|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 11:46:55 GMT -5
Nathan said;
Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm not, this kind of twisting frustrates me to no end!
The only thing we have on record that I'm aware of is that he was "inspired" by his sister. Upon further investigation, we find out that his sister died an early death. It seems that her death is what inspired him to go preach with the Faith Mission.
Twisting that around to say that he heard "The Truth" from his sister" just completely looses credibility in my mind, and is grasping at straws to twist things around to fit into your own belief system. This type of twisting is why there are between 20 and 30 thousand denominations in the world today - many twisting things like this in order to explain why their one way is the only true way.
Why does it frustrate me? I'll explain why with a simple question; Would it frustrate you if someone were to find a way to twist things around in order to explain why your brother whom was born by your same parents, was NOT in fact your brother?
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 12:24:27 GMT -5
Nathan said; Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm not, this kind of twisting frustrates me to no end! The only thing we have on record that I'm aware of is that he was "inspired" by his sister. Upon further investigation, we find out that his sister died an early death. It seems that her death is what inspired him to go preach with the Faith Mission. Twisting that around to say that he heard "The Truth" from his sister" just completely looses credibility in my mind, and is grasping at straws to twist things around to fit into your own belief system. This type of twisting is why there are between 20 and 30 thousand denominations in the world today - many twisting things like this in order to explain why their one way is the only true way. Why does it frustrate me? I'll explain why with a simple question; Would it frustrate you if someone were to find a way to twist things around in order to explain why your brother whom was born by your same parents, was NOT in fact your brother? If you were to read John Long Journal again.... William Irvine did NOT stay as a Faith Mission preacher for very long. He started with them in 1895 then he became 2x2 worker in 1898 while he was with the Faith Mission until 1900. WI broke away from the Faith Mission group in 1900 and joined his his 2x2 band of workers. William Irvine sister made WI changed his mind and thinking! What we don't it yet.... When was the time frame she told him.Nathan, You missed the point; It doesn't say he heard it through her like you said in the first post that I mentioned. Now you said "she made his change his mind". Please quit making up stories. All we know is that he was inspired by his sister, and as I explained - it was her early death that most likely inspired him to go preach.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 12:36:09 GMT -5
God has given power to Both apostles and disciples/saints responsibility in sharing the word of God to everyone they come in contact with NOT just apostles. God gave the disciples/Saints to heal, perform miracles in the book of Acts such as Ananias, Philip the evangelists, and Stephen. Nathan, in these two sentences you've just explained one reason why the overseers' church is not the one-true-way. In most places the workers stay, at least in Western countries, even the people next door wouldn't know that they are evangelists.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 12:37:15 GMT -5
If you were to read John Long Journal again.... William Irvine did NOT stay as a Faith Mission preacher for very long. He started with them in 1895 then he became 2x2 worker in 1898 while he was with the Faith Mission until 1900. WI broke away from the Faith Mission group in 1900 and joined his his 2x2 band of workers. William Irvine sister made WI changed his mind and thinking! What we don't it yet.... When was the time frame she told him. Nathan, You missed the point; It doesn't say he heard it through her like you said in the first post that I mentioned. Now you said "she made his change his mind". Please quit making up stories. All we know is that he was inspired by his sister, and as I explained - it was her early death that most likely inspired him to go preach. Just reviewing a bit of history illustrates what you're saying, JD. Other men have had their lives turned around and been moved to go preach due to a family death...and all without any need to create apostolic succession. I imagine we've all been moved to have a more eternal focus in our daily life by the death of someone close to us.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 12:37:40 GMT -5
If the dates are correct, his sister's death likely inspired him to turn to God, which he did later through Rev.John McNeill later in 1893(?). Given the timing, I doubt she inspired him to go preaching, let alone go preaching in the 2x2 method. The inspiration for the 2x2 method came in his Matt10 study in 1898(?) and no doubt from his Faith Mission experience which was very close to the 2x2 method. The inspiration for meeting in the home most likely came from the Prayer Union meetings from the Faith Mission.
I would suggest that the biggest influence on F&W methodology today was the Faith Mission, tweaked by the Matt10 study.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 12:38:29 GMT -5
If you were to read John Long Journal again.... William Irvine did NOT stay as a Faith Mission preacher for very long. He started with them in 1895 then he became 2x2 worker in 1898 while he was with the Faith Mission until 1900. WI broke away from the Faith Mission group in 1900 and joined his his 2x2 band of workers. William Irvine sister made WI changed his mind and thinking! What we don't it yet.... When was the time frame she told him. When did William Irvine's sister die Nathan? (The real one, I don't mean the fake one).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 12:39:33 GMT -5
If the dates are correct, his sister's death likely inspired him to turn to God, which he did later through Rev.John McNeill later in 1893(?). Given the timing, I doubt she inspired him to go preaching, let alone go preaching in the 2x2 method. The inspiration for the 2x2 method came in his Matt10 study in 1898(?) and no doubt from his Faith Mission experience which was very close to the 2x2 method. The inspiration for meeting in the home most likely came from the Prayer Union meetings from the Faith Mission. I would suggest that the biggest influence on F&W methodology today was the Faith Mission, tweaked by the Matt10 study. John Long seemed pretty clear on how the Matt 10 stuff took off, and I agree: the FM methodology would give impetus to the eventual form of things.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 13:27:06 GMT -5
Nathan, You missed the point; It doesn't say he heard it through her like you said in the first post that I mentioned. Now you said "she made his change his mind". Please quit making up stories. All we know is that he was inspired by his sister, and as I explained - it was her early death that most likely inspired him to go preach. Robert Darling (1905 worker from Ireland) story... He fills in more details of WI sister story. From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005
Hi Nathan,While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story: One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling went into the ministry in Ireland 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.).
