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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 5, 2014 10:59:50 GMT -5
One of the claims of the workers and friends is that they are a New Testament church. That what one reads in the New Testament, one can see in action today. That the Acts of the Apostles are still going on. Some friends and workers state that that is why the Book of Acts doesn't end with "Amen." because the book "The Acts of the Apostles" is still being written today by the workers.
Oops.
The workers and friends leave out a VERY important section of the book of Acts. Deacons. You know, Stephen. Philip. These are two very major players in the book of Acts. Deacons were setup to help the Apostles tend to the natural needs of the fellowship, help with the evangelizing, and to help maintain the running of the churches. Philip was married. Had 4 daughters. And preached. And baptized. It was the Spirit that sent him to help preach to the Eunuch and who Philip baptized.
So, a very important part of the New Testament church was deacons. The workers have already watered down the position of the elders/bishops to mere chair setter uppers, but where are the deacons in the fellowship?
I would think that a group cannot call themselves a New Testament church if the group isn't following the New Testament church.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 11:17:33 GMT -5
I found it interesting to see as a job listing on Facebook for a young brother worker to be, "new testament mister."
That was a new one for me. I have never heard that Acts was still being written. I am well aware that the bible is not followed by the worker and have ask them to their face why not. I of course was never give an answer.
To me they need to start with Matt. 5,6 and 7 and practice what is written there, before they move on to Acts.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 5, 2014 11:31:33 GMT -5
Explanation of "deacon" in Elders Meeting, Redmond, Oregon 1985 (Probably By Howard Mooney) In Titus 1, the terms 'Elder' and 'bishop' are used synonymously. We usually think of the one taking charge of the meeting when the Workers are away, as the ‘Elder' because he is chosen from among the older ones. In I Timothy 3:6 we are reminded that you would not give a novice this responsibility. They might not realize the seriousness of it. They might be filled with pride. You would make sure that they understood the seriousness of the responsibility that is given to them. Paul used the words ‘bishops’ and 'Elders' interchangeably. The word, 'bishop,'’ means an ‘overseer'.
In the first chapter of Philippians, Paul also referred to the “deacons,” as well as the Elder. We are often asked what is the responsibility of the deacon? He was the one who took charge of the meeting when the Elder was not there. We like to follow the same pattern today. We like someone appointed to lead the meeting when the Elder is not there. That way there is no confusion. We found out one time that when an Elder was away his wife would ask some man in the meeting to lead the meeting. You would know that such was out of order. If for some reason you need to be away from your little flock, and you do not have someone to take your place, let us know so that the meeting can be directed as the Lord intended.
In the New, Testament days, there was more work involved than there is today because the church was responsible for the widows and the needy. There was no social security, benefits or other provision made and that is why the deacons were given this responsibility. That is what Paul was talking about when he said, "Let not a widow be taken into the number under three score years, well reported of for good works, etc."
By Eldon Tenniswood - 1975 California Elders Meeting: Thinking of this meeting, Philippians 1:1 came to me, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi with the bishops and deacons." This is God's perfect plan, and this is why He gave us elders, or bishops, to help us in this work. You will notice in this chapter that it speaks of Paul and Timothy as servants of Jesus Christ. Then it mentions the saints, bishops and deacons. This is what we have in the meeting here tonight. We have those who have gone forth to carry the gospel message, and I am glad to be numbered among them. Then there are elders, or bishops, who have been entrusted with the care of a meeting in their home. There are deacons, or those who are helping the elders or bishops. Then there are the saints.
This is God's perfect plan, and as we work together, we have fellowship- one with another. The church is subject to the elder, and we would like you to remember that the elder is subject to the servants (the ministers) in our fellowship, and the ministers are subject to Christ, and Christ is subject to God. When we all fill our place, there is fellowship. This is the purpose of our meeting - to strengthen this fellowship we have in Christ. This meeting is for the elders mostly. But then there are those who assist the elder, and they must know their responsibilities. We are very happy to have you children here because you have responsibilities, as the meeting is in your hone. You children are and have a reverence for God, and as you keep true to God, then He can use you to help other people see that this fellowship is of God.
