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Post by Mary on Jan 5, 2014 16:22:03 GMT -5
What Hat, the deacons role is not to fill in when the elder is away. The elder and deacons have different roles. The workers also do a lot of jobs that deacons should be appointed to do. The workers church is no more near the NT church than many other churches. As we have seen here, the roles of worker is blurred.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2014 16:25:36 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers? The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST): Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist." We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs-- where are the pastors and teachers?The workers in the US and perhaps other countries are presently filling the "pastor's" positions for they do little Apostolic OR evangelistic work any more. And of course the "teachers" would be anyone who is willing to teach what the church is about, etc
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 16:27:45 GMT -5
I don't see 'personally a healthy thing' or 'freedom of association' in either OT or NT scripture. Where are you finding that - either scripturally written or in the practice of the NT church - or in the early fathers' writings? I see: complete or perfect unity, maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, doctrine of the Lord persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, trustworthy message as taught, must teach sound doctrine, doctrine of Christ, traditions (or ordinances) as I delivered them to you, being trained in the words of the faith, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..... The only time unity is any good is when you possess the truth to begin with. The real truth is this: mankind is still struggling to learn the truth so in the meantime, real unity is found in the chaos of seeking the truth, not in the unity of trying to rationalize hubris. In so saying then, you deny the NT scriptures, the truth that is Christ Jesus - the commands he left of those he ordained and appointed - the rock and foundation upon which he built his church - the Apostles - and his doctrine passed down thru his Apostles and their successors.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 5, 2014 16:32:15 GMT -5
The prophets of the OT were God-designated messengers. So were the 12 original apostles.
A person did not volunteer to be a prophet--prophets were handpicked by God. "For the prophecy came NOT in old time BY THE WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," 2 Pet 1:21.
"I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit...and the LORD said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel..." Amos 7:14-15.
It was such a memorable event when God chose and approached the prophet-to-be, that many wrote about it: "...the word of the LORD which came…" to Samuel, to Ezekiel, to Hosea, to Joel, to Jonah, to Micah, to Zephaniah; to Haggai, to Zechariah. (Also Jer. 14:14; 23:21).
Personally, I firmly believe the days are past for Prophets and Apostles of their quality--they ended with John--dont ask me which John tho! Here's the verses I use to support my belief:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Bottom line IMO--it is impossible for the workers to be prophets or apostles.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2014 16:39:30 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers? The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST): Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist." We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs-- where are the pastors and teachers?I have heard it specifically preached that all workers are all 5: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Add to that, they practice the role of Elder and Overseer.....and when it comes to convention, they are the Deacons as well. It keeps them busy. I have heard this also...it seemed such jealousy ranked hard in the workers' church and that the workers are the perpatrators of such jealousy. They do NOT want even those elders of the different home mtgs. that do their finances to get too far into doing that of the church's business....they want to keep it all within their own control. It would not be unexpected that even those elders who have special privileges of the workers' business die off that there will be not more more friends doing the workers' business at all.....they are going to get more and more tightfisted, because they know that if they don't then what will the older workers live off of IF the friends all take a hike! They might put the younger workers to regular labor or whatever they might be trained to do to bring in some bacon for all of them....but likely the younger workers wouldn't stand for that for IF they must provide a living then they want a spouse and children....can't blame them for that. The Pastoral care is what is running the workers ragged and IS actually what costs the most because the workers have to have a fairly new and functional automobile and money for the gas and oil and Freon, etc....but the workers have to get up early every morning to get ready to have breakfast with the household before everybody goes to work or school and the workers