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Post by fixit on Aug 8, 2013 22:32:49 GMT -5
So why do you think dealing with CSA is so far ahead of dealing with CPA? Partly because people like you are waiting for people to be convicted before they believe there is a problem. In the meantime people like Snow are others are telling people about the abuse they suffered growing up but because there was no arrest you choose to ignore it. Children are being abused and neglected every day. In the US, on average, 4 children die from abuse every day. Who says it is more difficult to report CSA? The physical side of abuse, whether it is physical or sexual, is not the more damaging part. It is the betrayal and the loss of trust. It is the lack of support from other trusted adults who do not support the victim. The victim is left alone with no one to turn to. In cases like Jean, the adult that was offering the love and attention she craved was not offering that 'love' and attention without a price. I know there's a CSA problem in the church so that's where I'll focus my efforts. Feel free to focus your efforts on CPA in the church. Ram will help you, because he shares your concerns. It would be much easier for a child to report that Uncle Jack broke my bones and bruised me, than to report that Uncle Jack had sex with me. Especially if Uncle Jack is highly esteemed by everyone the child knows.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2013 23:04:22 GMT -5
You and ram need to denounce all violence, as there is nothing loving in any kind of violence, including "soft" violence such as threats and put-downs. Intelligent spankings are neither violence, threats, or put-downs but interruptions to self-destructive behavior. "Intelligent spankings" is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist. All spankings are stupid.
Now just to be clear, I am not saying that spankers are stupid people. They are often very smart people doing a stupid thing.Loving parents do none of those things. Not true. Not every parent is so lucky to have a child that is never in need of a threat (what is the difference between a threat and warning to a consequence) or a put-down (what parent is so blessed they would never have a child in need of an attitude-adjustment.) No child needs to be threatened or put down, it is a form of violence and it's a great way to screw up their heads to an "attitude adjustment" that is worse than what he started with.Discipline and violence have no connection whatsoever, and only succeed in teaching a child that violence is the proper way to modify someone else's behaviour.....and that might equals right and that bullies always win. Two swats to the butt isn't violence. The exercise of physical force intended to inflict pain is violence. Just imagine your 5 year old child as being 6'2" tall and 220 lbs. of muscle. Would swatting him in the butt be perfectly acceptable then? Of course not, your own butt might get whupped...... Many fathers have had to discourage the physical intimitation of their grown sons .... physically. Will you categorically condemn them? We are discussion CPA here, Child Physical Abuse.
Now if a father has to deal with the physical intimidation of his grown sons, it tells me that the father is getting back what he put into those boys, and that's a whupping I could understand! What goes around, comes around.......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2013 23:12:35 GMT -5
From my own experience with my one particular child, this is my story:One of my boys was determined, assertive child who seemed to have the school calling me so often that I dreaded hearing the phone ring. I would spank him on the butt & not changing his behavior one iota. This was not the way I wanted to treat my children. I recognized spanking him was a failure on my part, not his. There had to be a better way. Luckily, right at that time there was a class offered on behavior management by our local superintendent. I don't believe that I ever took any class that was as important in my own behavior, than that class was! Think about it for a minute. What kind of an adult are you trying to raise? Isn't it a determined, assertive adult that can stand on their own feet as well as a kind & caring adult? If you tell the child that they aren't to be one way by hitting them, (yes, spanking in is hitting because you are bigger & the boss & they are smaller so they have to obey to you) just what are you teaching them? That if they are the boss or bigger than someone else they can hit them? When I learned to change my attitude & my behavior, my son's changed. I have a very caring, considerate son who wouldn't hurt a mouse but also effectively assertive enough that others don't take advantage of him. He is an artist that has exhibited in prestigious areas such as the U of Chicago. He is a caring son who will shingle my roof this fall .I can't go into all his attributes- too many! (PS: When I said he wouldn't harm a mouse, I wasn't exaggerating. once when were in his kitchen a small mouse started darting out from under the cupboards, grabbing crumbs & scurrying back.