Titus1: 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6) If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;Link to full text for above quotes: Notes of Elders Meetings
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 5, 2014 11:32:40 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers?
The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST):
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist."
We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs--where are the pastors and teachers?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 11:34:39 GMT -5
One of the claims of the workers and friends is that they are a New Testament church. That what one reads in the New Testament, one can see in action today. That the Acts of the Apostles are still going on. Some friends and workers state that that is why the Book of Acts doesn't end with "Amen." because the book "The Acts of the Apostles" is still being written today by the workers. Oops. The workers and friends leave out a VERY important section of the book of Acts. Deacons. You know, Stephen. Philip. These are two very major players in the book of Acts. Deacons were setup to help the Apostles tend to the natural needs of the fellowship, help with the evangelizing, and to help maintain the running of the churches. Philip was married. Had 4 daughters. And preached. And baptized. It was the Spirit that sent him to help preach to the Eunuch and who Philip baptized. So, a very important part of the New Testament church was deacons. The workers have already watered down the position of the elders/bishops to mere chair setter uppers, but where are the deacons in the fellowship? I would think that a group cannot call themselves a New Testament church if the group isn't following the New Testament church. This is a very inconvenient observation.Please delete this post! Hasn't Bert cautioned us to be very careful how we interpret the activities of Stephen and Philip. Just because there is overwhelming inference that these guys were preaching on their own, not only with the approval of God, but in fact with his actual agency,does not mean they did not have companions with them, even if they didn't! Actually on careful examination the text says the Apostles called the rest of the disciples together. This likely included most, if not all of the 70 or 72 that Jesus also sent out. Up to that time each group had only been sent out once on short term missions. The Apostles knew that they had a special calling and were to devote themselves solely to preaching the message of God. They asked the remainder of disciples to look out 7 men, wise, of honest report and full of the Holy Ghost to look after the widows and orphans needs. Stephen and Philip, who may have been part of the 70, were preachers because we are told that. This strongly infers the other 5 were likewise. Also it is probable the other disciples were spreading the message as well. What this portion of scripture CLEARLY instructs us is that YES there were those (specially chosen) to devote themselves to spreading the Gospel message, AND there were others who filled other offices and operated on a localised manner, but who also carried out duties identical to the Apostles, such as preaching, teaching, working miracles etc. These guys were identical to the disciple who John and his companion forbad from casting out demons because he had not the special calling to go out like the 12 and sent out in pairs. They had no objection to him preaching (alone and probably localised), but because they were swell headed at being able to work miracles, they were jealous of him doing it. Jesus had to chastise them. The Apostles learned and accepted that God will work through whom he will, e.g. Stephen, Philip, et al.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 11:37:49 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers? The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST): Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist." We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs-- where are the pastors and teachers?Perhaps even more important, all these roles were sent for the perfecting of the church. How is it possible for an itinerant ministry on its own to perfect the church, especially during the long periods when they are not there?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 11:57:05 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers? The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST): Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist." We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs-- where are the pastors and teachers?I have heard it specifically preached that all workers are all 5: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Add to that, they practice the role of Elder and Overseer.....and when it comes to convention, they are the Deacons as well. It keeps them busy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 12:02:50 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers? The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST): Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist." We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs-- where are the pastors and teachers? I have heard it specifically preached that all workers are all 5: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
Add to that, they practice the role of Elder and Overseer.....and when it comes to convention, they are the Deacons as well. It keeps them busy. That's how it was explained to me as well. The workers fulfill all of these roles. However the reference in Acts that SD mentions shows that the Apostles rejected most of these roles and asked the rest of the disciples to deal with them.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 5, 2014 12:11:09 GMT -5
Explanation of "deacon" in Elders Meeting, Redmond, Oregon 1985 (Probably By Howard Mooney) In Titus 1, the terms 'Elder' and 'bishop' are used synonymously. We usually think of the one taking charge of the meeting when the Workers are away, as the ‘Elder' because he is chosen from among the older ones. In I Timothy 3:6 we are reminded that you would not give a novice this responsibility. They might not realize the seriousness of it. They might be filled with pride. You would make sure that they understood the seriousness of the responsibility that is given to them. Paul used the words ‘bishops’ and 'Elders' interchangeably. The word, 'bishop,'’ means an ‘overseer'.