then must also take a hike to see someone, to make a new contact or even their own needs and then to hurry to some other friend's house for a dinner/lunch and then the afternoon might net them a nap before they pick up and move on to the next friends' house for supper/dinner and bedtime! Just to get up and go again same way tomorrow. A monotony killing their spirits day by day! I am not surprised at the number of young workers who go into the work for a few years and then out. Though I just had a shock about a young brother worker acouple years ago, I believe....he stayed home after a post conv. visit to his folks home, and then the next I heard he'd gotten married! Okay that is his business and probably the best thing he had ever done! I knew a young sister who was assigned her home state and pretty much within reach of her home and parents.....she seemed to do okay as long as she was in her home state....after being in the work about 3 yrs. then she was sent to another state which was a considerable distance from her parents' home! She didn't last the full year....she came home and next thing I knew she was married and living even in another state much farther from her parents! sheesh...poor kid!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 16:47:27 GMT -5
The only time unity is any good is when you possess the truth to begin with. The real truth is this: mankind is still struggling to learn the truth so in the meantime, real unity is found in the chaos of seeking the truth, not in the unity of trying to rationalize hubris. In so saying then, you deny the NT scriptures, the truth that is Christ Jesus - the commands he left of those he ordained and appointed - the rock and foundation upon which he built his church - the Apostles - and his doctrine passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. Quite the opposite based on the scriptures you hang your hat on. The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation. While foundations remain in place for a long time, buildings are always built, re-built and renovated with the most up to date knowledge and technologies. The bible itself demonstrates a progressive "revelation" where even old principles were pushed aside in favour of newer, better ones. That work continues in some places except the most extreme literalist and traditionalist corners. There are, for instance, fewer and fewer "Young Earth" creationist believers because after a few thousand years, some people are discovering and accepting the truths that were not in the bible.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2014 16:55:47 GMT -5
All of this discussion is just another example of how the "church" started is have disagreements amongst themselves, beginning with Paul and the church at Jerusalem and started splitting!
eumh... wonder if the **TRUTH** might split into a couple or three, maybe four... groups and become many little *TRUTHS* Perhaps it can split into a least 5 and still retain a bit of the original "truth"....each 5th taking a letter of "truth" and going on....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2014 17:01:17 GMT -5
In so saying then, you deny the NT scriptures, the truth that is Christ Jesus - the commands he left of those he ordained and appointed - the rock and foundation upon which he built his church - the Apostles - and his doctrine passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. Quite the opposite based on the scriptures you hang your hat on. The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation. While foundations remain in place for a long time, buildings are always built, re-built and renovated with the most up to date knowledge and technologies. The bible itself demonstrates a progressive "revelation" where even old principles were pushed aside in favour of newer, better ones. That work continues in some places except the most extreme literalist and traditionalist corners. There are, for instance, fewer and fewer "Young Earth" creationist believers because after a few thousand years, some people are discovering and accepting the truths that were not in the bible. Perhaps with each generation there is a growth of truth as they of that generation would know....much like the evolving God we see in the OT or actually the evolving understanding and relationship with God of the OT! And I don't think it stopped in the OT....I think Jesus was an absolute necessity that people learn about a more personal and loving God....that fear and battling have little to do with the Father in heaven in the long run....I feel God has allowed people all down through the ages to go fight one another...He didn't start the battle, but He didn't stop it....and I feel that because people had less understanding and even a lesser relationship with God in the OT days that they actually gave God the credit for a lot of the yow-yow that went on.....I mean some of that yow-yow still is going on...the Middle East countries have been fighting one another for centuries and why should we blame God? It's the hardness of man's heart that causes these problems, not the God in heaven...and yes, I know that some negative things God did are mentioned in the OT...but I have to wonder if that wasn't just the ideas of the writer of those instances!