When he told his girl friend about the mouse she said,
"What did you do? Fed it I suppose?"
She knew him well!)
-- Ok, Ok, - so feeding a mouse is going a bit far! I would rather he were that way than beating up on someone!
[/b][/font] [/quote] Hey, stop talking about my kids! Great story, thanks for that as it is very close to the process I went through on my first child although I stopped the spankings only a few months after I started, long before starting school. It's one of the best contrary decisions I ever made.....ie contrary to conventional wisdom. My kids are as gentle as they come, and the idea of using physical violence on anyone for any reason is totally foreign to them. You reap what you sow......one of the greatest pieces of timeless wisdom.
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Post by rational on Aug 8, 2013 23:43:45 GMT -5
I know there's a CSA problem in the church so that's where I'll focus my efforts. No one said there wasn't a CSA issue in the church. Do you think people like Snow and theolegranni are just making it all up? Either there is a problem with physical abuse in the church or they are lying. You have read their stories yet you deny there is a problem. The focus is on child abuse. The effects are much the same regardless how the abuse is classified. Perhaps the greatest difference is that physical abuse actually kills children. And how do you know this is the case? Have you had a lot of experience with abused children?
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Post by rational on Aug 8, 2013 23:51:10 GMT -5
So why do you think dealing with CSA is so far ahead of dealing with CPA? Its much harder for CSA victims to report than it is for CPA victims, yet there's not one F&W in prison for CPA? I think Snow provided an answer to this. Do you have experience that contradicts her response?
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Post by fixit on Aug 8, 2013 23:55:27 GMT -5
I know there's a CSA problem in the church so that's where I'll focus my efforts. No one said there wasn't a CSA issue in the church. Do you think people like Snow and theolegranni are just making it all up? Either there is a problem with physical abuse in the church or they are lying. You have read their stories yet you deny there is a problem. I'm pretty sure they're not lying. You and Ram have something to work with there. Go for it!The focus is on child abuse. The effects are much the same regardless how the abuse is classified. Perhaps the greatest difference is that physical abuse actually kills children. Figure out which children in the church have been killed by CPA, and report it to the police. The sooner the better.And how do you know this is the case? Have you had a lot of experience with abused children? I've had enough experience with "sexually abused as children in the church" people to feel pretty motivated to do something about it.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2013 0:11:24 GMT -5
No one said there wasn't a CSA issue in the church. Do you think people like Snow and theolegranni are just making it all up? Either there is a problem with physical abuse in the church or they are lying. You have read their stories yet you deny there is a problem. I'm pretty sure they're not lying. You and Ram have something to work with there. Go for it!I see. So you know there is a problem with physical abuse in the church but you choose to ignore it. At least until someone does something bad enough that they are charged and convicted. Sounds like a great plan. So until there is a dead child we will just ignore the stories of people who are willing to come forward and tell of the abuse that is not being reported and pretend that it is not a problem and focus on the sexual abuse. Not really an answer. You are motivated but how much experience have you had? What makes you think reporting CSA is more difficult? Because there are more reports? Projection? Or do you think those who have been abused don't really know? Let's think about a 4 year old. Why would CSA for them be harder to report? Or easier? Uncle Bob exposes himself to the 4 year old. Do you know a 4 year old that would care? Be shocked? Be afraid to report it because it was CSA? And then Uncle Bob grabs the 4 year old by the shoulders and hurts the child saying "You had better not tell anyone!" And when Mom undresses the child and asks about the bruises on the shoulders will one form of abuse be any more difficult for the child?