In the first chapter of Philippians, Paul also referred to the “deacons,” as well as the Elder. We are often asked what is the responsibility of the deacon? He was the one who took charge of the meeting when the Elder was not there. We like to follow the same pattern today. We like someone appointed to lead the meeting when the Elder is not there. That way there is no confusion. We found out one time that when an Elder was away his wife would ask some man in the meeting to lead the meeting. You would know that such was out of order. If for some reason you need to be away from your little flock, and you do not have someone to take your place, let us know so that the meeting can be directed as the Lord intended.
In the New, Testament days, there was more work involved than there is today because the church was responsible for the widows and the needy. There was no social security, benefits or other provision made and that is why the deacons were given this responsibility. That is what Paul was talking about when he said, "Let not a widow be taken into the number under three score years, well reported of for good works, etc."
By Eldon Tenniswood - 1975 California Elders Meeting: Thinking of this meeting, Philippians 1:1 came to me, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi with the bishops and deacons." This is God's perfect plan, and this is why He gave us elders, or bishops, to help us in this work. You will notice in this chapter that it speaks of Paul and Timothy as servants of Jesus Christ. Then it mentions the saints, bishops and deacons. This is what we have in the meeting here tonight. We have those who have gone forth to carry the gospel message, and I am glad to be numbered among them. Then there are elders, or bishops, who have been entrusted with the care of a meeting in their home. There are deacons, or those who are helping the elders or bishops. Then there are the saints.
This is God's perfect plan, and as we work together, we have fellowship- one with another. The church is subject to the elder, and we would like you to remember that the elder is subject to the servants (the ministers) in our fellowship, and the ministers are subject to Christ, and Christ is subject to God. When we all fill our place, there is fellowship. This is the purpose of our meeting - to strengthen this fellowship we have in Christ. This meeting is for the elders mostly. But then there are those who assist the elder, and they must know their responsibilities. We are very happy to have you children here because you have responsibilities, as the meeting is in your hone. You children are and have a reverence for God, and as you keep true to God, then He can use you to help other people see that this fellowship is of God.
Titus1: 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6) If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;Link to full text for above quotes: Notes of Elders Meetings
Yikes! I hardly no where to begin after reading this. I suppose I could begin with... when the Cornerstone is the workers and their form of ministry... then the workers, like Howard did here... have to make up stuff. No where does it say that the deacons were set to help the bishops (or elders.) The workers have perverted the New Testament church into the "Worker church". Since they do not trust the friends, the friends are not allowed to be elders or deacons. The elder is not a true elder as per biblical instruction. Just ask the elders in Canada who were excommunicated. Howard said the "Worker church" doctrine very well- the hiearchy, according to the workers is- God, Christ, worker, bishop (elder), deacon, saint, child of a saint. He wrote that the workers are subject Christ. Whoop tee doo. So are the elders, the deacons (which do not exist in the fellowship), and saints. We are all directly subject to Christ and do not have to follow a hiearchy to be able to speak or listen to Him, or to be led by Him. This, is a fact that the workers REFUSE to acknowledge, that the Spirit can direct in the lives of the Saints without the workers having to micro manage them. They claim, like Bert has recently about Philip and the deacons, that allowing such would lead to chaos. Nope, it would lead to less chaos, as God is not the author of confusion. The workers are very much the authors of confusion as they refuse to trust the leading of the Spirit. New Testament church. Hardly. A better word for it would be, the "Worker's New New Testament Church". (But not an improved church. It is hard to improve on what God ordained, but the workers think that they have a better method than God.)