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 17:34:46 GMT -5
In so saying then, you deny the NT scriptures, the truth that is Christ Jesus - the commands he left of those he ordained and appointed - the rock and foundation upon which he built his church - the Apostles - and his doctrine passed down thru his Apostles and their successors. Quite the opposite based on the scriptures you hang your hat on. The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation. While foundations remain in place for a long time, buildings are always built, re-built and renovated with the most up to date knowledge and technologies. The bible itself demonstrates a progressive "revelation" where even old principles were pushed aside in favour of newer, better ones. That work continues in some places except the most extreme literalist and traditionalist corners. There are, for instance, fewer and fewer "Young Earth" creationist believers because after a few thousand years, some people are discovering and accepting the truths that were not in the bible. First, you denied that we know truth .... That is starkly contrary to passages such as: The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation.Beyond the word twisting of 'looking like' - when did the command to persevere in the doctrinal teaching of the Apostles cease? Or the scriptural command that the NT church ordain with the prayers (as handed on) and laying on on hands to ordain their successors? Or the scriptural command that the ordained be in the line of those who witnessed the Resurrection (in order to remain in correct teaching and unity)?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 18:46:39 GMT -5
Quite the opposite based on the scriptures you hang your hat on. The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation. While foundations remain in place for a long time, buildings are always built, re-built and renovated with the most up to date knowledge and technologies. The bible itself demonstrates a progressive "revelation" where even old principles were pushed aside in favour of newer, better ones. That work continues in some places except the most extreme literalist and traditionalist corners. There are, for instance, fewer and fewer "Young Earth" creationist believers because after a few thousand years, some people are discovering and accepting the truths that were not in the bible. First, you denied that we know truth .... That is starkly contrary to passages such as: The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation.Beyond the word twisting of 'looking like' - when did the command to persevere in the doctrinal teaching of the Apostles cease? Or the scriptural command that the NT church ordain with the prayers (as handed on) and laying on on hands to ordain their successors? Or the scriptural command that the ordained be in the line of those who witnessed the Resurrection (in order to remain in correct teaching and unity)? I'm not saying you don't know truth. I am saying you don't know all truth, and far from it, along with a few non-truths. I doubt that any NT writer possessed the arrogance to try to convince people that they knew all truth but it wouldn't entirely surprise me since every generation has people who think they know it all.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 19:10:07 GMT -5
First, you denied that we know truth .... That is starkly contrary to passages such as: The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
The church was to be built on the foundation of the apostles. As you know, no building ends up looking anything like its foundation.Beyond the word twisting of 'looking like' - when did the command to persevere in the doctrinal teaching of the Apostles cease? Or the scriptural command that the NT church ordain with the prayers (as handed on) and laying on on hands to ordain their successors? Or the scriptural command that the ordained be in the line of those who witnessed the Resurrection (in order to remain in correct teaching and unity)? I'm not saying you don't know truth. I am saying you don't know all truth, and far from it, along with a few non-truths. I doubt that any NT writer possessed the arrogance to try to convince people that they knew all truth but it wouldn't entirely surprise me since every generation has people who think they know it all. I am saying you don't know all truthAh. Now it's all truth. Yes, I can understand backing away from saying that the NT church doesn't know or have truth. Jesus promised to his ordained Apostles (the church He said he would build) the Holy Spirit to guide them in truth. You earlier said: The only time unity is any good is when you possess the truth to begin with. The real truth is this: mankind is still struggling to learn the truth so in the meantime, real unity is found in the chaos of seeking the truthReally? Where do we scripturally find that teaching? For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.Somewhere the NT church that teaches truth, in the unity of teaching truth, still exists as Jesus declared it will, to the end of the age.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 19:14:19 GMT -5
And I'm still not finding the scriptural teaching of 'freedom of association' - in man's free will, yes; but not in regard to scriptural unity and truth.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 5, 2014 19:30:07 GMT -5
