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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2013 10:20:33 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to what the law states. I am referring to how nutty the law is. Just because it is legal to hit a child doesn't mean it is right. You have stated your opinion. Yes the law can be nutty. Is there any guarantee that the changes you wish will make it less nuttier? As we have seen, often the problem is people not understanding what the law prescribes, not what the law itself states. Regarding physical chastisement. There is a plethora of opinion and experience which could be presented to counter your opinions. Keep in mind too that life isn't all black and white. It is most often many shades of grey. What may be right in one set of circumstances may be wrong in others.And let's not kid each other: all parents who smack their kids do it for correction.....or so they say. That's right. Many cases of real child physical abuse are examples of this. That's why parents must understand that child physical chastisement must be proportionate, not systematic and only used when necessary for the disciplining of a child or for its safety and must be contained within what the law allows, not crossing the line into child physical abuse.The point is simple: there is no moral justification for hitting children for any disciplinary reason. It cannot be justified. This is your opinion. I am also conscious that until the very recent past you thought that the law permitted parents to hit their children for "any reason!" With this kind of understanding I can well appreciate your opinions. Nevertheless, whilst I do not like the idea of physical chastisement of children, I do not share your views. The mere fact that provided the chastisement is for the purposes of discipline and/or safety and is contained within the limits that the law dictates, suggests a very strong moral argument to me!
The law will catch up to this and in our country it is almost there. The bill passed by all houses prohibiting it but died when a election was called will come back.....and when it does it won't be too soon, much to the chagrin of the swatters. Sounds like there is a lot of potential here for even more "nutty" legislation!
I could be wrong, but I thought you have been spending much of the last week repeatedly trying to convince us about how important it is to focus on ALL abuse. Now when you examine a particular abuse, you only want to talk about physical abuse. You really need to ask yourself why it is abusive to smack a 2 year old in a "non-injurious" way when you are a non-parent, but it is legally not abusive for a parent to do. Deep down you know the reason: it is abuse either way. This is the sort of argument that gets presented time and again when those who want to change laws or call them "nutty" don't actually understand the laws! Firstly, parental chastisement of children in most countries is not legally considered to be child physical abuse. This is not what I was debating recently. It was what is defined as child physical abuse versus child sexual abuse. I even provided you links explaining it all and you even thanked me for them!
There is a clear legal AND moral distinction between child physical abuse and the correction of a child by its parents within the constraints of the law. Deep down you are talking nonsense. If it is necessary for the safety of a child or for the disciplining of a child to be corrected and the only way is to use physical chastisement within the limits of the law, then there is a moral argument there. If you are of the opinion that all children in every family can be disciplined by means other than physical chastisement on every occasion, you are greatly in need of some front-line experience.
Don't get me wrong. I do not like the idea of child physical chastisement, but I have seen enough to grant me some common sense for a good overview. Just because many people greatly exceed speed limits, it does not mean that the careful drivers should likewise be banned from driving.
Yes it is important to focus on all types of abuse. It also follows that it is a good idea to include just what the law allows with regards to child physical chastisement so that parents will know the boundaries and not encroach into what is defined as child physical abuse.
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Post by openingact34 on Aug 2, 2013 20:30:03 GMT -5
The 2x2s have a distinct element in their belief system that has manifested itself in various forms of abuse (I can't say it's all been physical abuse of any type). This element is that the 2x2 man is supposed to keep his family "under control." This means, that the professing father is supposed to have his wife and children behaving how the workers believe a family should behave - respectful (reverent?) to the workers, quiet, orderly, sitting still. Anything that will make the family behave this way is worker-approved. Of course, this "control" thing didn't originate with the 2x2s - WI didn't have too much originality in him. WI got this from working in the mines. He used it to control the original workers, and the friends used in as well when they began to emulate the workers. Great stuff for mines when you're working in dark, potentially dangerous areas. Not so great for people in social settings. This "under control" aspect also shows itself in the need to "fit in" with the meetings and justifies keeping abuse under wraps - CSA, any physical abuse, spiritual killings. I'd definitely agree with that. I would consider my upbringing strict, but not physically abusive. It was pretty well within the normal range in the 80's. However, every time my parents went a little overboard with the corporal punishment, it was because my brother or I were misbehaving in meeting. I'm sure it was especially embarrassing for my father who was an ex-worker, elder, with a meeting in his home. I'm sure they were influenced by sermons like this. See the last account (a little garbled but the point gets through) www.trutharchive.net/eldon-tenniswood---a-family-counseling-meeting-at-santee---june-28-1977I can only imagine how many little children had gotten a serious dose of spanking by the end of that convention....
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 2, 2013 22:01:43 GMT -5
Who are "smetchberts?" some new phrase you invented or just a misspelled word?
Well, anyway, you still haven't read the article by the American Academy of Pediatrics have you?So,it is you who is the more expert than the American Academy of Pediatrics on what constitutes "harsh physical treatment?"
What medical school did you get your medical degree in Pediatrics? The prevalence of medical-malpractice lawsuits suggests the erudite do error. Is this supposed to be my answer as to what "smetchberts are suppose to mean?
I'm not quite sure what you mean.
