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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2014 14:42:12 GMT -5
The elder was miffed at Brandon over the way he spoke that the composers of those hymns were saved people and outside the 2x2's at that....I had never heard the workers use that scripture where it says cnverts }Must be brought in! Well I hate to tell them that it is Jesus who says he must bring those sheep in to the fold. Also Jesus has said that no man can go to eternal heaven without "the Father" drawing them! There is NO indication that the Apostles or any other preacher was going to be the one who "brought" any one person to the fold....ALLthe preachers are to do is to "tell the gospel story"....what people do with that story lies entirely on God the Father...because Jesus said so..................................it is the Father that draws, Jesus saves and the holy Spirit accepts into the fold of God................................I am really very anxious for the workers to get smaller in themselves and realize that they are the "planters" and/or the "reapers"....their place of saying whether someone is saved is not fromt he hand of God....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2014 14:45:54 GMT -5
If things make it to where lyle Shultz can no longer be in VN...then I wonder if he'll be sent home and be on "resting" status? As long as LS is healthy, he won't be sent home as "resting". He will either be sent home for his "home visit" for a year as a regular worker there or found another country to fix. A third option is a world convention tour until he is found a country. I wouldn't be surprised that all foreign workers in VN are going have difficulty renewing any visas which are tourist visas if a list is given to the authorities. I read somewhere in some of those war torn countries that visas will not be renewed for any American minister or teacher....that all of them will have to go back to their native country! That makes me feel that those in Pakistan is the first right now, India falls right into that as well and actually VN has some pretty stiff rules for a claimed minister is given liberty to be in the country! This is what I think is so dangerous that the Canadian workers did their best to smear Chau so far wrong...they will probably cause this poor native worker to end up paying a high fine and might just be some prison time as well....I pray not!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2014 15:18:47 GMT -5
As long as LS is healthy, he won't be sent home as "resting". He will either be sent home for his "home visit" for a year as a regular worker there or found another country to fix. A third option is a world convention tour until he is found a country. I wouldn't be surprised that all foreign workers in VN are going have difficulty renewing any visas which are tourist visas if a list is given to the authorities. I read somewhere in some of those war torn countries that visas will not be renewed for any American minister or teacher....that all of them will have to go back to their native country! That makes me feel that those in Pakistan is the first right now, India falls right into that as well and actually VN has some pretty stiff rules for a claimed minister is given liberty to be in the country! This is what I think is so dangerous that the Canadian workers did their best to smear Chau so far wrong...they will probably cause this poor native worker to end up paying a high fine and might just be some prison time as well....I pray not! I suspect Chau will be ok. It is the foreign workers who are in VN under tourist visas who are in jeopardy of jail. As far as I know, there is no ban on Americans in Pakistan, nor in any countries that I am aware of except Cuba, and that is a US ban, not a Cuban ban I believe. There might be some countries that ban Americans but I'm not aware of any. Americans can travel to North Korea and Iran but the problem is a lack of consular or embassy support in those countries.....you're on your own there.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 2, 2014 15:34:45 GMT -5
Unless I misunderstand what overseers are like, I think any of them would consider exing those who disrupt the meetings. My understanding of Brandon getting the suggestion to find a place to worship where others believed as he did, wasn't because of how he thought, but rather about how he was acting/talking. A lot of people THINK as Brandon did, but they don't talk about it in their testimonies on Sunday morning, nor at convention. After all, Lyle Schober had an ongoing conversation/communication with Brandon for about a year if I remember right, and the issue was about Brandon being disruptive in meetings. As I have mentioned before, the fellowship does not belong to the people in it, but rather to the workers. That is the choice of the members of the church, as they allow the workers to call the shots. Scott, just a quick suggestion for clarification in place of "Brandon being disruptive in meetings". Brandon was saying things in his testimony that would have disrupted the workers' methods. I don't think he actually disrupted the meetings (which I think of as things like yelling out, "Hallelujah!" I can understand what you mean here. To me, being unruly would be someone being obnoxious/loud/uncouth etc. Disruptive to me just means that words or actions cause others to be uncomfortable and upsetting to the status quo. This guy would have been what I call disruptive, and the two little hooligans involved as unruly....... I got a laugh out of reading these posts. One of the funniest memories I have was when one of the more 'powerful' brother workers was speaking at Walla Walla convention when I was