During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.)
In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish."
I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. RGR, December, 2005 Nate: posted a letter by RGR above: professing.proboards.com/post/570183/thread From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005 Nate: Who is RGR ?? Is it author of "The Gate Seldom Found" (Raymond G. Reid from Guelph, Ontario, Canada)?
~~ NathanB: Hi Cherie, I don't know who RGR is, he could be, Raymond G. Reid as you suggested. He sent me his experience/meeting with George Gittens story to my email address and we communicated with each others a few times. He gave me the permission to share it with others.
I wrote to Raymond Reid in the past telling him, that I heard many people have mentioned good things about his book, "The Gate Seldom Found". I told him a little bit of my background... then I received RGR posts in my email address in Dec, 2005.What is interesting is how the beginning of your post starts; If I were writing a letter to you in December 2013 about an event that happened one month ago, would I start out by saying in Nov of 2013.....this and that happened....? That doesn't make sense to me. Most likely you would say something like "Last month George Gittins was staying in our home and.....". Why would he refer to it by month and year when it just happened a month ago? He sent this to you on December 2005, and is talking about an event in November 2005. Also, simple math tells us that Rob Darling would have been at least 85 years old when taking a walk in these windy gusty nights. George must have been whistling pretty loud to for his whistle to be heard above the gusty winds that caused him to get up at 3:00 in the morning to make sure the tents were ok. Normally you would simply shine a flashlight in the direction of the person walking. Also interesting is the fact that it says he "made his choice" and was baptized. Does this means that he stood up because someone tested the meeting? Who tested it? This is something the Workers do. There were no Workers at this time. If there were, who were they (names). In the bible is says "they believed and were baptised". "Making our choice" is something that came along much later. It comes with a waiting period before being baptised. Also, in regards to baptism. I don't have time to look it up now, but I believe that the new F&W movement went on for some time before they ever performed the first baptism. Maybe someone can answer that one. But, why would William Irvine have waited so long to start Baptisms in his new movement when it sounds like he in contrast "made his choice and was baptized". Just some things that popped out at me.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jan 31, 2014 14:23:00 GMT -5
All this discussion about WI and his sister really doesn't matter a lot in the long run.
What really matters is the fact that people were deceived into believing that **THE TRUTH** (2X2'S) went all the way back to the original apostles.
That simply wasn't true! The workers knew it wasn't true! No matter how one tries to keep on threading this or that bit of history into the equation, The *TRUTH*, as we know it DID NOT go all the way to the original apostles!
It is that deception, and it was a deception, that has caused so much pain & lack of trust in the veracity of the the *TRUTH*, (2x2's)! Period. End of story.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 14:28:35 GMT -5
JohnD.... Let me clarify it .... RGR, sent me two editions one in November, 2005 and the second in Dec, 2005. He told me to delete the first edition, because he has added more information on the second edition.
Yes, Robert Darling was in his 80s. He started the work in Ireland 1905. He died in 1970s.
This doesn't answer any of the questions above. Furthermore, you're not even sure who sent you this explanation of events? A "he said/she said" and you're not even sure who "he" is? Not sure you want to record this down as history. This story is no better than RAM's "Dorthy and Eileen Dover (I leaned over)" story without at least knowing who is telling the story.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 14:37:48 GMT -5
Believe it or not, the WI Sister story has grown some legs. I have now heard it from a couple of other Friends. The reason I like discussing it, is the more its discussed, the more you realize how much its false. What convinces me that its false is not the ones trying to discredit it, but to the contrary, the ones trying to convince us that its true. I keep waiting for some type of evidence that would bring even a little credibility to the story.
Like Hberry and CD said, its just a matter of time before we hear about how his sister "Dorthy" brought it to WI now. Thanks RAM!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 15:33:48 GMT -5
This would mean that Irvine didn't hear "The Truth" until he "renounced" the Faith Mission. That would be somewhere around 1899-1901. Strange that the workers officially listed in 1899 and 1900 heard "The Truth" from Irvine!
Who are these mystery folks that Darling knew and Irvine heard "The Truth" first from them?
The problem with the Gittens story is that it doesn't match up with Long, Pattison or Trotter, all who provided a great deal of detail of the early days. None of them thought it important to write about these mystery people were who brought "The Truth" to Irvine.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 15:42:36 GMT -5
Here is what Wiki says about religious freedom in Switzerland during the time that these people supposedly left that area, moved families over 800 miles across the English Channel, due to "religious persecution".