If by "erudite" do you mean those that are "educated, knowledgeable, learned, lettered, literate, scholarly, well-read?"
Are you referring to the American Academy of Pediatrics?
Do you mean that "medical-malpractice lawsuits" come about because of a policy accredited by a medical organization?
When your child is ill, would you not, therefore, take your child to a pediatrician because of the said recommendations by the American Academy of Pediatrics?
I'm only a Reg. Nurse, but it is my understanding that medical-malpractice lawsuits result from the neglect or error by a physician, but not by the recommendations of a medical organization.
Am I misunderstanding your post?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 2, 2013 22:11:15 GMT -5
The 2x2s have a distinct element in their belief system that has manifested itself in various forms of abuse (I can't say it's all been physical abuse of any type). This element is that the 2x2 man is supposed to keep his family "under control." This means, that the professing father is supposed to have his wife and children behaving how the workers believe a family should behave - respectful (reverent?) to the workers, quiet, orderly, sitting still. Anything that will make the family behave this way is worker-approved. Of course, this "control" thing didn't originate with the 2x2s - WI didn't have too much originality in him. WI got this from working in the mines. He used it to control the original workers, and the friends used in as well when they began to emulate the workers. Great stuff for mines when you're working in dark, potentially dangerous areas. Not so great for people in social settings. This "under control" aspect also shows itself in the need to "fit in" with the meetings and justifies keeping abuse under wraps - CSA, any physical abuse, spiritual killings. I'd definitely agree with that. I would consider my upbringing strict, but not physically abusive. It was pretty well within the normal range in the 80's. However, every time my parents went a little overboard with the corporal punishment, it was because my brother or I were misbehaving in meeting. I'm sure it was especially embarrassing for my father who was an ex-worker, elder, with a meeting in his home. I'm sure they were influenced by sermons like this. See the last account (a little garbled but the point gets through) www.trutharchive.net/eldon-tenniswood---a-family-counseling-meeting-at-santee---june-28-1977I can only imagine how many little children had gotten a serious dose of spanking by the end of that convention.... FWIW, some parents know how to hold a child quietly in meeting and some don't. I have taken a number of fussing kids from their parents in meetings and they never made a sound after I took them.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 2, 2013 22:23:14 GMT -5
Of course. That's why it's acceptable to give your wife four sharp swats when she doesn't pay attention. Most people don't marry their children. Isn't that a rather facetious statement to make?
But the suppose any inane argument is better than none when one doesn't have a valid answer!
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Post by Lee on Aug 3, 2013 8:31:55 GMT -5
The prevalence of medical-malpractice lawsuits suggests the erudite do error. Is this supposed to be my answer as to what "smetchberts are suppose to mean?"Smetchberts" was my play on "experts" to convey the thought that some experts are more driven by ego than expertise. If by "erudite" do you mean those that are " educated, knowledgeable, learned, lettered, literate, scholarly, well-read?"Yes Are you referring to the American Academy of Pediatrics?Could be. Do you mean that "medical-malpractice lawsuits" come about because of a policy accredited by a medical organization? Its possible. When your child is ill, would you not, therefore, take your child to a pediatrician because of the said recommendations by the American Academy of Pediatrics? Its one reason I would take my child to a pediatrician. I'm only a Reg. Nurse, but it is my understanding that medical-malpractice lawsuits result from the neglect or error by a physician, but not by the recommendations of a medical organization .That's a simplistic interpretation. My point was that medical organizations and individuals are capable of philosophical and professional error.
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Post by Lee on Aug 3, 2013 8:34:06 GMT -5
Most people don't marry their children. Isn't that a rather facetious statement to make?
But the suppose any inane argument is better than none when one doesn't have a valid answer!
Bob misreprented me and I returned the favor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2013 8:36:43 GMT -5
I'd definitely agree with that. I would consider my upbringing strict, but not physically abusive. It was pretty well within the normal range in the 80's. However, every time my parents went a little overboard with the corporal punishment, it was because my brother or I were misbehaving in meeting. I'm sure it was especially embarrassing for my father who was an ex-worker, elder, with a meeting in his home. I'm sure they were influenced by sermons like this. See the last account (a little garbled but the point gets through) www.trutharchive.net/eldon-tenniswood---a-family-counseling-meeting-at-santee---june-28-1977I can only imagine how many little children had gotten a serious dose of spanking by the end of that convention.... FWIW, some parents know how to hold a child quietly in meeting and some don't. I have taken a number of fussing kids from their parents in meetings and they never made a sound after I took them. So fear DOES work!