about 10 years old or so. My cousin Tony was sitting on the other side of my dad - we were separated for obvious reasons- I have no idea what the sermon was about but a rather large gentleman -the big fat guy to as we referred to him-- was sitting in the row ahead of us. Whenever the brother worker said something 'profound' the big fat guy would let out a loud AMEN BROTHER. This as you can imagine provided some welcome relief to a couple of bored kids, as it was not a 'normal' thing to do. We started chuckling and anticipating this response. Finally after about the 6th or 7th time, Tony started to giggle like a girl, which set me off with my own 'quiet' little snickering. By this time dad was having a hard time keeping a sober look also. Not easy to give a kid an evil eye when you are holding in your own laughter. The next hearty AMEN BROTHER was followed by what could only be described as a donkey bray by myself, and Tony started to laugh so hard he farted. Dad barely got us removed from the tent before he almost lost his false teeth laughing. We were scolded by dad as he chuckled away....... I always did get something out of those meetings as a kid..... Scott
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Post by Sylvestra on Jan 2, 2014 21:10:43 GMT -5
Scott, just a quick suggestion for clarification in place of "Brandon being disruptive in meetings". Brandon was saying things in his testimony that would have disrupted the workers' methods. I don't think he actually disrupted the meetings (which I think of as things like yelling out, "Hallelujah!" I can understand what you mean here. To me, being unruly would be someone being obnoxious/loud/uncouth etc. Disruptive to me just means that words or actions cause others to be uncomfortable and upsetting to the status quo. This guy would have been what I call disruptive, and the two little hooligans involved as unruly....... I got a laugh out of reading these posts. One of the funniest memories I have was when one of the more 'powerful' brother workers was speaking at Walla Walla convention when I was about 10 years old or so. My cousin Tony was sitting on the other side of my dad - we were separated for obvious reasons- I have no idea what the sermon was about but a rather large gentleman -the big fat guy to as we referred to him-- was sitting in the row ahead of us. Whenever the brother worker said something 'profound' the big fat guy would let out a loud AMEN BROTHER. This as you can imagine provided some welcome relief to a couple of bored kids, as it was not a 'normal' thing to do. We started chuckling and anticipating this response. Finally after about the 6th or 7th time, Tony started to giggle like a girl, which set me off with my own 'quiet' little snickering. By this time dad was having a hard time keeping a sober look also. Not easy to give a kid an evil eye when you are holding in your own laughter. The next hearty AMEN BROTHER was followed by what could only be described as a donkey bray by myself, and Tony started to laugh so hard he farted. Dad barely got us removed from the tent before he almost lost his false teeth laughing. We were scolded by dad as he chuckled away....... I always did get something out of those meetings as a kid..... Scott LOL!! Ah, I've got what you mean now!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 3, 2014 10:21:10 GMT -5
I read somewhere in some of those war torn countries that visas will not be renewed for any American minister or teacher....that all of them will have to go back to their native country! That makes me feel that those in Pakistan is the first right now, India falls right into that as well and actually VN has some pretty stiff rules for a claimed minister is given liberty to be in the country! This is what I think is so dangerous that the Canadian workers did their best to smear Chau so far wrong...they will probably cause this poor native worker to end up paying a high fine and might just be some prison time as well....I pray not! I suspect Chau will be ok. It is the foreign workers who are in VN under tourist visas who are in jeopardy of jail. As far as I know, there is no ban on Americans in Pakistan, nor in any countries that I am aware of except Cuba, and that is a US ban, not a Cuban ban I believe. There might be some countries that ban Americans but I'm not aware of any. Americans can travel to North Korea and Iran but the problem is a lack of consular or embassy support in those countries.....you're on your own there. Again, you didn't read what I wrote as I wrote it! I said that someone had mentioned that "Visas for American ministers and perhaps teachers" will NOT be Renewed! I take that as not being an American ban or a ban against Americans in general, but that it is NOT renewing Visas for certain class of foreigners, such as ministers! I've looked for that person's comments but failed to find them in all the plethora of communications. It may well have been their own personal summation of some kind of "news" that reached them! But I wouldn't be one bit surprised that the bans on all Americans might well start with the failure to renew the Visas for the American generic ministers.....esp. in lands where Christianity doesn't have a good stronghold and it is not looked very kindly upon by the powers that be in such countries....I would not be surprised that Pakistan, Afghanistan and some of the African nations that are falling to the rule by terriorists, will definitely want to rid those countries of anyone there with Christian purposes! They are not Christian people....they have their own sect of religion...which looks down upon Christianity!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 3, 2014 10:27:54 GMT -5