Freedom of religion[edit] Full freedom of religion has been guaranteed since the revised Swiss Constitution of 1874 (Article 49). During the Old Swiss Confederacy, there had been no de facto freedom of religion, with persecution of Anabaptists in particular well into the 18th century. Swiss Jews had been given full political rights in 1866, although their right to settle freely was implemented as late as 1879 in the canton of Aargau. The current Swiss Constitution of 1999 makes explicit both positive and negative religious freedom in Article 15, paragraph 3--which asserts that every person has the right to adhere to a religious confession and to attend religious education—and paragraph 4, which asserts that nobody can be forced to either adhere to a religious confession or to attend religious education, thus explicitly asserting the right of apostasy from a previously held religious belief.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 15:55:36 GMT -5
Believe it or not, the WI Sister story has grown some legs. I have now heard it from a couple of other Friends. The reason I like discussing it, is the more its discussed, the more you realize how much its false. What convinces me that its false is not the ones trying to discredit it, but to the contrary, the ones trying to convince us that its true. I keep waiting for some type of evidence that would bring even a little credibility to the story. Like Hberry and CD said, its just a matter of time before we hear about how his sister "Dorthy" brought it to WI now. Thanks RAM! You JD, I'm pretty sure I know someone who believes the letter and story of the fictional sister. That's what completely weirded me out. If John Long had thought it mattered where the idea came from, or that it came from a sister, he'd have said so. His life's story speaks to his honesty and he was careful to document what he knew and experienced. It's a shame folks can't just say they love the fellowship they are in and instead keep trying to make it into something it isn't: the one true way. It's a great way for those who remember that salvation is of the Lord; it's a snare for those who think the system has something to do with their salvation.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 31, 2014 16:31:21 GMT -5
Believe it or not, the WI Sister story has grown some legs. I have now heard it from a couple of other Friends. The reason I like discussing it, is the more its discussed, the more you realize how much its false. What convinces me that its false is not the ones trying to discredit it, but to the contrary, the ones trying to convince us that its true. I keep waiting for some type of evidence that would bring even a little credibility to the story. Like Hberry and CD said, its just a matter of time before we hear about how his sister "Dorthy" brought it to WI now. Thanks RAM! You JD, I'm pretty sure I know someone who believes the letter and story of the fictional sister. That's what completely weirded me out. If John Long had thought it mattered where the idea came from, or that it came from a sister, he'd have said so. His life's story speaks to his honesty and he was careful to document what he knew and experienced. It's a shame folks can't just say they love the fellowship they are in and instead keep trying to make it into something it isn't: the one true way. It's a great way for those who remember that salvation is of the Lord; it's a snare for those who think the system has something to do with their salvation.Hberry ~ However, what the workers preach all the time and the members believe to be true is that you have to be a member of the fold to be saved and to leave condemns you to eternal damnation. How can any church with that philosophy be good for the soul? The workers have not changed their exclusive stance on the Way being the only Way of salvation. To do so, they would be out of a job. They believe their own lies and continue to teach others the same. There are many home cell groups today connected to different churches with Bible studies within the home. But, they do not hold to such a rigid belief system, which discourages scrutiny and favors secretive over full disclosure.
However, I do believe there are a number of people within the 2x2's who have their faith in the right place and don't believe all the lies they are told. It's just hard to remain within such a group when you discover the truth about the "The Truth," which is one reason why so many leave in disillusionment ~ myself included! I realize a lot of friends have lots of family within the group, which seems to hold them back from leaving for fear of being shunned for leaving or the unknown. Since family ties are more important to them than the group's false claims, they choose to remain and erect a camouflage to hid their true feelings about the faith. But, in the process I feel people learn to "stuff their feelings" to live with their choices.
Personally, I never regretted leaving the fold and only wished I had departed much sooner. However, there's nothing inside of me that would ever want to go back to that lifestyle after experiencing freedom to be me and follow my heart.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 17:10:56 GMT -5
You JD, I'm pretty sure I know someone who believes the letter and story of the fictional sister. That's what completely weirded me out. If John Long had thought it mattered where the idea came from, or that it came from a sister, he'd have said so. His life's story speaks to his honesty and he was careful to document what he knew and experienced. It's a shame folks can't just say they love the fellowship they are in and instead keep trying to make it into something it isn't: the one true way. It's a great way for those who remember that salvation is of the Lord; it's a snare for those who think the system has something to do with their salvation.Hberry ~ However, what the workers preach all the time and the members believe to be true is that you have to be a member of the fold to be saved and to leave condemns you to eternal damnation. How can any church with that philosophy be good for the soul? The workers have not change their exclusive stance on the Way being the only Way of salvation. They believe their own lies and continue to teach others the same. There are many home cell groups today, many connected to churches, with Bible studies within the home who do not hold to such a rigid belief system, which discourages scrutiny and favors secretive over full disclosure.
However, I do believe there are a number of people within the 2x2's who have their faith in the right place and don't believe all the lies they are told. It's just hard to remain within such a group when you discover the truth about the "The Truth," which is one reason why so many leave in disillusionment ~ myself included!
The ones I was talking about are the ones like CD and JD and gecko who understand their salvation is unrelated to the fellowship they are in, ignore the goofy stuff, and enjoy the people. Me, I attend two other bible studies, go to other churches as I can, listen to other pastors and study various commentaries and have more friends outside now than I do within the fellowship. I can see how folks with lots of family in it would prefer to stay and ignore what isn't right for the sake of those relationships. Fortunately I only have significant loved one in the fellowship so that decision is way easier for me.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 17:23:33 GMT -5
You JD, I'm pretty sure I know someone who believes the letter and story of the fictional sister. That's what completely weirded me out. If John Long had thought it mattered where the idea came from, or that it came from a sister, he'd have said so. His life's story speaks to his honesty and he was careful to document what he knew and experienced. It's a shame folks can't just say they love the fellowship they are in and instead keep trying to make it into something it isn't: the one true way. It's a great way for those who remember that salvation is of the Lord; it's a snare for those who think the system has something to do with their salvation.Hberry ~ However, what the workers preach all the time and the members believe to be true is that you have to be a member of the fold to be saved and to leave condemns you to eternal damnation. How can any church with that philosophy be good for the soul? The workers have not changed their exclusive stance on the Way being the only Way of salvation. To do so, they would be out of a job. They believe their own lies and continue to teach others the same. There are many home cell groups today connected to different churches with Bible studies within the home. But, they do not hold to such a rigid belief system, which discourages scrutiny and favors secretive over full disclosure.