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Post by snow on Aug 3, 2013 11:16:53 GMT -5
I'd definitely agree with that. I would consider my upbringing strict, but not physically abusive. It was pretty well within the normal range in the 80's. However, every time my parents went a little overboard with the corporal punishment, it was because my brother or I were misbehaving in meeting. I'm sure it was especially embarrassing for my father who was an ex-worker, elder, with a meeting in his home. I'm sure they were influenced by sermons like this. See the last account (a little garbled but the point gets through) www.trutharchive.net/eldon-tenniswood---a-family-counseling-meeting-at-santee---june-28-1977I can only imagine how many little children had gotten a serious dose of spanking by the end of that convention.... FWIW, some parents know how to hold a child quietly in meeting and some don't. I have taken a number of fussing kids from their parents in meetings and they never made a sound after I took them. LOL Bob, not touching that one... Seriously though, I think it just may be the child reacting to a non stressed adult. Parents that are dealing with the child are getting more and more stressed and the child senses this and reacts. I have a reputation of taking a colicky baby from a frazzled parent and having them fall asleep in my arms almost immediately. I always say it's my boring personality, I bore them to sleep. But likely it's just because I am not stressed out and that somehow gets translated to the child and they settle.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 3, 2013 14:23:47 GMT -5
FWIW, some parents know how to hold a child quietly in meeting and some don't. I have taken a number of fussing kids from their parents in meetings and they never made a sound after I took them. So fear DOES work! I just make sure they don't see my face!!!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 3, 2013 14:26:41 GMT -5
Isn't that a rather facetious statement to make?
But the suppose any inane argument is better than none when one doesn't have a valid answer!
Bob misreprented me and I returned the favor. You can only catch so much when you're on a fast merry-go-round!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 3, 2013 14:31:33 GMT -5
FWIW, some parents know how to hold a child quietly in meeting and some don't. I have taken a number of fussing kids from their parents in meetings and they never made a sound after I took them. LOL Bob, not touching that one... Seriously though, I think it just may be the child reacting to a non stressed adult. Parents that are dealing with the child are getting more and more stressed and the child senses this and reacts. I have a reputation of taking a colicky baby from a frazzled parent and having them fall asleep in my arms almost immediately. I always say it's my boring personality, I bore them to sleep. But likely it's just because I am not stressed out and that somehow gets translated to the child and they settle. You know exactly how it works. If you can sit still enough yourself they'll forget you're even alive and either sleep or "examine the statue".
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theolegranni
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THANK YOU for allowing me to resume my old name... It is DEAR to me... Thanks again. theolegranni
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 6, 2013 22:04:50 GMT -5
Hi to all: I am a bit afraid to even post here, but as I understand Ram, he wants some information related to physical abuse with in the 2x2 system. My Dad, (when he was sober) was an Excellent Dad, he taught me to read, WAY before my time, he gave me a love of literature, he gave me a love of nature, he instilled into me a work ethic, he insisted that I love the people of the "truth". Yet my Dad had his demons, he loved his beer, and was frequently drunk. We lived on a farm, that required very long and hard hours. AND it seems that my Dad, had a limit for stress.. When he was stressed he would drink. He was an elder in a Sunday AM meeting as well. It seems to me that with all of the CSA issues, there is a human frailty when it comes to weaknesses. AND for some unknown reason, when my Dad was drunk, he took it out on me. My brother now tells me that I "pushed Dad's buttons"........ Which at the time, I would not have been able to understand at all.. My dear Dad, beat the crap out of me on a routine basis. maybe because I had it coming, by lying to him,but most times it was because I just instinctively knew how to make him mad. One time at about the age of 13-14 I watched as my Dad beat a milk cow, while the cow was NOT able to get away.. The cow was cornered in stanchion. He beat this poor cow with a large 2x4, until the cow fell down in the stanchion. I was watching from the kitchen window, and desperately wished that it was me that he was beating, I AT LEAST had a way to get away from him..I can see the picture excruciatingly CLEAR in my mind as I write this. NOW when I say beat, I mean beat..... NOT a spanking, but a down right, fist, slap, fist, kick in the ribs, kick in the head, beat on the head, BEATING..... A beating that followed me around the kitchen, a beating that made me pee my pants every time.... (how about that for humiliation? ) My mother NEVER ONE TIME stepped in to protect me, she usually figured out some way to avoid the scene. One day, when he was mad at me about something, I don't even remember now why he was pissed, but he yelled at me, went into his bedroom, retrieved his rifle, and emptied the magazine, aimed at me..... Fortunately for me, i was NOT looking at him, when this happened, the ammunition went thru the window at the back of my head. Had I been facing him, I would not be here relating this experience. The secretiveness of the sect, as well as little or no available resources for a kid, in those unenlightened years, all added together to create some serious physical abuse. I never told a single soul about his abuse, my aunts and uncles on both sides of the family were fully aware of the beatings, and they also DID NOTHING..... I asked an uncle one time, just why it was that he did not intervene, and he said this..... "Your Dad didn't hurt you that bad" ALL RIGHTY THEN! That is exactly what my Dad said when I was almost 40 year old and confronted him with his behaviors... I suffered mostly in silence, and had several addictions that I have had to overcome. I was a workaholic, and only ended up damaging myself. I was a nurse for 40 years and knew how to take care of everyone and everything else, EXCEPT myself. I now know how to take care of me first, before anyone else. I thank the Creator everyday for the things I do have. I am in a safe and loving environment, I have cut all of the past loose, and feel very happy with myself now, especially since I am also out of the cult. Just wanted to respond to the thread. All my love. flatlander AKA theolegranni
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2013 22:47:55 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing FL. That's an awful way to grow up and have to live with the effects for a long time. Great that you have gotten past it!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 7, 2013 2:14:26 GMT -5
Is this supposed to be my answer as to what "smetchberts are suppose to mean? "Smetchberts" was my play on "experts" to convey the thought that some experts are more driven by ego than expertise. If by "erudite" do you mean those that are " educated, knowledgeable, learned, lettered, literate, scholarly, well-read?"Yes Are you referring to the American Academy of Pediatrics?Could be. Do you mean that "medical-malpractice lawsuits" come about because of a policy accredited by a medical organization? Its possible. When your child is ill, would you not, therefore, take your child to a pediatrician because of the said recommendations by the American Academy of Pediatrics? Its one reason I would take my child to a pediatrician. I'm only a Reg. Nurse, but it is my understanding that medical-malpractice lawsuits result from the neglect or error by a physician, but not by the recommendations of a medical organization . That's a simplistic interpretation. My point was that medical organizations and individuals are capable of philosophical and professional error. Just caught your supposed "erudite" answer. Missed it earlier,
So do you believe the policy of American Academy of Pediatrics on spanking is guilty of philosophical or professional error since they don't agree with your ideas of "spanking" of a child?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 7, 2013 2:30:18 GMT -5
Isn't that a rather facetious statement to make?