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2013 0:19:30 GMT -5
Child sexual abuse: A hidden type of abuse Child sexual abuse is an especially complicated form of abuse because of its layers of guilt and shame. It's important to recognize that sexual abuse doesn't always involve body contact. Exposing a child to sexual situations or material is sexually abusive, whether or not touching is involved. While news stories of sexual predators are scary, what is even more frightening is that sexual abuse usually occurs at the hands of someone the child knows and should be able to trust—most often close relatives. And contrary to what many believe, it’s not just girls who are at risk. Boys and girls both suffer from sexual abuse. In fact, sexual abuse of boys may be underreported due to shame and stigma. The problem of shame and guilt in child sexual abuse Aside from the physical damage that sexual abuse can cause, the emotional component is powerful and far-reaching. Sexually abused children are tormented by shame and guilt. They may feel that they are responsible for the abuse or somehow brought it upon themselves. This can lead to self-loathing and sexual problems as they grow older—often either excessive promiscuity or an inability to have intimate relations. The shame of sexual abuse makes it very difficult for children to come forward. They may worry that others won’t believe them, will be angry with them, or that it will split their family apart. Because of these difficulties, false accusations of sexual abuse are not common, so if a child confides in you, take him or her seriously. Don’t turn a blind eye! www.helpguide.org/mental/child_abuse_physical_emotional_sexual_neglect.htm
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2013 0:40:34 GMT -5
Let's think about a 4 year old. Why would CSA for them be harder to report? Or easier? Uncle Bob exposes himself to the 4 year old. Do you know a 4 year old that would care? Be shocked? Be afraid to report it because it was CSA? And then Uncle Bob grabs the 4 year old by the shoulders and hurts the child saying "You had better not tell anyone!" And when Mom undresses the child and asks about the bruises on the shoulders will one form of abuse be any more difficult for the child? This is so ridiculous it hardly deserves a reply. For the rest of my life I'll have to live with the consequences of a sexually abused four-year-old, who would much rather have had cuts, bruises and broken bones. At least cuts, bruises and broken bones can be seen and can heal and the victim can move on. With CSA, something dies within the child.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2013 1:21:06 GMT -5
Let's think about a 4 year old. Why would CSA for them be harder to report? Or easier? Uncle Bob exposes himself to the 4 year old. Do you know a 4 year old that would care? Be shocked? Be afraid to report it because it was CSA? And then Uncle Bob grabs the 4 year old by the shoulders and hurts the child saying "You had better not tell anyone!" And when Mom undresses the child and asks about the bruises on the shoulders will one form of abuse be any more difficult for the child? This is so ridiculous it hardly deserves a reply. For the rest of my life I'll have to live with the consequences of a sexually abused four-year-old, who would much rather have had cuts, bruises and broken bones. At least cuts, bruises and broken bones can be seen and can heal and the victim can move on. With CSA, something dies within the child. Did you read the help guide you referenced above? Why do you only about 8% of the content had to do with sexual abuse? Were the authors being realistic? But never mind that. You are motivated to focus only on abuse that has a sexual component. I wish you the best in you endeavors.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 4:26:28 GMT -5
Let's think about a 4 year old. Why would CSA for them be harder to report? Or easier? Uncle Bob exposes himself to the 4 year old. Do you know a 4 year old that would care? Be shocked? Be afraid to report it because it was CSA? And then Uncle Bob grabs the 4 year old by the shoulders and hurts the child saying "You had better not tell anyone!" And when Mom undresses the child and asks about the bruises on the shoulders will one form of abuse be any more difficult for the child? This is so ridiculous it hardly deserves a reply. For the rest of my life I'll have to live with the consequences of a sexually abused four-year-old, who would much rather have had cuts, bruises and broken bones. At least cuts, bruises and broken bones can be seen and can heal and the victim can move on. With CSA, something dies within the child. Sorry fixit, but you are needing to broaden your horizons. There are many people out there who have been irreparably damaged by emotional and physical abuse during their upbringing. Spiritual abuse has a huge amount to answer for as well. I know of many times more cases of the foregoing than I do of CSA.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 4:29:13 GMT -5