I read somewhere in some of those war torn countries that visas will not be renewed for any American minister or teacher....that all of them will have to go back to their native country! That makes me feel that those in Pakistan is the first right now, India falls right into that as well and actually VN has some pretty stiff rules for a claimed minister is given liberty to be in the country! This is what I think is so dangerous that the Canadian workers did their best to smear Chau so far wrong...they will probably cause this poor native worker to end up paying a high fine and might just be some prison time as well....I pray not! I suspect Chau will be ok. It is the foreign workers who are in VN under tourist visas who are in jeopardy of jail. As far as I know, there is no ban on Americans in Pakistan, nor in any countries that I am aware of except Cuba, and that is a US ban, not a Cuban ban I believe. There might be some countries that ban Americans but I'm not aware of any. Americans can travel to North Korea and Iran but the problem is a lack of consular or embassy support in those countries.....you're on your own there. Our VN friend mentioned that as far as the VN authority is concerned...Chau was written as the "head" or director of the friends and workers in VN....well, sadly he's been kicked out of VN, sent here and yon while those who took his place are only there as "tourists" and by VN authority would have NO right or NO place to be taking Chau's place and by Chau leaving the country, it looked like to the VN authority that he was rejecting his position OR he failed to notify the authority of said changes! We know Chau had NO choice, but the VN authority might not accept that reasoning! In the long run, what is it going to do for not only Chau but any other native worker and the friends as to the VN authority allowing them freedom of worship there?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 10:44:05 GMT -5
I suspect Chau will be ok. It is the foreign workers who are in VN under tourist visas who are in jeopardy of jail. As far as I know, there is no ban on Americans in Pakistan, nor in any countries that I am aware of except Cuba, and that is a US ban, not a Cuban ban I believe. There might be some countries that ban Americans but I'm not aware of any. Americans can travel to North Korea and Iran but the problem is a lack of consular or embassy support in those countries.....you're on your own there. Again, you didn't read what I wrote as I wrote it! I said that someone had mentioned that "Visas for American ministers and perhaps teachers" will NOT be Renewed! I take that as not being an American ban or a ban against Americans in general, but that it is NOT renewing Visas for certain class of foreigners, such as ministers! I've looked for that person's comments but failed to find them in all the plethora of communications. It may well have been their own personal summation of some kind of "news" that reached them! But I wouldn't be one bit surprised that the bans on all Americans might well start with the failure to renew the Visas for the American generic ministers.....esp. in lands where Christianity doesn't have a good stronghold and it is not looked very kindly upon by the powers that be in such countries....I would not be surprised that Pakistan, Afghanistan and some of the African nations that are falling to the rule by terriorists, will definitely want to rid those countries of anyone there with Christian purposes! They are not Christian people....they have their own sect of religion...which looks down upon Christianity! Again, I am not aware of any American ban on foreign travel, ministers or otherwise. There are numerous countries which restrict or disallow visas for religious workers, but nothing against Americans in particular and nothing to do with being "war torn" countries. They would have never gotten religious work visas in the first place so renewal wouldn't be an issue. Ministers are not banned from entering countries, however, religious activities may be not allowed or restricted in countries, mostly Muslim countries.....but also some former communist countries.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 10:47:45 GMT -5
I suspect Chau will be ok. It is the foreign workers who are in VN under tourist visas who are in jeopardy of jail. As far as I know, there is no ban on Americans in Pakistan, nor in any countries that I am aware of except Cuba, and that is a US ban, not a Cuban ban I believe. There might be some countries that ban Americans but I'm not aware of any. Americans can travel to North Korea and Iran but the problem is a lack of consular or embassy support in those countries.....you're on your own there. Our VN friend mentioned that as far as the VN authority is concerned...Chau was written as the "head" or director of the friends and workers in VN....well, sadly he's been kicked out of VN, sent here and yon while those who took his place are only there as "tourists" and by VN authority would have NO right or NO place to be taking Chau's place and by Chau leaving the country, it looked like to the VN authority that he was rejecting his position OR he failed to notify the authority of said changes! We know Chau had NO choice, but the VN authority might not accept that reasoning! In the long run, what is it going to do for not only Chau but any other native worker and the friends as to the VN authority allowing them freedom of worship there? The VN government recently enacted a decree restricting foreign travel for VN citizens involved in religious activities. All we know for sure is that Chau has been recalled to VN and nothing more. Everything else about his recall, based on the information from this site, is speculation.