But the suppose any inane argument is better than none when one doesn't have a valid answer!
Bob misreprented me and I returned the favor. I hardly think so, with your "erudite" understanding, you should have been able to understand that "violence" against anyone, means the same.
Spouses, men or women, who abuse their spouses with a couple of swats, which you think is perfectly acceptable to use on a child, would use your same argument as being acceptable to hit their spouse!
Wasn't misunderstand at all!
Violence, even just a couple of swats, on any person is violence!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 7, 2013 2:35:54 GMT -5
Hi to all: I am a bit afraid to even post here, but as I understand Ram, he wants some information related to physical abuse with in the 2x2 system. My Dad, (when he was sober) was an Excellent Dad, he taught me to read, WAY before my time, he gave me a love of literature, he gave me a love of nature, he instilled into me a work ethic, he insisted that I love the people of the "truth". Yet my Dad had his demons, he loved his beer, and was frequently drunk. We lived on a farm, that required very long and hard hours. AND it seems that my Dad, had a limit for stress.. When he was stressed he would drink. He was an elder in a Sunday AM meeting as well. It seems to me that with all of the CSA issues, there is a human frailty when it comes to weaknesses. AND for some unknown reason, when my Dad was drunk, he took it out on me. My brother now tells me that I "pushed Dad's buttons"........ Which at the time, I would not have been able to understand at all.. My dear Dad, beat the crap out of me on a routine basis. maybe because I had it coming, by lying to him,but most times it was because I just instinctively knew how to make him mad. One time at about the age of 13-14 I watched as my Dad beat a milk cow, while the cow was NOT able to get away.. The cow was cornered in stanchion. He beat this poor cow with a large 2x4, until the cow fell down in the stanchion. I was watching from the kitchen window, and desperately wished that it was me that he was beating, I AT LEAST had a way to get away from him..I can see the picture excruciatingly CLEAR in my mind as I write this. NOW when I say beat, I mean beat..... NOT a spanking, but a down right, fist, slap, fist, kick in the ribs, kick in the head, beat on the head, BEATING..... A beating that followed me around the kitchen, a beating that made me pee my pants every time.... (how about that for humiliation? ) My mother NEVER ONE TIME stepped in to protect me, she usually figured out some way to avoid the scene. One day, when he was mad at me about something, I don't even remember now why he was pissed, but he yelled at me, went into his bedroom, retrieved his rifle, and emptied the magazine, aimed at me..... Fortunately for me, i was NOT looking at him, when this happened, the ammunition went thru the window at the back of my head. Had I been facing him, I would not be here relating this experience. The secretiveness of the sect, as well as little or no available resources for a kid, in those unenlightened years, all added together to create some serious physical abuse. I never told a single soul about his abuse, my aunts and uncles on both sides of the family were fully aware of the beatings, and they also DID NOTHING..... I asked an uncle one time, just why it was that he did not intervene, and he said this..... "Your Dad didn't hurt you that bad" ALL RIGHTY THEN! That is exactly what my Dad said when I was almost 40 year old and confronted him with his behaviors... I suffered mostly in silence, and had several addictions that I have had to overcome. I was a workaholic, and only ended up damaging myself. I was a nurse for 40 years and knew how to take care of everyone and everything else, EXCEPT myself. I now know how to take care of me first, before anyone else. I thank the Creator everyday for the things I do have. I am in a safe and loving environment, I have cut all of the past loose, and feel very happy with myself now, especially since I am also out of the cult. Just wanted to respond to the thread. All my love. flatlander AKA theolegranni I'm so sorry to hear how badly you were treated as a child, theolegranni.
I remember you posting somewhere before- maybe on TLC.
I'm also a nurse.