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Post by Mary on Jan 5, 2014 12:13:25 GMT -5
A bit like scrambled eggs. Throw it all in the pot and wait and see what comes out. A bit of this and a bit of that and they come out as workers. This to me is the main reason they are not the New Testament church. Their roles are not clearly defined.
I also grew up believing that there were deacons in meetings and that was the person who took the meeting when the elder was away. It's not what the Bible says a deacon is. The workers also take the role of deacon which is 'serving tables' so that the apostles could give their time to teaching the word. They can't be both. It also says that elders and deacons must be the husband of one wife. Well the workers don't even have a wife let alone one.
Churches which they claim are false have these roles clearly defined just like the New Testament church.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 5, 2014 12:15:08 GMT -5
I found it interesting to see as a job listing on Facebook for a young brother worker to be, "new testament mister." That was a new one for me. I have never heard that Acts was still being written. I am well aware that the bible is not followed by the worker and have ask them to their face why not. I of course was never give an answer. To me they need to start with Matt. 5,6 and 7 and practice what is written there, before they move on to Acts. I've read the equivalent of the bolded above in a number of sermon notes. The worker misuse Acts 1:1 to show the atoning work of Jesus isnt finished. And they claim Jesus needs the workers to help Him finish His Work: Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,They assert the work of Christ is not finished, and that in the face of John 17:4, when He said, "I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do:" and also of that memorable peace-giving and victorious cry of the dying Saviour on the cross — "It is finished" (John 19:30). In support of this strange contention they quote, and again wholly misapply Acts 1:1, "Of all that Jesus began both to do and teach." The Cooneyites thus claim to be carrying on the work of Christ which He only began but did not finish. They have even gone the length of blasphemously pronouncing one of their preachers to be "Jesus Christ come in flesh!" (Source: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/rulewm.php)The COONEYITES trace their origin from the previously mentioned scripture references where Jesus sent out the twelve, then later the seventy also. These they say are the original ones of their convocation. They believe that Jesus could have sinned, but that He didn't, and that He started a work which they are now carrying on. They quote Acts 1:1 as proof - "of all that Jesus began both do and teach." They disregard Jesus' words in John 19"30 - "IT IS FINISHED," referring to the finished work of Christ on Calvary for our redemption. (Source: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/cunningcult.php)
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 12:16:31 GMT -5
I have heard it specifically preached that all workers are all 5: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
Add to that, they practice the role of Elder and Overseer.....and when it comes to convention, they are the Deacons as well. It keeps them busy. That's how it was explained to me as well. The workers fulfill all of these roles. However the reference in Acts that SD mentions shows that the Apostles rejected most of these roles and asked the rest of the disciples to deal with them. Arguably the other positions can be combined, but deacon and apostle/ disciple cannot be. In Acts 6 roles were established so that those looking after the ministry would not have to "wait on tables". I don't have much problem though with the friends and other conservative denominations that refer to themselves as "New Testament" churches. Such denominations apply the New Testament more literally than most other denominations do. It's virtually impossible to apply the entire New Testament as prescriptive, so one will find differences from what we read in the New Testament, and also different "New Testament" denominations will apply various verses differently. Personally, I've never been troubled by such things as far as the friends and workers are concerned. But on Acts 6, as the posts here point up, there is little to argue about. For those who believe that the New Testament establishes a pattern for churches for all time, the separation of offices between spiritual and worldly concerns can't just be glossed over or ignored. If you combine deacon work, matters of finance, administration and government, with ministry, you're simply not following the apostles' doctrine and fellowship. In fact, even traditional denominations, who tend not to take the New Testament all that literally, do apply the "Acts 6" principle even though their ministry is paid, non-itinerant and married. Typically a given church is organized into a local board consisting of elders and deacons, and a minister or ministers which have to account to board on non-spiritual matters. This division can lead to confrontation at times, but the flip side is that the two sides act as a check and balance on each other. Clearly the "Acts 6" principle has stood the test of time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 12:23:25 GMT -5
Arguably the other positions can be combined, but deacon and apostle or disciple cannot be. In Acts 6 roles were established so that those looking after the ministry would not have to "wait on tables".