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Post by quizzer on Jan 3, 2014 12:44:54 GMT -5
Our VN friend mentioned that as far as the VN authority is concerned...Chau was written as the "head" or director of the friends and workers in VN....well, sadly he's been kicked out of VN, sent here and yon while those who took his place are only there as "tourists" and by VN authority would have NO right or NO place to be taking Chau's place and by Chau leaving the country, it looked like to the VN authority that he was rejecting his position OR he failed to notify the authority of said changes! We know Chau had NO choice, but the VN authority might not accept that reasoning! In the long run, what is it going to do for not only Chau but any other native worker and the friends as to the VN authority allowing them freedom of worship there? The VN government recently enacted a decree restricting foreign travel for VN citizens involved in religious activities. All we know for sure is that Chau has been recalled to VN and nothing more. Everything else about his recall, based on the information from this site, is speculation. It's almost funny. Chau is being given a bad time by the foreign workers. However, in the eyes of the Vietnamese law, Chau is a citizen and the foreign workers have possibly fraudulent passports.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 13:10:30 GMT -5
The VN government recently enacted a decree restricting foreign travel for VN citizens involved in religious activities. All we know for sure is that Chau has been recalled to VN and nothing more. Everything else about his recall, based on the information from this site, is speculation. It's almost funny. Chau is being given a bad time by the foreign workers. However, in the eyes of the Vietnamese law, Chau is a citizen and the foreign workers have possibly fraudulent passports. This story would fit into Alice in Wonderland quite well and not look out of place.
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Post by quizzer on Jan 4, 2014 5:13:52 GMT -5
It's almost funny. Chau is being given a bad time by the foreign workers. However, in the eyes of the Vietnamese law, Chau is a citizen and the foreign workers have possibly fraudulent passports. This story would fit into Alice in Wonderland quite well and not look out of place. Well, Alice in Wonderland was a political satire of sorts. I can see the similarities.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 8:25:05 GMT -5
This story would fit into Alice in Wonderland quite well and not look out of place. Well, Alice in Wonderland was a political satire of sorts. I can see the similarities. I think "Malice in Wonderland" would be more appropriate?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 5, 2014 10:47:21 GMT -5
Well, Alice in Wonderland was a political satire of sorts. I can see the similarities. I think "Malice in Wonderland" would be more appropriate? Or, even more appropriate... "Malice in Workerland"
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Post by christiansburg on Jan 5, 2014 11:14:45 GMT -5
The elder was miffed at Brandon over the way he spoke that the composers of those hymns were saved people and outside the 2x2's at that....I had never heard the workers use that scripture where it says cnverts }Must be brought in! Well I hate to tell them that it is Jesus who says he must bring those sheep in to the fold. Also Jesus has said that no man can go to eternal heaven without "the Father" drawing them! There is NO indication that the Apostles or any other preacher was going to be the one who "brought" any one person to the fold....ALLthe preachers are to do is to "tell the gospel story"....what people do with that story lies entirely on God the Father...because Jesus said so..................................it is the Father that draws, Jesus saves and the holy Spirit accepts into the fold of God................................I am really very anxious for the workers to get smaller in themselves and realize that they are the "planters" and/or the "reapers"....their place of saying whether someone is saved is not fromt he hand of God.... Lillian Skilbred once said, "What we try to do is preach the gospel and let others do what they will with it. I think that is pretty much as you suggest. Leaving it up to the Holy Spirit and the Father to draw them to himself.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 5, 2014 15:12:15 GMT -5