However, I do believe there are a number of people within the 2x2's who have their faith in the right place and don't believe all the lies they are told. It's just hard to remain within such a group when you discover the truth about the "The Truth," which is one reason why so many leave in disillusionment ~ myself included! I realize a lot of friends have lots of family within the group, which seems to hold them back from leaving for fear of being shunned for leaving or the unknown. Since family ties are more important to them than the group's false claims, they choose to remain and erect a camouflage to hid their true feelings about the faith. But, in the process I feel people learn to "stuff their feelings" to live with their choices.
Personally, I never regretted leaving the fold and only wished I had departed much sooner. However, there's nothing inside of me that would ever want to go back to that type of life after experiencing freedom to be me and follow my heart.
There are many 2X2's that post here on TMB. Would you not want to fellowship with the majority of them? I see no reason to leave. No, I don't appreciate those like Nate that will not simply embrace our history that is based on fact, not spineless explanations. Furthermore, all we hear on TMB are the negatives, but not any of the positives which there are many. We hear about the "bad" workers, but not the good ones. Some of us have tried to tell how things have changed for the good. And many of us have hope that they will continue to get better. Many of us are honest about the bad, and don't try to sweep a rug over the bad, or give some spineless excuse like "it might be God's will, we just don't know his entire plan yet" as an excuse for evil. So yes, our fellowship is far from perfection. No one gets more frustrated over these things than me. I get even more frustrated at the people that read here, and post excuses rather than acknowledge them in order that they can help change them. Thanks for all of you who are willing to acknowledge them, and do whatever you can do to help change them. There is much good in our fellowship, and thanks for to all who are willing to see things through the light of Christ, it WILL get better. It will never, however, be without its imperfections. Neither will any other fellowship of people that stays around for awhile and grows in number.....I can guarantee you that!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 17:26:38 GMT -5
This would mean that Irvine didn't hear "The Truth" until he "renounced" the Faith Mission. That would be somewhere around 1899-1901. Strange that the workers officially listed in 1899 and 1900 heard "The Truth" from Irvine! Who are these mystery folks that Darling knew and Irvine heard "The Truth" first from them? The problem with the Gittens story is that it doesn't match up with Long, Pattison or Trotter, all who provided a great deal of detail of the early days. None of them thought it important to write about these mystery people were who brought "The Truth" to Irvine.It was big thing to some people because Impartial Newspaper heard/report about William Irvine sister in 1910. Robert Darling and Geogre Walker believed it was very important thing= William Irvine was NOT the founder because his sister HAD TOlD him about it.. George Walker, remembered and shared it with many workers in the east coast in 1963 after 60 yrs later.... William Irvine claimed he was the Founder of the 2x2 fellowship AFTER he left the ministry in 1914 so to prove he wasn't telling the truth.... the early workers shared with others how WI had heard from his sister... so, WI could NOT be the Founder. WI was making a false claim. He took the credit as the Founder, when he knew he wasn't...... So, his sister story got buried but some of the early workers Robert Darling, and Geogre Walker remembered about William Irvine sister story, how she heard it and told him about it. 8) Christianburg wrote: There have been numerous comments and quotes evolving on TMB regarding my previous statements about William Irvine and his sister. The following is intended to clear up some uncertainty about what was actually posted by me and other various expanded suppositions. What I have added here today is the total of my recollections in reflection on a 1963 hearing of George Walker and Charlie Hughes as they discussed the subject of William Irvine and his sister.In 1963 when I was a young worker age 23 George Walker and Charlie Hughes were on Special Meeting rounds in Richmond, Virginia, USA. George Walker was a visiting worker. There were 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. In addition to George and Charlie there were 3 other workers from the old country in this 1963 meeting. Arthur Benton, Fanny Northridge and Rebecca Kerr were there. Fanny and Rebecca were from Ireland and knew about William Irvine's story and had heard it prior to that Special Meeting. Fanny was a woman of few words but Rebecca and I talked about it later and she confirmed that she knew that William's sister had an influence on his life. Neither Fanny nor Rebecca spoke about others who had preceded or influenced his sister. George Walker and Charlie Hughes talked about how the gospel had moved out from Ireland. Their talk centered on William Irvine, his sister, John Long, Willie Gill and Eddie Cooney; how William Irvine was the first to mention starting a 2x2 ministry and that he and John Long pretty much came to a mutual agreement. They said it centered around William Irvine who had been influenced in his thinking by his sister telling him how she had been spiritually moved. He gave his sister credit for influencing him.There were the words Charlie used: "It came into her heart to tell William about her experience." It was the beginning of a spiritual awakening in William. He did not elaborate beyond that. Neither George or Charlie ever claimed apostolic succession. Signed: Christiansburg, TMB Dated January 29, 2014 I give permission for my statements above to be quoted and copied. Nathan, the "influence" of Irvine's sister on him is a different matter than the story of Swiss people bringing The Truth to Ireland and converting Irvine. As far as I can see, his sister's influence has been accepted as fact by most observers. We are discussing the people who brought Irvine "The Truth" as George Gittens claims, and the people from Switzerland who brought The Truth to Ireland in the first place. In your own evidence "Neither George or Charlie ever claimed apostolic succession."