Being a victim of CPA, I wanted to add a couple of things to this thread.....In the F&W group, there is SO much secrecy. This secrecy and the implication that that secrecy MUST be maintained in all aspects is SO rampant. This secrecy crosses ALL aspects of the 2x2's, it crosses what the workers are doing, or not. It insists on secrecy in followers families. It mandates that 2x2' are NOT to associate with the outside world, so that the very existence of them, must be secret. Secrecy is also mandatory related to the financial aspect of this group. THIS insistence on secrecy extends back to the beginning. Irvine did not want the publicity that he did get, he wanted to pursue his twisted logic in PRIVATE. AND he did not want intervention of any kind. As I stated in an earlier post,,,, the very early Christian, and Jew, were TAUGHT by their leaders, their teachers, and their preachers that the devil existed in everything, and that beating any "thing" was the way to get rid of the devil.. This philosophy crossed over in every aspect of their worlds. Secrecy BEGAN then... And that secrecy was just the way they did things. My parents DID NOT WANT ANYONE to know that I was being abused. They did not want ANY interaction with law enforcement, or with school authorities, or with any entity that just MIGHT catch them doing this.... BUT kindly remember that in the 40's,50's 60's and probably most of the 70's any type of abuse was left unreported. Law enforcement at that time, pretty much figured that anything that went on inside a family, was the families business. Education about the psyche of a child,was a thing unknown in those uninformed, uneducated years. EVEN folks that were educated, did NOT have that much information about what ABUSE might or might NOT do to the fragile life of a child...AND as has already been stated, a cycle of abuse usually existed, from one generation to the next. ANY report of any kind about abuse, to a worker, an elder, a relative, would have been ignored, the thinking would have been to let the family take care of its own business. THAT is pretty much what my own multiple aunts and uncles thought about any type of physical abuse. They might NOT have liked it, but would not risk the anger from my Dad directed to them... Love and care for any child would have been looked down upon as a parental weakness. IN other words, " LET that set of parents do what ever they want to do, to KEEP THAT CHILD IN LINE" and the other piece to that is, "IF that set of parents CAN NOT CONTROL their own kid, then they will eventually reap their rewards" The mind set of "Spare the rod, spoil the child" and mandatory secrecy,as well as the use of physical force were the standards for that day.. It is only with in these last 15-20 years that education and information about the massive amounts of damage done to children has been in the global consciousness. The 2x2's are yet EVEN FURTHER behind in education and information.. MAINLY because the force of the workers continue to demand secrecy. The only way that any of this will change, will be the improvement of education, information, and individual introspection. Abuse of most kinds is still being covered up on some level on the outside, and of course we all know about the lack of transparency on the inside of the 2x2's. Personally I FLAT OUT REFUSED to perpetrate any type of abuse on my only daughter, and until many others can see the need to change their own behaviors, there will continue to be abuse. ALL MY LOVE theolegranni Many thanks again "theolegranni" and "Snow." I am finding your input of high value and hope it can prompt others to share their experiences.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 7:37:22 GMT -5
You say "there is a problem with physical abuse in the church". Perhaps you could define that "problem" for us as clearly as possible and then propose the actions you suggest to deal with that problem. Also, why is it a "church" problem and what needs to change about the church to eliminate the problem?