I have no problem with overlap of roles or of persons occupying several roles. That obviously happens everywhere. However, restricting every role to a privileged few is very problematic, especially for a travelling ministry.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 5, 2014 12:31:13 GMT -5
Acts 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 12:31:43 GMT -5
A bit like scrambled eggs. Throw it all in the pot and wait and see what comes out. A bit of this and a bit of that and they come out as workers. This to me is the main reason they are not the New Testament church. Their roles are not clearly defined. I also grew up believing that there were deacons in meetings and that was the person who took the meeting when the elder was away. It's not what the Bible says a deacon is. The workers also take the role of deacon which is 'serving tables' so that the apostles could give their time to teaching the word. They can't be both. It also says that elders and deacons must be the husband of one wife. Well the workers don't even have a wife let alone one. Churches which they claim are false have these roles clearly defined just like the New Testament church. No, I think that that particular use of the term 'deacon' is quite correct. That is, a deacon is anyone who assists with the "waiting on tables", that is taking the meeting at various times, driving people to meeting, helping to set up overseas conventions and meetings, and so on. (As a footnote the word 'deacon' only appears in 1 Timothy, but has come to be associated with Acts 6, with Stephen thought of as a deacon in the early church). It's clear that whatever you want to call it, there are servants in God's kingdom outside of ministry, and on that point the f&w surely don't disagree. But Acts 6 provides a fairly clear division of responsibility that the workers don't really follow, somewhat at their peril. They often get entangled with matters of this world, and do a poor job of it. The CSA issue is a clear example of that. They should have set up a committee or board on this issue a long time ago, as there are friends with professional qualifications that could handle the issue for them. That's deacon work. I think the problem is this idea that "we are not an organization". Again, Acts 6 allows the ministry and spiritual matters to be unorganized. But clearly, matters of this world, from the homes people stay at during special meeting time, to matters of convention properties, health codes and various social issues, all require a level of organization. This doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit does not rule these things in the large sense of everyone working together and making things work. But even the apostles in Acts 6 recognized that human intervention would be required on many minor matters.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 12:33:54 GMT -5
Arguably the other positions can be combined, but deacon and apostle or disciple cannot be. In Acts 6 roles were established so that those looking after the ministry would not have to "wait on tables". I have no problem with overlap of roles or of persons occupying several roles. That obviously happens everywhere. However, restricting every role to a privileged few is very problematic, especially for a travelling ministry. Yes, I agree.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 5, 2014 13:52:26 GMT -5
All of this discussion is just another example of how the "church" started is have disagreements amongst themselves, beginning with Paul and the church at Jerusalem and started splitting!
eumh... wonder if the **TRUTH** might split into a couple or three, maybe four... groups and become many little *TRUTHS*
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 5, 2014 14:23:43 GMT -5
Another question along this line of thought...Where are the pastors and teachers? The Five-fold ministry Paul listed was made up of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers—(aka the APEST): Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: The workers are the evangelists; or at least that was what Hubert Childers told us in Dallas, TX gospel meetings. When someone asked him, "What do you do?" Hubert replied, "I am an evangelist." We understand the role of the Apostles and Prophets and Evangelists. That leaves the PTs-- where are the pastors and teachers?Hi Cherie, When I was a worker I was taught that those gifts were all about the workers- some workers are apostles, some are prophets, some are evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers. The workers are comprised of people with those 5 "gifts", with some workers better evangelist than others, and some better pastors, etc. As the saying goes, whenever all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. Since the workers are the authority on all church matters- from evangelizing, planning, preaching, distributors of funds, coordinators, and micro managers- basically only two titles are needed within the fellowship: worker - leader saint - follower.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2014 15:07:27 GMT -5
All of this discussion is just another example of how the "church" started is have disagreements amongst themselves, beginning with Paul and the church at Jerusalem and started splitting!