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Jan 31, 2014 17:34:54 GMT -5
Sorry Nathan......
No way John Long, nor Goodhand Pattison doesn't mention the very first Sunday morning meeting in Ireland. They spend hundreds of hours documenting the history, and just failed to mention one of the most important facts.....where it all started in Ireland.
Once again.....common sense is a necessity.
I'm also anxious to hear your explanation as to why the family left Switzerland, moved thousands of miles to Ireland of all places, due to religious persecution, when at that time there was no religious persecution in Switzerland.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 31, 2014 17:44:32 GMT -5
Nathan you frighten me and it is for your needs that I'm talking about! Do you not remember the words that Jesus told his Apostles when they told him about a man that was putting the demons in people, out? What did Jesus say, Nathan. Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. Do you not see by this scripture alone that we are not to speak against those who work in Jesus' name....for it is Jesus' mind that those who work or worship in His name that they are not against him. So to continue to looke down upon any other denomination that actually may have Jesus higher on their worship scale then the 2x2's that speak against those said church members. You severe need to make it that the 2x2's actually tells some of here on TMB that you are fighting against having to accept that the "lie" the workers and some friends perpetuated that the 2x2 church comes from the shores of Galilee when IT IS NOT SO. IF it had come from the shores, do you think that Jesus' Way would have been allowed to become so corrupt as it is presently? I sure don't! True some people can be corrupt but Nathan, when it comes down to a majority of the fuling workers are the corrupt ones that says that that corruptedness is accept as being OKAY! Please subside from pushing that idea, Nathan! I know it will hurt you pretty bad when you have to face the truth about the "Truth"....look at Lazarus presently for he has finally had to come to the same conclusion most of us have had to come to and it is hurting him because he has given the younger years of his life to something that is a lie.....some 50 yrs. There are others, BM is one who was trying to get the truth out about other Christian believers and was shot down for it because his mtg.'s elders couldn't handle that truth about the "Truth"! The Vietnamese story that is so hard to accept because there doesn't seem to be on thing we can do to alleviate their pain! The 2x2 pain is felt by nearly all of us here on TMB....and it didn't have to be this way! Jesus was telling his 12 apostles NOT to forbid, one of his own followers/disciples to cast out demons because he didn't follow in the Ministry of the apostles. Jesus told the apostles and his followers to go and PREACH in every nation NOT just apostles. God has given power to Both apostles and disciples/saints responsibility in sharing the word of God to everyone they come in contact with NOT just apostles. God gave the disciples/Saints to heal, perform miracles in the book of Acts such as Ananias, Philip the evangelists, and Stephen. Nathan, this is the wrong interpretation the 2x2's have put upon this "stranger" who was working to casting out demons in "Jesus' name"....I was told that this man had a private relationship with Jesus.
NO WHERE in the whole story does it says that he was a follower of Jesus! NO WHERE does it even say that Jesus and the man had had a mtg. anywhere. The whole story was for the sake of the high minded Apostles who were forbidding someone who was doing good works in Jesus' name. Jesus was telling his Apostles to quit being so sure that they themselves were the only people who could do good in Jesus' name for anyone using Jesus' name to cast out demons is not going to be someone AGAINST Jesus.....IT TELLS IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that this man was not a follower of us, that being the Apostles of Jesus Christ and other disciples that followed with them!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 31, 2014 18:02:17 GMT -5
Believe it or not, the WI Sister story has grown some legs. I have now heard it from a couple of other Friends. The reason I like discussing it, is the more its discussed, the more you realize how much its false. What convinces me that its false is not the ones trying to discredit it, but to the contrary, the ones trying to convince us that its true. I keep waiting for some type of evidence that would bring even a little credibility to the story. Like Hberry and CD said, its just a matter of time before we hear about how his sister "Dorthy" brought it to WI now. Thanks RAM! RGR letter was written to me had similar information when George Gittens wrote to me in person. So, RGR and George Gittens stories match.From George Gittens: 12/28/2001 Hi Nathan, Yours was of great interest. Here is a little outline of what Robert Darling (worker from Ireland in 1905) told me. I also talked to some of the friends who had witnessed William Irvine's baptism in the Truth where he had been a member and a preacher, but he disregarded this. He preached some for the Faith Mission, but renounced it upon hearing the Truth. Robert Darling knew William and also the folks he heard first. William Irvine's sister came from Scotland and went to work in someone's house on a farm in Ireland. When Sunday morning she came into a room, was set up for worship. The folks of the home said they had worship service in their home every Sunday A.M. and a few others came. William's sister wanted to know how this started? The folks said their ancestors had heard homeless preachers somewhere near Switzerland and in the Alps. They embraced the faith, and a church meeting was started in their home by these homeless preachers. When the folks had to leave that area due to persecutions, and came to Ireland, they continued the service in their home. William's sister was religious, but dissatisfied and seeking God for truth, so she embraces this faith, as was convicted it was the true way of God. She later returned to her homeland and told her brother William Irvine, who was extremely interested, as he was dissatisfied with the Church. He and his sister came to visit with these folks, and upon hearing their testimony, recognized it as scriptural and was also convicted it was God's true way. He later had his calling by the Spirit of God to go into the harvest field as Jesus taught his disciples. Leaving all and going out by faith. Later, I (George Gittins) talked to Garret Hughes (an older worker) whose parents professed through William Irvine. He had mentioned something about Switzerland concerning Truth being preserved. Garrett said if Robert Darling told you this, it must be true, as he was there and knew first hand how this happened. I (George Gittins) talked to old Mr. Holland who was nearly 100 years old, and his folks had told him the same as Robert related. We are glad for this first hand account, not that it matters so much, for Jesus said by their fruits you should know it. When one has the fruit we need not worry so much about the tree and its origin. However, I found this most interesting.