I'm glad you have been able to find a safe haven.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 2:50:38 GMT -5
Hi to all: I am a bit afraid to even post here, but as I understand Ram, he wants some information related to physical abuse with in the 2x2 system. My Dad, (when he was sober) was an Excellent Dad, he taught me to read, WAY before my time, he gave me a love of literature, he gave me a love of nature, he instilled into me a work ethic, he insisted that I love the people of the "truth". Yet my Dad had his demons, he loved his beer, and was frequently drunk. We lived on a farm, that required very long and hard hours. AND it seems that my Dad, had a limit for stress.. When he was stressed he would drink. He was an elder in a Sunday AM meeting as well. It seems to me that with all of the CSA issues, there is a human frailty when it comes to weaknesses. AND for some unknown reason, when my Dad was drunk, he took it out on me. My brother now tells me that I "pushed Dad's buttons"........ Which at the time, I would not have been able to understand at all.. My dear Dad, beat the crap out of me on a routine basis. maybe because I had it coming, by lying to him,but most times it was because I just instinctively knew how to make him mad. One time at about the age of 13-14 I watched as my Dad beat a milk cow, while the cow was NOT able to get away.. The cow was cornered in stanchion. He beat this poor cow with a large 2x4, until the cow fell down in the stanchion. I was watching from the kitchen window, and desperately wished that it was me that he was beating, I AT LEAST had a way to get away from him..I can see the picture excruciatingly CLEAR in my mind as I write this. NOW when I say beat, I mean beat..... NOT a spanking, but a down right, fist, slap, fist, kick in the ribs, kick in the head, beat on the head, BEATING..... A beating that followed me around the kitchen, a beating that made me pee my pants every time.... (how about that for humiliation? ) My mother NEVER ONE TIME stepped in to protect me, she usually figured out some way to avoid the scene. One day, when he was mad at me about something, I don't even remember now why he was pissed, but he yelled at me, went into his bedroom, retrieved his rifle, and emptied the magazine, aimed at me..... Fortunately for me, i was NOT looking at him, when this happened, the ammunition went thru the window at the back of my head. Had I been facing him, I would not be here relating this experience. The secretiveness of the sect, as well as little or no available resources for a kid, in those unenlightened years, all added together to create some serious physical abuse. I never told a single soul about his abuse, my aunts and uncles on both sides of the family were fully aware of the beatings, and they also DID NOTHING..... I asked an uncle one time, just why it was that he did not intervene, and he said this..... "Your Dad didn't hurt you that bad" ALL RIGHTY THEN! That is exactly what my Dad said when I was almost 40 year old and confronted him with his behaviors... I suffered mostly in silence, and had several addictions that I have had to overcome. I was a workaholic, and only ended up damaging myself. I was a nurse for 40 years and knew how to take care of everyone and everything else, EXCEPT myself. I now know how to take care of me first, before anyone else. I thank the Creator everyday for the things I do have. I am in a safe and loving environment, I have cut all of the past loose, and feel very happy with myself now, especially since I am also out of the cult. Just wanted to respond to the thread. All my love. flatlander AKA theolegranni Many thanks FL4. I am sure there are many more stories similar in character to your own which have escaped the radar. You could easily have been a murder victim rather than a survivor. I really appreciate you taking your time to provide us with your story. What I find hard to understand, yet it is almost standard in these circumstances, that with that level of abuse the other parent or relatives, even though they know it is going on, turn away as though nothing is happening. Perhaps they are fearful or keen to suppress things in favour of protecting the image of the "only way," or perhaps it is both? I was also interested to read about your Dad taking out his violence on the cow. Years ago I had several meetings with members of SSPCA (Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) who had compiled a lot of information apparently showing a correlation between cruelty to animals and cruelty to children and partners. The reason for the meetings was to show that if a case of animal cruelty came to our notice was to alert us to be on our guard for child and spouse abuse, etc. It seems abuse is not species specific either. I am glad you have recovered well and found the courage to relate your experiences. I also hope your account prompts a few more people to come forward with their experiences of child physical or other abuses so that we can have even a little more enlightenment of the reality of this matter. Whilst it is appreciated your case is now of some antiquity, it demonstrates two things. 1) How a person can appear so nice and loving to the outside world and even to his own family, but in the confined environment of the home can be something monstrously different. I wonder how many of the friends round about and workers knew about your Father's dark side? 2) The need for awareness and unacceptability of all forms of abuse within the church environment.
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Post by quizzer on Aug 7, 2013 10:06:12 GMT -5
theolegrannie, have your living conditions improved since you last posted on TMB?