The elder was miffed at Brandon over the way he spoke that the composers of those hymns were saved people and outside the 2x2's at that....I had never heard the workers use that scripture where it says cnverts }Must be brought in! Well I hate to tell them that it is Jesus who says he must bring those sheep in to the fold. Also Jesus has said that no man can go to eternal heaven without "the Father" drawing them! There is NO indication that the Apostles or any other preacher was going to be the one who "brought" any one person to the fold....ALLthe preachers are to do is to "tell the gospel story"....what people do with that story lies entirely on God the Father...because Jesus said so..................................it is the Father that draws, Jesus saves and the holy Spirit accepts into the fold of God................................I am really very anxious for the workers to get smaller in themselves and realize that they are the "planters" and/or the "reapers"....their place of saying whether someone is saved is not fromt he hand of God.... Lillian Skilbred once said, "What we try to do is preach the gospel and let others do what they will with it. I think that is pretty much as you suggest. Leaving it up to the Holy Spirit and the Father to draw them to himself. Since this was in regards to an excommunication, does that mean that the workers take on the mantle of deciding when a person isn't living by the Spirit and can kick them out of the fellowship. In this instance, that sign of not living by the Spirit was simply acknowledging the some hymns were written by people that the workers consider to be false prophets. And acknowledging that he had friends in other denominations that he considered to be Spirit led. The horror. It seems to me that Brandon seems to be more Spirit led than the workers and elders in this matter. So, does that mean that the workers should leave it to the Holy Spirit to handling the excommunications as well? Also, based on your theory, do the workers refuse to test a meeting for people that have been "drawn" and attending, but because they (the workers) do not think that the person is ready? Isn't that being a judge of the situation and not trusting the Holy Spirit? I think so. As a former worker, I know that meetings aren't tested until the person has made some indication that they believe in this fellowship as being the only true fellowship on the earth and the workers the only true preachers. It helps save time having to deal with situations, like Brandon's, when a person no longer feels that way. A person doesn't have to renounce Christ or the Spirit to be excommunicated- they simply have to lessen the importance of the workers in our personal relationship with God. Evidently, that is an excommunicatable offense.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2014 17:50:52 GMT -5
The elder was miffed at Brandon over the way he spoke that the composers of those hymns were saved people and outside the 2x2's at that....I had never heard the workers use that scripture where it says cnverts }Must be brought in! Well I hate to tell them that it is Jesus who says he must bring those sheep in to the fold. Also Jesus has said that no man can go to eternal heaven without "the Father" drawing them! There is NO indication that the Apostles or any other preacher was going to be the one who "brought" any one person to the fold....ALLthe preachers are to do is to "tell the gospel story"....what people do with that story lies entirely on God the Father...because Jesus said so..................................it is the Father that draws, Jesus saves and the holy Spirit accepts into the fold of God................................I am really very anxious for the workers to get smaller in themselves and realize that they are the "planters" and/or the "reapers"....their place of saying whether someone is saved is not fromt he hand of God.... Lillian Skilbred once said, "What we try to do is preach the gospel and let others do what they will with it. I think that is pretty much as you suggest. Leaving it up to the Holy Spirit and the Father to draw them to himself. I have always understood Jesus' thoughts on this that the "FAther drawing people first" was how it was done! Jesus also said that any man trying to go in any other way would not be welcome for they would be as a theif and robber. Perhaps God the Father draws folks into their repentance and after they'v emade acquaintance with their failings and sins, then they're ready to have an open ear and an anxious heart to not do those things again.....a dirty conscience is certainly a strong questioning of one's self!