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2013 10:39:34 GMT -5
Let's think about a 4 year old. Why would CSA for them be harder to report? Or easier? Uncle Bob exposes himself to the 4 year old. Do you know a 4 year old that would care? Be shocked? Be afraid to report it because it was CSA? And then Uncle Bob grabs the 4 year old by the shoulders and hurts the child saying "You had better not tell anyone!" And when Mom undresses the child and asks about the bruises on the shoulders will one form of abuse be any more difficult for the child? This is so ridiculous it hardly deserves a reply. For the rest of my life I'll have to live with the consequences of a sexually abused four-year-old, who would much rather have had cuts, bruises and broken bones. At least cuts, bruises and broken bones can be seen and can heal and the victim can move on. With CSA, something dies within the child. While I agree that cuts, bruises can be seen (if they aren't hidden under clothes) and broken bones to can heal, the survivor doesn't always get to move on. You see along with these beatings comes psychological and emotional abuse too. It's not just the case of someone hitting you and walking away. It is usually accompanied by a lot of very emotionally damaging words at the same time. My father didn't just silently hit me. He was telling me the whole time why I was getting hit and it was usually along the lines of me being very bad. So do that often enough the child grows up thinking they are bad and have less worth. Since I have been the survivor of both types (rape at 17), I have some idea how both feels. They both have had long lasting effects on me. I still think I'm not worth as much as others in instances where there is a difference of opinion. I have to remind myself that I am worthy, I do know something, and I have a right to voice MY opinion. That is still one of the hardest things in the world for me to do. Confrontation is something I cringe from. I work hard on not being hurt by harsh words. I recognize I am more sensitive to them and thinner skinned than others because of my early upbringing. It's a work in progress to be fully knowing that I have as much worth as someone else. I'm not saying you shouldn't focus predominately with CSA fixit. That is what WINGS is about and you can only take on so much. I just wanted to voice the repercussions long term for those who have been physically abused. It's not just the healing of the bruises, it's the healing of the words that went with the bruises.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 11:01:17 GMT -5
This is so ridiculous it hardly deserves a reply. For the rest of my life I'll have to live with the consequences of a sexually abused four-year-old, who would much rather have had cuts, bruises and broken bones. At least cuts, bruises and broken bones can be seen and can heal and the victim can move on. With CSA, something dies within the child. While I agree that cuts, bruises can be seen (if they aren't hidden under clothes) and broken bones to can heal, the survivor doesn't always get to move on. You see along with these beatings comes psychological and emotional abuse too. It's not just the case of someone hitting you and walking away. It is usually accompanied by a lot of very emotionally damaging words at the same time. My father didn't just silently hit me. He was telling me the whole time why I was getting hit and it was usually along the lines of me being very bad. So do that often enough the child grows up thinking they are bad and have less worth. Since I have been the survivor of both types (rape at 17), I have some idea how both feels. They both have had long lasting effects on me. I still think I'm not worth as much as others in instances where there is a difference of opinion. I have to remind myself that I am worthy, I do know something, and I have a right to voice MY opinion. That is still one of the hardest things in the world for me to do. Confrontation is something I cringe from. I work hard on not being hurt by harsh words. I recognize I am more sensitive to them and thinner skinned than others because of my early upbringing. It's a work in progress to be fully knowing that I have as much worth as someone else. I'm not saying you shouldn't focus predominately with CSA fixit. That is what WINGS is about and you can only take on so much. I just wanted to voice the repercussions long term for those who have been physically abused. It's not just the healing of the bruises, it's the healing of the words that went with the bruises. What you say is why I am against all physical punishment, no matter how small. I wasn't severely beaten by my parents. I doubt I was bruised (but I never did check my backside in the mirror!) but what I did get I feel had a negative effect on me every time. There was no good in any of it as it began to give me a message of being "bad" and a desire to live down to that message. I can only imagine what it would have become had it continued past age six for me. I admire people like yourself who have largely conquered these long lasting ill effects. The problem goes for non-physical emotional abuse as well such as threats, name-calling, put-downs. It is all ugly, and may I say....evil. As a parent, one thing I always tried to preface my child disciplining with was "you are a good boy/girl...." and then go on to explain how their behaviour is hurting someone else or is dangerous to themselves in some way. It would always take patience and persistence, some times over and over.....but eventually they always "got it" and bought into it. Eventually that becomes part of their character to view the effects of their behaviour and make good choices from there. Emotional or physical disciplinary abuse is never, ever, necessary or desirable.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2013 11:11:06 GMT -5