Yours in Christ, George Gittins Since the "fruit" has come full ripened in that which George Gittins has testified, we see it as fruit of the darkness....everything hidden to keep it closed and the fruit of the workers from day one should be questioned for the results are horrendous in the lying to one another, not only about the history but about occurrances that typically affect the membership. Being told what to think and being told not to think, leaves humans in a bind when all that's been told them has come with a price. And that price is walking in darkness but that which is hidden or which is secret will be found some day before the end of the world. Nathan don't spin more windmills about WI's sister. Everything you've written or I have read or other people have written the "INSPIRATION" that WI's sister gave WI came from her early grave! I think that indeed WI mentions in someones' writings about her early death and how it caused him to get serious about his soul's welfare. That likely would be JL, but I can't find it at present......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 18:52:25 GMT -5
Nathan, the "influence" of Irvine's sister on him is a different matter than the story of Swiss people bringing The Truth to Ireland and converting Irvine. As far as I can see, his sister's influence has been accepted as fact by most observers. We are discussing the people who brought Irvine "The Truth" as George Gittens claims, and the people from Switzerland who brought The Truth to Ireland in the first place. In your own evidence "Neither George or Charlie ever claimed apostolic succession." The 2x2 workers don't claim in believing apostolic succession but they have workers/apostles successsion.... since William Irvine 1898---- if people believe he was the Founder... 115 yrs 2x2 workers/apostles succession so far. The Catholic Church believes in apostolic Succession so did the Vaudois believers Paul's own followers/converts throughout Europe for 1800 yrs, also believe apostolic succession!Nathan, to quote from Cornelius Jaenen's book: (page 442) "The most important mediaeval restorationist movement was the Poor Preachers of Lyons. Although the movement CLAIMED it ws a continuation of pure and uncorrupted primitive Christianity, its origins are commonly traced to a decision by Pierre Waldes (Valdes), a rich merchant and usurer, in or soon after 1173 to dispose of his property to the poor, after having separated from his wife and family and made provision for their welfare, and to take up an itinerant ministry in his search for spiritual fulfillment." Again the claim for the Waldensian/Valdes folks was only a claim: they had a historical beginning with a historical person at a documented place and time--and no 1800 year time span. On this page, on a footnote, he quotes the Broadbent book's lack of documentation on the supposed continuation of apostolic teaching from the Paulicans of Armenia in the 6th or 7th centuries...' Nathan, why do we need an unbroken chain of anything? We only need Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 31, 2014 22:03:16 GMT -5
Hberry ~ However, what the workers preach all the time and the members believe to be true is that you have to be a member of the fold to be saved and to leave condemns you to eternal damnation. How can any church with that philosophy be good for the soul? The workers have not changed their exclusive stance on the Way being the only Way of salvation. To do so, they would be out of a job. They believe their own lies and continue to teach others the same. There are many home cell groups today connected to different churches with Bible studies within the home. But, they do not hold to such a rigid belief system, which discourages scrutiny and favors secretive over full disclosure.
However, I do believe there are a number of people within the 2x2's who have their faith in the right place and don't believe all the lies they are told. It's just hard to remain within such a group when you discover the truth about the "The Truth," which is one reason why so many leave in disillusionment ~ myself included! I realize a lot of friends have lots of family within the group, which seems to hold them back from leaving for fear of being shunned for leaving or the unknown. Since family ties are more important to them than the group's false claims, they choose to remain and erect a camouflage to hid their true feelings about the faith. But, in the process I feel people learn to "stuff their feelings" to live with their choices.
Personally, I never regretted leaving the fold and only wished I had departed much sooner. However, there's nothing inside of me that would ever want to go back to that type of life after experiencing freedom to be me and follow my heart.
There are many 2X2's that post here on TMB. Would you not want to fellowship with the majority of them? I see no reason to leave. No, I don't appreciate those like Nate that will not simply embrace our history that is based on fact, not spineless explanations. Furthermore, all we hear on TMB are the negatives, but not any of the positives which there are many. We hear about the "bad" workers, but not the good ones. Some of us have tried to tell how things have changed for the good. And many of us have hope that they will continue to get better. Many of us are honest about the bad, and don't try to sweep a rug over the bad, or give some spineless excuse like "it might be God's will, we just don't know his entire plan yet" as an excuse for evil. So yes, our fellowship is far from perfection. No one gets more frustrated over these things than me. I get even more frustrated at the people that read here, and post excuses rather than acknowledge them in order that they can help change them. Thanks for all of you who are willing to acknowledge them, and do whatever you can do to help change them. There is much good in our fellowship, and thanks for to all who are willing to see things through the light of Christ, it WILL get better. It will never, however, be without its imperfections. Neither will any other fellowship of people that stays around for awhile and grows in number.....I can guarantee you that!! Jondough ~ I agree there are a number of fine people within the fellowship, but many of them still refuse to take a closer look at the teachings of the workers or examine the facts in the light of the real gospel message pertaining to Jesus. The workers and the meetings in the home have become the gospel message and remains the same to this day. The focus is on the workers' sacrifice more than Jesus Christ, and it's still taught that joining the group is essential to one's salvation along with breaking ties to the outside world. Also, it's still taught that outside the fold there is no hope of salvation. As long as these false teachings remain part of the group structure, I cannot see how meaningful change can ever be realized? At best, surface changes in the "do's and don'ts" seem to be all that is recognizable.