eumh... wonder if the **TRUTH** might split into a couple or three, maybe four... groups and become many little *TRUTHS* Personally I think that's probably a healthy thing, sometimes known as 'freedom of association'. Certainly preferable to totalitarian uniformity, which seems to be the only alternative.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 5, 2014 15:41:11 GMT -5
All of this discussion is just another example of how the "church" started is have disagreements amongst themselves, beginning with Paul and the church at Jerusalem and started splitting!
eumh... wonder if the **TRUTH** might split into a couple or three, maybe four... groups and become many little *TRUTHS* Personally I think that's probably a healthy thing, sometimes known as 'freedom of association'. Certainly preferable to totalitarian uniformity, which seems to be the only alternative. Freedom of association is indeed important in a government by the people, however, I wasn't thinking of that facet as to do with religion.
Not that it shouldn't be a right, -definitely it should be a right for religious people to associate with those in agreement with them.
That is what "freedom of religion" is all about.
However, the constantly changing and splitting off of religions simply indicates to me what I have said all along, that it is people are the ones who create their gods to suit themselves.
If they quite agree with the "god" someone else has created, they just leave and create one that they can agree with!
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 5, 2014 15:44:09 GMT -5
One of the claims of the workers and friends is that they are a New Testament church. That what one reads in the New Testament, one can see in action today. That the Acts of the Apostles are still going on. Some friends and workers state that that is why the Book of Acts doesn't end with "Amen." because the book "The Acts of the Apostles" is still being written today by the workers. Oops. The workers and friends leave out a VERY important section of the book of Acts. Deacons. You know, Stephen. Philip. These are two very major players in the book of Acts. Deacons were setup to help the Apostles tend to the natural needs of the fellowship, help with the evangelizing, and to help maintain the running of the churches. Philip was married. Had 4 daughters. And preached. And baptized. It was the Spirit that sent him to help preach to the Eunuch and who Philip baptized. So, a very important part of the New Testament church was deacons. The workers have already watered down the position of the elders/bishops to mere chair setter uppers, but where are the deacons in the fellowship? I would think that a group cannot call themselves a New Testament church if the group isn't following the New Testament church. The workers will claim to be the new Testament church yet believe that this no longer is true and it died with the first century church. Believe they would be called cessationist Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 15:56:53 GMT -5
Like WhatHat suggests, I also don't have a problem with the F&Ws calling themselves a New Testament Church. That is certainly their intention and they do make efforts in that direction. Of course they aren't an exact replica and never will be, but from Day One they were a Primitive Christian Restorationist Movement and will likely keep that effort in place for a long time to come.
Personally, I wouldn't brag about being a New Testament Church. It doesn't take a lot of insight to understand that the 1st Century church was in pretty constant turmoil and trouble. The epistles were mostly written to address the problems that were arising and by the looks of it, there were lots. By the time John wrote the Revelations, there wasn't a lot of flattery in the messages to the 7 churches. Add to that, the evidence of a hierarchical structure of a church developing which was completely against the principles established by Jesus and you have something that shouldn't be copied. I think it would be better to be a New-New Testament Church by using the lessons learned throughout the centuries.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 5, 2014 15:56:56 GMT -5
That leads to the question: Can anyone name a worker or workers who were considered "prophets" or "apostles"??