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Post by christiansburg on Jan 5, 2014 18:45:10 GMT -5
Lillian Skilbred once said, "What we try to do is preach the gospel and let others do what they will with it. I think that is pretty much as you suggest. Leaving it up to the Holy Spirit and the Father to draw them to himself. Since this was in regards to an excommunication, does that mean that the workers take on the mantle of deciding when a person isn't living by the Spirit and can kick them out of the fellowship. In this instance, that sign of not living by the Spirit was simply acknowledging the some hymns were written by people that the workers consider to be false prophets. And acknowledging that he had friends in other denominations that he considered to be Spirit led. The horror. It seems to me that Brandon seems to be more Spirit led than the workers and elders in this matter. So, does that mean that the workers should leave it to the Holy Spirit to handling the excommunications as well? Also, based on your theory, do the workers refuse to test a meeting for people that have been "drawn" and attending, but because they (the workers) do not think that the person is ready? Isn't that being a judge of the situation and not trusting the Holy Spirit? I think so. As a former worker, I know that meetings aren't tested until the person has made some indication that they believe in this fellowship as being the only true fellowship on the earth and the workers the only true preachers. It helps save time having to deal with situations, like Brandon's, when a person no longer feels that way. A person doesn't have to renounce Christ or the Spirit to be excommunicated- they simply have to lessen the importance of the workers in our personal relationship with God. Evidently, that is an excommunicatable offense. I think your thoughts are very interesting and they are honest questions. As a former worker myself I agree with you in many ways. I remember an occasion many ago when we were closing a mission some of our friends told me that an individual was wanting to profess. I personally had not observed that the individual had such concern. Rather than visit with him, since it was the last meeting, I just extended the offer and he professed. I did not try to become a judge in the matter because I had assumed he had made that judgement himself. He is still professing 45 years later. I also agree with you about excommunication. I believe it is a horrible thing. I don't think we have the right to put people out because we don't espouse all their ideas. I believe what a person does with the gospel will be proven by themselves over their lifetime. What I suggested about preaching the gospel and letting people do what they will with it is certainly not a theory. It is a life proving work. They do what they will by choice and God is the judge in the end. What you suggested about a person lessening the importance of workers and then being excommunicated may have happened to some and I personally don't like that. What we don't have a record of here regarding Brandon is both sides of the story. That is, what did he actually say in meeting that was upsetting so many people. I haven't heard that part of it. I don't think the suggesting of people outside our fellowship writing hymns can be wrong. You can read the words and tell that that person was certainly moved by God. The words speak for themselves. I have heard George Walker talk about hymns written many years before Wm. Irvin's day as being God inspired and that those people would have had fellowship with God fearing people.
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Post by snow on Jan 5, 2014 19:22:10 GMT -5
Since this was in regards to an excommunication, does that mean that the workers take on the mantle of deciding when a person isn't living by the Spirit and can kick them out of the fellowship. In this instance, that sign of not living by the Spirit was simply acknowledging the some hymns were written by people that the workers consider to be false prophets. And acknowledging that he had friends in other denominations that he considered to be Spirit led. The horror. It seems to me that Brandon seems to be more Spirit led than the workers and elders in this matter. So, does that mean that the workers should leave it to the Holy Spirit to handling the excommunications as well? Also, based on your theory, do the workers refuse to test a meeting for people that have been "drawn" and attending, but because they (the workers) do not think that the person is ready? Isn't that being a judge of the situation and not trusting the Holy Spirit? I think so. As a former worker, I know that meetings aren't tested until the person has made some indication that they believe in this fellowship as being the only true fellowship on the earth and the workers the only true preachers. It helps save time having to deal with situations, like Brandon's, when a person no longer feels that way. A person doesn't have to renounce Christ or the Spirit to be excommunicated- they simply have to lessen the importance of the workers in our personal relationship with God. Evidently, that is an excommunicatable offense. I think your thoughts are very interesting and they are honest questions. As a former worker myself I agree with you in many ways. I remember an occasion many ago when we were closing a mission some of our friends told me that an individual was wanting to profess. I personally had not observed that the individual had such concern. Rather than visit with him, since it was the last meeting, I just extended the offer and he professed. I did not try to become a judge in the matter because I had assumed he had made that judgement himself. He is still professing 45 years later. I also agree with you about excommunication. I believe it is a horrible thing. I don't think we have the right to put people out because we don't espouse all their ideas. I believe what a person does with the gospel will be proven by themselves over their lifetime. What I suggested about preaching the gospel and letting people do what they will with it is certainly not a theory. It is a life proving work. They do what they will by choice and God is the judge in the end. What you suggested about a person lessening the importance of workers and then being excommunicated may have happened to some and I personally don't like that. What we don't have a record of here regarding Brandon is both sides of the story. That is, what did he actually say in meeting that was upsetting so many people. I haven't heard that part of it. I don't think the suggesting of people outside our fellowship writing hymns can be wrong. You can read the words and tell that that person was certainly moved by God. The words speak for themselves. I have heard George Walker talk about hymns written many years before Wm. Irvin's day as being God inspired and that those people would have had fellowship with God fearing people. You seem to have a healthy and compassionate view of it. I wouldn't want to be the one judging whether someone else had the 'right' relationship with God. We are a work in progress are we not.
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