Like WhatHat suggests, I also don't have a problem with the F&Ws calling themselves a New Testament Church. That is certainly their intention and they do make efforts in that direction. Of course they aren't an exact replica and never will be, but from Day One they were a Primitive Christian Restorationist Movement and will likely keep that effort in place for a long time to come. Personally, I wouldn't brag about being a New Testament Church. It doesn't take a lot of insight to understand that the 1st Century church was in pretty constant turmoil and trouble. The epistles were mostly written to address the problems that were arising and by the looks of it, there were lots. By the time John wrote the Revelations, there wasn't a lot of flattery in the messages to the 7 churches. Add to that, the evidence of a hierarchical structure of a church developing which was completely against the principles established by Jesus and you have something that shouldn't be copied. I think it would be better to be a New-New Testament Church by using the lessons learned throughout the centuries. CD In the early church men and women died for their beliefs. The workers won't even admit to being ministers Go figure ken
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 19:34:48 GMT -5
I'm not saying you don't know truth. I am saying you don't know all truth, and far from it, along with a few non-truths. I doubt that any NT writer possessed the arrogance to try to convince people that they knew all truth but it wouldn't entirely surprise me since every generation has people who think they know it all. I am saying you don't know all truthAh. Now it's all truth. Yes, I can understand backing away from saying that the NT church doesn't know or have truth. Jesus promised to his ordained Apostles (the church He said he would build) the Holy Spirit to guide them in truth. Of course it is all truth. Even the most militant atheist is not likely to say that the bible contains no truth. But we agree by the looks of it. If I understand you properly, you are conceding that not all truth is contained in the bible. Really. As I said, the order of unity is in the seeking of truth. It's certainly not in the confusion over untruths. The order of unity is found in the love and tolerance of others seeking truth who don't see things your way rather than an arrogant religious order browbeating people into thinking they have the only truth in the world. Good luck with that. There is no church in the world that knows all truth, and there are none which know no truth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 19:37:56 GMT -5
Like WhatHat suggests, I also don't have a problem with the F&Ws calling themselves a New Testament Church. That is certainly their intention and they do make efforts in that direction. Of course they aren't an exact replica and never will be, but from Day One they were a Primitive Christian Restorationist Movement and will likely keep that effort in place for a long time to come. Personally, I wouldn't brag about being a New Testament Church. It doesn't take a lot of insight to understand that the 1st Century church was in pretty constant turmoil and trouble. The epistles were mostly written to address the problems that were arising and by the looks of it, there were lots. By the time John wrote the Revelations, there wasn't a lot of flattery in the messages to the 7 churches. Add to that, the evidence of a hierarchical structure of a church developing which was completely against the principles established by Jesus and you have something that shouldn't be copied. I think it would be better to be a New-New Testament Church by using the lessons learned throughout the centuries. CD In the early church men and women died for their beliefs. The workers won't even admit to being ministers Go figure ken They figure they are apostles, not clergy. That said, the Frandle incident was clearly a dodge to wiggle out of a misdemeanour. It's too bad he wouldn't stand up for his beliefs.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 5, 2014 19:48:44 GMT -5
I don't see 'personally a healthy thing' or 'freedom of association' in either OT or NT scripture. Where are you finding that - either scripturally written or in the practice of the NT church - or in the early fathers' writings? I see: complete or perfect unity, maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, doctrine of the Lord persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, trustworthy message as taught, must teach sound doctrine, doctrine of Christ, traditions (or ordinances) as I delivered them to you, being trained in the words of the faith, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..... The only time unity is any good is when you possess the truth to begin with. The real truth is this: mankind is still struggling to learn the truth so in the meantime, real unity is found in the chaos of seeking the truth, not in the unity of trying to rationalize hubris. CD Unity is found amongst those in Christ, Unity is hard to find when you look for it denominations, There is no division in the Body of Christ! ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 5, 2014 19:51:45 GMT -5
The prophets of the OT were God-designated messengers. So were the 12 original apostles. A person did not volunteer to be a prophet--prophets were handpicked by God. "For the prophecy came NOT in old time BY THE WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," 2 Pet 1:21. "I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit...and the LORD said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel..." Amos 7:14-15. It was such a memorable event when God chose and approached the prophet-to-be, that many wrote about it: "...the word of the LORD which came…" to Samuel, to Ezekiel, to Hosea, to Joel, to Jonah, to Micah, to Zephaniah; to Haggai, to Zechariah. (Also Jer. 14:14; 23:21). Personally, I firmly believe the days are past for Prophets and Apostles of their quality--they ended with John--dont ask me which John tho! Here's the verses I use to support my belief: Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Bottom line IMO--it is impossible for the workers to be prophets or apostles. Cherie spot on ken
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 19:56:46 GMT -5
But we agree by the looks of it. If I understand you properly, you are conceding that not all truth is contained in the bible. No need for me to concede - as I never said the Bible contains all truth (that is to be known).