You say "there is a problem with physical abuse in the church". Perhaps you could define that "problem" for us as clearly as possible and then propose the actions you suggest to deal with that problem. Also, why is it a "church" problem and what needs to change about the church to eliminate the problem? The problem is that children are being hurt. The way to deal with it is to have people stop hurting children. Abuse of any type is not a church problem. When the church covers up the abuse and hides the abuser it becomes a church problem. Child abuse is a criminal problem.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 11:22:46 GMT -5
You say "there is a problem with physical abuse in the church". Perhaps you could define that "problem" for us as clearly as possible and then propose the actions you suggest to deal with that problem. Also, why is it a "church" problem and what needs to change about the church to eliminate the problem? The problem is that children are being hurt. What children are being hurt right now? How many are there and what are the names of their abusers? Let's act on this right now. I believe every one of them should be reported to the authorities so if you agree, let's get started on that right now. I like that. Let's stop them right now as you claim this is going on right now. How do we do that? What cover ups are going on in the 2x2 church right now for physical abuse? Let's fix this church problem right now. Tell us about how to do this. It is criminal act.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 11:52:42 GMT -5
The problem is that children are being hurt. What children are being hurt right now? How many are there and what are the names of their abusers? Let's act on this right now. I believe every one of them should be reported to the authorities so if you agree, let's get started on that right now. In all cases of real abuse, physical or otherwise, I generally agree, but let us not seek to criminalise those who are operating within proper constraints. Many parents, especially single parents at the lower end of the social spectrum need "support," NOT condemnation or punishment. There are MANY of them out there. Deal with the matter in a wrong manner and you will reap many more problems than you will solve. The right way is happening right now. It is socially unacceptable, or at least not desired. That approach is working very well. If you criminalise "normal" parents who occasionally use child physical chastisement within proper constraints you will simply drive the problems even more underground. Most parents fail (as you have said) and occasionally physically chastise their kids. However, most parents hate doing it and many of those feel it has been a last resort.
Personally I do not believe there are ANY children who have suffered from occasional child physical chastisement exercised as a last resort and within legal constraints. Viewing these matters MUST be done in a measured and balanced way. Child Physical Chastisement should always be a last resort measure, when all else fails or when the parent deems the circumstances demands, It should never be a first resort and should never be systematic. Real Child Abuse begins when chastisement becomes the first option and becomes habitual and excessive. It is then the cycle of abuse begins and it becomes "normality" for the child.
The best way forward is to educate the church fellowship and instigate preventative measures. This would really only be additional information on other types of abuse and points of vigilance to the already compiled CSA guidelines. I will repeat that I do not like child physical chastisement, but I am far from convinced that every case of a problem child can be resolved without physical chastisement within legal grounds.
I like that. Let's stop them right now as you claim this is going on right now. How do we do that? Let's up the socially unacceptable approach. Educate the F&W's accordingly, on every form of abuse. Each will provide knock-on beneficial effects for the other.
What cover ups are going on in the 2x2 church right now for physical abuse? Let's fix this church problem right now. Tell us about how to do this. You have made a start with WINGS and the CSA guidelines. Just a little expansion to cover all forms of abuse is all that is required. Of course I already know the big bogey is having a reluctant ministry and fellowship to contend with.It is criminal act.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 12:33:50 GMT -5
What children are being hurt right now? How many are there and what are the names of their abusers? Let's act on this right now. I believe every one of them should be reported to the authorities so if you agree, let's get started on that right now. In all cases of real abuse, physical or otherwise, I generally agree, but let us not seek to criminalise those who are operating within proper constraints. Many parents, especially single parents at the lower end of the social spectrum need "support," NOT condemnation or punishment. There are MANY of them out there. Deal with the matter in a wrong manner and you will reap many more problems than you will solve. The right way is happening right now. It is socially unacceptable, or at least not desired. That approach is working very well. If you criminalise "normal" parents who occasionally use child physical chastisement within proper constraints you will simply drive the problems even more underground. Most parents fail (as you have said) and occasionally physically chastise their kids. However, most parents hate doing it and many of those feel it has been a last resort.
Personally I do not believe there are ANY children who have suffered from occasional child physical chastisement exercised as a last resort and within legal constraints. Viewing these matters MUST be done in a measured and balanced way. Child Physical Chastisement should always be a last resort measure, when all else fails or when the parent deems the circumstances demands, It should never be a first resort and should never be systematic. Real Child Abuse begins when chastisement becomes the first option and becomes habitual and excessive. It is then the cycle of abuse begins and it becomes "normality" for the child.
