31 GMT -5
Just a few more comments on this. Not meaning to make this personal toward you, Nathan, but just giving you my observations here.... You are also in the category of people who skip gospel meetings and the influence of the workers. In fact, you are in the category of all others who are more or less considered 'professing' who only get to a convention every year, or perhaps a special meeting or two as well, and that is about it. I agree that they will get what they deserve on the day of judgement. So will I, and so will you. However, they are now also getting what they deserve here in this life. The statement 'you reap what you sow' isn't just in regard to after physical death. Do you feel that you follow the teachings/leadings of the overseers? I follow and adhere the teachings of Jesus First! then I will support and stand with any overseers or workers who following in the footsteps of Jesus teachings in the New Testament. I will NOT stand for any overseer who sweep CSA under the carpet today, will NOT support for the foreigner workers acting/behaving badly, unwisely in VN. Or teaching false doctrines in our fellowship such as The Trinity concept= God/Elohim/plural= The Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is NOT in Bible.
I keep in touch with my overseer, workers that I know in my state through emails. I'm on different of friends emails listing on the Internet, I have a world wide fellowship with the workers and friends through the Internet. I know what is going in many places, countries through my Internet friends and workers. I love attending Sunday morning worship meetings, gospel meetings, special meetings, Bible studies... But with my work schedule on the meetings days and personal situation/circumstances. I have saved my two weeks vacation for conventions and I am happy with that for now.
If my circumstances were different, I wouldn't hardly miss any of the workers, and fellowship meetings. So, I just do with the best under my current circumstances for now. However, I keep my relationship with God in good shape, constantly thinking about him everyday, working on my message board, spend time on TMB, having a job, given my wife and son attention, house works, etc... is a full time work.
You, me and all who are involved in God's work will be held accountable for all the things we have done on this earth. I Cor. 3:10-14 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. Well.... I see you edited your post after I had responded to it...... Anyhow, that is great passage you are quoting from. It is full of thoughts that pertain to this situation in Vietnam. For one, it points out just where we need to place our trust and belief, and it isn't in the ones who bring the gospel, but the one who the gospel is about: 1 Corinthians 3 King James Version (KJV) 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. Then it points our that we belong to God, not man or 'a method'. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.And where our foundation is 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.And how we are the living temple of God, and we are where the Spirit of God resides 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.I think it is evident as to where these people in Vietnam have been building on their faith. There are other good passages regarding where our faith and trust should be in regard to the foundation of the church body, such as: Ephesians 2
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
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Post by Gene on Feb 3, 2014 18:38:53 GMT -5
I don't really understand the quibble here. "One year in the early 1970s...(Robert Darling took a walk...)" and "...Robert Darling died in 1970..." have an intersection in time - most of 1970. It is feasible to imagine that RD took a walk in the early 1970s AND died in 1970.
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Post by Gene on Feb 3, 2014 18:42:17 GMT -5
Nathan, Can you at least admit that the story that you posted about George Gittens telling of his run-in with Robert Darling in the early 1970's at Calloway, Nebraska convention couldn't be true because Robert Darling died in June 9, 1970 in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Also, it states that the family that had the meeting in their home, that William Irvine's sister was working as a domestic helper, left Switzerland due to religious persecution. There was no religious persecution during this time period in Switzerland. Ah, now I get it. You're saying that Calloway, NE convention happened sometime after June 9, 1970?
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 3, 2014 18:53:55 GMT -5
It's spelled CallAway...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 19:21:19 GMT -5
Because I have no idea when the Callaway, NE convention is, I will assume like Gene that it must be after June. Have I missed that date somewhere in this thread?
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Post by Gene on Feb 3, 2014 19:29:21 GMT -5
Not 1970, but at least in 2013, RD COULD have attended a convention in June in Nebraska and died June 9 in Argentina (from www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_lists/conv2013-14.php)June 2013 1-4 Gloucestershire #2, Oxon. ..... England 1-4 Cumbria ....................... Scotland 6-9 Dunnville, ON .................. Canada 6-9 Seagrave, ON .................. Canada 6-9 Hotchkiss, CO ...................... USA 6-9 Post Falls, ID ....................... USA 6-9 Ronan, MT ......................... USA 7-9 Scottsbluff, NE ..................... USA
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 4, 2014 11:39:39 GMT -5
Someone B&R in NE has told me that best she recalls in the 1970's there were three conventions held in Nebraska and she attended all three. Antioch was in the summer and Callaway and York were held in September.
I am waiting/expecting a 2nd verification on the time for Callaway.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 4, 2014 11:46:01 GMT -5
I've got to hand it to you (Scott Ross) and JD for sticking to this. It has helped me understand better how determined many are in the fellowship to believe this goes all the way back. It wasn't hard for me to let go of that thought, but apparently, that isn't the universal response. It's been a real eye opener for me. It might just be a problem with human pride for the reason to hang onto it so tenaciously! It made me fell plumb stupid to think I had "believed" it as well as my family....but then it was part and parcel of the very fabric of our family by the time I was old enough to remember these things! Who wants to question that fabric of their family? Kind of like the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice, it's shame on me."
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