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theolegranni
New Member
THANK YOU for allowing me to resume my old name... It is DEAR to me... Thanks again. theolegranni
Posts: 47
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 7, 2013 11:05:38 GMT -5
Hi Ram. First of all Thank you for you love and concern..I am grateful to be able to tell someone,my history. I came to realize that due to an undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, my Dad, was probably a victim of Bipolar mental illness. In those days admission of a mental illness was totally unacceptable, and it was implied that the illness was a moral deficiency, rather than a true biological impairment. Thus he drank, his way of self-medication.. pretty typical even in today's world of self-medication. I have fully forgiven my Dad for his behaviors, and forgiven my mother for her abandonment. They did the best that they knew how to do. At the peak's of their lives, they were loving, and caring parents. AND to their credit they did teach me, many many valuable skills that have ultimately led to my freedom from their shadows. Long ago I came to realize that repetition of their behaviors would NEVER happen to my daughter, and I MADE sure that their legacy of abuse and abandonment would not be perpetrated on her life. One additional note for ram, When my daughter was about 4 years old, I was highly tempted to repeat their legacies,,,,, I did not touch her. The next day I went to the Psychology section of a book store and bought and read a tremendous book, written by Alice Miller who was a German psychotherapist, and she explained in her book, just WHY ANYONE AT ANY TIME even thought it was OK to BEAT ANYTHING? ?? She explained that those misinformed early Christians, and Jews believed that the "devil" resided in anything, person, animal,spouse, cow, etc, AND she went on to explain that they had been taught that to get the "devil" out of anything, one had to beat it. Her book was fascinating to me, and totally opened the door in my mind to as the reasons WHY? ? anyone would assume that beating was acceptable. She also mentions in her book, that it was the RARE and exceptional family that DID NOT beat things. Made total sense to me, and I have lived by the basic of that book for my entire life. The name of the book was "For your own Good"... I have been so gifted in my years to have been salvaged and saved from destruction, not by my own feeble attempts, but by the very GRACE of GOD... HE kept me close to Him, and revealed His love for me over and over again. Granted it took me some time to get thru my thick skull just what it was He wanted. All my love theolegranni
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theolegranni
New Member
THANK YOU for allowing me to resume my old name... It is DEAR to me... Thanks again. theolegranni
Posts: 47
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Post by theolegranni on Aug 7, 2013 11:32:37 GMT -5
Hi quizzer,,,,, SO kind of you to remember my living situation... I am so happy to say that that part of my life has made a full 360 degree turn around. Kindly allow me to explain,,, At the time I posted about all of that I was in the middle of some horrific issues. My 2x2, meeting elder,younger sibling owns the house in which I had lived since 2003,,, My life had spun out of control, and in the winter of 2009 I had to have major surgery, pints of blood, etc etc.. I also was started on some serious antidepressants. ALSO at that same time, I had discovered the William Irvine historical aspect of the 2x2's. I had used up all my retirement money, and soon ran out of it... I was unable to pay rent to that brother for over 2 years. He was really really ANGRY at me, and then to top it off, I stopped going to meetings. Needless to say, I was the recipient of total shunning, not only from the folks in meeting, but almost all family. I lived in isolation, fear, and just waiting until my brothers horrible spouse would insist that he kick me to the curb... Fortunately that did not happen, Once I started getting my Social Security and was able to pay rent, his attitude was better, not great but better. HERE IS THE THING that occured that has changed his attitude about me... I fell in love with wonderfully kind, loving and caring man, and after awhile together he moved into the house with me, to help pay bills... HE had a homeless friend that after about 6 months started staying with us. In the course of 2 summers, my partner and his friend, helped my brother totally remodel the outside of this small house... NEW roof line, new roof, totally remodeled bathroom, all new plumbing, all new electrical systems, new insulation, new siding, new porch... Essentially they built a new house. Over that time, my brother became aware that there are loving, caring, and committed folks out there in the BIG BAD world, and those persons, had no restrictions about HELPING him with his huge project. Brother has learned that not ALL persons in the world are out to get him, in some way. I now enjoy a comfortably restored relationship with brother. It was not like it was before, but it is calm, nonthreatening, safe, and loving. With out animosities, or unresolved anger issues. I am safe, comfortable, in a loving, caring home.. My partner, and his friend, and myself, truly enjoy our lives, we volunteer, we help deliver meals, we have a garden, we take turns cooking and cleaning. AND I am so excited to say that I have been mightily BLESSED with an authentic life... No more guilt, for having a glass of wine now and then, no more quilt about my hair cut and perm, no more quilt about jeans, and no more guilt about wearing some rings. I pray daily for my brother and wife, that they may some day come to know the REALLY TRUE LOVE of God. That they would be able to relax, believe in the gift of Jesus, and His resurrection, and hopefully some day be able to enjoy the remainder of their lives. Sorry that this is so long.... I do tend to get wordy.... Thanks again to you for your concern for me.. ALL MY LOVE theolegranni
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 11:39:08 GMT -5