Really. As I said, the order of unity is in the seeking of truth. Where do you find that in scripture or in Tradition handed down? The unity is in remaining in the teaching (doctrine) of the Apostles as handed down and the Traditions as delivered and handed down.
I believe it reads: maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, Good luck with that. There is no church in the world that knows all truth, and there are none which know no truth. Well it's good then that I didn't say there is a church that knows all truth.
Although there is the NT church to which Jesus promised the guiding of the Holy Spirit to all truth - the one that fulfills the tenets Jesus commanded. Somewhere ....
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 22:29:48 GMT -5
Like WhatHat suggests, I also don't have a problem with the F&Ws calling themselves a New Testament Church. That is certainly their intention and they do make efforts in that direction. Of course they aren't an exact replica and never will be, but from Day One they were a Primitive Christian Restorationist Movement and will likely keep that effort in place for a long time to come. Personally, I wouldn't brag about being a New Testament Church. It doesn't take a lot of insight to understand that the 1st Century church was in pretty constant turmoil and trouble. The epistles were mostly written to address the problems that were arising and by the looks of it, there were lots. By the time John wrote the Revelations, there wasn't a lot of flattery in the messages to the 7 churches. Add to that, the evidence of a hierarchical structure of a church developing which was completely against the principles established by Jesus and you have something that shouldn't be copied. I think it would be better to be a New-New Testament Church by using the lessons learned throughout the centuries. The Catholic church and others believe that the Holy Spirit has dispensed additional "lessons" since New Testament days. The problem with that kind of thinking is that it allows for all kinds of strange embellishments in doctrine, like the metaphysical incarnation of God as Jesus Christ. The danger in being a primitive Christian restorationist movement is in taking the New Testament too literally. After all, a major part of Jesus message was to get the Jewish people back to basic principles (love God, love your neighbour, on these two hang all the law and prophets) and away from a literal interpretation of the law. Now, the restoration movements seem to be starting on the "law" thing all over again by insisting that the ministry and the church should be run in a very specific way. But the basic impulse is a good one.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 22:31:51 GMT -5
Personally I think that's probably a healthy thing, sometimes known as 'freedom of association'. Certainly preferable to totalitarian uniformity, which seems to be the only alternative. I don't see 'personally a healthy thing' or 'freedom of association' in either OT or NT scripture. Where are you finding that - either scripturally written or in the practice of the NT church - or in the early fathers' writings? I see: complete or perfect unity, maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, doctrine of the Lord persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, trustworthy message as taught, must teach sound doctrine, doctrine of Christ, traditions (or ordinances) as I delivered them to you, being trained in the words of the faith, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..... Well, we should love our neighbour, but let's not forget that good fences make good neighbours. So to love our neighour .... build a good fence.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 22:38:43 GMT -5
What Hat, the deacons role is not to fill in when the elder is away. The elder and deacons have different roles. The workers also do a lot of jobs that deacons should be appointed to do. The workers church is no more near the NT church than many other churches. As we have seen here, the roles of worker is blurred. At least in this part of the country, various people would fill in for the elder when he was away. Don't know how things are run where you are. The evaluation of being near or not near the New Testament isn't really relevant when we speak of New Testament churches. It's just a characterization or approach to Scripture, taking the NT as more prescriptive than other churches do. It doesn't necessarily make a church any better, in my view, to be a "New Testament" church.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 22:46:24 GMT -5
And I'm still not finding the scriptural teaching of 'freedom of association' - in man's free will, yes; but not in regard to scriptural unity and truth. Jesus "associated" with publicans, harlots, Samaritans trying to bring all men and women to liberty (Gal 5:1). Of course, it wasn't too many centuries and his followers had returned to a yoke of bondage under the non-Scriptural creeds, which took a thousand years to shake off. Then you were in if you bowed down to their false idol, and out if you didn't. Is denominationalism a good thing? It's a good thing that we are free to associate with others as we see fit, when it means that we work together in common cause. It's a bad thing when we don't get along, but that's still preferable to being forced to get along.