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Post by StAnne on Jan 5, 2014 16:01:33 GMT -5
Personally I think that's probably a healthy thing, sometimes known as 'freedom of association'. Certainly preferable to totalitarian uniformity, which seems to be the only alternative. I don't see 'personally a healthy thing' or 'freedom of association' in either OT or NT scripture. Where are you finding that - either scripturally written or in the practice of the NT church - or in the early fathers' writings? I see: complete or perfect unity, maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, doctrine of the Lord persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, trustworthy message as taught, must teach sound doctrine, doctrine of Christ, traditions (or ordinances) as I delivered them to you, being trained in the words of the faith, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 16:06:47 GMT -5
That leads to the question: Can anyone name a worker or workers who were considered "prophets" or "apostles"?? Generically, an apostle is a "messenger" or "ambassador" so it would be easy for anyone to lay claim to that. I think they all genuinely feel they fit that description. Do you mean by prophet as "soothsayer" or the more general definition of "divinely inspired teacher"? For the former, William Irvine would qualify for a soothsayer-type. I have heard quite a few others talk about the end times. George Gittens frequently spoke about the end times in the future. For the latter, again, I think most workers consider themselves divinely inspired....that's why you can only find God through attending gospel meetings.....to hear God speaking through them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 16:10:19 GMT -5
Personally I think that's probably a healthy thing, sometimes known as 'freedom of association'. Certainly preferable to totalitarian uniformity, which seems to be the only alternative. I don't see 'personally a healthy thing' or 'freedom of association' in either OT or NT scripture. Where are you finding that - either scripturally written or in the practice of the NT church - or in the early fathers' writings? I see: complete or perfect unity, maintain the unity, until we all reach unity in the faith, doctrine of the Lord persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, trustworthy message as taught, must teach sound doctrine, doctrine of Christ, traditions (or ordinances) as I delivered them to you, being trained in the words of the faith, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..... The only time unity is any good is when you possess the truth to begin with. The real truth is this: mankind is still struggling to learn the truth so in the meantime, real unity is found in the chaos of seeking the truth, not in the unity of trying to rationalize hubris.
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Post by gecko45 on Jan 5, 2014 16:18:47 GMT -5
Arguably the other positions can be combined, but deacon and apostle or disciple cannot be. In Acts 6 roles were established so that those looking after the ministry would not have to "wait on tables". I have no problem with overlap of roles or of persons occupying several roles. That obviously happens everywhere. However, restricting every role to a privileged few is very problematic, especially for a travelling ministry. I would seem to me that the early church had the apostles going about preaching Jesus and when converts were made and a church was established then they left it in the hands of a man who would have the qualities to be an Elder/Bishop/Deacon. This Bishop/Deacon/Elder would be responsible for the church and people who made up it members. The apostles would then be free to continue evangelizing. Todays purported New Testament Church retains all of these functions in the workers ministry; with a very firm hold.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2014 16:21:09 GMT -5
One of the claims of the workers and friends is that they are a New Testament church. That what one reads in the New Testament, one can see in action today. That the Acts of the Apostles are still going on. Some friends and workers state that that is why the Book of Acts doesn't end with "Amen." because the book "The Acts of the Apostles" is still being written today by the workers. Oops. The workers and friends leave out a VERY important section of the book of Acts. Deacons. You know, Stephen. Philip. These are two very major players in the book of Acts. Deacons were setup to help the Apostles tend to the natural needs of the fellowship, help with the evangelizing, and to help maintain the running of the churches. Philip was married. Had 4 daughters. And preached. And baptized. It was the Spirit that sent him to help preach to the Eunuch and who Philip baptized. So, a very important part of the New Testament church was deacons. The workers have already watered down the position of the elders/bishops to mere chair setter uppers, but where are the deacons in the fellowship? I would think that a group cannot call themselves a New Testament church if the group isn't following the New Testament church. Not long ago I'd run across Paul's accounting of the different people that were helpful in the Church....It seems to me that "Bishop" was what Paul himself was, and that elders and deacons were the regular church members who are appointed to be helping the Bishops with the Church's business! I had never noticed that before......seems elders WERE the mtg. leaders, but the deacons were the men who conducted the business of the church in that area...otherwords the deacons were actually doing what the workers are doing today as far as evangelical work and seeing to all the spiritual and physical needs of their church members. It seemed a necessary thing to divide these offices in those days simply as Paul, the Bishop or Apostle naturally would not be with any of the churches in those days every day!
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