The overseers haven't change their way of doing things, except in being more careful about CSA cases due to mandatory reporting. However, this was not the story in the past and many wrongs did get shoved under the carpet away from view. When I left the faith back in 1995, I didn't know any of the history until two years later. I felt burned out from the same old message every week and the workers control over people's lives. It was like you lost your identity within the faith as you tried so hard to conform to the group lifestyle and the dictates of the workers. It would really surprise me to hear a worker focus on the real gospel message of the Cross and the redemptive story of Jesus found in John 3:16 in relation to our salvation. All the surface stuff is just immaterial ~ it's the real substance of the Word that has been neglected for years and continues to be ignored to support the doctrine of the workers.
I do recognize a few on TMB who are truly enlightened and don't try to cover up the truth about the fellowship. However, they're in the minority compared to the rest, in my opinion. I just wonder how anyone could feel comfortable within a group that doesn't share your perspective on things and hid their faces from the truth? The history cover-up is just a small part of the problem ~ it's really the message the workers preach that needs changing to support what the Word of God really teaches. Just my thoughts!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Jan 31, 2014 22:20:51 GMT -5
Hberry ~ However, what the workers preach all the time and the members believe to be true is that you have to be a member of the fold to be saved and to leave condemns you to eternal damnation. How can any church with that philosophy be good for the soul? The workers have not change their exclusive stance on the Way being the only Way of salvation. They believe their own lies and continue to teach others the same. There are many home cell groups today, many connected to churches, with Bible studies within the home who do not hold to such a rigid belief system, which discourages scrutiny and favors secretive over full disclosure.
However, I do believe there are a number of people within the 2x2's who have their faith in the right place and don't believe all the lies they are told. It's just hard to remain within such a group when you discover the truth about the "The Truth," which is one reason why so many leave in disillusionment ~ myself included!
The ones I was talking about are the ones like CD and JD and gecko who understand their salvation is unrelated to the fellowship they are in, ignore the goofy stuff, and enjoy the people. Me, I attend two other bible studies, go to other churches as I can, listen to other pastors and study various commentaries and have more friends outside now than I do within the fellowship. I can see how folks with lots of family in it would prefer to stay and ignore what isn't right for the sake of those relationships. Fortunately I only have significant loved one in the fellowship so that decision is way easier for me. Hberry ~ I can see you are doing the same things I did which helped opened my eyes to what I was missing all along. I also felt the same spiritual hunger within the fellowship and longed for something of more substance, which I also found outside of the fellowship. Listening to different pastors on radio and participating in group Bible studies outside of the faith was an eye opener for me and truly fed my soul. I considered those people on the outside as my "lifeline" in keeping my faith afloat. However, the time came when I could no longer pretend to be part of something that I could not embrace anymore and left me feeling empty within. That's why the day I left the meetings, Easter Sunday, will always be remembered as a special day for me in my spiritual journey. Although it wasn't easy giving up my "security blanket" and taking a good look at what I had believed for years, I'm glad I made that choice for change and followed my heart. I have no regrets over my decision and only wished I had made it sooner than I did.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Feb 1, 2014 9:10:58 GMT -5
There are many 2X2's that post here on TMB. Would you not want to fellowship with the majority of them? I see no reason to leave. No, I don't appreciate those like Nate that will not simply embrace our history that is based on fact, not spineless explanations. Furthermore, all we hear on TMB are the negatives, but not any of the positives which there are many. We hear about the "bad" workers, but not the good ones. Some of us have tried to tell how things have changed for the good. And many of us have hope that they will continue to get better. Many of us are honest about the bad, and don't try to sweep a rug over the bad, or give some spineless excuse like "it might be God's will, we just don't know his entire plan yet" as an excuse for evil. So yes, our fellowship is far from perfection. No one gets more frustrated over these things than me. I get even more frustrated at the people that read here, and post excuses rather than acknowledge them in order that they can help change them. Thanks for all of you who are willing to acknowledge them, and do whatever you can do to help change them. There is much good in our fellowship, and thanks for to all who are willing to see things through the light of Christ, it WILL get better. It will never, however, be without its imperfections. Neither will any other fellowship of people that stays around for awhile and grows in number.....I can guarantee you that!! Jondough ~ I agree there are a number of fine people within the fellowship, but many of them still refuse to take a closer look at the teachings of the workers or examine the facts in the light of the real gospel message pertaining to Jesus. The workers and the meetings in the home have become the gospel message and remains the same to this day. The focus is on the workers' sacrifice more than Jesus Christ, and it's still taught that joining the group is essential to one's salvation along with breaking ties to the outside world. Also, it's still taught that outside the fold there is no hope of salvation. As long as these false teachings remain part of the group structure, I cannot see how meaningful change can ever be realized? At best, surface changes in the "do's and don'ts" seem to be all that is recognizable.
The overseers haven't change their way of doing things, except in being more careful about CSA cases due to mandatory reporting. However, this was not the story in the past and many wrongs did get shoved under the carpet away from view. When I left the faith back in 1995, I didn't know any of the history until two years later. I felt burned out from the same old message every week and the workers control over people's lives. It was like you lost your identity within the faith as you tried so hard to conform to the group lifestyle and the dictates of the workers. It would really surprise me to hear a worker focus on the real gospel message of the Cross and the redemptive story of Jesus found in John 3:16 in relation to our salvation. All the surface stuff is just immaterial ~ it's the real substance of the Word that has been neglected for years and continues to be ignored to support the doctrine of the workers.