Hi Ram. First of all Thank you for you love and concern..I am grateful to be able to tell someone,my history. I came to realize that due to an undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, my Dad, was probably a victim of Bipolar mental illness. In those days admission of a mental illness was totally unacceptable, and it was implied that the illness was a moral deficiency, rather than a true biological impairment. Thus he drank, his way of self-medication.. pretty typical even in today's world of self-medication. I have fully forgiven my Dad for his behaviors, and forgiven my mother for her abandonment. They did the best that they knew how to do. At the peak's of their lives, they were loving, and caring parents. AND to their credit they did teach me, many many valuable skills that have ultimately led to my freedom from their shadows. Long ago I came to realize that repetition of their behaviors would NEVER happen to my daughter, and I MADE sure that their legacy of abuse and abandonment would not be perpetrated on her life. One additional note for ram, When my daughter was about 4 years old, I was highly tempted to repeat their legacies,,,,, I did not touch her. The next day I went to the Psychology section of a book store and bought and read a tremendous book, written by Alice Miller who was a German psychotherapist, and she explained in her book, just WHY ANYONE AT ANY TIME even thought it was OK to BEAT ANYTHING? ?? She explained that those misinformed early Christians, and Jews believed that the "devil" resided in anything, person, animal,spouse, cow, etc, AND she went on to explain that they had been taught that to get the "devil" out of anything, one had to beat it. Her book was fascinating to me, and totally opened the door in my mind to as the reasons WHY? ? anyone would assume that beating was acceptable. She also mentions in her book, that it was the RARE and exceptional family that DID NOT beat things. Made total sense to me, and I have lived by the basic of that book for my entire life. The name of the book was "For your own Good"... I have been so gifted in my years to have been salvaged and saved from destruction, not by my own feeble attempts, but by the very GRACE of GOD... HE kept me close to Him, and revealed His love for me over and over again. Granted it took me some time to get thru my thick skull just what it was He wanted. All my love theolegranni FL4 I really appreciate your massive contribution here. There are so many angles to your story it is hard to comprehend them all. Your contribution alone has made it very worthwhile for me to have started this thread. It has allowed you to express many things, both good and bad, which co-existed throughout your experiences. I hope you get some comfort through offloading some of your past here. I have no doubt, from what you have told, that your father was suffering from some form of mental disorder, bi-polar or otherwise. This consideration alone shows the need for awareness by others. Education and some preventative precautions would most likely not have been enough to prevent your father from committing the very serious abuses that he did. However, it just might have caused others to see the real dangers and unacceptability in his behaviour and caused them to overcome their own fears or inertia and have done something about it? In my opinion your Father needed to be found out and reported to the relevant authorities, both for the protection of yourself and others, but also to have him face the "necessary" consequences of his behaviour. By this I do not mean punishment, but to have him medically examined so that he could receive the proper treatment. Of course back in those days, this sort of thing was looked upon as bad behaviour without much thought for the perpetrator's mental condition. I have no doubt there are/were a good number of other similar cases out there. Also, attempting to have to live up to the high expectations of the only true way and giving out the impressions that such influences, would only add to your Father's mental state and possibly cause some of his outbursts? You have handled all this extremely well and come through it all with the right loving and forgiving attitude. An example to everyone, that's for sure. I am glad to see that your experiences have enhanced your faith, not detracted from it. Interesting too that you found a lot of pertinent answers in a "worldly book!" What you recounted reminds me of the advice I heard workers give out about how necessary it was to break the will of a child while it was still very young, like a foal. Once the child's will is broken, he or she could be led about like a foal. What utter nonsense, but then we must wonder, just what sort of stuff did your Father listen to? I shudder to think about the effects of that kind of preaching upon a mentally unbalanced mind! Yes, people need to be aware and conditioned to respond to perceived abuses, not ignore them or turn away as though nothing has happened. I am glad to hear things have turned out positively for you, both spiritually and naturally. I'm certain many others have not had similar fates. Nonetheless, I am also certain that God make HUGE allowances for us all (including your Father), in accordance with what he knows our experiences have been and understands us and our actions/reactions. I reckon your thick skull is somewhat more fragile than my own. I am still trying to figure out what it is that God wants from me!
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2013 13:07:25 GMT -5
Hi to all: I am a bit afraid to even post here, but as I understand Ram, he wants some information related to physical abuse with in the 2x2 system. My Dad, (when he was sober) was an Excellent Dad, he taught me to read, WAY before my time, he gave me a love of literature, he gave me a love of nature, he instilled into me a work ethic, he insisted that I love the people of the "truth". Yet my Dad had his demons, he loved his beer, and was frequently drunk. We lived on a farm, that required very long and hard hours. AND it seems that my Dad, had a limit for stress.. When he was stressed he would drink. He was an elder in a Sunday AM meeting as well. It seems to me that with all of the CSA issues, there is a human frailty when it comes to weaknesses. AND for some unknown reason, when my Dad was drunk, he took it out on me. My brother now tells me that I "pushed Dad's buttons"........ Which at the time, I would not have been able to understand at all.. My dear Dad, beat the crap out of me on a routine basis. maybe because I had it coming, by lying to him,but most times it was because I just instinctively knew how to make him mad. One time at about the age of 13-14 I watched as my Dad beat a milk cow, while the cow was NOT able to get away.. The cow was cornered in stanchion. He beat this poor cow with a large 2x4, until the cow fell down in the stanchion. I was watching from the kitchen window, and desperately wished that it was me that he was beating, I AT LEAST had a way to get away from him..I can see the picture excruciatingly CLEAR in my mind as I write this. NOW when I say beat, I mean beat..... NOT a spanking, but a down right, fist, slap, fist, kick in the ribs, kick in the head, beat on the head, BEATING..... A beating that followed me around the kitchen, a beating that made me pee my pants every time.... (how about that for humiliation? ) My mother NEVER ONE TIME stepped in to protect me, she usually figured out some way to avoid the scene. One day, when he was mad at me about something, I don't even remember now why