The best way forward is to educate the church fellowship and instigate preventative measures. This would really only be additional information on other types of abuse and points of vigilance to the already compiled CSA guidelines. I will repeat that I do not like child physical chastisement, but I am far from convinced that every case of a problem child can be resolved without physical chastisement within legal grounds.
I like that. Let's stop them right now as you claim this is going on right now. How do we do that? Let's up the socially unacceptable approach. Educate the F&W's accordingly, on every form of abuse. Each will provide knock-on beneficial effects for the other.
What cover ups are going on in the 2x2 church right now for physical abuse? Let's fix this church problem right now. Tell us about how to do this. You have made a start with WINGS and the CSA guidelines. Just a little expansion to cover all forms of abuse is all that is required. Of course I already know the big bogey is having a reluctant ministry and fellowship to contend with.It is criminal act. Great to have some positive suggestions put forward ram. Generally speaking, awareness is one of the most effective means of prevention. As far as known criminals and children being abused right now. I don't know of any anywhere among the F&Ws at this time. If someone can identify any abusers, let's try to do something about it.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2013 12:50:49 GMT -5
The problem is that children are being hurt. What children are being hurt right now? How many are there and what are the names of their abusers? Let's act on this right now. I believe every one of them should be reported to the authorities so if you agree, let's get started on that right now. Nice diversion. Although there is testiminy that children do suffer physical abuse you wish to ignore it until there is a case serious enough that someone is charged with a crime. Sort of the way Jean was treated while she was being abused by IH. There were no arrests and no public accusations so it mush not have been happening. You're right. Let's just ignore it until something serious happens. As long as the children don't complain things should be good. A start would be acknowledging that physical abuse exists. And we have testimony that it does. A second step would be to have communication regarding only sexual abuse that is being sent to the workers, friends, elders, etc. be broadened to include all types of abuse. And ten years ago people would have said the same thing about sexual abuse. Yes. That is true as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 13:19:41 GMT -5
Great to have some positive suggestions put forward ram. Generally speaking, awareness is one of the most effective means of prevention. As far as known criminals and children being abused right now. I don't know of any anywhere among the F&Ws at this time. If someone can identify any abusers, let's try to do something about it. Thanks CD. Whilst I agree with your suggestion, I see this as a secondary or reactionary initiative. We now know there has been unacceptable behaviour in the sect in the past and likely at levels that would surprise us. This alone drives home the message of perceived risks and I think that the primary course of action is "crime prevention" in view of these risks and likelihood, not waiting until something of significance comes to light. Everyone else does it. Why can't the F&W's sect? I put a lot of weight on Scott's observations. Whilst he is primarily dealing with CSA, he and other members of WINGS do encounter other forms of abuse and try to advise accordingly, although it is not their remit. However, Scott has clearly stated that in his opinion the occurrence of child physical abuse (and other forms?)within the sect, will be about the same level as society in general. There is even a Church child protection organisation out there who have a model policy for downloading and would even draft out one specifically for the sect if asked. However, they are a charity and I think it would only be right that a reasonable donation should be given if such a course was embarked upon.
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2013 16:07:51 GMT -5
Ram, you seem to be saying that inflicting pain on a child is good but only up to a certain limit.
Inflicting pain is good parenting, but too much pain is child abuse?
You also say that child sexual abuse and child physical abuse should be dealt with together.
So the message is that inflicting pain on children is OK for disciplinary purposes, but if you hurt a child too much its as bad as sexually abusing a child?
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2013 16:30:22 GMT -5
CPA in the fellowship was mostly inflicted by parents.