I do recognize a few on TMB who are truly enlightened and don't try to cover up the truth about the fellowship. However, they're in the minority compared to the rest, in my opinion. I just wonder how anyone could feel comfortable within a group that doesn't share your perspective on things and hid their faces from the truth? The history cover-up is just a small part of the problem ~ it's really the message the workers preach that needs changing to support what the Word of God really teaches. Just my thoughts!
Its ironic that you mention this. Our good professing friends were at our house yesterday evening. We were having this exact conversation about how were raised to thinking we are were the only true way. The Mrs is the one that brought it up and said that she just doesn't believe that. We all agreed that less and less people actually believe that anymore. Of course there are quite a few that still do, but it is becoming substantially less. In my opinion, once we get rid of exclusivity, many other things will improve with it. I believe that exclusivity is the root to many, if not most of our problems. I disagree that "the Workers have not changed their way of doing things". They have changed a lot. In the past, when they came to your home, if they saw anything they didn't approve of, they didn't hesitate to let you know. They used to be VERY controlling. I find that most come over just to encourage. They don't come over with a sense and attitude of entitlement, but more of appreciation that you are sharing your home, food and other things with them. My wife and I were just discussing this about a Worker that was recently at our house, that had also been at our house several times around 15 years ago. How much he had changed. Most of the change will need to come from the "Church". I think this is what has subtly changed the ministry. Although there are plenty of "sycophant" Friends still around, I would say more than half are no longer "sycophant". This makes a huge difference in how the Workers conduct themselves. They are human, and it simply just gets to a human being's head when they are held up on a pedestal like some type of God. No, its far from just surface stuff. I feel for Hberry, as it sounds like she has had Workers that spent the entire year speaking mainly on the "ministry" and very little about Christ. This can get very discouraging. Especially when you read through Acts, and realize that every time we read about someone preaching there, it was NEVER preaching about the ministry. It was ALWAYS preaching Christ. Christ was NEVER spoke on like an after-thought in any sermon. Hopefully, with all the openness that the Information Age creates, things will be more in the open, and change for the better will continue to happen.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Feb 1, 2014 9:52:44 GMT -5
Jondough ~ I appreciate your honesty and glad to hear some attitudes are changing among the workers due to decreasing numbers of friends available to support them within the information era of the Internet. However, if you listen to the workers closely, you will find that their messages all have a way of getting back to the "party line" and the exclusive mindset. I feel the "specialness" of being set apart from the world is what defines them within the people's eyes. Without all the outward stuff along with the exclusivity, exactly what do you think would be left? The friends also mimic the workers message and style in their testimonies. Personally, it reminded me a lot of the old movie, "Groundhog Day," where life was so predictable and just repeated over and over regardless what the reporter did to change it. That's why I got so burned out on the fellowship and left before I even learned the truth about the history of the movement. I always suspected there was someone who initiated the group, as you see within every denomination today. Perhaps the RCC is the only church that can really trace its history back to the first centuries, but what transpired over the years due to their own exclusive mindset was not pretty and brought in the Dark Ages.
There's nothing wrong with the simplicity of the faith and meetings within homes, it's just the focus of the gospel message that is all wrong. Jesus still is not promoted as "the Way, the Truth, and the Light" ~ the workers have taken His rightful place along with the 2x2 ministry and all that goes along with it. I can remember a lot of storytelling by the workers within the meetings and at conventions, but so little centered around Jesus and what he taught. Maybe more friends today don't believe in the exclusivity doctrine of the workers, but that doesn't stop the workers from preaching it or promoting it as truth.
Honestly, I feel the workers are just trying to hold on to what they have left of members and are lightening up on the controls to avoid a greater exodus from the faith? Also, I feel there are few workers in the field today who don't know about the founder, William Irvine, yet they continue to promote the same old party line to keep the overseers happy and maintain their position. That's why I believe that real change has to come from the top, the people in authority over the flock, and that has been quite slow over the years, as demonstrated by the handling of CSA. Just my thoughts!
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 1, 2014 12:09:54 GMT -5
JD you mention that it would be all better once the 2x2's let go of their belief in exclusivity. My question is this. What would they have left if they didn't believe they were the only true way. They would become just another denomination of many within Christianity. Could the Truth survive that? Is there enough to offer the members if they don't have to be in the Truth to have salvation?
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Feb 1, 2014 14:18:28 GMT -5
JD you mention that it would be all better once the 2x2's let go of their belief in exclusivity. My question is this. What would they have left if they didn't believe they were the only true way. They would become just another denomination of many within Christianity. Could the Truth survive that? Is there enough to offer the members if they don't have to be in the Truth to have salvation? Snow, If all we had was "exclusivity", I would have been gone a long time ago. What we would have left is sweet fellowship without the self righteousness of exclusivity. If it were true non-exlusivity, that would mean someone from another church could come to one of our meetings and be treated as a brother, not an outsider. We could break bread with them, and enter in with them in prayer. I'm failing to understand why you, and it appears Nathan thinks we would have nothing left. We would have everything left that means anything. Yes, maybe for some it would be a big let-down that they are not one and only true way. The one in 34 thousand that isn't going to Hell. If this bothers them, then their heart was in the wrong place anyway. If they have the heart of Jesus, this would bring them much joy to finally understand that they have other brothers and sisters. Am I missing something?
|
|