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 22:56:14 GMT -5
And I'm still not finding the scriptural teaching of 'freedom of association' - in man's free will, yes; but not in regard to scriptural unity and truth. Jesus "associated" with publicans, harlots, Samaritans trying to bring all men and women to liberty (Gal 5:1). Of course, it wasn't too many centuries and his followers had returned to a yoke of bondage under the non-Scriptural creeds, which took a thousand years to shake off. Then you were in if you bowed down to their false idol, and out if you didn't. Is denominationalism a good thing? It's a good thing that we are free to associate with others as we see fit, when it means that we work together in common cause. It's a bad thing when we don't get along, but that's still preferable to being forced to get along. Along with false accusations of the early church and beyond - you still don't answer to Christ's call to unity of teaching and belief; and in keeping his commands for worship in the NT church. This is about the NT church - not about associating with publicans and sinners in a non-worship setting.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 23:20:37 GMT -5
Jesus "associated" with publicans, harlots, Samaritans trying to bring all men and women to liberty (Gal 5:1). Of course, it wasn't too many centuries and his followers had returned to a yoke of bondage under the non-Scriptural creeds, which took a thousand years to shake off. Then you were in if you bowed down to their false idol, and out if you didn't. Is denominationalism a good thing? It's a good thing that we are free to associate with others as we see fit, when it means that we work together in common cause. It's a bad thing when we don't get along, but that's still preferable to being forced to get along. Along with false accusations of the early church and beyond - you still don't answer to Christ's call to unity of teaching and belief; and in keeping his commands for worship in the NT church. This is about the NT church - not about associating with publicans and sinners in a non-worship setting. Good point, but the publicans, harlots and especially the Samaritans weren't allowed in the accepted places of worship so Jesus went to them. And so it still is and remains.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 23:33:20 GMT -5
I don't see 'personally a healthy thing' or 'freedom of association' in either OT or NT scripture. Where are you finding that - either scripturally written or in the practice of the NT church - or in the early fathers' writings? I see: complete or perfect unity, maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, doctrine of the Lord persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, trustworthy message as taught, must teach sound doctrine, doctrine of Christ, traditions (or ordinances) as I delivered them to you, being trained in the words of the faith, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..... Well, we should love our neighbour, but let's not forget that good fences make good neighbours. So to love our neighour .... build a good fence. . ... .. . or, just build a wall .. . and offer to pay for it !
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 23:36:19 GMT -5
Along with false accusations of the early church and beyond - you still don't answer to Christ's call to unity of teaching and belief; and in keeping his commands for worship in the NT church. This is about the NT church - not about associating with publicans and sinners in a non-worship setting. Good point, but the publicans, harlots and especially the Samaritans weren't allowed in the accepted places of worship so Jesus went to them. And so it still is and remains. Yes, charitably, it does. And it should. Though now, all are not only allowed but welcomed to worship according to Jesus' commands.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 23:40:05 GMT -5
Well, we should love our neighbour, but let's not forget that good fences make good neighbours. So to love our neighour .... build a good fence. . ... .. . or, just build a wall .. . and offer to pay for it ! Where I grew up, there were NO NEIGHBORS! Well, I guess there were if you counted the people who lived a mile away. Are those considered neighbors? I don't rightly know. Being the redneck I was raised I didn't know any different. It was "normal" to look outside and not see another house. It was "normal" to have to travel at least a mile to see a neighbor. And, the best fences were definitely BARBED WIRE. FWIW-bop
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 23:44:31 GMT -5
. ... .. . or, just build a wall .. . and offer to pay for it ! Where I grew up, there were NO NEIGHBORS! Well, I guess there were if you counted the people who lived a mile away. Are those considered neighbors? I don't rightly know. Being the redneck I was raised I didn't know any different. It was "normal" to look outside and not see another house. It was "normal" to have to travel at least a mile to see a neighbor. And, the best fences were definitely BARBED WIRE. FWIW-bop Then perhaps you lived in "Critter Country".
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