he was pissed, but he yelled at me, went into his bedroom, retrieved his rifle, and emptied the magazine, aimed at me..... Fortunately for me, i was NOT looking at him, when this happened, the ammunition went thru the window at the back of my head. Had I been facing him, I would not be here relating this experience. The secretiveness of the sect, as well as little or no available resources for a kid, in those unenlightened years, all added together to create some serious physical abuse. I never told a single soul about his abuse, my aunts and uncles on both sides of the family were fully aware of the beatings, and they also DID NOTHING..... I asked an uncle one time, just why it was that he did not intervene, and he said this..... "Your Dad didn't hurt you that bad" ALL RIGHTY THEN! That is exactly what my Dad said when I was almost 40 year old and confronted him with his behaviors... I suffered mostly in silence, and had several addictions that I have had to overcome. I was a workaholic, and only ended up damaging myself. I was a nurse for 40 years and knew how to take care of everyone and everything else, EXCEPT myself. I now know how to take care of me first, before anyone else. I thank the Creator everyday for the things I do have. I am in a safe and loving environment, I have cut all of the past loose, and feel very happy with myself now, especially since I am also out of the cult. Just wanted to respond to the thread. All my love. flatlander AKA theolegranni flatlander, so sorry to hear of the abuse you endured! I know about the denial of the adults when confronted. I guess it is a psychological protection on their part. I remember confronting my mom around the same age as you (40 +) about why she didn't intervene in the worst ones. I asked about one time when my father didn't want me to go somewhere with my boyfriend. I was 17 years old. He grabbed me, threw me down on the cement sidewalk and started slamming my head against the cement. My boyfriend had to pull him off me. My mother stood on the front step and watched. When asked, she said "that's not how I remember it, your father was just trying to stop you from hitting your head against the sidewalk". I just stared at her in astonishment that that was how she remembered the event. It really hit home for me just how important it was to not see it as abuse and be in denial. My only response to her was "yes, that's why my boyfriend had to intervene and pull him off me". I never confronted them again. I saw the uselessness of it. I was 'bad' and they were in the right to do whatever 'with love of course' to 'protect me' of course. It's useless to confront them when they are in denial. Like you, I am now in a safe environment and it feels so good! Hugs
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 13:41:25 GMT -5
Thanks Snow. It is really amazing how people do not want to see the reality of a situation and deny what their eyes and ears are telling them. I suppose your Father was just trying to "break your will?" It was very fortunate that he didn't break your neck in his attempts!
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2013 13:56:30 GMT -5
Thanks Snow. It is really amazing how people do not want to see the reality of a situation and deny what their eyes and ears are telling them. I suppose your Father was just trying to "break your will?" It was very fortunate that he didn't break your neck in his attempts! Yes, he did try. Thankfully he never succeeded. However, when I got married, my (ex) husband said he took him aside and told him that he would need to keep a tight rein on me because I was a strong willed woman and needed a firm hand. When I divorced my first husband for physical abuse, my father basically asked me what I had done to deserve it. To my mother's credit, this time she stood by me and supported my divorce.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 14:13:32 GMT -5
Thanks Snow. It is really amazing how people do not want to see the reality of a situation and deny what their eyes and ears are telling them. I suppose your Father was just trying to "break your will?" It was very fortunate that he didn't break your neck in his attempts! Yes, he did try. Thankfully he never succeeded. However, when I got married, my (ex) husband said he took him aside and told him that he would need to keep a tight rein on me because I was a strong willed woman and needed a firm hand. When I divorced my first husband for physical abuse, my father basically asked me what I had done to deserve it. To my mother's credit, this time she stood by me and supported my divorce. Sounds like your Father was trying to justify his own past abuse? All too often those who have suffered abusive upbringings end up in abusive relationships when they grow up.
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2013 15:48:39 GMT -5
Yes, he did try. Thankfully he never succeeded. However, when I got married, my (ex) husband said he took him aside and told him that he would need to keep a tight rein on me because I was a strong willed woman and needed a firm hand. When I divorced my first husband for physical abuse, my father basically asked me what I had done to deserve it. To my mother's credit, this time she stood by me and supported my divorce. Sounds like your Father was trying to justify his own past abuse? All too often those who have suffered abusive upbringings end up in abusive relationships when they grow up. I wondered about that but I don't know. He absolutely adored his father and his birth mother died when he was 4 but he called his step mother a 'saint', so I really don't know. He was very devoted to the belief spare the rod and spoil the child. I think because I quit professing I was considered a disgrace and it somehow reflected on him. I don't know. He loved me I think, just didn't know how to show it. I look back and realize he had some serious misconceptions about women too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 16:12:58 GMT -5
Sounds like your Father was trying to justify his own past abuse? All too often those who have suffered abusive upbringings end up in abusive relationships when they grow up. I wondered about that but I don't know. He absolutely adored his father and his birth mother died when he was 4 but he called his step mother a 'saint', so I really don't know. He was very devoted to the belief spare the rod and spoil the child. I think because I quit professing I was considered a disgrace and it somehow reflected on him. I don't know. He loved me I think, just didn't know how to show it. I look back and realize he had some serious misconceptions about women too. Sorry Snow, I didn't make myself clear. I was thinking of yourself, having gone through all the abuse from your Father, you ended up in an abusive (first) marriage?
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