CSA in the fellowship was mostly inflicted by people other than parents.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2013 17:44:12 GMT -5
CPA in the fellowship was mostly inflicted by parents. CSA in the fellowship was mostly inflicted by people other than parents. The cases of convicted CSA are mostly inflicted by people other than parents. The testimonies of F&W members tell a different story. Children are being abused. Why are you so reluctant to help them? Why do they need to be sexually abused before you take notice? Who cares who is abusing children?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 17:48:10 GMT -5
Ram, you seem to be saying that inflicting pain on a child is good but only up to a certain limit. Fixit, study what the law says about this. It must not be harmful to the child. It is for discipline and correction only. Carried out correctly it will hurt the parent more than the child.Inflicting pain is good parenting, but too much pain is child abuse? The object is not to inflict pain, but to discipline and correct. Excessive force is indeed child physical abuse.
You also say that child sexual abuse and child physical abuse should be dealt with together. That is not what I am saying, but often they are. After all, in most cases CSA is only CPA with a sexual element. However, if a child has been subject to both and/or other forms of abuse and the matter is reported to the authorities, then they will certainly be dealt with together. Where two or more forms of abuse occur in the same case (which often occurs), they cannot be dealt with separately. I will go further. If CSA occurs in a family and is part of an overall domestic abuse situation, they are usually dealt with together.
Consider this. Although there may be some differences in the characteristics of the offences; in reality they are both forms of assault upon children.
So the message is that inflicting pain on children is OK for disciplinary purposes, but if you hurt a child too much its as bad as sexually abusing a child? No, the message is NOT about inflicting pain. It is about instilling discipline and correction. It should be a last resort measure, never systematic and only measured and proportionate, without marking or bruising a child. If you want to compare CSA with CPA or indeed any other abuse, it can only be done on a case by case basis, not category by category. How can you compare fondling a child's private parts with smashing his or her skull, or stubbing out cigarettes all over their body. It is unwise to try and make specific comparisons.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 17:50:30 GMT -5
CPA in the fellowship was mostly inflicted by parents. CSA in the fellowship was mostly inflicted by people other than parents. Are the victims different? Even if your remarks were correct, does this itself not suggest a broadening out of approach towards safeguarding children in the church?
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Post by Lee on Aug 9, 2013 18:07:46 GMT -5
Intelligent spankings are neither violence, threats, or put-downs but interruptions to self-destructive behavior. "Intelligent spankings" is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist. All spankings are stupid.
Now just to be clear, I am not saying that spankers are stupid people. They are often very smart people doing a stupid thing.I don't agree. Not true. Not every parent is so lucky to have a child that is never in need of a threat (what is the difference between a threat and warning to a consequence) or a put-down (what parent is so blessed they would never have a child in need of an attitude-adjustment.) No child needs to be threatened or put down, it is a form of violence and it's a great way to screw up their heads to an "attitude adjustment" that is worse than what he started with.Like William Irvine, you must believe that children are born pure and innocent, only to be tarnished by an evil world. I believe children are born blank slates upon which evil and good will have their day as well as repentance. After that there may be moral fortitude, rectitude and reflection, ect. Two swats to the butt isn't violence. The exercise of physical force intended to inflict pain is violence. It is "a violent act." It is not necessarily a negative, demonic one. Many fathers have had to discourage the physical intimitation of their grown sons .... physically. Will you categorically condemn them? We are discussing CPA here, Child Physical Abuse.
Now if a father has to deal with the physical intimidation of his grown sons, it tells me that the father is getting back what he put into those boys, and that's a whupping I could understand! What goes around, comes around.......
You interpretation is too simple. It is the nature of our world to goad sons against fathers.
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Post by Lee on Aug 9, 2013 18:16:13 GMT -5
Why would anyone want to hurt a child as a method of teaching? If it is OK to hurt a child with a smack on the butt is OK to hurt the child in other ways? Soap in the mouth? Perhaps a little prick with a needle. Twisting the child's arm? Pinching? How about putting the child in a closet? By your logic no one could ever be incarcerated for criminal behavior because arguably, it might become acceptable then to sentence them to hell. Of course, I guess if you believe the child is possessed by a demon - carte blanche for an exorcism to get that demon out! Are you saying a child/adult isn't capable of evil? Are you saying the human race is free of demonic and evil intention?
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